Workers' Party support non-violent direct action at Shannon

by Nice 1 Tue Feb 04, 2003 21:42

I nevered liked the wp that much, but credit where credit is due you never sold out like that rat de rossa and the Rrrrr Rabbit. Keep up the good work on Shannon hold your ground and dont let the corrupt fianna failers run you out of Shannon.

by conor (wsm personal capacity) Tue Feb 04, 2003 17:30

bystander: Ok, Conor the grasp of maths isn't the best but you didn't engage with what I wrote.

You and your mates don't represent anyone but yourselves and you're entitled to say what you want.

Thats exceedingly big of you no really cheers big ears - granting me "a right" to free speech any other rights to "bestow" - don't worry I'm acustomed to "earning" rights in the old fashioned way - by grabbing them !

bs: Prior to the damage to the US aircraft mass public opinion was inching towards an anti-war position, the Shannon issue was seen as relatively straightforward ie Shannon's use as a staging post for an illegal war. People were ignoring the siren calls of the Sindo and the other rightwing media outlets, many people were impressed by the quiet dignity of the Shannon protests, and I'm sure there are people, who wouldn't normally go on marches, who were going to march on the 15th but who're now having doubts. It takes a lot from most people to even think of participating in a protest march - alienating them is stupid.

me:
prior to the actions it HAD inched its way to a MASSIVE 68% against - public opinion ALREADY ON BOARD SHOCK !

What is your evidence for your assertion I've seen very little change in attitude amongst the people I've been talking too.
Not that many agreed all the way with Mary or Catholic worker
- but they're as against the war and as prepared to march as ever.
At a certain stage, though, you have to say (to paraphrase marx) that the point is not to discuss the world but to change it.
The direct action has put the focus fair and square wheer it belongs - ON Shannon. There may be some red baiting of the peace camp but the government is now under enormous pressure

1. the huge and accelerating financial cost
2. the continous focus of all the debate on the war on shannon (compare with 1991 - hardly a mention)
3. Now the US are worried about the security !

and there are results
- world airways have pulled out!
- others will follow -

as to the loss of public support wait for the next poll
- don't under estimate the depth of feeling. I think people are feeling a buzz
- marching is OK
- but marching within a context where a possiblity of real victory exists
- thats even better and this time we can win !

bs:
Conor, it's about perception. Trevor Sargeant etc have to be careful about how they are seen to react to what happened yesterday - one false move and the whole weight of the mass media is down on them like a tonne of bricks, ever ready to ridicule and marginalise them. The WSM doesn't have that problem. You can say what you want when nobody's listening.

me:
Well thats why WE don't waste our time with parliments - that's their look out!
The WSM have made one consistent arguement for the last year and a half

- no to refueling at shannon

- At the begining we were ignored - first demo October 2001 - 60 people
- last TWO Shannon demos over 800 people at each !
- The focus is now WHERE IT SHOULD BE
the one place where we can have some small effect
- obviously modesty forbids us from taking all the credit for this ! They may not be listening but they are WATCHING !

bs:You have to acknowledge that stopping the US use of Shannon is not the same as stopping the coming war against Iraq. If the US said "Fuck it, we'll fly direct to Frankfurt - its too much hassle to keep stopping in Shannon" that would be that for the anti-war movement. Aside from the usual "tiny, token demos in Dublin", as you put it", that normally protest against US imperial wars.

Stopping the re fueling would be a tny pin prick in the American plans

It would have a small but real military significance.
modern warfare requires a HUGE supply chain in order to keep going. (A simple
example, the Abrams tank (americas main battle tank) requires 5 gallons of fuel to drive 1 mile not counting the burgers and pepsis for the crew).
Shutting Shannon will have a small direct impact on
this supply chain - It will be inconvient for them and how to explain to "the folks back home"

IT WOULD BE A MASSIVE victory for activists in Ireland MASSIVE and UNPRECEDENTED

- I don't know how long you've been around but little things like this where you actually organise and win are HUGE in terms of morale (and rare in Ireland)
- don't kid yourself You've also got to realise the danger of a GOOD example
- there's plenty of occupations on bases all over Europe to actually force them out again would be a huge boost to others through out the world

see www.struggle.ws/stopthewar.html

Personally, I have no great problem with what happened yesterday, in itself, but from the perspective of how it will be spun by the mass media in such as way as to weaken the anti-war message then, yes, I think it was counter-productive.

