Plenty of blame to go around. Role of the revolutionary left.

by anon Sun Nov 22, 2015 20:50

Interesting article but it is not unique to Ireland. I'd say this is a common problem in other countries which suggests a more general problem but you are right, it is all highly damaging.

And on the idea of asking people to come together and to reject sectarianism, surely it would just arise again from the dynamics and interactions with other groups? Seems to me we need a greater understanding of sectarianism. Maybe it is now part of the left culture and is difficult to change.

by Old Bill Mon Nov 23, 2015 13:51

Unfortunately many individuals and some groups adopt and intellectualise marxism as an all-encompassing belief system - and they develop few hobbies and cultural interests outside their system. Like adherents of a millenarian cult, they allow themselves to be gobbled up by their belief tenets, and don't mix socially with non-believers. So they regard themselves as the elect and they become in their own eyes the custodians of irrefutable orthodoxy. They often end up fighting heresy instead of trying to convert the undecided. 17th century Malvolio Puritans and 14th-century Inquisitors were the religious advanced mirror images of 20th century secret police interrogators and show trial judges and prosecutors.

Is it any wonder that so many 'ordinary working people' carry on living and partly living and decline to have anything to do with strident political campaigners?

by John Throne - Project for a Working peoples World. Mon Nov 23, 2015 17:09

Thanks to the two folks who made comments. We in Project for a Working Peoples World believe that for there to be a real chance to end sectarianism the big battalions of the working class have to move into action. But even then this movement will have to experience some nasty experiences as it learns the sectarian ways of the sectarian groups. i see SF is very strongly damaging the anti water charge movement at the moment with its sectarianism. It could hardly be called left sectarianism. Maybe ourselves alone get into bed with the openly capitalist parties sectarianism. Maybe become the main capitalist party sectarianism.

But back to the points raised. We in the project for a Working peoples World ( see Blog weknowwhatsup.blogspot.com) have the following two criteria we operate on. Unless people from a left background openly and publicly admit that they have made major mistakes, that they have failed utterly to put down roots in the working class then there is no point in discussing. It is only a waste of our time. We all made sectarian, ultra left, opportunist mistakes, these have to be openly discussed and lessons learnt. The self styled revolutionary left have utterly failed to put down mass roots in the working class this has to be recognized and the lessons drawn.

The other criteria for involvement with PWPW is that while we are building a socialist current in the mass movement we are doing so in a non sectarian manner. But also in a way that prevents it from itself becoming sectarian. We do this in two ways. On. Members of PWPW can also belong to other groups as long as these other groups principles do not in general contradict the general principles of PWPW. but also and crucially that if members of PWPW are members of other groups they can only be so if they share with PWPW the internal life, discussions, differences etc of the other group. No more secretive sectarian BS. We have had enough of that.

Lenin is so misused by the left sectarians. He insisted that the ideas of the Bolsheviks be shared with, made known to the as he put it " the people." Not even the working class but the "people." He said that all discussions debates etc of the Bolsheviks conferences and gatherings should be made known to the "people." How far is this from the secretive world of the left sectarians. These groups are insane. The bourgeois can listen in to just about anybody these days yet the left groups want to keep their inner world secret. As if they could. The reality is that these groups want to keep their internal life secret so they can hopefully get one over on some other minuscule left sectarian group with whom they are competing and the existing clique in leadership are not threatened. Think of another example from lenin. When he came back to Russia in 1917 he was a minority in the Bolsheviks. He got off the train and stood up on a tank and without as much as a bye your leave launched into the majority of the Bolsheviks, this in public. He never even thought of such a thing as the so called democratic centralism which the self styled revolutionary left groups are so bg on today. The Blosheviks papers published all sorts of different views. The truth is the left sectarian groups of today base themselves on the life of the Bolsheviks when that organization was already well on the way to being destroyed by the civil war, mass starvation and the related rise of stalinism.

