Alternative Budget

by Tom Craven Wed Dec 03, 2003 17:30

I tried the link and got "404 page not found"

Sinn Fein are also one of the few parties with the resources to produce such a document. Pity about their right wing politics.

by Allen - lp Wed Dec 03, 2003 18:05

From the dicourse on Indymedia, it seems the general view is that SF, LP, SP, GP are all right wing.

What about the CPI?

by gangler Wed Dec 03, 2003 18:16

The CPI are stalinist bastards. They are responsible for the butchering of thousends of workers in Spain. They support Stalins gulags which saw the murder of thousands of left activists, socialists, anarchists, trotskyists and ethnic minorities.

by matt Wed Dec 03, 2003 18:30

Read the fucking budget submission Pamela and decide whether SF are left wing or not. And try and get over your jealousy and disappointment at the fact that SF have become the largest and most powerful left wing party EVER in the history of this country, and its not over by a long shot.

by mangler Wed Dec 03, 2003 18:31

Support mass murder under Trotsky 1917 - 1921. They think North Korea is a Workers State.

by Raimon de Perelhos Thu Dec 04, 2003 05:14

It tells me all I need to know about this group. You can buy a "Sinn Féin mug", very nice.

However, they're also selling "POW Bodhráns" which have been made by terrorists imprisoned for violent crimes. Among the designs on these bodhráns is a depiction of a "firing party" with rifles raised in the air.

Who in their right mind would give thier vote to a group like this. Not until they cease their ambivalence towards murder as a means of furthering their political interests will I even consider voting Sinn Féin.

They make me physically sick.

by Allen Thu Dec 04, 2003 09:24

I'm sure most of the contributers to IM would agree that it is better to be anti-capitalist than a neo-liberal party like the LP, SF or the Greens?

At least the CPI atempted to united the working class in the North, unlike SF!

by bobby Thu Dec 04, 2003 13:35 fiddleodiddle99 at hotmail dot com

Since when are Sinn Fein a Left Wing Party?
Is this the same Sinn Fein that acted as the political wing of an organization that murdered thoudsands of innocent people for thirty years???

Its hard to say you are for the workers when youre busy murdering them wouldnt you say?

by Hebe Thu Dec 04, 2003 13:58

What thousands of workers? You obviously know nothing about Ireland. Maybe you think British Soldiers and RUC were workers in uniform?

Its a bit sick that you should come out with this on the 32nd anniversary of the McGurks Bar massacre carried out by the UVF.

04 December 1971 Philomena McGurk (46) Catholic
Status: Civilian (Civ), Killed by: Ulster Volunteer Force (UVF)
Killed in bomb attack on McGurk's bar, North Queen Street, New Lodge, Belfast.
04 December 1971 Marie McGurk (14) Catholic
Status: Civilian (Civ), Killed by: Ulster Volunteer Force (UVF)
Killed in bomb attack on McGurk's bar, North Queen Street, New Lodge, Belfast.
04 December 1971 James Cromie (13) Catholic
Status: Civilian (Civ), Killed by: Ulster Volunteer Force (UVF)
Killed in bomb attack on McGurk's bar, North Queen Street, New Lodge, Belfast.
04 December 1971 John Colton (49) Catholic
Status: Civilian (Civ), Killed by: Ulster Volunteer Force (UVF)
Killed in bomb attack on McGurk's bar, North Queen Street, New Lodge, Belfast.
04 December 1971 Thomas McLaughlin (55) Catholic
Status: Civilian (Civ), Killed by: Ulster Volunteer Force (UVF)
Killed in bomb attack on McGurk's bar, North Queen Street, New Lodge, Belfast.
04 December 1971 David Milligan (52) Catholic
Status: Civilian (Civ), Killed by: Ulster Volunteer Force (UVF)
Killed in bomb attack on McGurk's bar, North Queen Street, New Lodge, Belfast.
04 December 1971 James Smyth (58) Catholic
Status: Civilian (Civ), Killed by: Ulster Volunteer Force (UVF)
Killed in bomb attack on McGurk's bar, North Queen Street, New Lodge, Belfast.
04 December 1971 Francis Bradley (61) Catholic
Status: Civilian (Civ), Killed by: Ulster Volunteer Force (UVF)
Killed in bomb attack on McGurk's bar, North Queen Street, New Lodge, Belfast.
04 December 1971 Thomas Kane (49) Catholic
Status: Civilian (Civ), Killed by: Ulster Volunteer Force (UVF)
Killed in bomb attack on McGurk's bar, North Queen Street, New Lodge, Belfast.
04 December 1971 Kathleen Irvine (53) Catholic
Status: Civilian (Civ), Killed by: Ulster Volunteer Force (UVF)
Killed in bomb attack on McGurk's bar, North Queen Street, New Lodge, Belfast.
04 December 1971 Philip Garry (75) Catholic
Status: Civilian (Civ), Killed by: Ulster Volunteer Force (UVF)
Killed in bomb attack on McGurk's bar, North Queen Street, New Lodge, Belfast.
04 December 1971 Edward Kane (29) Catholic
Status: Civilian (Civ), Killed by: Ulster Volunteer Force (UVF)
Killed in bomb attack on McGurk's bar, North Queen Street, New Lodge, Belfast.
04 December 1971 Edward Keenan (69) Catholic
Status: Civilian (Civ), Killed by: Ulster Volunteer Force (UVF)
Killed in bomb attack on McGurk's bar, North Queen Street, New Lodge, Belfast.
04 December 1971 Sarah Keenan (58) Catholic
Status: Civilian (Civ), Killed by: Ulster Volunteer Force (UVF)
Killed in bomb attack on McGurk's bar, North Queen Street, New Lodge, Belfast.
04 December 1971 Robert Spotswood (38) Catholic
Status: Civilian (Civ), Killed by: Ulster Volunteer Force (UVF)
Killed in bomb attack on McGurk's bar, North Queen Street, New Lodge, Belfast.

by matt Thu Dec 04, 2003 14:17

and murdered by the same organisation - UVF/PUP that the SP is so fond of.

by rury Fri Dec 05, 2003 01:14

So Matt, if the UVF did wrong then that excuses the IRA? Is this what you are saying?

The fact is that the IRA, regardless of its intentions, engaged in tactics that alienated Protestant and British workers which only further fostered sectarian division in the North.

SF and the IRA are not left wing. As has been stated above by others they have implemented cuts when in the executive and have voted for things liek bin tax in the south.

SF do not mobilise on class lines but along nationalist lines. My boss is also Irish and Catholic does that mean he has more in common withme than my Protestant English co-worker? SF would say yes, you boss is irish, he might be exploiting you but you are compatriots and the English co-worker is a trouble maker and imposter that is taking the job of an unemployed Irish catholic. Nationalism is NOT left wing

by matt Fri Dec 05, 2003 10:33

You are spouting Diaper Marxism. Read a few books and think about them rather than regurgitate the sad worn out slogans of clapped out failed theoreticians like Hadden, who if he was a racing tipster would long since have had the good grace to realise he was in the wrong business and given up. The sort of manichean black and white politics you are talking about don't exist and have never existed outside of the fantasies of the ultra left.

by pat c Fri Dec 05, 2003 11:14

"SF would say yes, you boss is irish, he might be exploiting you but you are compatriots and the English co-worker is a trouble maker and imposter that is taking the job of an unemployed Irish catholic. "

Where have SF ever said or written this? You are making an idiot out of yourself. Some very strange fairy tales are told in the SP.

by Hebe Fri Dec 05, 2003 11:40

Joe Craven
Volunteer - Irish National Liberation Army
Assassinated on 5 December 1983

Aged 26, Joe Craven was assassinated by an Ulster Volunteer Force gunman (claimed under the cover name Protestant Action Force) who opened fire from a motorcycle, killing him and wounding his two brothers as they walked home from the Department of Health and Social Services office in Newtownabbey, Co. Antrim.

At his funeral, the priest refused to accompany the coffin to Milltown Cemetery in West Belfast, where the INLA were to provide
military honours.

The Royal Ulster Constabulary moved in, trying to prevent the display of a black beret and gloves atop the coffin outside the Craven home, and clashes occurred between the mourners and the RUC. The family
refused to bring the coffin out until the "security" forces moved back. When they finally did move away, the coffin was brought back out, but the RUC immediately moved in again. Two men were arrested in the
subsequent scuffle.

