Clashes show failure of peace process

by observer2 Tue Sep 20, 2005 02:05

First if you read the previous my posts (see above) you wouldn't have to ask me what I mean by blair and aherns tactics.

Second, not engaging in deeper analysis doesn't mean that a person is dumb, it just means they are either too lazy or too entrenched in their own opinion to look further than their nose!

Thirdly my analogy with football violence was in relation to the parades commission and the illogicality of their decision to ban the march, when compared to the situation with english and scottish football, given that both they and the local constabulary are agents on the same government.

Finally, it is easy to be abusive:any fool can do that. What is difficult is to engage in mature debate. Yes, the orangemen are bigoted fools stuck in a timewarp and yes the crown forces have no right to be on irish soil, however that doesn't mean that I too have to be a bigot. It would have been more productive to have let them march and stand laughing at their taunts. In closing I would say that the nationalist population certaintly doesn't need to import thugs from the unionist side after all they have enough of their own as is evidenced by the robert mc cartney situation amongst many others.Irish freedom will not be won by scum like those who use the name of oglaigh na h-eireann as a coverall for their activities.

by Barry Tue Sep 20, 2005 00:13

There is nothing at all preventing orangemen from parading to their hall on the white rock or expressing their hatred. The alternative route for their shithead nonsense goes directly to the whiterock orange hall , its just that there arent enough catholics on the way to annoy .

Ordinary residents however are entitled to their freedom of movement and not to have their road closed by armed police and troops to facilitate scum or to be hemmed in by riot shields and armour. Orangemen should not have the right to express their hatred for catholics outside the very doors of catholics who bitterly resent their hatred .

Expressing the view that you are indeed the "Billy boys" , who are in fact "up to their necks in fenian blood" , not to mention , "surrender or you die", may not be regarded by overly sensitive types as a cultural expression any civilised person should have to put up with on their doorstep . Still less their children shouldnt have to have their eyesc and ears polluted with sectarian filth like that .

And whats with the daft analogies with English soccer fans ? If English people are prepared to put up with the antics of bigoted racist thugs and morons on their own doorsteps thats their own affair . However this isnt England and the Irish residents of the lr Springfield rd dont want trash polluting it and threatening and insulting them and their their children .

By the way Im obviously too dim , simplistic and unenlightened to cop on what Ahern and Blairs grand scheme is regarding the orangemens wee parade . If you could spell it out Id be grateful .

by observer2 Mon Sep 19, 2005 23:38

1. Freedom of movement and freedom of expression are (i believe) basic rights.

2. Yes, I have seen an orange march but it didn't impress me that much, compared to a horde of chelsea fans on the rampage an orange march is a tea party.

3. Time to realise that this whole situation is being orchestrated by blair and ahern, get past the simplistic analysis and see the real machinations.

by Barry Mon Sep 19, 2005 23:32

The very spot these religious bigots and romper room murderers wish to flaunt their hatred through , only yards from Bombay Street itself , goes directly through an area which has long been tortured by them . Many of the homes they parade past have had family members murdered by orange killers , some in the most gruesome manner

Among the orangemen marching this route are former members of the Shankill butchers who hacked and mutiliated their catholic victims in a satanic display of sectarian hatred . An orange lodge which parades through this area carries the banner of a deceased sectarian murderer Brian Robinson . Members of the bands which accompany the bigots are directly affiliated to both UFF and UVF bigots who brought terror and misery many times to that 100 yards this idiot believes isnt important .

This stretch of the Springfield rd was where , to name but one resident , Philomena Hannah was blasted to death behind the counter of her chemist shop by loyalist hero Stevie "top gun" McKeague . On leaving the shop McKeague and his accomplice sang "follow the yellow brick road" and laughed as the young woman lay with her brains blown out . The people marching and banging their idiotic fucking drums up and down that road are the same people who roared and cheered at the Shankill awards ceremony later when Stevie McKeague was given a plaque , free drugs and a financial bonus for killing innocent people like her . He even got a gold chain which carried the slogan "top gun" for acts like he commited on that stretch of the Springfield rd .

