|
|
Rights, Freedoms and Repression
Blog Feeds
Anti-Empire
The SakerA bird's eye view of the vineyard
Public InquiryInterested in maladministration. Estd. 2005
Voltaire NetworkVoltaire, international edition
|
Irish Ship to Gaza: Turkish investigation of sabotage of MV Saoirse shouldn't be taken at face value international |
rights, freedoms and repression |
other press
 Monday July 04, 2011 17:50 by Kev - IPSC/ISTG
 A comprehensive rebuttal of suggestions that the MV Saoirse was not sabotaged Initial reports suggest that the official Turkish investigation into the sabotage of the Irish ship MV Saoirse that was due to take part in the now Greek-impounded Freedom Flotilla Two will find that “the breakdown of the ship might not be a result of sabotage” and that even if it was sabotaged, it “was damaged before it entered Turkish waters”.[1] However, the Irish Ship To Gaza (ISTG)[2] campaign view such conclusions with deep suspicion. It remains the opinion of the Irish Ship To Gaza campaign that an act of underwater sabotage was conducted against the Irish boat, the MV Saoirse, as it sat in the Turkish port of Göcek. Below we outline in detail our reasons and evidence for believing this to be the case. |
printable version
Digg this
del.icio.us
Furl
Reddit
Technorati
Facebook
Gab
Twitter
|
View Comments Titles Only
save preference
Comments (82 of 82)
Jump To Comment: 82 81 80 79 78 77 76 75 74 73 72 71 70 69 68 67 66 65 64 63 62 61 60 59 58 57 56 55 54 53 52 51 50 49 48 47 46 45 44 43 42 41 40 39 38 37 36 35 34 33 32 31 30 29 28 27 26 25 24 23 22 21 20 19 18 17 16 15 14 13 12 11 10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1I know that. Just wondering if it was overtly displayed or under-the-counter in your supermarket.
I see they've taken to closing theatres now(check the above).
The 'only democracy in the region' goes more theocratically totalitarian by the day.
..were they all produced in kosher fashion in the stolen lands of the West Bank for sale in Gaza, the largest concentration camp in imperial history?
Or should we stick with the AIPAC definition, and just call it a reservation?They have such nice euphemism transAtlantic.
And do they sell the hasbara handbook in that Gaza supermarket, or have you to go to the Tel Aviv library when you need to revise?
Of course Opus D I forgot if you look at these photos carefully you will also see
Aisle 24 Irish , UN and other Passports
Aisles from 10 to 12 Mens and Womens Belts [normal and explosive ]
Aisles from 14 to 20 Rockets and Missiles
besides the Corn Flakes , Bislee ,Chocolate and Homous in Aisles 1 and 2
Does that include phosphorous bombs, predator drones, nuclear warheads, bulldozers for inconvenient women blocking evictions and land-theft and er...Irish passports?
Irish passports are STILL an Israeli export product, Fred, or are they just for internal consumption?
http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com:80/2011/07/bds-fail-at....html
Dreadful - new Gaza Supermarket sells Israeli goods
..are now on Hamas's side..'
Could that have anything to do with the fact their villages are being bulldozed(just like the woman whose name inspired much of the flotilla support)and their land 'reclaimed for development' by Tel Aviv?
Israel keeps on its present track and anybody with any humanity will overtly join Hamas as an expression of disgust at their(Israel's) treatment of anyone who stands in their militarised nuclear-powered and hasbara-lubricated way.
Shalom.
Hamas, Hamas Hamas - mixed in with a little bit of "Everyone not a Zionist is and anti-semite" - 24-7, 365 of the year.
If Hamas want independence to run their own area why do they want open borders with Israel ?
- the Sinai / Egytian option is open to them and they manage to get enough guns and goods from there .
The Sinai Bedouin are now on Hamas' s side and causing havoc with industrial sacle smuggling as the Egyptian Police and Army have disappeared from the area..
Both of your efforts to portray the killer as a lone insane gunman look silly in light of the numerous eyewitness reports of a 2nd gunman.
http://blogs.voanews.com/breaking-news/2011/07/23/norwa...gs-2/
Police already are questioning one suspected gunman, a native Norwegian, but the country's national news agency NTB said Saturday that witnesses on Utoeya island where the attack occurred have told police two people were involved. The man already in custody was disguised as a policeman, wearing a sweater with a police emblem on it, but the witnesses said the second man was not.
Given the obvious logistical difficulties, the earlier bombing is unlikely to have been the work of one man acting on his own. So the 'lone nutter' theory being pushed by the Pro-Zionists seems very suspect indeed.
Of course it suits the Pro-Zionists posting here to propagate the lone-nutter theory because they hope that their precious Zionism, with it's ever-present twin 'Muslim hatred', will not come under the spotlight
Again I'm struck by the tone of the anti-Israel comments. They are not grounded in facts but in pure hatred. Probably someone will try to answer my comment with his/her hatred and a whole load of distortion, but that will only prove my point.
I often wonder why the Irish have become the puppets of Hamas. Maybe it's because Irish people and "Arab underdogs" have something in common - child abuse. The Arab "freedom fighters" celebrate the suicide of their own children and the Irish also have a history of child abuse....Both groups also have a victim mentality and prefer not to be held responsible for their actions. The answer is easy: Blame the Jews (not very original - the blood libel existed even before Hitler!)
Bless me moderator for I have sinned. Although like most sinners I quite enjoyed taking the piss out of that pompous gobshite that keeps changing his name. Lordy, lordy does he seriously think the mossad would be bothered with him. Sorry to inform him that I’m just an auld Irishman and like 99.99 % of this country I couldn’t give a rats arse about Gaza or the rest of the middle east.
Sure I just kept looking for any sort of bollix info to keep him rattled coz he takes himself sooo seriously – The next Prez might give him a medal for being a goddy-goody.
In the words of Gov C. Durning it behoves the Jews and the Ayrabs to settle their differences in a Christian manner (see http://youtu.be/NJG75FJkjr8 )
Getting back to GS he talks and pastes so much shite he should consider running for the dail in the Brian Lenihan by-election and bore the arse of the other half wits of the loony left like Boyd Barret, Flanagan and Higgins and maybe try sort out Irish problems instead of waffling on about supplies in southern Israel (sorry Gaza Strip).
The original post was about them fools that broke their boat – I’d say GS was on that boat and that captain whacked him on the head with that prop shaft.
UN Website: http://unispal.un.org/UNISPAL.nsf/47D4E277B48D9D3685256...B9C43
SUMMARY
Essential Medications:
- Of the 480 medications on the essential drug list, 178 (37%) were reported at zero stock levels in the Ministry of Health’s Gaza Central Drug Store (CDS) at end of May 2011. The CDS supplies the Ministry’s 13 hospitals and 54 primary health care clinics in Gaza.
- While the shortage of essential drugs has been a chronic problem and zero stock levels have increased steadily since 2007 (2007: 14%; 2008: 16%; 2009: 18%; 2010: 24%), the protracted period of low stocks is now deemed critical for the continued delivery of health care.
Essential Supplies:
- Of the 700 medical disposables on the essential list, 190 (27%) were reported at zero stock levels in the CDS-Gaza.
Essential Drugs and Disposables at Zero stock Level, 2011.
1. Zero Stock Drugs:
The categories of drugs at zero stock are: 17% antibiotics for acute infections, 10% for chronic diseases (diabetes, hypertension, cardiac conditions, osteoarthritis, etc.), 9% chemotherapy, 8% analgesics, narcotics and anti inflammatory drugs, 8% psychotherapeutics and anticonvulsants, 7% for blood disorders 6% for ophthalmological disorders, 5% for immunity disorders, 4% antidotes, and others including special milk formulas (5 items), vitamins, solutions and formulas for external application (ointments, creams, etc).