The coffin was eventually carried away by mourners with the beret, gloves, and Starry Plough flag on top.

He died as he lived: a Republican Socialist. Remember him with honour and pride.

http://www.irsm.org/fallen/craven/

by rury Fri Dec 05, 2003 13:09

Pat I am not actually quoting SF, sorry if I gave that impression. What I am saying is that that is the natural conclusion of nationalism. Nationalism believes that the nation is of significant importance to class. All nationalists to some extent or another believe that unity with Irish capitalists should come about before unity of class. SF have a '2 stage theory', they believe that we should have a united Ireland with the encouragement of Irish industry (ie Irish capitalists) BEFORE workers fight for Socialism.

by pat c Fri Dec 05, 2003 13:52

but the reality is that the attitudes you ascribe to SF are those held by loyalists towards catholics? have you any idea of how catholics were discriminated against in employment under the stormont regime? catholics are still disproportionly unemployed in the North.

SF has never suggested that protestants or English people should be discriminated against. can you provide any example where SF supported irish capitalists against english workers.

i'm no longer a leninist, but someone coming from you perspective could do worse than read Lenin & Trotskys writings on Nationalism , Colonialism and Imperialism. Then you wouldnt be spouting such infantile disorderly statements.

"The revolutionary tradition of the national struggle is a precious good."
Leon Trotsky, 6 June 1936. (From his letter to Nora Connolly O'Brien)


"The British Socialist who fails to support by all positive means the uprising in Ireland, Egypt and India against the London plutocracy - such a Socialist deserves to be branded with infamy if not with a bullet, but in no case merits either a mandate or the confidence of the proletariat."
Leon Trotsky 7 August 1920.

by rury Fri Dec 05, 2003 15:22

I am not saying that SF are in favour of discrimination against English workers, I ws exaggerating to make a point. But this is the logical conclusion of Nationalism. Nationalists see ones nationality as being more important that class. SF do see nationality and the nation as being more important than class, athough I must say that they are not as bad as FF, FG or ultra right wing nationalists. SF are fighting for a united Ireland primarily. they see Socialism as something that can be fought for AFTER a united Ireland and that bring it up now will only divide up the nationalist movement (ie divide Irish worker from Irish capitalist)

by Trotwatch Wed Dec 10, 2003 12:04

The way the SP have to attack anyone who remotely disagrees with them. Stephen Boyd and tintin attack gayz because they have the nerve to organise a social for Ivana Bacik. Of course all gayz should vote for the SP because they are the rrrevvvolutionaries! Only hs seems to have a smidgen of sense and I fear he is not in their leadership. But at least he is prepared to openly disagree with Boyd and tintin (is that Oisin or Finghin?).

Here SF is portrayed in stark Black and White which has little to do with reality. So many of the SY/SP spout slogans, they dont make arguments. Regurgitating tracts is not the sign of a free or educated mind. What sort of political education is given to the SY

How can common sense be brought back to Indymedia? Could people stay on topic, not raise a litany of past arguments every time an opponent raises his or her head. Why do you have to paint your opponents as monsters?

You are making rational debate impossible

by tintin Wed Dec 10, 2003 17:14

Neither myself or Stephen Boyd attacked the LGBT community. Please go back and have a read of what was actually written instead of reading what you would like to read.

by Indymedia Ireland Editorial (1 of) - Indymedia Ireland Wed Dec 10, 2003 17:17

DO NOT FEED THE TROLLS

by zebedy Wed Dec 10, 2003 17:21

Why don't you delete obvious troll postings. Or at least hide them soemwhere.

by pat c Wed Dec 10, 2003 17:23

hs and i had a much more civilised chat on this topic. i think you will find that he has some quibbles with your comments. hs portrayed the sp and its attitude to gayrights in a much better light.

i fear the trolls have started in on the thread since (dont feed them) but you will find the exchange between me & hs at:

http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=62543

by Indymedia Ireland Editorial Group (1 of) - Indymedia Ireland Wed Dec 10, 2003 17:24

.

by Non-troll Wed Dec 10, 2003 17:28

"Me and hs are buddies". (Or something like that)

Delighted for you.
I notice you didn't answer either S. Boyd or Gay Communist. Their replies too detailed for you to deal with?

by pat c Wed Dec 10, 2003 17:35

i am not going back to that thread. i have made my position clear. some of us are capable of moving on. i'll take a chance that you're not a troll:

i think tintin expressed his views in a very crude manner, in a way that was patronising to the lgbt community. i am certain that the sp as a whole have moved on from the 70s/80s attitudes of militant. i am happy to accept the views of hs as representing those of the sp.

it should be possible for members of the lgbt to organise a fundraiser for a LP candidate without being pilloried. there is no rational reason why lgbts should vote for the SP when it has no record of work in the lgbt community.

thats it. now go read my exchange with hs if you're really not a troll.

by Interested Wed Dec 10, 2003 17:55

Are you a Socialist?
I know you don't have to answer but you only seem to want to engage with hs.
Why not S Boyd or Gay Communist. You are were quick enough to throw accusations of homophobia around and now seem equally quick in avoiding the points they raised.
It seems to me that you are saying that you will vote for Ivana because of the work she has done for LGBT. I thought you were more than a 'single issue' politico.

"...there is no rational reason why lgbts should vote for the SP when it has no record of work in the lgbt community."

Even though you have said otherwise, this argument still seems to imply that it would have been alright for the Dutch version of the lgbt to vote for Pym Fortune.

by pat c Wed Dec 10, 2003 18:13

only a moron would compare bacik to a racist/fascist. if you really cant see the difference then you are in need of help.

what part of thats it do you not understand? i have made my position clear.

no troll off.

by Ex Militant Wed Dec 10, 2003 18:28

His attitudes have not changed since the old Militant days. He would still see womens and gay campaigns as being a diversion from the real workers struggle. He would also carry the baggage of casual indifference to these issues. When I was in Militant you would get throw away remarks about arssebandits, even from those in the leadership bodies. This as well as totally down playing the importance of the questions.

There was never any attempt from the fulltimers or CC to combat this abuse which stemmed from a minority. Militant was indeed a cold house if you were not a straight class warrior. I wish the younger people like hs luck ( I presume he is young) but you will get nowhere as long as you have these unreconstructed monkeys on your back.

Its sad to think that some of the youth are so turned by the old guard that they will perpetuate nonsensical attitudes. Oh, why must you still believe that salvation can only be found through the ranks of the CWI.

by Bi Wed Dec 10, 2003 19:03

Do the SP agree with this libelling of Ivana Bacik? Do they really believe its correct to suggest that a vote for her should be regarded as the same as a vote for Pim.

Look at another parallel observation: Natzis herded gays into camps, so did Socalists in Russia, Cuba, Korea. Therefore they are the same. A vote for the SP is a vote for Natzis.
If the Pim/Bacik line makes sense, then this does.

Why should we expect anything different if you were elected? Your contempt for democracy and the boasts of how you would ban all opposition parties are well documented on your SY Notoiceboard. Your arrogance has convinced me more than ever of the need for Democratic Socialsm. If you were in power I would probably be in a camp for dissidents along with the much maligned IMC Editors.

by Magneto Wed Dec 10, 2003 19:49

Is what its really about. The SP members who post on Indymedia (with a coupla exceotions) do not accept that you have the right to differ with them. Let alone that you might be right. Therefore when a group of people organise a Quiz for Ivana they must be assailed. They must be re-educated into the correct position of support for the SP.

How do the SP carry out this re-education? Why they simply state that Labour will inevitibly scapegoat gays in the event of a crisis! So the only road to salvation lies in voting for the SP! Just like that! London has spoken!

It should be possible to hold different opinions and debate those differences in a rational manner. When someone merely repeats formulas learned from a pamphlet that is not possible.

Of course the SP will now prove me wrong by demanding that I answer 20 questions which have already been answered 20 times on 20 different threads. Why not at least quit that, it doesnt get either of us anywhere.

by tintin Wed Dec 10, 2003 21:00

Hang on a second Magneto, please actually READ what I said. Nowhere did i say that the Lp WILL scapegoat the LGBT community. What I said was that capitalism always looks for some minority in the working class to scapegoat. It could be LGBT's it could be Africans, Travellers, Romanians, single mothers... Labour are a capitalist party they will cutback in public services and atack workers rights, it is capitalism that deepens and fosters division and hatred against minorities. I am NOT saying that the LP are directly responsible for discrimination but that capitalism is.