People do not want these dirty trash and animals polluting their road . They shouldnt have to be penned into their homes by British guns and armour to allow these trash to flaunt their hatred , spew vile abuse and bang their stinking idiotic drums . Civilised people as opposed to neanderthals shouldnt have to endure or pander to this idiotic vile behaviour for one second .

If this is what unionists want to have as culture then they should keep it strictly among the idiots on the Shankill who think its culture , theyve no need to take it to the Springfield rd where the residents are utterly opposed to having it forced down their throats . And for good reason .

If 100 yards is no big deal why try and kill people because you cant walk it , with a stupid big fucking drum .

by C Ó Brolcháin Mon Sep 19, 2005 22:50

"By the way the would have been marching through 100 yards of a nationalist area! 100 yards!"

The point is that they didn't need to march past Catholic homes to get to their destination, but they demanded that they had a right to anyway.


"Old men in bowler hats and umbrellas!"

Have you ever actually been at an Orange march, on either side of one?

by rooster Mon Sep 19, 2005 01:44

which questions have I not answered and at least each one of my posts are named!!
Something to hide?

by NO U DONT Sun Sep 18, 2005 22:26

And youre still allergic to quotation marks which makes your pointless drivel even more bizarre and impossible to decipher .

by rooster Sun Sep 18, 2005 20:09

by sportnotwar Sunday, Sep 18 2005, 1:55pm

(P.S. Rooster, please learn how to use quotes " " . It makes it easier to distinguish between what you are responding to and what you yourself are saying, and makes your points clearer to other readers.)

-thanks for the advice but at least I answer other peoples questions

by observer2 Sun Sep 18, 2005 19:35

One line is picked out?
What about the rest of the post?

Nothing happens that the main players don't want to happen. The whole thing is a sham, a province full of puppets.

By the way the would have been marching through 100 yards of a nationalist area! 100 yards!

Freedom of assembly, or are you opposed to that? Is every major protest march not a taunt to someone?

Old men in bowler hats and umbrellas!

Typical of the "republican leadership, can't see the truth from the prospective ministerial mercs!!!

.....................going up to easter road to watch the hibbie aces!!!!!!!!!!


sportsnotwar but paradingiswar? laughable

by sportnotwar Sun Sep 18, 2005 14:55

"Each week, in england and scotland, millions of football supporters march on the grounds of their opponents. Anyone who has witnessed this spectacle and it's often bloody aftermath will testify to the inherent triumphalism and in some cases open hatred on display."

That comparison is not valid. English and Scottish football supporters are not in the habit of burning their opponents out of their homes. Neither is there any equivalent, among English or Scottish supporters, to the way that "loyalists" have engaged in a systematic way of murdering anyone perceived to be of "the other side".

(P.S. Rooster, please learn how to use quotes " " . It makes it easier to distinguish between what you are responding to and what you yourself are saying, and makes your points clearer to other readers.)

by observer2 Sun Sep 18, 2005 10:41

The parade should have been allowed to go ahead. Not a popular opinion here in the deep south, however, it is my opinion. The ridiculous nature of the reasoning behind the parades commission is obvious to me. They would claim that it would prevent one group parading in a triumphalist manner past the other group: who will then resort to violence which will escalate and result in serious threat to life. In other words the parades commission is saying " Oh no, you can't walk down that street for your own safety, those bloody fenians will attack you and then we really will have Return of Billy- BOTB2". The re routing of this parade is as much an insult to nationalists as it is to logic.

Each week, in england and scotland, millions of football supporters march on the grounds of their opponents. Anyone who has witnessed this spectacle and it's often bloody aftermath will testify to the inherent triumphalism and in some cases open hatred on display. Using the logic of the parades commission a large percentage of these games would either have to be played behind closed doors or cancelled.