2. Zero Stock Medical Disposables:
The shortages of the 190 medical disposable items include some basic and very critical items such as: syringes, Central Venous Pressure devices, ECG and CTG paper, X-Ray film, gauze, disposables used in laparoscopies, and filtration cartridges used in haemodialysis for patients with kidney failure.
Examples of Impact of Shortages on Health Services
1. The relatively big shortages in drugs and medical disposables have forced hospitals to curtail or stop the following kinds of surgeries:
- Elective surgeries stopped
- Laparoscopic surgeries stopped
- Vascular surgeries stopped (shortage of embelectomy catheter)
- Neurosurgeries stopped (shortage of Gellfoam, and other supplies)
- Spinal vertebrae and joint surgeries stopped (shortage of transpendicular screw, rods, artificial joints)
- Pediatric surgeries (curtailed due to lack of sutures)
- ENT, burns and plastic surgeries stopped at the main Shifa Hospital
2. Referrals to outside hospitals for treatments previously done within Gaza:
- Cancer treatments, and cardiovascular, orthopedic and neurosurgeries.
3. Improvised methods for coping with shortages of medical disposables:
- Re-sterilizing disposable tubes
- Reusing gloves and other disposable items (increasing risk of cross-infections and hospital-acquired infections.
4. Patients at special risk:
-Kidney disease patients:
Rescheduling of 200 patients for haemodialysis at Shifa hospital to machines not requiring filters which are currently unavailable (increasing risk of infections)
Insulin shortages for insulin-dependent patients
Calcium shortages for the 450 patients on haemodialysis in Gaza (shortage for 2 months).
Cellcept (immuno-suppressant) shortages for 100 kidney transplant patients
- Patients requiring adenoviral, an antiviral used to treat hepatitis
- Patients with hypertension (out of stock at primary health care level for past 3 months)
- Patients with blood disorders requiring Factor VIII medication (increases risk of complications)
Since June 2007, Israel has imposed restrictions on the import of goods into the Gaza Strip and has only allowed in goods which it defines as “essential for the basic existence of the population.”
In the years prior to the closure, 10,400 trucks would enter the Gaza Strip per month but since June 2007 Israel has allowed in only 2,500 trucks in per month, carrying just 25% of the goods required by Gaza Strip residents.
Before June 2007, around 4,000 different kinds of goods were imported, but due to the restrictions this number has dropped drastically to less than 40 kinds of goods that have been defined as humanitarian essentials (food, hygiene products, medication, etc.) Israel refuses to supply a list of approved goods and so a list of permitted items has been compiled by Palestinian liaison officials in order to provide guidelines for traders. International organizations are permitted to bring in other kinds of goods, subject to an individual application to the military authorities.
Israel has simultaneously limited the operation of the Gaza Strip crossings: Since June 2007, the Karni crossing, which was the main channel for goods, has been closed, and only one of its conveyer belts, used to transfer produce and animal feed, has been partially operational since then. The Sufa crossing last opened in September 2008 and Israel announced its permanent closure in March 2009. Transfer of goods via the Rafah crossing is prohibited. And so Gaza is now almost totally dependent on the Kerem Shalom crossing, which has a limited capacity.
source for "Graph of Needs vs 'Goods allowed in' , Gaza 2011" is in fact: PalTrade, the Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA) and the Coordination Committee in Gaza
http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/idf-civil-adm...74564
The [Israeli Defense Force] Civil Administration is taking steps to increase state-ownership of West Bank lands, [ i.e.: Steal even more Palestinian land] an internal military document reveals. The policy enables increased construction not only around settlement blocs like Ariel, Ma'aleh Adumim and Gush Etzion, but also in strategic areas like the Jordan Valley and Dead Sea....
The inclusion of the Jordan Valley, northern Dead Sea and area surrounding Ariel in the "settlement blocs" whose takeover the administration is advancing, would prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state with territorial contiguity. In addition, the scope of land in question thwarts the possibility of exchanging areas in a peace settlement, according to the formula presented by U.S. President Barack Obama on May 19.
This is because on the western side of the Green Line there is not enough open land to compensate the Palestinians for such an extensive annexation
A graph produced by the Israeli ministry of defence. showing that, even by their own estimation , Israel is allowing into Gaza less that 50% of the required essential goods
Graph of Needs vs 'Goods allowed in' , Gaza 2011
"Where did I say that Jordan stole the land from Israel?"
Minnie, your little brain appears to be going into melt-down. I'm pretty sure no one said Jordan stole the land from Israel - good thing the Shabbat's almost here, cos you obviously need a bit of break from this - the more comments you post the less sense you are making -- and to be honest you weren't making a lot of sense to start with anyway
Just look at the evolving map of Europe over the centuries - do you think all those borders were discussed over a nice glass of wine?
"
See I know you are permanently stuck in a medieval mindset, but things have moved on a little since then, in the realm of International law, Minnie.
International Law has quite a lot to say on the subject of the acquisition of territory through aggressive military action. I'll give you a hint: It's a bit of a no-no
No matter what Zio-logic you use to justify your illegal actions, Minnie, they're still illegal - the land is still stolen, no matter how you try to justify it.
the Jordanians stole when they annexed it - and you stole it from them - but it's still stolen - it doesn't become yours just because you stole it from the Jordanians. And even your Gov't agrees because they frequently refer to it as 'The Occupied Territories' - so no matter what BS you post here, the land is still stolen.
Oh dear, your ability to read whats not written and not read what is written is amazing. Where did I say that Jordan stole the land from Israel?
If you have a 3 year old child nearby they might explain to you that in wars, throughout the world and throughout time the losers (who this time were the antagonists) tend to lose ground. Just look at the evolving map of Europe over the centuries - do you think all those borders were discussed over a nice glass of wine?
Anyway, must go, the Shabbat rapidly approaches and I've shekels to squander. Chat to you next week, Ciao (pronounced chow by the way)
Minnie, you want to right to dispute Opus' description of Palestinian Territories as 'Occupied' by claiming that Israel somehow just happened to 'win' them in a war.
If you are disputing the description 'Occupied' then obviously you are claiming some 'right' to place troops there and control the land - some 'right' to 'ownership', identical to the Might=Right philosophy espoused by the Nazis.
Which comes as no surprise because Zionism and Nazism were best buddies when the Nazis were in Power
Then you want the right to claim "Oh but we don't really them ".
After all you did say "If they wanted it, it would have been made part of the state of Israel long ago."
But of course the fact that Israeli has slowly been ethnically cleansing those lands for years just show how dishonest and false that statement of yours is. Not only that but Zionists have made countless statements over the decades laying claim to those lands. Many of these statements were made both before and after Israel Occupied the Occupied Palestinian Territories.
Essentially you made a complete dogs-dinner of interpreting your own pathetic logic.
If I were you I'd hope the bosses at Zio-propaganda Headquarters never see this thread. They'll bust yer ass right down to 'Private' if they ever see the complete and utter hames you've made of interpreting your own Nazi-like might=right 'logic'
That's what happens when you go around lying all the time - you get tripped-up by your own lies when you can't remember when and where you told them
"I said annexed by Jordan you introduced annexed = stolen. "
YES - and YOU agreed - - here's what you said "my point exactly" you said
"Annexed = stolen." - you said
Now you want to claim that Israeli has not stolen the land because there is no Palestinian State.
"I never said Israel claimed it – the opposite in fact if you could be bothered to read. "
Oh no you didn't - you can't even keep track of your own nonsense - that's what usually happens when Zionists try to use 'logic'- you disputed Opus when he pointed out that it is 'Occupied'
here's what you said "The territories were lost to Israel in a war in 1967. " you said.
Obviously you were making a point for Israeli right of 'ownership'. - you will of course deny that, but it won't change the fact that that is what you were doing.