I acknowledged that many in the Labour PArty have got very good records in the LGBT movement. I would presume Ivana Bacik does also. This is NOT libelling her.

You accuse me of being patronising. This is rubbish. I would contend that someone saying that LGBT's should vote for Labour because they have a few activists in the community is patronising. It is the same as saying that in Holland they shoudl vote for List Pim Fortuyn despite him having right wing neo liberal policies. A homosexual worker has more in common with is heterosexual fellow worker than he/she has with a homosexual capitalist. Those in the LGBT community should vote along the same lines as anyone else in society, ie which party will fight the most effectivly on class issues. Why should a gay worker vote Labour if he is against social partnership and the Nice Treaty?

Now, Magneto before you go off on another troll fest could you please answer the questions asked of you on this thread http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=62483&search_text=starry%20plough

by Magneto Sun Dec 14, 2003 19:02

Somehow in my travails, I missed this missive from tintin. History speaks for itself, every Leninist Regime without fail has discriminated against and scapegoated gays. Be it in Russia, China , Poland, Cuba or even what you have the neck to still call a Workers State, N Korea, gays ended up in camps, in prison and in psychiatric hospitals.

Given this evidence why should any gay vote for the SP? Also, given that the SP have no active record in the LGBT community why should the SP get votes?

I have answered your questions many times over so stop trolling. I could easily raise a list for you to answer, but what would be the point? Do you not realise that people think it is trolling to fight the same battle time after time?

by tintin Mon Dec 15, 2003 01:47

What existed in the USSR, Eastern Europe, China, Cuba etc was and is NOT socialism and is NOT Leninism. The SP NEVER ever sadi that these societies were workers paradises. What they were and are are brutal and viscious dictatorships, they are not democratic. There existed discrimination against minority ethnic groups and homosexuals - This has NEVER been denied by the SP. The SP called for a political revolution in the USSR and all Stalinst countries. Why Magneto do you continue to choose to deliberatly mislead, lie and throw mud? You're a troll.

BTW
I think it is quite ironic that a member of the Labour party is lecturing a Trotskyist organisation about the crimes of Stalinism. Labour leaders like the rest of the capitalist establishment were always very willing to cozy up to the Stalinist bureacrats when it suited them. Pat Rabbitte was also a hardened Stalinist. Do you remember when the Workers Party supported by Rabbitte used to pass resolutions at their conferences congratulating their 'comrades' in the Stalinist leadership and accepting 'fraternal' delegates from Moscow, Beijing, Pnong Phen, Bucharest etc. You are a clear and unrepentant hypocrite. At least the SP have a princlpled position.


"Also, given that the SP have no active record in the LGBT community why should the SP get votes?"

These points have been dealt with by Stephen Boyd. The SP does have a record on these issues. Unfortunately dues to the fact the SP are a relativly small force thse issues have not been given the attention they deserve. But Magneto what do you propose? Do you think that the SP should have abandoned our work in the bin tax or in the unions?


Magneto you are the troller. You deliberatle misrepresent the position of the SP. You know what you say are lies but you continiue with it. At least I have not lied about the positions of the Labour Party re Nice, Social Partnership, Bin Tax, Shannon....

by Magneto - Labour Party Mon Dec 15, 2003 12:18

"What existed in the USSR, Eastern Europe, China, Cuba etc was and is NOT socialism and is NOT Leninism. The SP NEVER ever sadi that these societies were workers paradises. What they were and are are brutal and viscious dictatorships, they are not democratic. "

They were Leninist Regimes and the SP is a Leninist Party, why should we believe that you would be any different bin government. Given the internal regime of the CWI, we can only fear the worse. John Throne, Denis Tourish and Marc Mulholland have written at length on the undemocratice nature of the internal regime and the treatment of dissidents.

If the CWI carry on like this now, how would they act if they ever had any real power.


"I think it is quite ironic that a member of the Labour party is lecturing a Trotskyist organisation about the crimes of Stalinism. Labour leaders like the rest of the capitalist establishment were always very willing to cozy up to the Stalinist bureacrats when it suited them. "

And the CWI described the USSR erc as Workers States, this while workers were in gulags and trade unions were suppressed. The SP still has the neck to call North Korea a Workers State.

"Pat Rabbitte was also a hardened Stalinist. Do you remember when the Workers Party supported by Rabbitte used to pass resolutions at their conferences congratulating their 'comrades' in the Stalinist leadership and accepting 'fraternal' delegates from Moscow, Beijing, Pnong Phen, Bucharest etc. "

Pat Rabbitte admits that he was wrong to do so. None of your members will admit they wrong in their characterisation of the "Socialist" States.

"You are a clear and unrepentant hypocrite. At least the SP have a princlpled position."

No you are the hypocrites, you have never admitted you were wrong toi call monstrosities like Albania, Romania and Cambodia Workers States. You still call North Korea a Workers State. Some principle!


"Also, given that the SP have no active record in the LGBT community why should the SP get votes?"

"These points have been dealt with by Stephen Boyd. "

No they havent. He gave his personal cv of involvement which took place many years ago.

"The SP does have a record on these issues. Unfortunately dues to the fact the SP are a relativly small force thse issues have not been given the attention they deserve. "

You have no active record in the LGBT community over the last numbr of years. There is no point lying about it.

"But Magneto what do you propose? Do you think that the SP should have abandoned our work in the bin tax or in the unions? "

The very fact that you couch it in these shows that there are still members of the SP/CWI who see the LGBT question as some kind of diversion from the "real struggle".


"Magneto you are the troller. You deliberatle misrepresent the position of the SP. "

No, I have not. I have pointed out the record of all Leninist regimes. I have shown that the SP have no current record of activity in the LGBT community.

"At least I have not lied about the positions of the Labour Party re Nice, Social Partnership, Bin Tax, Shannon...."

You have lied, and you have been answered 20 times, you just dont like the answers. By continually raising the same set of questions you are exposing yourself as a Troll.

I hope that some day you will escape from the SP/CWI Cult and be rstored to sanity.

by tintin Mon Dec 15, 2003 19:15

There are two possibilities. 1- You are genuinly ignorant of the position of the CWI/SP and of Trotskyism re the ex USSR or 2. You are deliberatly misrepresenting the position of the CWI/SP.

In any case I think I need to clarify a few things. THe SP has NEVER classified the Stalinist states of the ex USSR, North Korea, China, Cuba, Vietnam etc as socialist states. They were/are undemocratic rotten and corrupt regimes run by a bureacratic elite. The SP calls for a political REVOLUTION in these countries to overthrow these disgusting bureacracies and bring in workers democracy. Neither is it the case that the SP classified the Stalinist states as 'workers states' they were/are classified as 'DEFORMED workers states' or in the case of the USSR a 'DEGENERATED workers state'. I highlighted the deformed and degenerated as this is important. these states were not workers paradises, they were not socialism. What the CWI/SP defends is the planned and state owned nature of the economy NOT the rotten bureacratic leaders.

This position is explained in some depth in the publications of the SP and CWI, Magneto why don't you go and have a read of what the SP position actually is.

Magneto, maybe you could please inform us of the position of the Labour Party regarding Stalinism. Do you have any documents on the issue? If not why not?

The workers party/ Rabitte and co were Stalinist apologists. Regularly they passed resolutions praising Kim Il Song and their 'comrades' in the North Korean CP. No section of the CWI has ever had such a position, the CWI and Trotskyism in general has always held a principled opposition to Stalinism, unlike the oppurtunists in Social Democracy and the stalinist apologists like Rabbitte.

by Magneto Wed Dec 17, 2003 12:42

(For some reason my reply was deleted. If it was off topic then surely the tintin points I responded to were also OT)

"In any case I think I need to clarify a few things. THe SP has NEVER classified the Stalinist states of the ex USSR, North Korea, China, Cuba, Vietnam etc as socialist states. They were/are undemocratic rotten and corrupt regimes run by a bureacratic elite. "

You called them workers states and called for defence of the gains of October. The only ones who gaoned from October were the new Ruling Class of apparatchiks.


"Magneto, maybe you could please inform us of the position of the Labour Party regarding Stalinism. Do you have any documents on the issue? If not why not?"

Are you seriously trying to suggest the LP is pro Stalinist? Its the SP who call North Korea a Workers State.