In any event the restraint of the nationalist people is commendable, and blair has succeeded in blackening the mildest unionists as terrorist supporters. This serves two immediate political needs, firstly , the unionists are so busy trying to deal with the aftermath of all this that they have forgotten that there is a continent called south america let alone a country called colombia and paisley is being made to accept the provo line on decomissioning. After all, the landrover put on show by the psni had fourteen bullet marks made in it by loyalist gunfire. Obviously loyalists either don't have the equiptment of their republican counterparts which would leave holes and maybe craters rather than the lamentable little marks on show, or they used such low calibre weapons in order not to seriously harm their brethren! Be it the latter and I know just the man that might provide a wee bit of training. I mean theres not much difference between the lvf and farc when you look at it, it's just a matter of scale.

Ah sure it's just like a hearts v rangers match, or celtic v hibs for that matter. away the lads..........

by rooster Sun Sep 18, 2005 04:18

What is needed in Belfast now, is Republican communities to begin rioting against the PSNI too, and start blocking roads into their republican areas to protest against PSNI brutality too.

-so are the PSNI an armed loyalist militia or are they people getting attacked on all sides for trying to carry out their duties impatially.



This reverse scenario would not be tolerated by the PSNI, who without hesitation would've waded into republican protestors with their batons, jackboots and water cannons ablaze.

-have you not been listening to Loyalist protestations about heavy handedness?
Maybe you don't have radio or TV in your house? Or maybe your just deaf?



The UDA put out a statement calling for the rioting and protests to stop. Yet the peelers insist upon aggravating/provoking the already delicate situation by raiding the homes of loyalist paramilitaries and arresting them.

-oh yeah, they are provoking the loyalists by continuing to look for illegal weapons, I bet if they did'nt look for the weapons people like yourself would delight in suggesting they were turning a blind eye to loyalist paramilitaries, oh yeah "collusion"



The PSNI are using the unrest and riots, started by the Orange order to settle old scores against popular loyalist paramilitaries.

-oh they are popular!!!
well thats OK then



History would prove that if we do not speak out against the PSNI clampdown against loyalist paramilitaries, republican paramilitaries could be next too.

- they have been in the past and all scum will be chased by the law regardless of their religon



Even though 49% of working class catholics are still unemployed compared with 13% of working class protestants.

-mate, why look at only the working classes and not the community as a whole? Or are you trying to play the numbers???



Working class protestants have more access to leisure facilities to combat stress due to unemployment/low paid jobs etc, with more than 6 leisure centres located in loyalist areas, and only 3 leisures centres located in republican areas.

-I would love to see your sources for these numbers, as there are far more than 9 leisure centers in Northern Ireland.



The loyalist district of castlereagh in east belfast has the highest number of mulitnational factories and industrial units.

-highest number as compared to what? you just throw these numbers down with no sources and no comparisons, like, "highest number of industrial units" in what? Ireland, Europe the World???

Come back when you have finished play school

by tom eile Sat Sep 17, 2005 23:11

maybe this young fella was following your advice Barry.. see:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/4256152.stm

Seriously though ,while I'm all for solidarity with protestant workers when they're in struggle against the state , I can't help seeing similarities between these orange riots and the antics of the Gaza settlers last month.

by Barry Sat Sep 17, 2005 00:18

Republicans should confront state forces now in a show of solidarity with our oppressed brethren

by The Good old days Sat Sep 17, 2005 00:10

What is needed in Belfast now, is Republican communities to begin rioting against the PSNI too, and start blocking roads into their republican areas to protest against PSNI brutality too.

This reverse scenario would not be tolerated by the PSNI, who without hesitation would've waded into republican protestors with their batons, jackboots and water cannons ablaze.

It was the self styled 'respectable' Orange order who instigated the riots and called on working class protestants to do their dirty work and riot and destroy their own areas, not loyalist paramilitaries.

The UDA put out a statement calling for the rioting and protests to stop. Yet the peelers insist upon aggravating/provoking the already delicate situation by raiding the homes of loyalist paramilitaries and arresting them.

The PSNI are using the unrest and riots, started by the Orange order to settle old scores against popular loyalist paramilitaries.

History would prove that if we do not speak out against the PSNI clampdown against loyalist paramilitaries, republican paramilitaries could be next too.