When you chose to fight a war and lose, you may just lose territory – its par for the course!"
again obviously expounding further on your 'might=right' Nazi-like Zio-philosophy.
Of course in your stupidity you forgot that if Jordan stole it in the first place, then you can't claim ownership of it, like you just did in that sentence, irrespective of the result of the war.
You're not very bright are you.?
I wouldn't go counting that bonus just yet Minnie.
When your boss at Hasbara-Central sees the mess you've made in this thread, just attempting to follow your own so-called 'Logic' he'll probably dock you pay for making Zionists look even more thick-headed and Nazi, than they looked before you joined in.
Earlier Mini-Mossad thought he'd a brilliantly incisive debating point when he earlier tells me "Annexed = stolen. . .
"Zio-lies to Plain-English" translation for normal people
by @Mini-Mossad Thu Jul 21, 2011 19:46
annexed = stolen
Was that not you Swastika Slave that introduced the phrase? Please try to keep track of the claptrap you’re writing. I said annexed by Jordan you introduced annexed = stolen. I followed by explaining in your own Nazi logic in the hope that you could at least follow your own chain of thought, but that too seems to be way over your head. So I presume the historical piece from EB 1911 just reads like double dutch to you.
The main point I’m saying is Israel had a war (engineered by their good neighbours) in 1967, Jordan foolishly joined in and lost the territory they annexed in 1948 (not from Israel), I never said Israel claimed it – the opposite in fact if you could be bothered to read.
I recommend a early school reader book, before you cut & paste the next bit of howash
Thursday is a great day, I get my paycheque tomorrow, should be good bonuses for making an idiot of a least 1 Nazi, not that thats too difficult anyway, you do a great job of it yourself - thanks, sweet dreams
"the mythical country of Palestine, as such has never existed to have even a square inch stolen from it!"
I love it when Zios try to use logic - it's like watching a train-crash in slow motion.
Earlier Mini-Mossad thought he'd a brilliantly incisive debating point when he earlier tells me "Annexed = stolen. . . . As I said if you were reading correctly Jordan annexed the lands in 1948."
SO he obviosly think that the lands were STOLEN by Jordan when they annexed them in 48.
NOW the poor deluded fool seems to want to be able to maintain, just because he wants to make some stupid point that a 'state of Palestine' never existed, that the very same lands which he admits were 'stolen' when Jordan 'annexed' them in 48, cannot now be labeled 'stolen' (this time by the Zio-nauts,) because "Palestine is not a 'state'"
Are you always this clueless, Minnie, or is it just on Thursdays?
Just for the purposes of clarification-for-the-utterly-gormless: The phrase "Palestinian territory" refers to land belonging to Palestinians.
swastika slave can't be alluding to to the mythical country of Palestine, (or Canaan, Greater Israel, Greater Syria, the Holy Land, Iudaea Province, Judea, Israel, Kingdom of Israel, Kingdom of Jerusalem, Land of Israel (Eretz Yisrael or Ha'aretz), Zion, Retenu (Ancient Egyptian), Southern Syria, and Syria Palestina as it has been known) as such has never existed to have even a square inch stolen from it!
According to the Encyclopædia Britannica Eleventh Edition (1911), [1] Palestine is:
"[A] geographical name of rather loose application. Etymological strictness would require it to denote exclusively the narrow strip of coast-land once occupied by the Philistines, from whose name it is derived. It is, however, conventionally used as a name for the territory which, in the Old Testament, is claimed as the inheritance of the pre-exilic Hebrews; thus it may be said generally to denote the southern third of the province of Syria.
Except in the west, where the country is bordered by the Mediterranean Sea, the limit of this territory cannot be laid down on the map as a definite line. The modern subdivisions under the jurisdiction of the Ottoman Empire are in no sense conterminous with those of antiquity, and hence do not afford a boundary by which Palestine can be separated exactly from the rest of Syria in the north, or from the Sinaitic and Arabian deserts in the south and east; nor are the records of ancient boundaries sufficiently full and definite to make possible the complete demarcation of the country. Even the convention above referred to is inexact: it includes the Philistine territory, claimed but never settled by the Hebrews, and excludes the outlying parts of the large area claimed in Num. xxxiv. as the Hebrew possession (from the " River of Egypt " to Hamath). However, the Hebrews themselves have preserved, in the proverbial expression " from Dan to Beersheba " (Judg. xx.i, &c.), an indication of the normal north-and-south limits of their land; and in defining the area of the country under discussion it is this indication which is generally followed.
Taking as a guide the natural features most nearly corresponding to these outlying points, we may describe Palestine as the strip of land extending along the eastern shore of the Mediterranean Sea from the mouth of the Litany or Kasimiya River (33° 20' N.) southward to the mouth of the Wadi Ghuzza; the latter joins the sea in 31° 28' N., a short distance south of Gaza, and runs thence in a south-easterly direction so as to include on its northern side the site of Beersheba. Eastward there is no such definite border. The River Jordan, it is true, marks a line of delimitation between Western and Eastern Palestine; but it is practically impossible to say where the latter ends and the Arabian desert begins. Perhaps the line of the pilgrim road from Damascus to Mecca is the most convenient possible boundary. The total length of the region is about 140 m (459.32 ft); its breadth west of the Jordan ranges from about 23 m (75.46 ft) in the north to about 80 m (262.47 ft) in the south."
If they wanted it, it would have been made part of the state of Israel long ago.
Given that they've been slowly Ethnically Cleansing it for years now, their actions show your words to be the lies that they are.
As was pointed out earlier - one of the enduring characteristics of a Zionist is loud proclamations that you childishly demand be accepted as factual, without a shred of evidence of any kind to substantiate them.
There is plenty of evidence in the historical record that the Zionists have always coveted the land of the West Bank. That is after all why they have repeatedly engineered wars in order to help them justify stealing that which does not belong to them.
One can clearly see the strains of the NAZI ideology clearly woven through your thought processes - not surprisoign really since the Zionist and the Nazis were best buddies -
Thank you swastika slave, my point exactly
Annexed = stolen.
As I said if you were reading correctly Jordan annexed the lands in 1948. Israel gave them every opportunity to stay out of the 1967 war and instead they overestimated their own “might” and they chose to enter the war (probably hoping to annex another little plot of land) and in the process they lost themselves a lot of territory the Israel never even wanted or claimed. If they wanted it, it would have been made part of the state of Israel long ago.
Territory gained in a war is not always wanted or claimed by the victor.
Is that black and white enough for you or did your mind imagine the word Nazi in there again.
Minnie, irrespective of the dubious 'logic' displayed in your latest comments, by simple virtue of the fact that the Israeli gov't has never officially annexed the West Bank, they themselves acknowledge that the land does not belong to them. So all land currently illegally forcibly occupied by Israelis in Palestinian territory is without doubt the result of theft
even if the Israelis illegally 'annexed' (stole) the land - it would still be stolen land. It would still be an illegal act according to all relevant sections of International Law covering such actions.
Putting forward a "Might=Right" justification for such illegal acts only makes you look more like a NAZI than you did before
annexed = stolen
Mini-Mossad, in his comment above, seems to think that the land stolen by Israel now belongs to Israel,
it seems clear that he also has little problem the continuing War Crimes of Ethnic Cleansing currently being carried out by the Israelis
If the only people that support Israel are in favor of war crimes it rather speaks somewhat to the character of the Israeli state and it's supporters
Mini-Mossad appears to think that only might makes right. Rather like the Nazis did.
Ah, what a selective view, The OCCUPIED West Bank? Actually the territories of the west bank of the Jordan river were west of the armistice line (not border) between Jordan and Israel at the end of the 1948 Arab/Israeli war and were annexed (like that word swastika slave) by Jordan at that time.