"The workers party/ Rabitte and co were Stalinist apologists. Regularly they passed resolutions praising Kim Il Song and their 'comrades' in the North Korean CP. "

Rabitte has fully and in public accepted that he was wrong about the Stalinist States. You still call N Korea a Workers State.

Most of the members of the ISN were also in the WP. Do you raise these points with them? If not why not?

by tintin Wed Dec 17, 2003 17:58

"For some reason my reply was deleted. If it was off topic then surely the tintin points I responded to were also OT)"

My reply seems to have been deleted also. I take it that you did not read my reply as I had dealt with most of the points that you raised again.

"You called them workers states and called for defence of the gains of October. The only ones who gaoned from October were the new Ruling Class of apparatchiks."

No we called the Deformed and Degenerated workers states. There is a CRUCIAL difference. As I made clear they were not workers paradises despite what was claimed by the ex-stalinist apologists that are now in the Labour Party leadership. Yes we said 'Defend the gains of october'. Look at Cuba for example. It is clearly an undemocratic and authoritarian single party state, we call for a political revolution to overthrow Castro and his clique and bring in workers democracy. What we defend is the state owned and planned nature of the economy which undoubtedly has brouhgt massive gains in living standards for the Cuban people. Look at their health, education and social welfare systems, they would not be around if the revolution did not happen and the landlords and multinationals still ruled in Cuba. The SP makes no apologies in defending these gains. It seems as though you would cheer on capitalist restoration in Cuba? Would you support US troops with 'UN backing'invading Cuba, bringing 'democracy' and smashing the state owned economy? It seems as though you would.


"re you seriously trying to suggest the LP is pro Stalinist? Its the SP who call North Korea a Workers State."

I am NOT claiming that the Lp are stalinists. What I am saying is that the LP and social democracy in generlal does not have a consistant and principled opposition to stalinism. Social democratic parties accross Europe were always willing to cozy up to the butcher Stalin when it suited them.

"abitte has fully and in public accepted that he was wrong about the Stalinist States. "

He may have now turned his back on his comrades in North Korea, who he described as socialists, but that just shows the oppurtunism of Rabbite. Whether Rabbite is stalinsit or not he is still no friend of the working class. His leadership is one of the most right wing and Blairite in the history of the LP. He is on the record as favouring PPP/PFI's for building schools, hospitals, roads etc. He favours social partnership, coalition with the FF/FG/PD parties, the Nice Treaty/ Euro constitution, he condemned the bin tax campaign and called on people to pay the tax while residents got beaten up and dragged off their own streets by cops.

"Most of the members of the ISN were also in the WP. Do you raise these points with them? If not why not?"

They were not all in the WP, but some were.
I know that many members of the SP have brought this up with them.

Now Magneto can you please sstop repeating yourself and throwing up the same old lies. You are just making a fool of yourself.

by Colm - ISN (personal capacity) Wed Dec 17, 2003 20:19 breathc at hotmail dot com

Magneto is correct to say that most members of the ISN were in the WP (about a decade ago). The implication is that in some way we are apologists or defenders of Kim Jong Il and that the SP are tainted by association. If you read the founding principles of the ISN you will see that we specifically reject the dictatorships that went/go under the name of socialism including North Korea. Our vision of socialism is about working people themselves having power not a dynasty or party for that matter.

Personally, I visited North Korea as a WP member and it had a strong influence on the development of my politics away from Stalinism. I can only say that what I saw was the nearest thing to actual existing fascism I ever experienced. On my return I wrote a paper urging that the WP break all links with NK and develop links with the independent labour movement then struggling against the dictatorship in South Korea. For my sins I incurred the wrath of both the 'pragmatists' who later became the leadership of DL (now Magnetos comrades in Labour) for being 'too idealistic' and as well as the Stalinist wing. Surprise, surprise I lost my position on the International Affairs committee the next year!

I am the first to admit that for too long, about five years approx., I was a loyal party man parroting the WP line on the USSR, NK etc. However once I broke with that position I, along with those who are now in the ISN,struggled endlessly to put forward a radical democratic socialist position and to oppose both Stalinism and Social Democracy in the WP and later in either DL or the post split WP. I dont ever recall the current leader of the Labour Party, or any of his ex-DL colleagues playing any role in opposing the WPs links with NK. So in terms of the ISN's position we have nothing to apologise for.

That said the ISN is not a 'democratic centralist' organisation and we do have differences and indeed vigorous debates over the question of the nature of the Cuba/Venezuela etc., which I think all of us would argee is a different debate to that on China/NK

If Magneto is really interested I will send him the founding documents of the ISN so that he can judge for himself.

As for TIntin, I'm not aware of any SP member raising NK with the ISN, in fact I would think that SP members who are familiar with the ISN would know that we have no sympathy with such regimes.

by Peter M Thu Dec 18, 2003 04:25

Don't waste time on Tintin and Magneto. Why take someone with the name of a cartoon character seriously?
The odds are that they are more likely to be members of Fianna Fail or Fine Gael than members of one leftwing faction or another, they seem to be only interested in promoting division on the left.

by Magneto Thu Dec 18, 2003 11:16

I did not intend to suggest that the ISN held any Stalinist sympathies. I was pointing out that the SP were using this to attack Labour because ex WP members were now in its leadership.

Those who openly admit they were wrong should not have to constantly answer to trolls like tintin.

by Magneto Thu Dec 18, 2003 12:02

." As I made clear they were not workers paradises despite what was claimed by the ex-stalinist apologists that are now in the Labour Party leadership. "

Pat Rabitte, Gilmore have fully and in public admitted they were wrong. How many times must I repeat this? You are showing yourself to be a troll by repeating your smears.

"Look at Cuba for example. It is clearly an undemocratic and authoritarian single party state. What we defend is the state owned and planned nature of the economy which undoubtedly has brouhgt massive gains in living standards for the Cuban people."

no it has not raised living standards. Only a loon would argue that. Side by side with empty ordinary shops are the dollar shops exclusive to tourists and party members.

"Look at their health, education and social welfare systems, they would not be around if the revolution did not happen and the landlords and multinationals still ruled in Cuba. "
That is an advance worth praising.

" It seems as though you would cheer on capitalist restoration in Cuba?"

No, I wouldnt . I believe that Cuba is a State Capitalist Society but I do not want to see the State Capitalist property handed over to "normal" capitalists.

"Would you support US troops with 'UN backing'invading Cuba, bringing 'democracy' and smashing the state owned economy? It seems as though you would."

I dont understand how you could read this into what I wrote. I would defend Cuba agasinst imoperialist aggression. I oppose the economic blockade. But I dont think it is any sort of a Workers State.

"Social democratic parties accross Europe were always willing to cozy up to the butcher Stalin when it suited them."

They also carried on a Cold War against the Stalinists. But come on, I also oppose anything that would have brought the planet to the brink of war as of course would you. I dont think this strand of debate is getting either of us anywhere.


"He may have now turned his back on his comrades in North Korea, who he described as socialists, but that just shows the oppurtunism of Rabbite. "

But if you are going to criticise Rabitte on the one hand foe being a Stalinist in the past and on the other call him an opportunist for rejecting Stalinism you are not being very logical.


"He is on the record as favouring PPP/PFI's for building schools, hospitals, roads etc. He favours social partnership, coalition with the FF/FG/PD parties, the Nice Treaty/ Euro constitution, he condemned the bin tax campaign and called on people to pay the tax while residents got beaten up and dragged off their own streets by cops."

Militant stayed in Labour during 3 Coalition Governments. A State company Irish Shipping was dissolved and the workers thrown on the streets. Emergency Power Acts were passed. ESB strikers were arrested under the Offences Against the State Act. People died due to hospital closures. Pay rises due to Public Service Workers were with held. Yellow pack workers were brought into the civil service.

There is no difference between Labour now and Labour during the 15 years Militant/SP were in it. I oppose any anti-progressive policies in Labour just as Militant/SP did when they were there.

"ISN
They were not all in the WP, but some were.
I know that many members of the SP have brought this up with them. "

What , do you expect to perform penance? Is it not enough that they admit they were wrong in the past?

"Now Magneto can you please sstop repeating yourself and throwing up the same old lies"

You are the one who is repeating and appears to be suffering from Tourettes.

." You are just making a fool of yourself."
You are the one who insists that N Korea amnd China are Workers States. You are the fool.

