Are any of the groups that opposed Nice aware of what is being proposed in the new Draft treaty

by Des Sun Dec 22, 2002 20:40

The so-called “European Anti Poverty Network” is just another carriage in the “Poverty Industry” gravy train. Large salaries, expenses and junkets. They can make all the wonderful “proposals” they want. They are just as much aware as any of us that the “European Union” is an entity dedicated to the “free market” and the neo liberal agenda. The concept of a Social Europe in the context of neo liberalism is an obscene joke. The prospect of said agenda been implemented has been advanced by the result of Nice two, we did our best, but the cause was not helped by the fact that approx. half of the electorate did not show up, the anti Nice campaign could never have hoped to compete with the resources of big business and the state plus of course our “free media”, of course when the next referendum campaign comes about, we need to start campaigning much sooner and achieve the maximum degree of unity, excluding the likes of Barrett but one thing we certainly do not need is “cheerleaders” such as the author of the post.

by doheochai - Socialist Party Fri Dec 20, 2002 00:25

As the Socialist Party representative on the Forum for Europe, I attend the plenary session during which Fintan Farrell outlined these proposals to the Forum.

Many of the proposals are laudable.

Unfortunately, the EU will not implement them. Why, because the EU is engaged in a neo-liberal economic agenda and is not capable or for that matter interested in eliminating poverty and deprivation. The economic priorities of the EU will not allow it. Unfortunately the eapn appear to have illusions in the convention and the EU, illusions that will be shattered in the coming period with the economic recession that Europe is now heading into. The economic interests of capitalism with be placed before everything else and ordinary working class people will be made pay.

In relation to what others have said about the SP and the agenda of the EU. We are well aware of what is in the proposals. There will be another referendum in 2004 and these proposals will be fought then, most likely in the middle of an economic recession. In the meantime we raise our objections at every available opportunity. And yes we do carryout research. We do not use this research to try and influence the great and powerful in the EU, but to propagandise among working class people, and we will continue to do so.

by iosaf Thu Dec 19, 2002 15:52

get writing and thinking about emergent states.
I recall telling ye, though outside the transnationalists (anarchists and greens mostly)
and the nationalists (SF or IRSP) no-one seems to get excited by emergent nations.
Why do we? (anarko-greens?)
well coz they make anarkothings easier.and green things.
and because both Euskal Herria and Catalúnya and Sardegna have indicated that they would chose a neutral alignment.
aww aint that sweet they´d be little friends for craggy island.
Basque country population- 8 million.
Catalúna - 12 million
Sardegna - 5 million.
little craggy island- 3.5 or 5 depending on how you count.

by Won't say Thu Dec 19, 2002 15:04

Any old gobshite can criticise from the sidelines - actually contributing is another thing.

Perhaps the gobshites think that their criticisms are a contribution? Maybe they are so conditioned to criticising the fucked-up world we live in that they can't do anything else? Or maybe they're just gobshites.

Indymedia is a collective, a co-operative, a shared venture with non-commercial motivations and goals. Consuming it without contributing to it is somewhat parasitical. Clogging up the newswire with re-posted articles, comments (idiot or otherwise) and other non-journalism just degrades the quality of the facility for others and adds to the work of the editors who have to edit the shit out.

Indymedia is space for the publication of articles, photographs, audio, video and other material that can't find an outlet elsewhere. If it's just another discussion board or is full of re-posts from the commercial media then what's the point?

If you value indymedia and the idea of indymedia then contribute original content to it. At the very least don't clutter it up with your shite.

by iosaf Thu Dec 19, 2002 14:52 barcelona

I´m currently fact checking and sourcing a long article on France and the EU.
I remind readers that the week that Ireland voted for the second time on NICE the frontpage of indymedia.org (the main site) carried a feature article on Ireland.
That was a sign of the importance of the referendum to anti-globalists not only in Ireland but all over the place.
Giscard (he who left the Elysee palace when he lost tenure as president of France to cries from protesters of "where are the diamonds") has been hatching his constitution project for a long time.

I know that comment and anaylsis of this project and the so far sidelined optional projects are being given serious thought in many countries.

A EU constitution will effect the emergence of nation states in Europe such as the Basque countries, Sardinia, Catalúnya to mention a few.

Ireland is and will only play a small part in any negotiations. Sorry but that´s how it is.

I´m grateful for the C&P above, it is evidence that this issue is being thought about.

The campaign for NO was well fought against the established Dail parties and huge funding. To criticise any of the NO coalition is insulting at the least.