The territories were lost to Israel in a war in 1967. Jordan did NOT have to join this conflict but chose to do so.
When you chose to fight a war and lose, you may just lose territory – its par for the course!
This may be of more interest to you.
http://youtu.be/XGYxLWUKwWo
No Opie, Timmy is definitely lying.
He may also be completely delusional - the two are not mutually exclusive in any way.
And Timmy Johnston knows he's lying.
The proof is his strenuous avoidance of the request to provide proof for his statement that
1) the Israelis have not as far as I know made any such claim
2) I have provided no quotes where they made any such claim
3) Even if they did make such a claim, it would still only be a claim, not proof of their actual intentions.
4) Timmy has refused to provide proof that they ever made any such claim, despite being requested for such proof if it exists
And even if they ever actually did make such a claim, In order for any such claim to be regarded as constituting actual 'proof', they also would have to produce policy documents to back up any such claim on their part. Thus far they have not.
Such documents, drawn up before the illegal blockade took effect or at approx the same time as they drew up the documents where they callously calculated the minimum calorific requirements of the civilian population, would have to show that they were taking active measures to ensure that the daily minimum requirements were being adequately supplied.
Thus far the Israelis have claimed, in relation to policy documents regarding the illegal blockade, that
We also have verbal statements to the press, from UNRWA representatives, which clearly indicate that, in the opinion of those UNRWA representatives, rather than taking active measures to ensure that the daily minimum requirements were being adequately supplied, the Israelis have in fact done the exact opposite. They appear to have taken active measures to ensure that the daily minimum requirements were NOT being adequately supplied
Thus any statements by Timmy Johnston that the Israelis were trying to ensure that Gazans do not starve, is clearly contradicted by the evidence freely available at the links provided by me.
Any statements by Timmy Johnston to the contrary are quite clearly nothing but lies.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=25606
I think he has gone beyond lying.
He actually believes the propaganda. Not uncommon, lots of Southern State racists and verkrampte Afrikaners, just like the Aryan myth-buyers, swallow their programs to the extent they are not actually lying, just convinced by the bullshit and too entrenched to question it.
I think you should think of it more as a delusional state than a conscious lie. I may be wrong, but it helps me keep the perspective. Keep the cool, they like to raise temperatures. Heat suits them more than light does.
You've managed to make 'facts' that make it clear Israel does NOT try to starve Gazans into an interpretation that says they are
You have provided no 'facts' here, Timmy. None
You Zionists never do though. That is one of the enduring characteristics of a Zionist - loud proclamations that you childishly demand be accepted as factual, without a shred of evidence of any kind to substantiate them.
Then when your obvious lies are exposed as lies, you lot usually throw a little tantrum and scream 'Anti-Semite!" - it's a fairly obvious M.O. by now, Timmy
You ain't fooling anyone with your little theatrics anymore, TImmy
Timmy - numerous times now you have falsely claimed "The Israelis are taking measures to ensure the Gazans DO NOT starve"
Nowhere in any of the links provided by me did the Israelis EVER make the claim that they drew up that document "to ensure the Gazans DO NOT starve"
there is not one jot of evidence to support this claim on your part - none. In none of the links provided have the Israelis made any such claim.
You have been asked to provide proof for this claim of yours. You refuse to do so.
Your refusal to acknowledge that, just highlights the tendency of you Zionists to repeatedly lie at will.
It is a claim you have fabricated from thin air - a blatant lie in other words.
If you don't like your fabricated claims being called lies then stop fabricating lies. Simply Stop Lying, TImmy
Would that be the OCCUPIED West bank?
I don't know if you think repeating the same old lies makes it look more true, but you're going to have to come up with some better 'facts' if you want to be taken seriously. You might not even want to be taken seriously if you can't even think up a pseudonym, so I think the above poster's suggestion of Swastika Slave sounds good for you, and I might just stick with it seeing as you haven't the common courtesy to use other posters' names correctly.
You've managed to make 'facts' that make it clear Israel does NOT try to starve Gazans into an interpretation that says they are - Stalin himself would be proud.
On the positive side, I read today that the economy of the West Bank is growing faster than Israel's which is good news for everyone. Maybe Gaza can follow suit. After all, there are five more densely populated nations on this earth and all are doing very well.
for the information of the swastika slave, is quite normal during war. Your Nazi friends in Germany hardly had a thriving trade with Britain during WW2. But this case is different, The State of Israel actually supplies food to the people whose terrorist leaders would like to see the State of Israel obliterated.
Rather unlike your Nazis did to the inmates of the concentration camps.
The Director of NGO-Monitor jointly prepared with the Institute for Zionist Strategies, headed by Israel Harel, co-founder of the fundamentalist Gush Emunim (Bloc of the Faithful), a militant pro-settlement group, wanting Palestinians dispossessed to provide more land for Jews.
Intelligent people will draw the correct conclusions from NGO-Monitor Directors collaborative efforts with extreme right-wing racist Settler groups.
Unintelligent or dishonesty people will draw different conclusions I guess.
But all of this is OT - It still won't change the FACT that the Israeli Gov't has used the Gaza blockade to deliberately keep the civilian population close to starvation - just like the Nazis did to the inmates of the concentration camps.
Why would anyone believe your view and your agenda only, if you can say NGO Monitor is is a Zionist Racist organization and someone else with a different opinion cannot say the same about you and the organizations you support and push down everybodys throat.
That is not your "Nazi" way, that it the spoilt child way of conducting an argument.
As you like the childish way, I'll give 100 shekels from my mossad pay off to any one that can give you a good nickname as you cant think up one of your own.
Lets get the ball rolling.. mmm Swastika Slave or maybe the Shouting Sheik
Why can't Zionists just make comments without lies in them?
Referring to Gisha.. in such glowing terms, yes, you and their own website make them out to be candidates for sainthood.
No one referred to Gisha in 'glowing terms' - the only reference I have made to Gisha is that they brought and won a case in the Israeli supreme Court
I notice, that in your attempts to smear Gisha you link to NGO-Monitor.
Referring to NGO-Monitor without mentioning that they are nothing but a Zionist propaganda-front , is just plain dishonest.
http://warisacrime.org/content/ngo-monitor-targets-trut...srael
but irrespective of what Gisha is or is not, or what NGO-Monitor is or is not, it Still won't change the FACT that the Israeli Gov't has used the Gazablockade to deliberately keep the civilian population close to starvation - just like the Nazis did to the inmates of the concentration camps.
.. in such glowing terms, yes, you and their own website make them out to be candidates for sainthood. However, the readers might like another view (the truth in other words) so read this report and you'll see the real agenda! Best wishes.
http://www.ngo-monitor.org/article/gisha
In the court case brought by the Israeli NGO Gisha, which demanded that the government reveal the criteria behind its siege policy including what products were forbidden and why, the Zionist government came up with this ingenious justification for opacity:
So it is clear to any Non-Zio-racist (obviously that would exclude you, Timmy) that the Israeli Gov't knows damn well what it's own intentions were, when it came to calculating the minimum requirements of the Gazan civilian population.
Given that the Israeli gov't claims that releasing info about those intentions would “damage national security and harm foreign relations” those intentions do not appear to have included the well-being of the civilian population of Gaza.
"The Israelis claim - according to the quotes YOU provided - to be taking measures to ensure the Gazans DO NOT starve"
No where in any of the links provided by me did the Israelis EVER claim that they drew up that document "to ensure the Gazans DO NOT starve"
That is just something you made up out of thin air, Timmy. a complete fabrication by you, timmy.
What is it with you Zionists and your constant lying?
- You couldn't even put one post up here without a blatant lie in it?
"Are we all Nazis too?"
No Timmy - just you and your fellow Zionists
Are you, mystery poster, claiming that the blockade of Gaza is designed to make Gazans hungry?