I hope that one day you will escape from the SP/CWI Cult and be restored to sanity.

by SP member Thu Dec 18, 2003 19:29

Time and again you refer to Miltant being in the Labour Party in the past as a defence of your continued membership. By implication you compare the way you oppose non progressive policies in the Labour Party of today with Militant's critique of the leadership and their coalition policies of the past.

However there is a big difference. You may oppose this or that policy but what are you doing to ORGANISE against the leadership? Militant was expelled because first and foremost it was an organised and coordinated opposition. It grew continiously in the 70s right up to the mid to late eighties because obviously it held some appeal particularly amongst the youth.

What form does your oppositon take Magneto? Is it that you get up at branch meetings and conferences? Do you try get motions passed? Do you link up in any way with likeminded people?

by Magneto Thu Dec 18, 2003 19:46

My point is that the Labour Party now is no different from the LP when Militant were in it. If it was ok for the CWI to spend 15 yrs in the LP then I can be allowed a bit longer to see if I am right or wrong.

You know that there are those of us in Labour who oppose the leadership. I am not going to identify myself for you.

Anyway, you must be upset now that Dermot Connolly has left. I am sure that you are worried that after a while he will start talking and add to the revelations about the tyranny that passes for internal party life in the SP. Throne, Tourish and Mulholland could soon have a new partner.

by SP member Thu Dec 18, 2003 20:06

One line of your reply makes a passing reference to opposition in the Labour Party of today but of course you can't elaborate in case we identify you and that just wouldn't do.
How convenient!!

by Magneto Thu Dec 18, 2003 20:17

To ignore comments about Dermot Connolly.

I was with GNAW at the police lines in Shannon when Joe Higgins was describing us as Virtual Warriors. You did a lot of sucking uo to Labour rightwingers in IAWM. How come you dont have a problem with Rabbitte & Gilmore in iAWM?

Are you guys for real? Why do you have an obsession with the Labour Party? Do you want to come back in? The SP works with Labour in a lot of different campaigns. If you really believe Labour are such traitors why do you do so?

by CWI Left Opposition (External Faction) Thu Dec 18, 2003 20:23

They try to pretend there are no tensions between the Democratic Wing of the SP led by Joe and Clare and the Autocratic Wing led by the Troika. I only hope that Joe & Clare will seize the moment and overthrow the quasi-Stalinist Troika! Down with Boyd, O'Brien and MacLaughlin!

Long live Socialist Democracy!
Rebuild the Fourth International through building Mass Workers Parties!
Follow the lead of the SSP!
Throw out the Troika!

by tintin Fri Dec 19, 2003 05:26

Magneto you are the troll you continue to repeat the same old mistruths again and again and again. Everything that I have said about the LP are facts that are easily verifiable. You have consistantly refused to back up your claims with actual references. You are the clear troll.

Your outragous claim that in Cuba there was no betterment in ;living standards after the revolution is simply crazy and flies in the face of well documented fact. In Cuba under Bastista Cuba was the playgound of US gangsters, crime was rife, the people on the land lived in dire poverty. Prostitution, drug abuse and gambling was pandemic. Look at any book on Cuba it will be there quite clearly. After the revolution the parasitic landlords were kicked off the land and it was given to the people, the multinationals and the corrupt gangster multinationals were booted out of Cuba. There was a social welfare system initiated, health and education became free for all and is now among the best health and education systems in the world. Life in Cuba has definitly improved by the revolution, just compare it to the living standards in similar countries like the Dominican republic or Haiti.

You are right to point to widespread corruption that exists in Cuba. I have never said that Cuba was a paradise. It is ruled by a rotten bureacracy which is not democratic or accountable. That is why I want to see a political revolution in Cuba to kick out Castro and his cronies, so a genuine workers democracy can be established.

As for you being a one man militant in the LP now, you are being plain silly. Lets just for arguments sake take it that the LP is still a workers party and it can be reclaimed (Which is utterly wrong, they have completely sold out and have been transformed into a capitalist party). The Question really is what have you done to ORGANISE an effective and coherent opposition in the LP? Have you contacted other likeminded members? Have you attempted to produce a newsletter for left in the LP? Have you put forward motions at conference? Have you organised in the branches? Of course the answer is that you have not. And if you have you would quickly find that you would be expelled or victimised by the leadership.

As for ISN. You are simply trying to cause needles division and sow mistrust between ISN and the SP. ISN are a group of activists that are justifiably well respected. Among their membership are some of the best most dedicated class fighters in this city. They are not apologists of stalinism. If they ever were they have clearly made a break and support genuine workers democracy. I highlighted Rabbite and Gilmore simply to show that the LP have an unprincipled and ambigious attitude to Stalinism.

As for your references to Dermot, I really don't know what point you are really making there. Actually I think it is highly unfair to simgle out an individual on this site especially when they are not contributers to the site and when you yourself remain anonomous.

by Magneto Fri Dec 19, 2003 11:25

"Magneto you are the troll you continue to repeat the same old mistruths again and again and again. Everything that I have said about the LP are facts that are easily verifiable. You have consistantly refused to back up your claims with actual references. You are the clear troll."

What facts are you talking about. I have now on at least 20 occasions pointed out that LP members were face to face with the cops at Shannon. This has been confirmed by the WSM and independents. The SP were busy sabotaging that demo and Joe Higgins called GNAW virtual warriors. These are facts.

Living conditions in Cuba are little different from those suffered in the barrios of the rest of Latin America. The Health * Education systems are a bit better. But the Political Police in Cuba are far more ferocious than anything you would find in Brazil, Venezuela, Chile etc. Workers face more repression in
Cuba than most of the rest of Latin America.

I am not answerable to you as to how I and my comrades organise in the LP. I think your real intention is to get us to reveal details which LP rightwingers can use against us. How many times do I have to point out the involvement of LP members in DA at Shannon, involvement in anti Nice, opposition to Social Partnership?

How many tiumes must I point out the record of the LP when Militant were preaching that there was no salvation outside of the LP.

"As for ISN. You are simply trying to cause needles division and sow mistrust between ISN and the SP"

No. I am pointing out your inconsistencies. I fully accept that the ISN have broken with Stalinism. Have you no es Stalinists in the SP? Do you make them go through perpetual penance.

"As for your references to Dermot, I really don't know what point you are really making there"

Dermot was THE Leader of the SP for a long time. Surely his departure from the SP is worthy of comment. I imagine you are worried that in the not too distant future he will start spilling the beans about how he was forced out of the General Secretary job and eventually forced out of the party..

by SP member Fri Dec 19, 2003 16:22

"I am not answerable to you as to how I and my comrades organise in the LP"

And yet you and other trolls constantly place demands on the SP to explain this or that perceived sell out. The comrades are right in general not to respond because the accusations are patently absurd. One exception I recall was your disgraceful attack on MOB re the George Maybury affair which in the end he comprehensively replied to.

." I think your real intention is to get us to reveal details which LP rightwingers can use against us".

Doesn't make sense Maggie. If you make a stand on this or that issue within the LP well then surely the right wing know about you. The implication of the above sentence is that you haven't made a stand on these issues or ORGANISED anything.

"How many times do I have to point out the involvement of LP members in DA at Shannon, involvement in anti Nice, opposition to Social Partnership?"

Well we'll just have to take your word on the Shannon and Nice thing. Social Partnership?? However Maggie you are missing the point. As an individual you turn up to this or that event or participate in some campaingns not organised or endorsed by the LP ie outside the structures of the party. What are you doing in the party??

by Magneto Fri Dec 19, 2003 16:54

"And yet you and other trolls constantly place demands on the SP to explain this or that perceived sell out."

Thats because the SP constantly sell out: Shannon in particular, Orange Parades I dont have Tourettes, so I'll leave it at that.

"One exception I recall was your disgraceful attack on MOB re the George Maybury affair which in the end he comprehensively replied to. "

SP members were making a big case of how successfull they were in fighting the right in the PSEU. They were also attacking another left activist because he was not active in the PSEU. All the SP activism resulted in was a Garda getting a job as a official! The PSEU also attacked the Bin Tax prisoners. The SP wasnt so successful in radicalising the PSEU after all.


"Doesn't make sense Maggie. If you make a stand on this or that issue within the LP well then surely the right wing know about you. "

I repeat for the stupid SPer, I am not going to reveal our methods of organisation. When Militant was in Labour they pretended they didnt exist as an organisation, that they were just supporters of the paper.

"The implication of the above sentence is that you haven't made a stand on these issues or ORGANISED anything."