We have a situation where guillible working class protestants are being led to believe by their corrupt political leaders that somehow they are the victims, whose civil liberties, jobs, housing etc are being increasingly diminished by their catholic counterparts. It is this false perception of state favouritism towards catholics that is being fueled by rich unionists politicians who seek to stay rich.

Even though 49% of working class catholics are still unemployed compared with 13% of working class protestants.

Although more protestants are employed in low paid, menial jobs due to the state education system failing them not favouritism towards catholics.

Working class protestants have more access to leisure facilities to combat stress due to unemployment/low paid jobs etc, with more than 6 leisure centres located in loyalist areas, and only 3 leisures centres located in republican areas.

The loyalist district of castlereagh in east belfast has the highest number of mulitnational factories and industrial units.

Working class protestants have legitimate grievances about poverty, educational inequality, and bread and butter issues, but rich unionist leaders instead of addressing these issues and speaking up for their electorate, choose instead to channel frustration regarding these into petty pointless sectarian conflict, instead of class conflict.

by Barry Fri Sep 16, 2005 20:14

I appreciate Shipseas comments , although I disagree with a few .

As regards sectarianism , firstly having been on the receiving end of it for years as a youngster my attitude to it today is zero tolerance . One example a few years back in Belfast - teenagers from a catholic area which was being attacked by loyaists painted a huge wall slogan which stated "protestants keep out - RIRA" . 32CSM members including myself immediately had it removed as well as lecturing the culprits on what sectarianism is about . Not only is it morally wrong ,intellectually devoid of reason it is self defeating . It is DUMB .Sectarianism , after overwhelming military force is the winning card played by British imperialism . It is the plank of their claim to rule here and must be resisted . There can be no tolerance of it amongst genuine republicans . I have had protestant friends and even girlfriends from childhood to adulthood , almost all of whom were unionist . We shared houses and went on holidays together. 2 of my closest friends in 32csm come from protestant backgrounds . Anyone who says they are the enemy is my enemy - simple as that . Catholics and protestants even with opposing political views can live together , of that Im convinced .

Zero tolerance means zero tolerance . It cant be pandered to otherwise you make it acceptable and thereby strenthen it . I dont regard naked bigotry as a legitimate means of cultural expression . People should not have to tolerate it being flaunted through their areas , much less at the point of a PSNI baton or British gun with loyalist threats to kill and burn in the background . But that is the reality of British rule in Ireland .

My opposition to the GFA is not only on the grounds it copperfastens British rule but that it institutionalises sectarianism . It merely tries to manage it - thereby strengthening it - rather than defeating it for good . And sadly, there will inevitably arise the occasion when the system is unable to manage it . That is a certainty and the events of this summer are just a fore runner of what will come under the GFA . Sectarian warfare with no challenge whatsoever to the legitimacy of the state and system which gives rise to the whole stinking mess in the first place . Thats what the GFA , British strategy and Sinn Fein strategy has doomed the north to . The GFA is a total failure lurching from one sick disaster to another . We need something much more radical and far reaching to sort this mess out for good . As long as British rule remains sectarianism will thrive here .

I dont hold to some narrow militaristic view of armed struggle as the only way forward, but I certainly believe that Britain is a malignant occupying force which Irish people ultimately have a right to resist by force of arms . How and when they choose to do so is however another question . And I certainly dont equate resisting British forces as the equivalent to sectarian hatred and never will .

Im glad Shipsea believes people have a right to defend their homes from what the last few weeks has shown to be a very real threat . That shows he/shes approaching this question seriously and realisticaly . However Id be interested to know where exactly people are supposed to acquire defensive weeapons and the knowledge to use them if no armed groups exist within catholic areas ?

by Shipsea Fri Sep 16, 2005 17:54

The 'armed struggle leading to a united ireland is the only solution no matter what the cost' attitude is what I am calling self-righteous. I offer no justification for thuggery by anyone. As I said above, anyone under immediate threat of violence is entitled - by law - to defend themselves using reasonable force. Only extreme pacifists would disagree.

by tom eile Fri Sep 16, 2005 16:57

Are you suggesting that Barry's post was strident and self - righteous ? Sectarianism and anti-sectarianism are not the same thing ; the defence of working class class communities from sectarian thugs should surely be encouraged and not dismissed as "violent protest"

by Shipsea Fri Sep 16, 2005 10:28

It's true that the AOH does not compare to the Orange Order either as to the scope or extent of its involvement in the armed conflict in the North. It is a sectarian organisation, though, and it promotes an attitude that is bound to aggravate existing antagonisms.