If you're worried about the spin - go and counter spin - spider!

the first step for any one who's serious is to stand by these people not to nit pick around your perception of waht people might or might not think (and I think they are often a lot subtler then the meeja give em credit for) respect people's intellegence - argue the case FOR direct action. Anyway its a pretty basic act of solidarity!

Are you so used to defeat that the smell of victory turns you of!

Whats happening here is unpreceedented in my many boring years as a lefty !

bs: Finally, please try to respect the fact that people have different ideas on the best way forward. Not everyone is willing to participate in or condone, direct action. Showering abuse on those who disagree with was happened yesterday helps nobody.

me:Well they don't have to and were not made to particpate in any way - but to come out and CONDEM from the get go is unaceptable to me!
and I will defend all reasonable ,non violent action - but prefer it to be open mass based and democratic. I don't think ANY respect has been afforded to the rapidly growing minority on the anti war movement who favour going beyond lobbying and the meeja to actually - for once - achieve SOMETHING

Conor

by Bystander Tue Feb 04, 2003 16:36

Ok, Conor the grasp of maths isn't the best but you didn't engage with what I wrote.

You and your mates don't represent anyone but yourselves and you're entitled to say what you want.

Yes you do scare the bejayus out of me for a couple of reasons but I'll give you just one for the moment. Prior to the damage to the US aircraft mass public opinion was inching towards an anti-war position, the Shannon issue was seen as relatively straightforward ie Shannon's use as a staging post for an illegal war. People were ignoring the siren calls of the Sindo and the other rightwing media outlets, many people were impressed by the quiet dignity of the Shannon protests, and I'm sure there are people, who wouldn't normally go on marches, who were going to march on the 15th but who're now having doubts. It takes a lot from most people to even think of participating in a protest march - alienating them is stupid.

Conor, it's about perception. Trevor Sargeant etc have to be careful about how they are seen to react to what happened yesterday - one false move and the whole weight of the mass media is down on them like a tonne of bricks, ever ready to ridicule and marginalise them. The WSM doesn't have that problem. You can say what you want when nobody's listening.

You have to acknowledge that stopping the US use of Shannon is not the same as stopping the coming war against Iraq. If the US said "Fuck it, we'll fly direct to Frankfurt - its too much hassle to keep stopping in Shannon" that would be that for the anti-war movement. Aside from the usual "tiny, token demos in Dublin", as you put it", that normally protest against US imperial wars.

Personally, I have no great problem with what happened yesterday, in itself, but from the perspective of how it will be spun by the mass media in such as way as to weaken the anti-war message then, yes, I think it was counter-productive.

Finally, please try to respect the fact that people have different ideas on the best way forward. Not everyone is willing to participate in or condone, direct action. Showering abuse on those who disagree with was happened yesterday helps nobody.

See you on the 15th.

by Janus Tue Feb 04, 2003 16:11

Seems to have come out in support of the people at Shannon. Somewhat surprised considering the influence the Americans are supposed to have over them.

by conor (wsm personal capacity) Tue Feb 04, 2003 15:49

by-stander's excellent grasp of maths stuns us with......

*Representing, what, .001% of the Irish people - all politically irrelevant. 200-300 people max.
Who cares what they think.*

Its what we DO that scares the be jaysus outa you !

Actually it is those tiny groups that have driven things WAY further then the last gulf war - who remembers the tiny, token demos in Dublin - the complete lack of ALMOST ANYTHING at shannon ?

- I think you us the tiny minoritys - just for keeping yeese on the right track for once !! mines a guiness

Fianna Fail are the largest party in Ireland - maybe they'd have a welcome for ya by stander

Conor

by iosaf jedi of links Tue Feb 04, 2003 15:08

first the UZI.
isreali made.
lots been lost.

look its Joe "our Mr Higgins"

http://socialist.csn.ul.ie/joe/001027%20Abbeylara%20Report.rtf

the gardaí are always very careful of their ammo.
remember this;
http://www.rte.ie/news/1999/1018/ammunition.html

The Swedish see the updated list flotsam-ing around globally for the city line up Feb 15.
I´ve started a "barricade debate".

http://sweden.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=36746&group=webcast