Only a very stupid or very sectarian person would draw those conclusions.


"Well we'll just have to take your word on the Shannon and Nice thing. "

No you dont. The WSM and independents have documented the involvement of LP members at Shannon ,and our involvement in anti Nice activities is well known. You might also of heard of the Labour anti Nice group organised by Roger Cole.

Some LP members support Social Partnership, some oppose it. It is only in Cults that everyone has the same opinion. Even in the SP/CWI Cult there are dissidents but like Dermot Connolly they are forced out.

Now quit your trolling.

by SP Fri Dec 19, 2003 17:49

What proof do you have of DC being forced out or not being able to express his opinions within the party?

And it terms of the PSEU I don't accept your explanation justifies you libelling MO'B. You accused him wrongly of being party to the decision to appoint Maybury when in fact he was no longer on the Exec and when he took the time to give a long explanation and fraternally take up points with Pat C you didn't even have the decency to withdraw your remarks

by Magneto Fri Dec 19, 2003 17:58

Will you never stop?

"What proof do you have of DC being forced out or not being able to express his opinions within the party?"

The dogs in the street know that Dermot was pushed from the GS post. The SP is a "Democratic" Centralist party, Dermot was forced out because he openly challenged the party line. It was made clear to him by the Troika that if he didnt resign he would be expelled.

"MO'B. You accused him wrongly of being party to the decision to appoint Maybury when in fact he was no longer on the Exec he took the time to give a explanation and take up points with Pat C you didn't even have the decency to withdraw your remarks"

The facts are that the SP puppies were raving about the great advances being made in the PSEU by the group led by MOB. Despite all of MOBs work, Maybury got the PSEU job and the PSEU attacked the Bin Tax Campaign. This suggests that MOB did not achieve so much in the PSEU. The loss of his Ex Ctte seat was incidental to my comments. The SP were constantly talking up how the PSEU was moving to the left.

MOB losing his seat is yet more evidence of the fantasy world the SP were living in. The PSEU is obviously an extremely conservative organisation.

by SP member Fri Dec 19, 2003 18:07

What proof do you have of DC being forced out or not being able to express his opinions within the party? None was provided in your above reply. Give me specific instances or documentary evidence not "dogs on the street claptrap"

And it terms of the PSEU I don't accept your explanation justifies you libelling MO'B. You accused him wrongly of being party to the decision to appoint Maybury when in fact he was no longer on the Exec and when he took the time to give a long explanation and fraternally take up points with Pat C you didn't even have the decency to withdraw your remarks.


I don't have any recollection of any outlandish claims being made about the left in the PSEU which by the way is not just MO'B but also includes SWP, ex IWG, ISN and ex SF people. MO'B certainly never overstated it. Go back and read the thread and you will see he gave a balanced appraisal of the state of the PSEU

Oh and will you ever stop you plonker?

by Magneto Fri Dec 19, 2003 18:13

"What proof do you have of DC being forced out or not being able to express his opinions within the party? "

You will soon have it when DC starts posting the truth here. I prophesy it wont be too long before he joins Throne, Tourish and Mulholland as a thorn in your side.


"I don't have any recollection of any outlandish claims being made about the left in the PSEU which by the way is not just MO'B but also includes SWP, ex IWG, ISN and ex SF people. MO'B certainly never overstated it. Go back and read the thread and you will see he gave a balanced appraisal of the state of the PSEU"

Go back and read threads close to that one and you will see the constant attacks by the SP puppies talking up how great MOB was. They never mentioned the other activists. Go on, use the search facility. MOB may not have overstated it, but the SP puppies did.

"Oh and will you ever stop you plonker?"

You are keeping this tiresome debate going with your tourettic lies.

by SP member Fri Dec 19, 2003 18:19

"What proof do you have of DC being forced out or not being able to express his opinions within the party? "

"You will soon have it when DC starts posting the truth here. I prophesy it wont be too long before he joins Throne, Tourish and Mulholland as a thorn in your side"

So the answer is that you have no proof which makes you a trolling liar

In terms of the PSEU you libelled MO'B by accusing him of being party to Maybury's appointment. Him being on or not on the Exec at the time was not incidental but a critical factor in your original disgraceful article. Even if SY where trumpet blowing which I'm not convinced they were, it was no excuse for what you did you liar

by magnetic field Fri Dec 19, 2003 18:27

and you get my own personal prize for clever insidious and destructive trolling in 2003 on IMC - your self conscious use of the word 'tourettes' makes it obvious that you are bright but also that you know in your heart that you are an insidious, destructive and manipulative troll. Who is sending you here? I hope the payback in karma comes to you in full in the new year.

by Sword of truth Fri Dec 19, 2003 18:28

"I don't have any recollection of any outlandish claims being made about the left in the PSEU which by the way is not just MO'B but also includes SWP, ex IWG, ISN and ex SF people. "

I think that should read ex ISN!!!

by Magneto Fri Dec 19, 2003 18:29

"So the answer is that you have no proof which makes you a trolling liar"

Nope. DC let ibe known to people in different organisations that he was not happy at stepping down from the GS post. He was also in open conflict with the SP in the Anti Bin Tax Campaign. He told other activists that he was only holding on in the SP by the skin of his teeth. Soon we will read the truth from DC himself.

Watch this space!

"In terms of the PSEU you libelled MO'B by accusing him of being party to Maybury's appointment."

I said that in spite of all of MOBs supposed activity in the PSEU , Maybury was still appointed. I got it wrong that MOB was still on the EC. But it was known for several weeks before it appeared on Indymedia that Maybury had the PSEU job. How come MOB or his group didnt condemn it until it became public on Indymedia? Were they hoping the whole thing would blow over?

I hope someday you escape from the Cult and are restored to sanity.

by Magneto Fri Dec 19, 2003 18:35

"and you get my own personal prize for clever insidious and destructive trolling in 2003 on IMC - your self conscious use of the word 'tourettes' makes it obvious that you are bright but also that you know in your heart that you are an insidious, destructive and manipulative troll. "

You do seem a bit partisan. It is those who run the CWI/SP Cult who are insidious, destructive and manipulative. John Throne, Denis Tourish and Marc Mulholland have vividly illustrated this. Before too long , Dermot Connolly will be writing a new chapter in the saga here.

"Who is sending you here? I hope the payback in karma comes to you in full in the new year. "

I come here to defend the Labour Left against trolls like you. You are the one who will suffer bad karma for backing up the tyrannical CWI/SP Cult.

by SP member Fri Dec 19, 2003 18:39

You are a verbal contortionist. After being continually challanged you now say that DC said this or that. You have no proof, you are a liar.

In terms of Maybury's appointment what you have said is simply untrue. You have just made it up now. And what's more your posting accused MO'B of actively backing his appointment. If you were a sincere journalist for indymedia you would have done your research and rung MO'B for a comment and who knows you may have been able to do an informed critiique. But no, you rushed to indymedia to make false accusations.

by Magneto Fri Dec 19, 2003 18:41

In the real world the SP cannot bully non members into silence. You are just making a fool of yourself. I have answered all of your points repeatedly.

I hope that some day you are restored to sanity and escape from the CWI Cult.

by SP member Fri Dec 19, 2003 18:45

Your getting all cranky because I won't let you away with your lying. I hope this episode illustrates to everybody what a nasty sneaky liar Magneto is. He employs standards of journalism that are well beneath that of even the mainstream press.

by tintin Fri Dec 19, 2003 18:54

Yes there was a handful of LP members at the fence on March 1st. At most there was 3. But it was the LP that day that did the sabotaging. The Lp instructed its members not to go to shannon and the party leadership in conjunction with the GP and SF held a seperate 'vigil' in Dublin. This played massivly into the medias hands and allowed anti war protesters to be seen in a very bad light. This was done deliberatly by the LP.

All the LP's rightwing positions are easily verifiable. Every charge I have laid against the LP is documented fact, if I wanted I could get press releases, manifestoes, media coverage, statements etc etc where the various sell outs of the Lp is clear. Everything you charge the SP with is nothing but gossip, innuendo, slurs and mistruths not documented FACT. You are a troll.

"Living conditions in Cuba are little different from those suffered in the barrios of the rest of Latin America. The Health * Education systems are a bit better. But the Political Police in Cuba are far more ferocious than anything you would find in Brazil, Venezuela, Chile etc. Workers face more repression in
Cuba than most of the rest of Latin America."