What matters here, Barry? The ending of bloodshed and the establishment of a peaceful community - or winning a United Ireland at any cost? There is a line to be walked through this issue which is one that you have lost all faith in, presumably having been burned too often before to be able to believe anything of this kind will ever work. I believe your account of unionist bigotry is justified - that it is more virulent than anything seen on the other side. The only response to it, however, is simply not to engage with it. Dont fight it with its own weapons and strategies - it will always have the advantage. Dont let it contaminate you.

You seem to think bravery and courage are only ever to be found in those who chose the physical fight as opposed to any other kind of fight. This is as simplistic as it is superficial. Most would agree that where people and/or their homes are under any sort of immediate assault then they have every right to defend themselves in that moment. Anything more is not justified, however.

The Loyalists and others are proving their true nature at the moment. It 's now more apparent than ever that nothing, no agreement, no concession was ever going to be enough for them and they have openly fallen back on violent provocation. They are completely exposed.

It can only be a good thing for people to focus on what they have in common. Working conditions, health, education, housing, experience of war/ terror - people have much more, not less, in common. This is a point of light and truth at the heart of this situation. A good thing which people will instinctively gravitate towards if it is given the chance - which it very seldom is in this world. You mentioned the minroity of decent Protestant people that you met at school. Those are the people to concentrate on engaging with.

The hardest thing for people with your sort of experience is, presumably, letting go of your mistrust and there are not many of us who would be equal to it. But that is actually the bravest and the hardest gesture of all. There are no guarantees that if you do this it will work but it is a better sort of faith and the more people who coalesce around the idea of trust and decency, the the more integrity your community will have. In these circumstances, truth and justice fall into place more readily than otherwise. No amount of strident, self-righteous or violent protest can ever do this so well.

by observer Fri Sep 16, 2005 10:28

Often disagree with you but excellent post.

Hard to know where to begin regarding the nonsense from SP emember. They "fight" inter-communal violence in Sri Lanka, and fight sectarianism in the north and Palestine. Talking about things from a safe distance does not constitute fighting my friend.

As for the Militant members who were involved in the Battle of the Bogside. Crap. John Throne was in Derry for a short period and that was the extent of their involvement. We all know what happened to him of course.

by Barry Fri Sep 16, 2005 04:22

Many many members of the workers party were present defending the bogside then as well , as were even members of the AOH - so what ?

Many other catholic areas came under attack shortly afterwards and most notably the lower Falls and parts of Ardoyne were burned to the ground because they were undefended . Stones are singularly useless against heavily armed orange mobs backed up by the police .

How is defending areas from orange bigots sectarian ? Explain this nonsensical insult . People from catholic areas are sectarian in protecting their homes because of the existence of catholic bigots ? People from catholic areas demanding an end to organised bigotry parading through their areas are sectarian because theres catholic bigots too ? Billy McKees defence of the short strand was a sectarian act ??? Are you serious ? The existence of catholic bigots means you cant protect your homes or protest against sectarian marches ? Please tell the catholics what they should do . Rely on the RUC and British Army to protect them . Stay off the streets when the Orangemen are in town , like frightened little non sectarian rabbits ? What do you suggest ?

While sectarianism certainly exists among northern catholics it is NOTHING compared to the level of bigotry amongst the unionist community . No catholics even attempt , never mind believe its their birthright to ritually humiliate their neighbours and call it culture .