There are more people who consider themselves revolutionary socialists outside the self styled revolutionary socialist groups than are inside them. This means there is something wrong with the internal and external lives of these groups. It is an open and shut case. These groups cannot be reformed. A new formation with a new and different internal culture has to be built. In my struggle to do this i have totally rejected what is know as democratic centralism. i am much more inclined to use the term democratic collectivism. i am not too happy with this term but it is the best i can come up with at the moment. Help to develop a better formulation would be welcome. And help to try and build a non sectarian revolutionary left movement would also be appreciated. By the way it is not only those who are still in the self styled revolutionary left sectarian groups that are doing damage. All those former members who were sickened by the internal lives of these groups and dropped out also have to shoulder their share of blame. Complaining about the left sectarian groups and doing nothing yourself is not a way forward. Contact me. Help us in PWPW. Sean Throne.

John throne.

by We are not amused? Tue Nov 24, 2015 12:41

The SP and the SWP are so sectarian they cannot even have one united front. They each have to have their own united front!!!

by Joe - None Tue Nov 24, 2015 14:25

What's most striking is the utter lack of ambition for the left. Take the very interesting example of Joan Collins TD. There are currently 5 seats in that constituency. Labour have two. They won't hold onto both. The question is where will it go? There's a real opportunity for the left to win more seats. But this article posits this as Joans 'seat'. This is bourgeois democracy. No one owns the seat! It's a democracy. Why can't there be two female socialist TDs out of this? Why is there such a lack of ambition? I'm not in the SWP but can see how Joan won that seat not just because of a political swing to the left and being an excellent candidate but also because the SWP got behind her and campaigned for her. I can't see the sectarianism there, in all fairness.

There's a lack of ambition for the left in Ireland. It's called not seeing the wood for the trees. John, Ireland has changed since you left. It's a shame you can't see it. A greater shame that you still using old memories to attempt to intervene on things you don't have a handle on.

by john throne - Project for a working peoples world. Tue Nov 24, 2015 18:16

Thank you for your comments Joe. But i am not sure what you are proposing. Are you proposing that two left candidates run for the seat in the constituency where Joan Collins now is a TD. If so have you tried to get a meeting between the different forces involved. Particularly the SWP which is as far as I know is proposing to run a candidate there. If not I would suggest you do so. Such a meeting could look at the resources involved and see if there was a chance of winning two sets and if so run for two seats. If not look at the left candidate with the best chance of being elected and all other left forces withdraw their candidate and put their resources behind the candidate with the best chance of winning. i recognize i am not on the ground but i would find it hard to think that the sitting TD especially with such a good record as Joan would not have the best chance of being elected. I have to disagree with you when you say that you do not see the actions of the SWP in this constituency as left sectarian. They pick out a constituency with a real fighting left candidate and decide to run against her. I have to speak strongly I think it is an utter scandal. Now i could be wrong. Maybe there is a very good chance of getting two left TD's elected. But if there is not, in fact if this is not just about a certainty then no chances should be taken. i have to stand by my position. i find the decision of the SWP sectarian, something which it shares of course with the SP which in any similar situation would put its own interests above that of the movement. I am not against the SWP or the SP. i am against sectarianism. I am not for the SWP or the SP. i am for a revolutionary left with a non sectarian approach and a different democratic collectivist internal culture. And by the way i do not believe that capitalism will be ended by bourgeois democratic methods. But using elections to conduct a struggle for the consciousness of the working class is a correct tactic until the revolutionary forces are in a position to carry through the revolution. And another detail as this is usually always thrown at me as a barb. that is that i am no longer living in Ireland and so out of touch. But I am not living an any other country in the world except the US. Does this mean that i should keep my moth shut about all these countries also. I would not agree. Sean Throne.

by sean throne - sean throne Wed Nov 25, 2015 22:51

We are not amused.I would like to be touch with you directly. You recognized the essence of what I was saying and also did it with humor. Thank you . Could we be in contact. My email is loughfinn@aol.com