Our work in Ireland, the EU, the USA or Canada goes on everyday, as campaigns gain strength and lobbies continue.
And we find new allies and must choose them carefully every time.
At present the Lehendakari [prime minister of the autonmous Basque countries in Spain, a moderate constitutional nationalist] is touring Europe with his plans of "external association" for the Basque countries with Spain.
That plan effects any future EU constitution.
I would suggest that any Irish person who is considering teh implications of a European constitution do their best to learn more about the european peoples (who are presently organised in 125 regions) and their hopes for their own futures.

Ray and Pat know what they´re talking about pretty much every second day. I know what I´m talking about pretty much every day except Sundays when I´m noticably obtuse.

My article on France and the EU is due to be first published in Catalúnya, then Italy, and then will appear here on the newswire if another forum is not suggested before next January. Where probably it will be ignored.

by pat c Thu Dec 19, 2002 13:57

but i would not call him a politico clown (well, during heated exchanges anything can be said, on both sides). if hes a politico clown then why do the orthodox trots have problems in adequately responding to his comments on the class nature of the former "USSR"?

i do think however his responses to C&P jobs tend to antagonise people rather than get them to write summaries etc.

by Ray Thu Dec 19, 2002 13:51

Now that three *completely unrelated* people have told me off, I have learned that its wrong to ask people to post news to the newswire. Will I ever live down the shame?

by spoonfeeding lazy politico sucka's Thu Dec 19, 2002 13:43

The poor sod above spoon feeds Ray with a fairly large article from a mainstrean professional (non crazy) group, and all Ray can do is whimper for more. Ray do your own research or stop annoying everyone else with your trivial observations and petty rule-making.

I agree with the origional article as to where have all the groups opposed to Nice vanished to? Is this what happens when they lose? or do they always leave things to the very last minute? It is obvious that politico clowns like Ray and the SP do no research but bullshit at length about things they know nothing about. It is no wonder Pat C. always wills the tiffs with them as he is obviously more informed than their closed narrow minds on many issues.

by Ray Thu Dec 19, 2002 13:21

Now, for the gold star, why not write an article yourself?

by calling censor Ray's bluff Thu Dec 19, 2002 13:12

European NGO leader criticizes the new draft
European Treaty for lack of social vision ***

The European Anti Poverty Network (EAPN) is happy that
the Convention on the Future of Europe has agreed to
the requests form MEP's, Non Governmental Organisations
and Trade Unions to establish a Working Group on Social
Europe ...it is difficult to understand how the
Convention could have discussed the future of Europe
with out looking specifically at its social aspects.

European Social Model
For most people it is the 'European Social Model' that
distinguishes Europe from other parts of the 'developed
countries'. This model is probably better defined as a
set of shared values than as a fixed model....
Defending these values should be at the heart of the
work of the Convention and they must be explicitly
named in the Constitutional Treaty that will be the
outcome of the work of the Convention.

They include:
- A society which places human rights including
economic and social rights at the centre of its
concerns and ensures that no one is excluded from
exercising their rights and participating fully
in society
- A high level of social protection and universal and
equal access to key services such as; health care,
education and training, housing, that is guaranteed
or provided by the state
- The recognition of the strength of cultural diversity
within and between member states.
- A commitment to high quality and stable employment
with a strong emphasis on the rights of workers.

Social solidarity
It is my belief that to build and maintain high levels
of social solidarity in any country in the current
context requires that we do not just look at narrow
national interests but that we need to develop policies
and practices that are sustainable and that have a
positive impact at the global level. The direction that
the EU takes through the outcomes of the Convention
will be decisive in this regard and the Forum provide
a valuable space for an Irish input into its debates.

Demands for the new EU Treaty.
Fintan Farrell outlined the principle demands of the
EAPN for the new Convention Working Group on
'the Social Europe':
- To define and include the key values of the European
social model among the basic principles in the new
draft Constitution for Europe
- To commit the EU to the elimination of poverty and
increased equality in the EU's objectives
- To give legal force to the open method of
co-ordination, used to co-ordinate action by EU
member states against poverty, in the new
Constitution
- To widen the areas of EU competence to allow for a
common EU framework to fight poverty
- To replace the present Broad Economic Guidelines with
economic and social guidelines
- To commit the EU to increasing the involvement of
civil society, and particularly those representing
people experiencing poverty, in EU policy-making.

Robin Hanan or Brian Carty, EAPN Ireland
phone: 01-8745737
mobile (RH): 087-2857713
(BC) 087-6598175
e-mail:

by Ray Thu Dec 19, 2002 12:53

If, instead of just slagging off the groups you mention, you actually _told us_ what Bruton et al are planning, what has been proposed in the draft treaty, and maybe even proposed your own analysis of how to fight it.
You know, if you wrote an actual article, instead of criticising everyone else for not writing articles.