I was educated in a 90% plus protestant state school , and though I met plenty of decent protestants the vile unrelenting abuse myself and fellow catholic students suffered on a daily basis was horrendous . It came from the majority of the students and was widespread and tolerated by the staff . Even the few catholic teachers were abused with impunity . Wiping spit off your school blazer and hair was a weekly and sometimes daily occurence . Every desk was covered in loyalist graffiti and fuck the pope slogans In all my time Ive NEVER encountered anything as similar and unrelentingly hateful on the catholic side . Distasteful individuals yes , but nothing even close to the monolithic seething bigotry within the unionist community .

Just look at the news FFS . No protestant churches or primary schools have been blockaded nor has there been any threat to do so within the catholic community . The overwhelming of homes attacked throughout the north have been catholic homes , done by loyalist paramiltaries . These attacks have been both ignored and even semi condoned by unionist politicians and even clergymen . The protestant rector of Ahoghill REFUSES EVEN TO MEET WITH THE LOCAL PRIEST !!

Virtually the only protestant area coming under attack is the Fountain district of Derry . This is being done by KIDS as young as 11 not grown men never mind armed groups . It is roundly condemned by everyone in Derry and no excuses are made for it by anyone. Despite your theory on catholic sectarianism Protestant community workers have pointed out that these kids either side of the Fountain wall ALL know each other by their first names because they go on cross community holidays with each other on a regular basis . So much for no experience of the other side .

Your nonsensical comparison between the AOH and the Orangemen continues unabashed . The AOH are an irrelevant and tiny bunch of shitheads . They certainly pose no threat to anyone whatsoever. Conservative certainly but "vicious" is certainly not a term any sane person would ever use to describe them . Please tell me one road that has been blockaded by the AOH , one act of violence commited by them in all of Ireland or even one single instance of anyone claiming the AOH intimidated them from their home , just one instance please . Youre trying to create a bogeyman were none exists and you should catch yourself on .

This seething anger within unionism broke out because one of their parades was rerouted not because of social conditions . Unionists and Loyalists have set up a community based initiative to express their frustration - here . Just read it . Read all the loyalist grievance here -http://www.loveulster.com/forums/viewforum.php?f=1

a sick joke

by anarcho Fri Sep 16, 2005 02:17

orange and green is nothing but divisive, and fighting over religious sects is nothing more than fighting over the crumbs of our masters, nationalism IS the problem and cynic is part of it. No gods, no masters!

by SP Member Fri Sep 16, 2005 01:55

The SP has consistantly opposed and fought sectarianism in the North, just as we fight communal violence in Sri Lanka, and inter-community conflict in Cyprus, Isreal/Palestine etc.

To suggest otherwise is snide and reprehensible. What the SP will not do is condemn sectarian violence coming from one community while ignoring sectarian violence coming from the other. Whether nationalists like it or not, sectarianism exists in the catholic community.

Despite what C Ó Brolcháin claims we do not attempt to enforce (to use a phrase) 'parity of esteem' in our dealing with sectarianism. We will condemn all sectarian violence irrspective of where it comes from. The fact is that sectarianism is more widespread in the catholic community than most nationalists will admit. It is dismissed as defending the catholic areas. The rantings about 'loyal Protestant people of Ulster' is typical of the lack of understanding shown by nationalists about the mood in protestant working class communities, hardly surprising given the lack of contact that individuals who express these views would have with the protestant working class.

As for Barry's claim that the SP exhibits the 'the same twisted logic' of the WP, he may appreciate the information that members of the fore-runner of the SP, Militant, were involved in defence of catholic communities at the begining of the troubles, including on the Bogside in 1969. This does not mean that we refuse to acknowledge the nature of the state in the North or the continuing and deepening divisions between the two communities.

As for the AOH, it is a bigoted catholic nationalist organisation, ardent supports of groups like SPUC, intent on defending the catholic hierarchy and catholic property. It is viciously anti-Protestant and anti-English. The AOH have played a disgraceful role, particularly in the USA in promoting this agenda and to suggest otherwise is ignoring the evidence. Barry's dismisal of the AOH and his view of the OO are viewed through nationalist blinkers.