The austrians are really into the war debate.
lots of colours participating in anti-US/K there.
keep an eye on that lot!
http://austria.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=19573&group=webcast

so we are tallying about 12 million at the moment based on previous shows of commited activists bring out.
One person should be able to get at least five non-activists to the street.
well really.
you don´t even get to think about passing jedi exams if you can´t get five apathetic TV watchers out.

by Corkie Tue Feb 04, 2003 14:54

Billy Kelleher, Fianna Fail TD for Cork North Central (along with his colleagues "Refugee Basher" Noel O'Flynn and Danny "Flogger" Wallace), this morning condemned the Shannon peace activists on local radio (Cork 96FM) and bemoaned the fact that they were carrying "lump hammers and hatchets, hardly things you'd see on a peaceful protest".

It's a pity Billy didn't look inside some of the US military planes at Shannon. he'd have seen things far more lethal than lump hammers and hatchets.

Finally why aren't the TV cameras and press photographers allowed to take photos of the damaged US Navy plane. The gardai said the damage was 'minor'. Given that it's now been stranded for a week and looks like it won't be moving for some time, I think that all the Kings Horses and all the Kings men are they're trying to put Humpty together again.

by jc - swp Tue Feb 04, 2003 14:47

Don't see how anyone could condemn what the Catholics did yesters. I think people are able to see the contradiction with the government condemning the action as violent when in essence they were stopping a war plane that would be part of a war of slaughter on Iraq and wherever else Bush and his cronies decide next. Fair play and congratulations to them and Mary.

by Daithi Tue Feb 04, 2003 14:46

...Sionnain, as far as I know.

by Paddy Tue Feb 04, 2003 14:46

TV3 showed a shot of an Uzi-toter at Shannon last night. Are they going to use Uzis against unarmed protesters (the hatchets are not arms, they were only used against warplanes, not people). Is the next protester going to be another John Carthy?

by sticky bricky iosaf Tue Feb 04, 2003 14:36

cen chaoi ansuid!
Tá comhaontas glás agus na ainrialaí agus "na sheanfianna" go leír ag caint faoi Shannon (ní fhios agam Shannon = ? as geailge)

Anyway you´re all very special.

Well done stickys for bringing a bit of socialism to the arena.

Do any of you remember the meeting of "Catholic Marxists" that took place in Dublin´s pro-cathedral in the 1960s?
I don´t remember the exact year but it was in "holy week" and non marxist members of the Pro-Cathedral assembly were reported to attack the marxist laiety.
lovely word laiety.
anyone have a clue what I´m on about?
think it was 1965.

anyway Shannon who is going to be next?

by Bystander Tue Feb 04, 2003 14:09

So far the score among political organisations is:
FOR: Anarchists (WSM, ASF, AF..), Workers Party.

*Representing, what, .001% of the Irish people - all politically irrelevant. 200-300 people max. Who cares what they think.*

AGAINST: Greens, "Peace Alliance" (effing traitors).

*The greens alone representing 5%+ of Irish people - with possibly many, many more sympathetic to their position. The Peace Alliance (presumably the NGO Peace Alliance?) representing thousands of members. All traitors I suppose?*

So where do the SP, SWP, LP sit?

*Yeah, that would be good to know. Disregarding the SWP, who are of as much consequence as the Anarchists etc, the LP are probably much closer to the Greens' position with a split between those who are pro-war (with a 2nd resolution) and those against war under any circumstances.

by Pat C Tue Feb 04, 2003 14:08

Good to see the WP has got backbone on this issue.

Lets not forget Labour, despite Michael Ds personal position; both Shortall and the Party asd a whole has condemned the action.

Show your disgust:

Contact:

Roisin Shortall tel 6183593
Roisin.Shortall@oireachtas.ie

Contact Labour:
The Labour Party 618 3433 press@labour.ie

by Fiachra Tue Feb 04, 2003 13:56

Cén fáth nach bhfuil focal ar bith as Gearóid agus na buachaillí?

by Alan Tue Feb 04, 2003 13:53

Let's hear from you comrades.

by Badman Tue Feb 04, 2003 13:45

So far the score among political organisations is:
FOR: Anarchists (WSM, ASF, AF..), Workers Party.
AGAINST: Greens, "Peace Alliance" (effing traitors).

So where do the SP, SWP, LP sit?