No Timmy - it IS however ONE of the reasons.
Anyone with even half-a-brain and an once of honesty can see that the blockade is primarily designed by the Israelis to make life as difficult as possible for the Gazan civilians. Various statements from many Zionist luminaries attest to this aim. Keeping them close to near-starvation is but one tactic in this
"And this based on the comments (oft repeated as they may be) of one government representative?"
No Timmy - that 'one government representative[s]' statement was just the one I happened to choose of the many I could have chosen.
whether you agree or not TImmy is immaterial but it is plain that the blockade is an act of collective punishment of a civilian population and is therefore illegal under International Law. Irrespective of whatever lies Israel chooses to voice as justification for it's illegal act of Collective punishment - it is still quite plainly and illegal act of collective punishment of a civilian population - and has been rightly deemed to be so by virtually every international organisation of any standing which has voiced an opinion on the subject.
"Because that's your claim isn't it? that the Israeli government wants to starve people in Gaza, and your proof is one document and some quotes which are about making sure they don't starve? If I'm misrepresenting you, please say so. I wouldn't want to be called a liar or anything."
No Timmy - MY claim is that it is plain to see that the Israeli gov't has been attempting to keep the Gazan population close to starvation. - Just like the NAZIS did to the camp inmates when they operated the Concentration Camps.
How you seem to misunderstand my claim is curious since it has been clearly stated in plain English a number of times now - you really need to improve you english comprehension abilities if you going to come here and pretend to be some sort of Legal Bigwig addressing the court of Public Opinion.
And the proof offered was not merely 'one document' as you dishonestly state - there were also several statement by Officials of International Organisations legally mandated to help ensure that the Gazan civilian populations does not starve outright (because presumably the International community does not trust the Israelis to ensure that the civilian population does not starve) regarding the actions of the Israelis and the effect they were clearly having on the civilian population of Gaza.
For example John Ging UNRWA representitive stated
Mr Ging clearly laid the blame for his Legally mandated relief organisation being "unable to provide more than 61 per cent of the necessary calories to refugees." at the feet of the Israeli Gov't.
Also - http://unispal.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/B014BA99019C1E09852...4E5CD
To any Non-Zio-racist, (obviously that would exclude you, Timmy) it is clear from Mr Guinness' statement that Israel deliberately closed "the only commercial crossing with the facilities to allow large numbers of trucks to enter Gaza" - thus it is also clear that Israel DELIBERATELY sought to DELIBERATELY severely limit the flow of essential supplies to the civilian population.
This is a clear breach of the Geneva conventions concerning such matters as the indisputable LEGAL duties of a belligerent aggressor, in this case Israel, regarding the well-being of civilian populations in time of military aggression.
Irrespective of any reasons put forward by the Israelis for the blockade, Israel, and Israel alone, bears full responsibility for this, since Israel controlled the influx of essential goods, such as food.
Again had you bothered to read ANY of the links you would have been able to read those reports - but of course you didn't bother
When the Israeli document concerning minimum calorific requirements of the civilian population, with the accompanying court -statement is taken in conjunction with the related statements regarding the effect of DELIBERATE closures of crossing points by the Israeli Gov't , it is clear, to any Non-Zio-racist (obviously that would exclude you, Timmy), that the Israeli Gov't deliberately sought to reduce the flow of essential supplies, especially food-supplies, to below what was needed to meet the daily requirements of the Gazan civilian population.
The Israeli Gov't already knew what the minimum daily calorific requirement of the civilian population were, Timmy, since they had already calculated those requirements.
It is clear to any Non-Zio-racist (obviously that would exclude you, Timmy), that the deliberate closures of crossing points for essential food-supplies reduced the food supply to below required levels.
It is clear to any Non-Zio-racist (obviously that would exclude you, Timmy) that the Israelis had already considered the effect such closures would have on the minimum required food supply, since they had already calculated what those requirement were, yet they went ahead and restricted the food supply so that it was below minimum requirements
It is clear to any Non-Zio-racist (obviously that would exclude you, Timmy) that since the Israel gov't already knew the minimum requirement and that since the Israeli Gov't went ahead and deliberately reduced the food supply to blow the minimum requirements, and that the Israeli Gov't clearly stated that that the purpose of calculating the minimum requirement was so that they could know when and how to reduce food supply BELOW those minimum requirements.
It is also clear to any Non-Zio-racist (obviously that would exclude you, Timmy) that all such actions by Israel constitute an act of Collective punishment of the civilian Population, and a clear breach of the legal obligations of Military aggressor concerning their obligations to civilian populations, as specified in the 4th Geneva Convention.
It is also clear to any Non-Zio-racist (obviously that would exclude you, Timmy) that in this regard Israel is clearly guilty of War crimes
It is also clear to any Non-Zio-racist (obviously that would exclude you, Timmy) that Israel has used the blockade to deliberately keep the civilian population close to starvation - just like the Nazis did to the inmates of the concentration camps.
.. to reply to someone who isn't even bright enough to come up with a pseudonym (it could be more than one person, who knows?), and I wouldn't bother but I don't like being slandered and am grateful as always to be allowed to defend myself, or at least my words.
Are you, mystery poster, claiming that the blockade of Gaza is designed to make Gazans hungry? And this based on the comments (oft repeated as they may be) of one government representative?
So, your claim is, that the Israeli government blockades Gaza to keep them short of food - nothing to do with rocket attacks or anything like that?
The Israelis claim - according to the quotes YOU provided - to be taking measures to ensure the Gazans DO NOT starve, and because one makes an unfortunate crack about going to the dietitian, you have concluded that this is the sole purpose of the blockade?
Your other quote:
“The limitation on the transfer of goods is a central pillar in the means at the disposal of the State of Israel in the armed conflict between it and Hamas.”
doesn't specifically mention food or have anything to do with nutrition (in fact it just describes what a blockade is) and yet you consider this as further 'proof' of some attempt to - what? - starve the Gazans?
Because that's your claim isn't it? that the Israeli government wants to starve people in Gaza, and your proof is one document and some quotes which are about making sure they don't starve? If I'm misrepresenting you, please say so. I wouldn't want to be called a liar or anything.
And before you launch into another diatribe again, you weren't presenting any "facts" that were dismissed as antisemitic - you made an outrageous comparison of Israel to the Nazis based on tenuous evidence (at best).
You decry those as "liars" who refute your claim that:
"both the Israeli Gov't and the Nazis enagge in exactly the same practices" (sic),
Well, the Nazis also banned smoking in public buildings - just like the Irish government does!!
Are we all Nazis too?
you're right there.
It does seem stupid, facile, derivative and puerile.
Same as it did the last time you referred me to it.
And Wolfhound, further to that 'well founded paranoia'...the Jewish people do have a history of persecution and collective exclusion.
A well founded fear of its repetition in renewed pogroms has been manipulated into a paranoid hatred of the peoples they displaced to set up the Zionist-driven colony so many Jews opposed and foretold would be disasterous. Hope that clears things.
Quite easily.
There are legitimate reasons for fear(it is a necessary biological protective warning system, consider the child who does not fear fire).
It becomes paranoia when it goes pathological and results in exaggerated generalisations. Fire is useful when treated with due respect.
Opus Diabolus:-
How can " paranoia " be "well founded " ?
Binyamin, no matter what nonsense you continue to post, it will not detract from the FACT that you are utterly unable to point out any deliberate falsehood on the part of Al J or the BBC in the linked-to reports.
This is curious since it was you that earlier blathered on so pompously (and dishonestly, it now seems) about 'FACTS'. Yet when asked to produce 'facts' you are utterly unable to do so, preferring instead to try and change the subject.
You are the usual sort of lying Zionist bullshitter we see so often here.
