Last night's 'True Spies' investigates infriltrators of Militant, SWP, WRP, NUM, and the far right.

by vert-et-noir Tue Nov 05, 2002 19:40

You sad ass, narrow minded one track s**thead, how can you expect anyone to take your trolling seriously when you use the deluded rantings of an IST supporter (self-declared) as a stick to try and knock anarchists with.

All of my personal comments about you aside (it seems to be the only successful way to engage in debate around here), one of the major benefits of coming from an anarchist perspective is that it is not necessary to follow party policy by becoming sectarian over every pedantic difference of opinion with those whom we ought to working for a better future.

Let's face facts people, none of us are totally right or wrong.

by iosaf 'an anarchist fuck' - reclaim the streets & genome Tue Nov 05, 2002 15:54 iosaf at email dot com barcelona

The 7 million people who are squatting homes and social space in Europe.
now correct me if I´m wrong yes do, but I don´t seem to remember ther being 7 million SWM members now are there?
Anarchy also works for the free radio networks of Europe.

by Anarcho Hater Tue Nov 05, 2002 11:21

"IST supporter" said the following:

"[SWP called for vote for Labour] NOt very "revolutionary" is it? The only objections the SWP has to the State is that it's not running it. The SWP is founded upon an admiration of the fascist tactics of the Bolsheviks. Fuck the SWP."

If you understood where the SWP were coming from you would understand why they would have called for a vote for LAbour (which I dont think was their position, it was the position of Militant). Labour were a mass party of the working class, it had 1 million members, links to the unions, a vibrant youth section, and an internal democracy that the leadership didnt like.

The SWP would call themselves Marxists, as would most socialists. Marxists want to see the working class take the state from the bourgeoisie. It's not the position of Socialists for a party to take over the state, it the CLASS that take over the state.

The Bolsheviks were not Fascists. To say so is completely wrong. Read your history mate.

It's about time Anarchist fucks got a life and got into the real world. Anarchy does not work, it's a nice idea but it does not work. Anarchy means unaccountable leadership, it means lack decisions, it means a step backwards!

Anarchist students why dont ye get out of college, off the cannibas and into a job.

by angry Tue Nov 05, 2002 01:10

by the professional shock jocks

by with a huge f¨^*ing file on himself. Mon Nov 04, 2002 22:42

groups of ravers thought it a good idea to celebrate a free-party in one of the old ex-MI5 buildings.
It´s quite a memory for many in the underground London Party scene. Because at about 3am of the Sunday when the rigs and DJs and crusty hippies et al had only begun to party a group of very confused and upset officers of HM security forces arrived on the scene.
The Met. officer with responsibility for the night allowed the party to go on, rave parties were and are often tolerated for the very function of allowing survelience of "those aubversive elements" when their hair is down so to speak. The deal very very verbal might I add was "you can rave here till Sunday, but don´t go searching any of those rooms upstairs".
It appeared that MI5 had left lots of file boxes lying around, well they do have a reputation for losing things, how many laptops did they forget on the Tube? [answer more than 4].
So good folk of Ireland don´t worry about the BHS, they´re quite inept at the best of times, ask David Shayler, though he belonged to the other SSI, didn´t he.

I remember looking through files at differnet times of my life collated by differnet agencies, its an old trick, "We´ll scare you by showing you we know what you eat for breakfast", In the Phoenix Park they have several juicy boxfiles on the British Embassy for example.

It ought not worry anyone, spies are after all just workers, and badly treated ones at the best of times.
And they nurse their labour greviances long after.
So I believe.
but don´t trust me, because today reuters reports that seemingly you can´t believe everything you read on the net.

by ISTsupporter Mon Nov 04, 2002 18:51

NOt very "revolutionary" is it? The only objections the SWP has to the State is that it's not running it. The SWP is founded upon an admiration of the fascist tactics of the Bolsheviks. Fuck the SWP.

by Ann Mon Nov 04, 2002 16:20

I think it shows that the state is very much a capitalist state. The State is there to protect the interests of capitalists, not the interests of ordinary people.

The role they played in the infriltration of the Unions is particularly shamefull.

On the infiltration of the other groups, I dont think they found out much! Everyone knew that the Militant Tendency (now Socialist Party) and the Socialist Workers Party stood for revolution.