The living conditions are not just a 'bit' better they are massivly better and would be much better if it were not for the blockade. They have probably the best health system in the world, many of the worlds leading doctors are from Cuba. These are all well documented facts, it is a disgrace that you refuse to recognise this. I am well aware og the repression that goes on in Cuba. Cuba is not a democracy, it is lead by a disgusting bureacratic regime who use very repressive measures against dissidents. This is fact, unlike you I do not deny this. That is why I want to see a political revolution and workers democracy in Cuba.

"I am not answerable to you as to how I and my comrades organise in the LP. I think your real intention is to get us to reveal details which LP rightwingers can use against us. "

I am not saying you are anserable to me but when you come on here claiming to be part of a left wing movement within the LP I don't think it is wrong for me to ask for some evidence of this mysterious 'left wing'. The point is not that there are a few dissidents in the LP but the qiestion is what is being done by yourself and other 'lefts' to oust the leadership and reclaim the LP? If this was being done there would be a newsletter, there would be members organising in the branches and there would be motions and left candidates at conference. Of course there is none of this and nothing is being done to create a left wing in the LP. And as for exposing you to the right wing leadership, that is bollocks. If a left wing did develop in the Lp that would be a positive thing, why would I want it to be smashed? In any case if you were active in trying to reclaim the Lp you would be well known to the right wing anyhow.

Now Magneto please stop your trolling you are simply just making a fool of yourslef and the LP.
BTW
Tourettes is a serious illness, it shouldn't be laughed at lightly.

by magnetic fields Fri Dec 19, 2003 19:39

Magneto: "You do seem a bit partisan. It is those who run the CWI/SP Cult who are insidious, destructive and manipulative. "

Partisan? No I'm not . I am a regular reader of the Indymedia site who sees it as an important part of a necessary attempt to help the divided extra - parliamentary left get talking and get it's shit together in an autocritical way in this country. The Right is virulent here at present and coherent opposition to their agenda is almost invisible.

I have no particular gra for any of the various political groups that use this site. Only the hope that they get their shit together as a real opposition to the hard right agenda being pursued almost unopposed by the Govt.

It does not take a genius to note that whenever you appear your repetitive uninformative manipulative trolling (about issues which got a full airing here almost a year ago in the main) is directed at alienating the SP and its various members from the rest of the extraparliamentary left - and the rest of the EX-P left from the SP. The SP are by no means perfect but at least they make an attempt to engage positively with other traditions here and elsewhere.

What you are doing is not to start or continue any useful conversation or continue one in an attempt to change minds on either side - you are attempting to keep hostilities brimming over at every opportunity on this website where others are attempting to reflect on working together at the same time as criticising other groups in a fairly full on but ultimately positive way..

Following the money on this one - the instrumental logic behind your actions - would lead me to the conclusion that you have nothing to do with 'Labour Left' beyond this characterisation being a useful disguise. It is obvious you are a pretty intelligent entity and this and the ongoing repetitive nature of your agenda suggests to me that the agenda is being pushed for partisan advantage and as a JOB.

Where I come from your type would come under the general classification of 'stool pigeon'.

magneto: "I come here to defend the Labour Left against trolls like you. You are the one who will suffer bad karma for backing up the tyrannical CWI/SP Cult."

I am not a troll nor am I backing anyoune up on anything. I am questioning your motives and you don't like it.

by Magneto Sat Dec 20, 2003 17:58

"Yes there was a handful of LP members at the fence on March 1st. At most there was 3."
More than that and there were ZERO SP members taking part in DA.

" But it was the LP that day that did the sabotaging. The Lp instructed its members not to go to shannon and the party leadership in conjunction with the GP and SF held a seperate 'vigil' in Dublin. "

It didnt instruct its members, itadvised them, thats the difference between a Tyranny like the SP. The real sabotage was carried out by the SP who spread scare stories about cops shooting into the crowd and the need for medics.

This has been confirmed by the WSM and many independent sources. Why do you keep on lying?

". Everything you charge the SP with is nothing but gossip, innuendo, slurs and mistruths not documented FACT. You are a troll."

No. Its true that you sabotaged the Shannon Demo, your Pro Loyalist position on the North etc etc. This has been dealt with 1,000 times. Why do you insist on having the same debate time after time?

"Living conditions in Cuba are little different from those suffered in the barrios of the rest of Latin America. The Health * Education systems are a bit better. But the Political Police in Cuba are far more ferocious than anything you would find in Brazil, Venezuela, Chile etc. Workers face more repression in
Cuba than most of the rest of Latin America."

" Cuba is not a democracy, it is lead by a disgusting bureacratic regime who use very repressive measures against dissidents. This is fact, unlike you I do not deny this. That is why I want to see a political revolution and workers democracy in Cuba."

You are a deranged liar. All readers have to do is scroll up and see that I condemn the Cuban political police. You really need help.

There is no point in dealing with your ravings. The LP is now no different from the 70s & 80s when Militant were in it.

"Tourettes is a serious illness, it shouldn't be laughed at lightly."

I am not laughing at it. I seriously suspect you suffer from it. Why else would keep raising the same points time after time?

I really hope you get treatment, are restored to sanity and escape from the CWI Cult.

by Magneto Sat Dec 20, 2003 18:10

.


"It does not take a genius to note that whenever you appear your repetitive uninformative manipulative trolling (about issues which got a full airing here almost a year ago in the main) is directed at alienating the SP and its various members from the rest of the extraparliamentary left - and the rest of the EX-P left from the SP. "

What about the constant trolling by the SP against Labour, against SF, against GNAW? Do I not have a right to criticise and respond to the SP attacks?

You are obviously partisan to the SP.

"The SP are by no means perfect but at least they make an attempt to engage positively with other traditions here and elsewhere."

Attack every LP posting is positive? Attacking gays for organising a fund raiser for Bacik is positive? Constantly raising the same list of smears against SF is positive?

What planet are you from?

You are the one whose motives are suspect. You have totally ignored the way the sP trolls are destoying this site. How many times on this thread alone have i pointed out that these issues have been dealt with scores of times?

It is the SP who keep raising the same points and it is obvious you are their supporter. Anyway the SP hacks have a fair idea who I really am!

Where I come from, you would be described as a rather dim party hack who uses a paper thin disguise.

"I am not a troll nor am I backing anyoune up on anything. I am questioning your motives and you don't like it."

Then why do you not question the motives of the SPers who raise the same smears time after time? Surely SF, LP and the Greens should be able to post stories without the SP raising the same long list every time?

If you are not a troll then prove it by criticising the SP attacks.

by Magneto Sat Dec 20, 2003 18:32

In ten different comments on this thread I pointed out to the SP that there was little point in continuinf this ping pong, that all of the points had been dealt with. I also posted

"It should be possible to hold different opinions and debate those differences in a rational manner. When someone merely repeats formulas learned from a pamphlet that is not possible.

Of course the SP will now prove me wrong by demanding that I answer 20 questions which have already been answered 20 times on 20 different threads. Why not at least quit that, it doesnt get either of us anywhere."

Somehow you missed this.

Its worth reading this piece below from a WSM member who while critical of LY/LP does back up my version of what happened at Shannon on 1 March.
[Ed: cut and paste snipped by R Isible. Please do not post cut and pasted material. Just provide the URI. Thanks. ]
http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=62630

by magnetic fields Sat Dec 20, 2003 23:23

you are a troll - and this thread is proof

why don't you guess who I am?

by tintin Sun Dec 21, 2003 21:40

Magneto you are a troll. You continue to keep on bringing up the same old untruthful shite even AFTER it has been dealth with and answered by someone already. You are a troll.

Just on Shannon. Shannon has bee debated agan and again. If anyone want to see the actual position of the SP I'd suggest you go to the supplement to the 'Voice' that was printed at the time. It goes into detail as to why the SP thought DA at that time was not the correct tactic. the SP do not see Da as a principle but as a tactic. the SP have been to the forefront in organising and advocating DA tactics. Look at the SP's role in the Bin Tax struggle for example. The LP did not just oppose the blockade tactic they opposed the whole idea of non payment! In my opinion someone from the LP who refuses to organise against the leadership to come on here adn pontificate about DA is a bit rich.

The LP did sabbotage the MArch 1st demo, the LP pulled out of the demo completely and as the LP is a large establishment party this added massivly to the scare stories in the right wing media, the LP knew that their pulling out would add massivly to the scare but they did it anyhow.