Like I said earlier - if you Zionist racists don't like poeple (accurately) comparing your actions to those of the NAZIS it would probably be more productive if, instead of whinging about it and having silly little tantrums like the one you had in your pictorial post above where you chose to rant about Hamas, you decided to just stop behaving like NAZIS.
That way, people would not have any grounds for comparing your actions to those of the Nazis, like they have now. Simples, really, if you stop to think about it - but I notice that, like FACTS, Zionism and self-reflection are complete strangers to each other
Binyamin, I notice that so far you have been utterly unable to specifically state any falsehoods in either the BBC report or the Al Jazeera report relating to the charge that the Israeli Gov't quite clearly intended to create for Gazan civilians a situation where they clearly did not have enough food to maintain a healthy diet.
. . . . Just like the Nazis did when they ran the Concentration Camps.
So despite all your guff about 'facts' it seems all you are able to provide is some blather about Hamas, in an attempt to distract from the accurate BBC and Al Jazeera reports concerning The Israeli Gov'ts deliberate intention to use food-supply as a weapon against Gazan civilians.
. . . . Just like the Nazis did when they ran the Concentration Camps.
As stated earlier, anyone familiar with international law knows that such deliberate actions by the Israeli Gov't indisputably constitute a Crime against humanity - in other words: a War Crime.
. . . . Just like the Nazis did when they ran the Concentration Camps.
Despite his earlier guff about 'facts' Binyamin is still strenuously avoiding dealing with any.
It is clear that he has no specific FACTS which he is able to bring to bear in order to bolster his contention that in this matter both the BBC and Al J are for some reason not to be trusted.
That Binyamin is completely unable to list anything specific inaccuracies in either the BBC article or the Al J article should come as a surprise to no one since, as I said earlier - Zionists are essentially allergic to 'facts' since any time they are confined to being factual they find it impossible to spread their lies.
Given his obvious reluctance to deal with specific or facts it is quite clear that Binyamin itself is the one not to be trusted
"'..when you are an anti-semitic you dont have to bother with getting facts right....'"
So far Binyamin and Tim Johnston have managed to avoid any actual discussion of 'facts' -- all they have offered are fact-free rants against opponents of Zionist aggression.
This is not surprising since 'Factual Statements' and 'Zionism' are generally mutually exclusive - Zionists are essentially allergic to 'facts' since any time they are confined to being factual they find it impossible to spread their lies
'..when you are an anti-semitic you dont have to bother with getting facts right....'
Well said Bin. Question for you as you dismiss BBC, al Jazeera, et al who voice the slightest critique of your utopian, egalitarian, democratic, zionist dreamland....would you be prepared to concede the Oxford English Reference Dictionary a say in the acceptable use of the English language?
If so(and I know its a long shot for the hasbara spoon-benders)you will find Semite defined as '..including the Jews, Arabs, Assyrians, Babylonians and Phoenicians..'.
That would include the Palestinian people so(for English speakers, at least).
My charge is that by ethnically cleansing and persecuting the Palestinian people, the Israeli state is collectively guilty of anti-semitism. Your term. That would seem to explain(given your statement regarding adherence to 'facts', other than those being bloodily created 'on the ground')the increasing addiction of Israeli apologists to distortion in defence of the indefensible.
RSVP. Shalom in the meantime.
"are you really asking people to believe the BBC - is that not just part of the fourth estate controlled by the hideous Jews?"
that seems to be a pretty stupid statement to make, Binyamin.
Perhaps you might care to clearly state why people here should consider the BBC to be, as you put it, "part of the fourth estate controlled by the hideous Jews?""
And if Jews are so hideous, as you appear to think they are, since you are they only one here who has stated such a thing, why then would you join the liar TIm in his attempt to misuse the claim of Anti-semitism when someone dares to point to that both the Israeli Gov't and the Nazis enagge in exactly the same practices?
"as for Al Jazeera, well enough said"
again binyamin, it might look less stupid if you were to state specifically what you find objectionable, what falsehoods you have discovered in the Al J article linked to.
If or when you do decide to point out obvious falsehoods in the Al J coverage do please try and provide some proof, somehting besides the opinion of some proven Zionist liar like yourself or Tim, that what Al J has reported is false.
Personally i suspect, that like Tim, you never even bothered to read what either the BBC report said nor what the Al J report said.
"surprisingly enough I can read and draw my own conclusions!"
well actually Binyamin . . . that is something you have yet to demonstrate. Simply stating it won't make it magically come true
You've really got your knickers in a twist now, take a few deep breaths, are you really asking people to believe the BBC - is that not just part of the fourth estate controlled by the hideous Jews? as for Al Jazeera, well enough said. No need to type in bold or capitals - surprisingly enough I can read and draw my own conclusions!
I suggest you lighten up and go out more often or join the next flotilla and solve the world problems yourself!
Tim Johnston, Zionist-racist said
"And only a fool would use an Israeli document concerned with NOT allowing Gazans to starve as evidence of their evilness"
Timmy, only a fool would post a lie like that without first having read the linked-to article. The BBC article - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8654337.stm - clearly states, about the Israeli Gov't document in question:
So the Israeli Gov't themselves quite clearly printed those words in bold, in order to emphasis their deliberate intention to use food-supply as a weapon against Gazan civilians. Anyone familiar with international law knows that such deliberate actions indisputably constitute a Crime against humanity - in other words: a War Crime.
So there can be no question that the Israeli Gov't, was "concerned with NOT allowing Gazans to starve" as you dishonestly claim, but rather quite clearly intended to create for Gazan civilians a situation where they clearly did not have enough food to maintain a healthy diet.
. . . . Just like the Nazis did when they ran the Concentration Camps.
Thanks to both
for allowing me the opportunity to once again point out how you are
and also thank you for once again demonstrating for all concerned how Zionist racist liars like yourself like to use false claims of Anti-Semitism to help provide a smokescreen for the heinous actions of the Zionist state when it comes to subjugating the original inhabitants of the land that they have stolen
You guys are pretty excellent to come here and demonstrate repeatedly the cheap low-down dishonesty tactics practiced by Zionist liars all over the internet.
Cheers for that
Here's the proof, of your pathetic lies: http://www.richardsilverstein.com/tikun_olam/tag/puttin...diet/
"Several years ago, when Ariel Sharon was prime minister, his main advisor, Dov Weisglass “jokingly” said that Israel’s siege was intended to put Gazans on a diet:
Yes, it was macabre, but typical of the callousness and gallows humor Israeli leaders like to employ when dealing with Palestinians.
Little did we know that the IDF actually does maintain a formerly secret document about how many calories it takes to maintain Gazans on the near edge of malnutrition - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8654337.stm -
And in case you were wondering, the Gaza siege and such a dietary plan are play a major role in maintaining the security of the State of Israel:
You lying racists OBVIOUSLY didn't read the BBC report I linked to earlier which clearly states, about the above quoteed paragraph
Perhaps if you actually took the time to confirm whether or not what I posted was correct, before you stupidly decided to start ranting about Anti-Semitism you wouldn't now look like such obvious liars/
But you didn't take the time, did you?
You just decided to immediately scream 'ANTI-SEMITE!!' hoping it might drown out the sheer horror of what the Israeli Gov't planned for Gazan Civilians - allowing just barely enough food in so that they didn't die, but not enough to allow them to be considered 'Healthy'.
It's common knowledge that the Nazis did exactly the same thing in regard to concentration Camp inmates.
You can deny it if you want, and I'll continue to point out that you are a pair of liars motivated by your racist beliefs in Jewish racial supremacy, known also as 'Zionism'
Just a thought . . . . but . . . . if you Zio-racists find comparison to Nazis to be objectionable, perhaps you Zionists should not go around behaving exactly like the Nazis did when they ran the Concentration Camps.
