No protest - no manipulation

by The Man with the IcePick Wed May 08, 2002 12:32

The "moral high ground" well get you nowhere, the police were just doing what they are paid to do and do in every society (usually a lot worse).
There does need to be protests about this issue, otherwise it will be left in the hands of the media and politicans who will make a few cosmetic changes (or recruit a few heads in the case of you know who).
That said the criticisms relating to Party Political opportunism and potential for State inspired trouble are very true which is why we need to organise to counter it - and your idea about the flyer is a good one.
But drinking in the pub never did anything.

by dt Wed May 08, 2002 13:03

having the moral high ground is all very well, but it is only a slighly better platform than the streets, and unless used effectively it pointless cherishing it. having this slight advantage over the usual perception of 'bad' protestors will just evaporate unless made into a stronger position. we have all seen how quickly a sensation turns into old news. any potential gain from monday must be gained before the world cup squad /elections/ pieces of someones ass etc reclaim their residency on the front pages of the newspapers

by Malcolm Little Wed May 08, 2002 14:01

I am not a little amused by all the claims and counter claims concerning the incident on Monday and the protest which has been called for Thursday.

The cold truth of it is that when this soceity is to be changed all of you middle class liberals who are at present going through your radical phase will have little or nothing to do with it.

The signs of things to come are already evidetn in some of the comments, with certain persons placing emphasis on the need to hod the moral high ground, let the courts and the media sort it out etc. All of these empty suggestions flow from a complete failure to understand the nature of the state.

Although I am no great fan of the SWP i feel their call for a protest was the only appropriate response to the facist actions of An Garda Siochana. If its peacefull all well and good if not well just as good. It is important to expose the state and all its functionaries for what they really are at all times.

The Gardai have been brutalising working class communities for years and they got their just deserts with the Summerhill and Ballyfermot riots a couple of years ago.

The world is moving towards a stage when class distinctions will become sharper and when the working class rise up in the coming social revolution all of you non-political RTSers and narcisistic "lefty's" will be swept aside.

The worknig masses are the only group who will change the world and it won't be wiht street parties or guerilla gardening, nor will it be as a result of the actions of any inconsequential left wing party, it will be their own revolutionart instinct which tears down the whole rottne shell of this decaying soceity in the most violent and ruthless manner.

So why worry, if there is violence at the protest on Thursday it will only be a skirmish before the class war. If you throughly want to change the world why would you be afraid of this?!

POWER TO THE PEOPLE!

by fuinseog Wed May 08, 2002 14:24

"It is important to expose the state and all its functionaries for what they really are at all times."

Exactly. Don't let them pretend they're defending themselves

"The Gardai have been brutalising working class communities for years and they got their just deserts with the Summerhill and Ballyfermot riots a couple of years ago."

And now everything is grand in Summerhill and Ballyer.

"The world is moving towards a stage when class distinctions will become sharper and when the working class rise up in the coming social revolution all of you non-political RTSers and narcisistic "lefty's" will be swept aside."

Well if you know the future why don't you just write it all down for us. In the mean time, we intend to enjoy our resistance and hurt no-one.

"So why worry, if there is violence at the protest on Thursday it will only be a skirmish before the class war. If you throughly want to change the world why would you be afraid of this?!"

Oh, that's right war will solve all our problems. We'll just have a war to end wars and after that well have a brave new world.

Your kind of nonsense is essential to the system to justify their repression against alternatives and resistance. I consider you to be an agent of that repression whether you intend to do so or not.

by dt Wed May 08, 2002 14:28

the middle class liberals to whom you refer are to be castigated why?
im from a famously working class area myself and none of the lads I grew up with have ever been on a march with me, tried as i have to get them to come along. One argument about the the middle class liberals is that they are only going through a phase and will return to the family business in their post college years. This however may be a petty accuastion arrived at through jealousy. If one really cares about social injustice shouldnt one embrace these liberals during their radical phase and thank them for perpetuating struggle until the working classes that everyone is claiming to want to save, wake up and actually save themselves. Few abolutionists werent educated white boys, and the French revolution had its origins as much in Universities as it had in the fields. The peolpe in large working class areas have put up with an unfriendly police prescence for decades now while the media didnt give a shit. We have a chance to highlight some rather unsavoury elements of what is poloice policy, lets utilise the moment and thank the supposed 'middle class liberals' who brought their cameras along.

by Jules Bonnot Wed May 08, 2002 15:53

Firstly, It comes as no surprise that the swp are making their predictable attempts to highjack this situation to their own ends. It is important that RTS do not end up coat trailing them. I don't believe that any agreement with them concerning Thursday's action will be honoured (these people are electioneering) As it happens they do seem to have stolen a march and RTS have no option but to react. Therefore it's very important to get as many people down there on thursday as possible. If those who have cases pending feel unable to attend then I respect that decision. But if this movement is to remain vanguardless then numbers are important.
The second point is addressed to Malcolm "The future belongs to those of us still willing to get our hands dirty" Little and those who would agree with him. Any attempts to play at street fighter will be disastrous. As it stands the police are rightly perceived as the bully boys and perceptions are important at this stage. This is not the time or the place for violent confrontation.

by Malcol Little Wed May 08, 2002 16:27

The righteous indignation displayed by some of the replys to my earlier comments, in particular fuinseog and dt, have moved me to respond.

I was most impressed by fuinseog's use of sarcasm 'everythings allright in summerhill and ballyer'. DT's, no doubt well meaning, support for the middle classes is to a degree understandable, but please comrade bear in mind that during the 'radical 60's' MI 5 held a file on Jack Straw and Charlie Bird made many a clenched fist salute. Not to mention that Jospin was the finest of French Trotskites!

If we do not learn from the past we are bound to repeat it, the middle class liberals, with their reformist tendencies, are a threat to working class progress, as the Paris Commune abley demonstrated.

In one fail swoop fuinseog, who accused me of being a (albeit unwitting) colaborator with the state revealed his true nature. "we intend to enjoy our resistance', never was the attitude of middle class fadists better ennunciated.

Finally to the issue of war, do u imagine that the fadist, ostrich style, resistance which Fuinseog espouses will achieve anyhting. If i pretend capitalism is not exploiting the working classes and raping the planet it will go away. Do u imagine the old world order which enriches so many infulential buisness men and politicians will go without a fight?

In the final analysis i must thank you for your comments as they have reaffirmed me in my beleifs(oh and not for nothing I too come from one of Roddy Doyles famouse working class areas, and it is the nature of the beast itself that people in these areas do not go on demos etc, as they have more pressing concerns. Which is exactly why anyone who wants to change the world must begin the process of education and organisation n these very areas!)

by shamey Wed May 08, 2002 16:33

Go out and get a job and you wont have time to worry about reclaiming streets.People like you are parasites on our society if you dont like it move to a blasket island and give us all a break from your ultra left wing commie claptrap.

by moose Wed May 08, 2002 19:49

Fuck reclaim the streets, its gone now.

The protest on thursday is not about "reclaim the streets" its about garda violence.

So see ya all on pierce street.

by shakkow Wed May 08, 2002 23:51

For you're information,most of us believe in what the rts stands for and made an effort to be there.Personally I took the day off WORK (+ lost double pay)to be there.So stop slagging people you obviously know nothing about.

by dt Thu May 09, 2002 12:12

none of shameys post that you responded to made any sense, dont bother dignify it with an answer, especially one with such emotion. save your breath for real opposition with real arguments, for there are many. peace .