These groups were not secret about their beliefs and still arnt! Not only was this an abuse of the rights of citizens to freely express themselves and organise, it was also a waste of tax payers money!

by life's a riot Mon Nov 04, 2002 15:54

Charlie Kimber on spies in the trade unions

THE revelations about MI5 infiltration of the unions confirm that there are large parts of the state wholly removed from any hint of democratic control. According to the BBC series True Spies, secret service agents bugged, burgled and bribed their way into the heart of the unions during the 1970s and 1980s. Hurling aside all the rhetoric about privacy and the rule of law, these agents did what they pleased in order to destabilise workers' organisations.

The spies had friends at the top of the union movement. Joe Gormley, the leader of the miners' NUM union in the 1970s, and Ray Buckton, who led the Aslef rail union, passed information about their members to state agents. Gormley was a traditional Labour right winger. He had secret meetings with Tory prime minister Ted Heath during the miners' strikes of 1972 and 1974. So his links with the state are not surprising.

But Buckton is at first sight more of a shock. He was seen as left wing and was at the centre of discussion among left wing union leaders about tactics during the miners' strike of 1984-5. He was also vilified by newspapers such as the Daily Mail for being a "filthy red" who was holding the country to ransom. On one occasion the witch-hunting was so intense it led to death threats. Buckton was given armed Special Branch guards.

At the time he said he was convinced that his death threats had been engineered to provide an excuse for round the clock surveillance. Perhaps it was to make it easier for him to pass on information! It seems likely that Gormley and Buckton were not alone. The ex Special Branch officers who have been boasting of their exploits to the BBC say that 23 senior trade unionists were "talking" to them in the 1970s-not counting those working directly for MI5.

Based on the agents' reports, workers were vetted by employers and then blacklisted. The lives of many thousands of workers, and those of their families, were wrecked as a result. The surveillance went beyond trade unionists.

Tony Robinson, a member of Lancashire Special Branch between 1965 and 1981, told the BBC how he visited MI5's registry. There were "thousands and thousands of files. There must have been upwards of, if not more than, a million." According to former MI5 officer Cathy Massiter, "Whenever a major dispute came up it would immediately become a major area for investigation."

MI5 compiled 40 volumes each on Hugh Scanlon and Jack Jones, leaders of the TGWU and the AUEW unions. They were viewed much as Bob Crow and Mark Serwotka are today. The security services went for CND and the Anti-Apartheid Movement. They also investigated the National Council of Civil Liberties and its leaders Patricia Hewitt and Harriet Harman.

They are now, respectively, trade and industry secretary and solicitor general. However, for all MI5's nastiness, it would be wrong to overestimate its importance. It didn't stop CND and anti-apartheid being huge movements. It didn't stop the miners winning in 1972 or 1974. Indeed, despite having Joe Gormley as an informer, MI5 told the government in 1972 that there would definitely be no strike.

Ray Buckton did play a disgusting role during the miners' strike. He pushed through a terrible pay settlement on the rail in January 1985. This helped the Tories isolate the miners. But it is very doubtful that Buckton sold out because he was a spy. Other union leaders also settled key claims while the miners were fighting.

Nor did the secret service briefings always do a great deal for their masters. Labour minister Barbara Castle describes in her diaries, "Another security service report on the Ford dispute. The more I read these reports, the less confidence I have in our intelligence.

"To begin with, the material is always mighty thin and most of it would be obvious anyway to an informed politician." Castle once told me (and she wasn't being especially nice when she said it) that "you could learn more from Socialist Worker than from the secret service".

The state has always sought to infiltrate the unions. From the earliest days there have been spies at work-and there undoubtedly still are some today in the unions and the anti-capitalist movement. True Spies exposed a little of what the state is really like-not neutral, wedded to the interests of the powerful and the rich, immune in critical areas to democracy.

If this is what these people do in a strike, imagine what they would do if they faced a revolution. The state resorts to these measures because of a basic strength on our side. It's not spies who turn up in large numbers to support other workers on picket lines, but fellow trade unionists and socialists whose solidarity is the key to beating the bosses and their state.

by Durutti Column Mon Nov 04, 2002 13:51

King Mob will be dealt with.

by Fionan Lynch Mon Nov 04, 2002 06:12 komsomol at swirvemail dot com

What do you expect really?!?....