Thank you Tim, he/she is in such a hate filled rush to seethe back, they must confuse me with Israeli PM Binyamin. When you are an anti-semitic you dont have to bother with gettings facts right - let alone peoples names!
Only the truly insane and/or hate-filled could draw such a comparison based on such slender evidence, and could only do so were they predisposed towards making the Nazi comparison in the first place. And only a fool would use an Israeli document concerned with NOT allowing Gazans to starve as evidence of their evilness. If you want to go so far off-topic and spread your antiSemitic hatred, you'll fine there will always be decent people around to register their objections.
An Israeli government document - See: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8654337.stm & http://english.aljazeera.net/focus/2010/08/201089753194....html - released as a result of lawsuit in 2010 and entitled "Food Consumption in the Gaza Strip - Red Lines" - http://gisha.org/index.php?intLanguage=2&intItemId=1991...N=113 - meticulously details the minimum caloric intake required, based on age and sex, to keep Gazans hovering just above malnutrition levels, and specifies the corresponding grams and calories of each type of food allowed into Gaza."
It should be noted that the NAZIS carried out EXACTLY the same sort of calorific calculations in respect to the minimum requirements of Concentration Camp inmates
In 2007, Gaza's UNRWA Operations Director John Ging - http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/un-....html - stated that "the entire civilian population in Gaza" was subject to "human suffering and misery" and said his agency was "unable to provide more than 61 per cent of the necessary calories to refugees." - http://unispal.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/B014BA99019C1E09852...4E5CD - According to the Palestinian Central Bureau of Statistics, (http://www.pcbs.gov.ps/Default.aspx?tabID=1&lang=en) "between 2007 and 2009 the caloric intake per capita in Gaza and the West Bank decreased by 18 percent."
So congratulations to Israeli Zionist propaganda merchant Binyamin for helping to highlight the fact that the Israeli Gov't is doing to Palestinians in Gaza EXACTLY what the NAZIS did to Jews (and many others) in Nazi Concentration Camps slightly over 65 yrs ago
..be a little truth in there somewhere. Like the fact on the ground that the Gazan people are dependent in their own land on inadequate aid from the same state that dispossesses them. Steal their land and give them a peanut, in the name of divine justice no doubt.
There might also be a major distortion of the mentalities of the people who are trying to 'provoke' Israel into seeing the parallels between their treatment of Palestinians(aided by the blind eye of the EU and AIPAC funded US political lobbyists)and the treatment of that other semitic people, the Jews back in the thirties. From the Warsaw to Gaza, with a change of flags and personell, and rotation of positions. Same ethnic cleansing.
But keep pushing the hasbara, we can use it as an educational tool as to Israel's pathetic ethical posturings.
Shalom.
..in this video
http://youtu.be/RFoFMfstZJI
Ta to wageslave for the checkback. Signing yourself 'Wise Man' aint too wise, more like the delusion of a wise guy. Nor do we all respond to ambush as rats, so dont go tarring us all with your own feather.
As for the Turkish investigation, the price of liberty remains unchanged, it still requires eternal vigilance. Nothing can be taken at face value, especially given the machinations and long arm of the law of the totalitarian market. If they own our democracy(or at least enough to ensure blatant crimes are not challenged)why would they not control and manipulate Turkey's?Through AIPAC it seems they pretty well dominate the American system, though some would say its a symbiotic relationship.
Last word for wise-guy, on that 'warfare always brings out nastiness'.
War is the underlying economics by other means, therefore it is the emergence of the nasties(nazis??lower case) from their velvet gloves.
[ topic is: ]
"Irish Ship to Gaza: Turkish investigation of sabotage of MV Saoirse shouldn't be taken at face value"
[ please at least try to stay somewhat on topic! ]
[ wageslave ]
"It like owning a gun, to be used only when someone threatens your life. Throwing out the gun would put you in danger, and keeping the gun harms no one. Thus, keeping it is the best option."
since the Iranians are under constant threat of bombardment from both the US and Israel a Nuclear Weapons would be the most sensible addition to their list of available weapons - thank you Emma for siding with the Mullahs of Iran -
See?
you Zionists and the Mullahs of Iran have more in common than you'd think, if you only read headlines -
Put it on the shopping list. 1 ICBM, strictly to deter burglars, muggers and dirty looks.
Emma, you are joking?
All the Israeli program does is raise the paranoia level in the region, and drive others to deter Israel's aggressions.Which becomes cyclic and escalational. Not smart. Thats why even the practitioners reckoned the acronym MAD(mutually assured destruction)fitted the policy.Sooner or later, a false alarm triggers a false response.
And if its sauce for the Israeli goose, how do you deny the Iranian gander?
re: the nuke issue
Israel hasn't used its nuclear weapons, although it has had opportunity to do so. Thus, she is truly holding the nukes as a form of self defense, if necessary in a dire situation. This deterrence measure is necessary. Why get rid of the weapons when she has been responsible with them and clearly would only use them as a case of last resort?
It like owning a gun, to be used only when someone threatens your life. Throwing out the gun would put you in danger, and keeping the gun harms no one. Thus, keeping it is the best option.
..but now we are clarified, back at the nuclear arsenal and its tendency to elevate the likelihood of provocation.
Do you not think it might be in Israel's interests, especially as its hasbara and beligerence advance from comical to grotesque, to show a snippet of good faith and support international efforts to internationalise these issues, rather than cultivate multiple unilateralisms?
That question cannot be withdrawn. It ticks towards midnight. I reckon we owe it to our kids not to pretend its an egg-timer.
You would clasify yourself among the adults, I take it?
Shalom.
a) You'll come across as less demented if you don't accuse someone of being obsessed with racial classification and then launch into a diatribe about... racial classification.
and b) why are you calling me a Zionist exactly?
And thirdly, the notion that Jewish Ashkenazi people are descended from Khazars is no more factual than that the Irish are descended from the lost tribes of Israel, and it's pretty much a racist slur too. The "genetics" you refer to (but clearly know nothing about) confirm that Jews are light on the Turkic, heavy on the Semitic, by the way.
Dehumanising Jewish people by claiming they're not an ethnicity is racism of the highest order, particularly in the light of your uncritically referring to Palestinians as 'indigenous'. Are you as interested in their genetic makeup and settlement history then?
And you seem quite happy to suggest that Zionists are "racist" while simultaneously saying they're not a race. Which is it?
Finally, why don't you ask the people themselves whether they're an ethnic group or not? I'd have thought self-identification far outweighed what outsiders thought constituted one.
A person such as the Tim, obsessed with racial classification, could make the case that there is such a thing as an Ashkenazi ethnic group.
But that would mean that Israel, as 'a state of the Jews' is even less legitimate, as the Ashkenazi have absolutely no legitimate claim to a connection, historical, genetic or otherwise, to the land currently occupied by the Zionists, seeing as they are mainly descended from the Khazarian tribe.
Khazars came from the Caucasus, and converted en-masse to Judaism sometime around 1000 yrs ago. Being converts they have no connection other than their religion, to the original Jewish inhabitants of the middle east.
There is nothing but religion connecting an Ashkenazi Jew from say Ukraine, to an ethiopian Jew. Absent the religion, and it's associated rituals, the two have nothing in common - no shared culture exists between them. Therefore to claim that they constitute an 'ethnic group' or the more vague sounding 'a people', is nonsense. It is nonsense invented by anti-semites 150 yrs ago in Europe, and it was latched onto by Zionist racists as a method to help them steal the land from the indigenous inhabitants of the area known as Palestine.
there is no such entity as 'the Jewish ethnic group' - there is no ethnicity of 'Jewish' - Jewish is a religion shared by numerous groups among them Ashkenazi, Sephardi, etc.