The SP is not interested in promoting a nationalist agenda (unlike many others on the left) or a unionist agenda. We want to promote the right of the working class in the North not to be dragged into a sectarian quagmire that will see many more deaths in the future, which is where the current situation is heading.

As for the suggestion that our Masters are based in England, do you really think that socialists in Ireland would sit down and take dictat from someone in London. It really is old hat and you should try being more inventive.

by Barry Thu Sep 15, 2005 23:40

by a revolutionary communist with a bit of sense

http://b4.boards2go.com/boards/board.cgi?action=read&id=1126822133&user=32csm

by Barry Thu Sep 15, 2005 22:07

Trying to compare the AOH to the orangemen is a total red herring . There is no comparison at all save for their wearing of a green sash . AOH activity is almost 100% confined to their social clubs which people drink in because the drinks slightly cheaper and thats about it . They are an utter irrelevance and just as harmless , totally harmless in fact ( as well as ridiculous) . I dont even know a single Hib in my locality , thankfully .

The Orange Order are , and always have been vicious , murderous sectarian bigots . The traditional tunes played at their "fraternal religious parades" revel in the murder of innocent people - eg Dollys Brae , Billy Boys .

People have every right to demand they cease parading through areas where they are totally unwelcome and even feared . The Orange Order have nothing but hatred and contempt for the communities they demand the right to intimidate , insult and walk over . That isnt culture , its raw naked bigotry which should never be pandered to by anyone .

The SP now seem to be branding anyone who stands up to this bigotry as a bigot themselves . Shades of the Workers Party who condemned the defence of the Short Strand in 1970 and justified the refusal to protect catholic districts from marauding orange mobs in 1969 for the same twisted logic .

If they seriously believe people can sit down and have reasonable dialogue with the lowlifes who picket Harryville and Holy Cross theyre either

a)woefully out of touch ,
b) being deliberately insulting
c) have a major flaw in their analysis which just makes it look like a&b are the case
d) all of the above because theyre political ideologues and masters are based in England where the "two sides of paddys are all the same" analysis is only too common .

by C Ó Brolcháin Thu Sep 15, 2005 21:26

Triumphalist sectarian organisations like the Orange Order should not be allowed to march anywhere. Their very existence is anathema to working class unity. The disturbances that have sprung up throughout Belfast over the past week, started because the Orange demanded that they had a right march past Catholic homes on the Springfield Road on their way to the Whiterock Orange Hall. The fact that they could make their way to it without the need to antagonise Catholics didn't matter.

It's true that the Protestant working class have no political representation, that the Unionist parties have always and will always represent the interests of upper-class unionism. But these parties are still capable of using the Orange card like a flag to the bull, stoking up sectarian tensions among working class Protestants by insinuating that eqaulity for Catholic is somehow a threat to the 'loyal Protestant people of Ulster'.

The article above is typical of the moral cowardice of the SP, and of others in the middle-class left - they would never dare to criticise something "Protestant" without also criticising something "Catholic" at the same time. As much as many of us despise the AOH, in what way can they be compared to the Orange Order?

by tom eile Thu Sep 15, 2005 18:09

Peter Haine declared The UVF ceasefire over yesterday ,but only after they started shooting at the psni . They fired over 50 shots at the police apparantly without killing any of them. Is it that they're bad shots - they don't seem to miss so often when they're shooting civillians?

by Barry Thu Sep 15, 2005 17:05

The 29 year old catholic almost kicked to death who was referred to in the article was not the friend of the late Robert McCartney who was attacked this week . Another young man was attacked by loyalists on the Albertbridge rd prior to this and left for dead.

Short Strands "defenders of the community" were too busy picketing the home of Brigeen Hagan and her 2 children to defend anyone in that community during this mayhem . In fact the reason they originally gave for gathering in force outside the home of RMCs young children was that they were defending the area from loyalists , which shows the depths these treacherous elements have sunk to .