Again Magneto you repeat the lie about the SP bein somehow Loyalist. This is madness, the SP is a socialist class based party. The SP believe in building class unity among all workers in the North. In our manifestos and literature prioduced for the Assembly elections this is quite clear. Please have a read of it, if you think there is any 'loyalism' in it well please bring it up in a proper way with quotes etc. Anything else is trolling.

by PM Mon Dec 22, 2003 04:51

Magneto & Tintin,
Ah, sure isin't there a pair of yiz in it? Yer both trolls, and it looks like everyone else has left to do more important things. If either of ye were genuine socialists ye would not be abusing the facilities provided by indymedia.
http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=62520&condense_comments=false#comment56540
Cut the merde.

by Magneto Mon Dec 22, 2003 11:13

Magnetic Fields has proved he is a troll and very likely a SPer by refusing to criticise the trolling carried out by the SP. I am the one who has suggested we quit this ping-pong.

tintin Tourettes on. I have answered all of your smears 20 times. The SP sabotaged the Shannon demo. Go to the link for comments by the WSM for confirmation. You are just bitter and twisted, because you know Dermot Connolly will come back to haunt you here on Indymedia. I look forward to reading his tales of the SPs internal tyranny.

Sorry Risible, I just wanted to give some back up to my stance. I realise now that the link would have sufficed.

by SP member Mon Dec 22, 2003 11:57

But I'll have my eye on you Magneto for you trolling in 2004 you dirty liar.

by Magneto Mon Dec 22, 2003 12:16

Are you also calling the WSM dirty liars? Well. no more about Shannon.

I prophesy that 2004 will be the year of the downfall of the Troika in the SP. Joe Higgins will lead the democratic majority to overthrow the Dictatorship Of The Fulltimers. Stevie & Kev will have to get jobs more suited to their talents, such as bin collecting. Now thats an idea! Michael O'Brien could also get a bin collecting job and still be a candidate!

Needless to say I support the campaign for full political rights for Civil Servants. Joking aside I hope Michael succeeds in smashing this monstrosity. I fear its not going to be easy. I did some checking and found out that Toddy O'Sullivan had to resign his job when he submitted his nomination papers for a Dail Election. Toddy was a postman, (Post Office was part of Civil Srvice then) it goes to show how stupid this law is.

by magnetic fields (identity withheld for now) Mon Dec 22, 2003 12:24

Loyal IMC users - type Magneto into search engine - tick the search comments box too - and see how much of a contribution this divide/conquer bot has made to this site in the past.

It wants to destroy the commons. I am no SP supporter yet I get dragged into this entity's worldview for having the temerity to criticise the destructiveness that characterises the contributions of this entity.

C'mon Magneto - do the decent thing and disappear -

by Magneto Mon Dec 22, 2003 14:16

"Loyal IMC users - type Magneto into search engine - tick the search comments box too - and see how much of a contribution this divide/conquer bot has made to this site in the past."

Loyal IMC Users do the same re tintin , SP Member , OK etc . See what you get, a long litany of attacks on anything the SP disagree with.

"II am no SP supporter yet I get dragged into this entity's worldview for having the temerity to criticise the destructiveness that characterises the contributions of this entity. "

Why then dont you criticise the SP trolling? They pursue posters across threads wanting to have the same argument time after time. They present the same long list of smears everytime Labour, SF or the Greens post.

You dragged yourself into this. Your unwillingness to criticise the SP exposes you as the troll you are.

"C'mon Magneto - do the decent thing and disappear -"

C'mon magnetic fields go back to the SY kennels like a good puppy.

by Santa Claus Mon Dec 22, 2003 14:35

He's a very naughty troll. Ho ho ho

by Magneto Mon Dec 22, 2003 14:54

See whos laughing when my telekinetic powers send Rudolphs antlers into your posterior! Now you had better bring me the collected works of Peter Hadden or I'll be very angry.

I hope you bring John Throne and Dermot Connolly Pensions and Redundancy Payments for Xmas. Little chance of the SP doing so.

by random IMCer Mon Dec 22, 2003 14:56

Magneto you are an unadulterated troll. You repeatedly use lies and inuendo against the SP. Look at the Dermot Connolly thing for example. This is nothing more that gossip yet you choose to use gossip to condemn the SP's politics. At least the SP 'trolls' use real facts my only problem with them is that they probably repeat themselves a bit and generally go about it the wrong way.

Magneto will you all give us an early xmas present and don't come back onto the site in the new year?

by Magneto Mon Dec 22, 2003 15:01

"Magneto you are an unadulterated troll. You repeatedly use lies and inuendo against the SP. Look at the Dermot Connolly thing for example. This is nothing more that gossip "

Dermot was removed as Gen Sec, Dermot was forced out of the SP. Thats facts, not gossip. Now what other lies are you talking about?

Oh dear! Do you mean the smears I've answered 50 times? Troll off!

"Magneto will you all give us an early xmas present and don't come back onto the site in the new year?"

I'll be back. Maybe you'll escape from the CWI Cult?

by SP member (interupting his xmas break) Mon Dec 22, 2003 15:08

1) DC was not "removed" from the Gen Sec position he came off the NEC volunteraly

2) DC was not forced out of the SP he recently resigned.

No evidence has been produced by Magneto to the contrary. He is a lying troll.

by Magneto Mon Dec 22, 2003 15:33

"1) DC was not "removed" from the Gen Sec position he came off the NEC volunteraly"

DC has in conversation with many non members of the SP made clear that he was unhappy at being levered out of the Gen Sec post. If he was happy then why no passing on of the torch speech? Surely you would expect that after someone steps down after 25 years as a fulltimer. He would have choked on such a speech.

"2) DC was not forced out of the SP he recently resigned."

DC was forced out. The Troika made it clear to him that he could either resign or be expelled.

"No evidence has been produced by Magneto to the contrary. He is a lying troll."

No. You are the liars. Just as you lied about John Throne, Denis Tourish, Marc Mulholland, Bill Webster, Finn Geaney , the Pakistani Section etc etc etc.

I reckon it wont be too long before DC joins Throne, Tourish and Mulholland as an open critic of yours here on Indymedia. That prospect really terrifies the SP Junta, doesnt it?

by PM Mon Dec 22, 2003 16:18

Are you two planning on taking a break in this nonsense for xmas? Or even going away to do something more productive? After all, there are only three of us reading this junk.

by Magneto Mon Dec 22, 2003 16:22

Now where did I put that SPer? tintin and I were planning a special for Boxing Day.

by SP member (back from xmas shopping) Mon Dec 22, 2003 17:06

A social event took place mid December 2002 organised by DC erstwhile full time colleages in Doyles on Fleet Street as a mark of appreciation for the years he gave as a full timer. He was presented with an electric bass guitar funded by a whip around of members. Of the people present included KmcL, PH, JH, CD and MO'B. Dermot gave a speach where he did allude to differences but certainly gave no indication of being "mainoevred out". Now, a year later, we are told by an anonymous troll of conversations with unnamed people where mainoeverings took place. Magneto forever repeats ad nauseum the names of people who have parted company from the SP without ever going into the POLITICS. He mentions open disagreements between DC and SPers at bin tax meetings while conveniently not going into the issue at stake or mentioning that though being a minority a the meeting the position argued by the SP (for solidarity blockades across Dublin when non collection had started in Fingal) prevailed against the position argued by DC and others. But why go into the POLITICS of issues when gossipy crap will serve your need.

by Brian Wed Dec 24, 2003 17:32

Magneto you are an idiot. I think it is at best extremely ignorant to talk about someone behind their back, DC does not use this site and soes not contribute to it. It is wrong that you should therefore come on an attribute things about him without him being able to set the record straight. DC was not forced off the NEC or out of the SP. Look at the post above mine, DC has been a member of the SP for most of his adult life and is a dedicated class fighter and union activist. DC will always be respected by his comrades in the SP who have worked along side him.

Magneto have you ever talked to DC directly? No of course not. But why let facts get in the way of a good troll.

No give us all a break , stop you trolling and don't come back in the New Year.

by hs - sp Sat Dec 27, 2003 18:13

truth is magneto has never made a single comment or contribution about anything ever. he lives to attack the sp, I can only wonder what we did to the poor soul.
Still happy xmas anyway (and sp comrades please stop taking this ridiculas hack seriously!). I doubht he's really in the Labour party either.