The notions that 'Jewish' constitutes a separate ethnicity is a notion invented by racists and anti-semites. In this regard zionists such as Tim as indistinguishable from Nazis - both maintained that Jewish people were from a race separate from all others - this is a lie and genetics and historical research have repeatedly shown it to be so.
It is a lie the Zionists invented so as to attempt to accord some measure of legitimacy to their racist endeavours
I understood your referring to Israel as a racist state implied you wished its disbandment as a Jewish nation (with some Arabs in it) and its absorption into a wider Palestine. I seem to be mistaken. In my defence I cite your unique writing style :)
Questions withdrawn.
I'll keep it to one single point. That might help us both. If we clarify that we can try a second.
I did not write '..Israel has to disband..'( that was your own).
What I wrote(check it) is that Israel should decommission its nuclear knuckleduster( then it might have some basis for its often proclaimed high moral ground stance).
That could just lead to a nuclear free agreement for the region(and reverse the diminishing returns of its fraying hasbara attempts to mask its self-created obscene 'facts-on-the-ground').
I did not even call for disarmament, just the nuke element,ok?
Its arsenal is a provocation to expanding paranoia which is going to become a self-fulfilling prophesy of MAD(I'll presume you dont have to google that)which may not actually be as assured of keeping the trigger fingers idle as the deterrence creditors hope.
If you were not projecting onto my actual comments, this one would be redundant, but I'll persevere in crediting you with good faith. Reciprocate SVP.
Wait... you're lecturing me on using provocative, polemical and uncommunicative language?!
I have to pick through a lot in there (I don't understand your first paragraph, I think you're confusing me with somebody else) but I'm not sure you've answered the question as to why Israel has to disband before all the other countries, or even why or how Israel could successfully absorb itself into a Greater Palestine (which by the same logic would have to include Jordan) - without major issues relating to Islamic supremacism.
You also seem to be conflating two entirely separate issues, that of the right of Israel to exist and the behaviour/actions of the current government of that country. Why is Israeli nationalism (Zionism) of less importance than the -equally valid- Palestinian Nationalism?
And how do you square claims of remaining human and respecting humanity with the claims that Jews have been "indoctrinated by Fascists" and that Israel needs to "humanise"?
You are not thinking it through. Its a matter of priorities.Keep your sentimental attachment, but get your humanity into the driving seat, i.e. stop denying the common humanity of Palestinians(and everyone else, its a mirror of Nazi or white SA supremacism). Israeli terrorist tactics betray your assumed innocence. And engage your intelligence to receive as well as transmit. Its called communication(more productive than polemical argument, if less fun).
Your language is deliberatily provocative, but I'll resist.
Nation states have their place(without a concept of national identity I would not have benefitted from the national struggles of my home territory, but I aint going thinking Paddy is any purer than my English friends and relations).Humanity requires no heirarchies of invented racial idiocy, especially given the escalating hardware.
You think your tribe is going to dictate for us all?Go for it, but history advises against.
Currently I am not suggesting Israel disarm and open its borders. But I do suggest shedding the nuke knuckle, arguing for a nuclear-free middle east, desisting from the propaganda of shrinking credibility, while you can, and generally stop digging your own tribal/racist/militarist/exclusivist hole.
Jews do NOT have a monopoly on persecution, they have been indoctrinated by fascists(thats what fascist DO).Nor, despite their achievements, do the Jews have a monopoly on capability.Palestine also produces civilised humans, not the caricature terrorist fanatics Israel tries to create.
And no I aint expecting Israel to humanise in a hurry.Thats not my problem.Mine is to stay human before the sub-human provocation and incitment. The planet is an even bigger place than the middle east, but we can still sterilise it if we dont evolve out of our tribal/national competitive pre-humanity and embrace the planetary global destiny than will alow us survive the mentalities of historic emergence.
Or Israel can pursue its Samson option, and pull the house down on top of us all, which seems to be current direction(the same one Adolf would have triggered if he had Israel's arsenal).
Shalom.
So, essentially your peace plan is that we all shed nationalist sentiment? Ok, well, I suppose technically that would work, until people found some other reason to kill each other.
But, back to the real world for a minute, aside from the fact that nation states are evil (sic) what's the problem with a state for the Jewish ethnic group? Why should it specifically be disbanded now in advance of all the other nation states being disbanded?
The middle East is a big place, surely there's room for it?
Now try this.
' The original occupants chose war in 1948...'?
So if I get a bunch of mercenaries together and decide to invade any territory I fancy(lets say Lebanon on the strenght of legends of a prehistoric invasion of Ireleand by Phoenicians, which is just one source of legendary origins for the Irish)any resistance can be carded as the occupants chosing war?Follow your own logic.
I claim I am returning to my god-given ancestral homeland and get divine licence to perpetrate all and any brutality with impunity.
Thats YOUR logic.
The racist project is the racist/sectarian Jewish exclusiveness of the Zionist colony ethnically cleansing the Palestinian native population, a great European tradition that has spread its version of peace and justice across the planet, creating a string of subserviant nation states to effect its divisive conquests.
As for the break up of the region post WW11, that was the same euro/american imperial powers carving the oil sump into their shareholders wallets, and installing the same reactionary royal house-client regimes as are currently being challenged by the arab spring, which the west is scrambling to contain lest any real democratic justice emerge to spoil their pie charts.
I dont reckon there will be any peace or justice until the jewish people shed their paranoia(founded undeniably on justifiable fears of persecution, but not by Islam, by white Europeans)and realise the crimes they have inflicted on the Palestinians. Ultimately a unitary, non racist democratic formula must be found.The alternative will be the domination of the region by US/EU/Israeli imposed unilateral 'peace and justice',which will fester as the colonists continue to DEHUMANISE themselves by their actions and the poisonous psychological feedback of those same inhumanities.
The nation state is, historically speaking, a recent creation, and a gross simplification of human realities. Like many collective illusions(consider its extreme in ultra-nationalist Nazism)its universal acceptance makes it difficult to dismantle.
If we dont shed nationalist delusions soon and genuinely unite the nations in their common interdependence we all gonna head down that nuclear drain, sooner or later. Our history as a species indicates no other outcome.
Perhaps, for itself, at the expense of the original occupants of the land they have stolen and continue to steal and colonise for their racist project.
the 'original occupants' chose war in 1948 and continue to do so, what do you suggest should be done to make peace?
And to what "racist project" do you refer?
Surely the only real peace is separate states, as was envisaged from the breakup of the region, post WW2? Any other settlement, it would seem, would be highly unjust.
and the Duke Lane comment that '..Israel wants peace..'.
Perhaps, for itself, at the expense of the original occupants of the land they have stolen and continue to steal and colonise for their racist project.
The only peace they offer the Palestinians is the peace of the grave, and the rest of us are expected to hold our peace as they subvert and plough through any and all international laws, other than what they can call into slanted service for their expansionary ends.
Strange peace.
Isn't that a bit like saying they used to rape, but now they just strangle?
Previous comment that Israel is attempting regime change highly unlikely - Israel used to occupy Gaza and voluntarily pulled out in 2005.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/4235768.stm
More likely that Israel wants peace.
The current assistance to Israel in prohibiting the peaceful protest of the flotilla is another manifestation of the power of the Likud government headed by Netanyahu and Lieberman.
Probably every politically aware person knows full well that the blockade of Gaza has nothing whatsoever to do with the smuggling of a handful of small arms to be used against the 4th most powerful, secret nuclear weapons state in the world, and everything to do with the Israeli agenda to effect regime change in Gaza by keeping 1.6 million souls on the point of economic collapse.
Meanwhile, Netanyahu and Lieberman authorise more and more illegal settlements on Palestinian land - and the world stays silent in the face of this naked aggression.
It seems that there are those who want a third world war.