They brutally assaulted Mr Commander , RMcs friend later when he visited Ms Hagans home to see if she was ok . SFs local representative told reporters to contact SFs press office rather than discuss the matter . Now the elections are over it appears the state , the politicians and media dont give a shit either what happens to ordinary catholics at the hands of either set of gangsters .

by KT Thu Sep 15, 2005 16:55

The SP's condemned the solidarity action at Harryville and denounced it in the local Ballymena papers. They called for all sides to sit down and discuss the problems. !!

by Cynic Thu Sep 15, 2005 16:49

The SP condemned the SWP as being sectarian because they organised solidarity for the parishioners at Harryville.

The piece above is laughable when it compares the Orange Order to the Ancient Order of Hibernians. When have the AOH ever wanted to march through a Loyalist area? When have the AOH ever caused the violence, intimidation and terror that is caused by the OO? The AOH is irrelevant and is thrown in as a red herring by the SP to try and justify their support for Orange marchs going through Catholic areas.

by D Thu Sep 15, 2005 15:14

Spot on - that seems to clear that up. D

by Barry Thu Sep 15, 2005 15:08

Good point there Any Means . Perhaps Sinn Fein could give a lead to the people on this and pull out of Stormont . Refusing point blank to join the police boards would also seriously undermine British attempts to normalise its occupation .

by By Any Means Necessary Thu Sep 15, 2005 13:50

Rioting to allow a sectarian march into an area where it is not wanted ?

N.ireland was built on division its up to the leaders of loyalism and unionism to take this point on the chin.

Make n.ireland history now, because a system built on hate cannot work.

Politics is about the art of the possible so lets, dismantle the unworkable six counties and build the socialist republic on this island.

by rooster Thu Sep 15, 2005 01:26

"That is why the need for a new party of the working class based on the trade unions and genuine community groups and with a socialist programme must be built now. "

The reason this will never happen is outlined in the comment below, enjoy.

Orange/Unionist/Loyalist thugs can be British if they wish - get on the boat boys, we will even pay for your one way tickets.
.

by sp member Thu Sep 15, 2005 01:23

.

by d - sp member Thu Sep 15, 2005 01:20

if it's just a comment someone made on an indymedia thread it's probably mischief making, if it was an agreed position of the sp it's the first i heard of it.

by SP Member Thu Sep 15, 2005 00:01

Please outline a statement from the UUP that is similar to the above

by . - . Wed Sep 14, 2005 20:46

The 29 year-old Catholic referred to in the article today accused republicans from the Short Strand of attacking him due to his friendship with the late Robert McCartney.
It appears this was not a sectarian attack but a case of republicans attempting to murder more innocent people in the Short Strand.

by export import oink Wed Sep 14, 2005 20:36

the UVF was formed in 1966 named after an earlier group which had existed and was founded in 1912.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UVF
the Orange order was founded in 1795 and is a fraternal protestant organisation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orange_Order
the GFA is the key agreement to the "peace process"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Ireland_peace_process
the UDA was founded in 1971 and remained a legal paramilitary organisation till 1991.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulster_Defence_Association

(the neutrality of both articles on UVF and Orange order are disputed)

Both UVF and UDA have killed people. Murdered them for little more reason than their "sectarian origin", wanton bloodshed which their ceasefires were supposed to signal an end to.

more info on the Ni conflict:-
http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/

by C Ó Brolcháin Wed Sep 14, 2005 20:08

While a lot of the article could have easily come from the likes of the UUP, there is one point in particular that I have to agree.


"That is why the need for a new party of the working class based on the trade unions and genuine community groups and with a socialist programme must be built now. "

This is true, we do need a new party - because the Socialist Party certainly isn't it.

by Al Wed Sep 14, 2005 19:20

The GFA is and has again, been show as unworkable. It is time for Republicans to gather together and unite against the illigal British occupation of the six counties. The Orange/Unionist/Loyalist thugs can be British if they wish - get on the boat boys, we will even pay for your one way tickets.

by D Wed Sep 14, 2005 16:41

Could you firstly clarify a statement I read on another thread,

That is, that when the SWP organised solidarity action in Harryville, the SP condemned this solidarity as being sectarian!

Is this statement true, before I come back on some other issues raised within Gary's article. D