Concentration Camp for Falun Gong Disclosed; Prisoners Killed for Organ Harvesting

by anonn Wed Aug 15, 2007 11:15

question, um, if falun gong is about truthfulness, compassion and tolerance, then why are they so despised? to the extent of concentration camps and torture?

by Gerald Thu Jul 26, 2007 09:34

this article which reports on a front page news story in China about organ transplants shows a very shocking trend. Since the expose of harvesting of organs in china emerged one of the main hospitals organ transplants has dropped for livers from a high of 600 in 2006 to now 15.

http://en.epochtimes.com/news/7-7-26/58030.html

They say these fifteen came from family members. So where did the 600 come from and why the dramatic drop. Is it possible that this horrible practice of harvesting organs of Falun Gong practitioners has been stopped by the world wide media exposure and governments asking questions?

I guess we should know in the coming months whether the UN excepted China's answer to the organ harvesting claims. If they didnt I hope they will act.

So the facts are:
1. Journal of the Royal Society of Medicine found the Matas-Kilgour report "credible"
2. The British Transplantation Society (BTS) says "accumulating body of evidence suggests " executed prisoners do not give consent
3. There are thousands of organs that can not be accounted for even if all executed prisoners are giving there organs with or without consent
4. According to the Kilgour Matas report hospitals have admitted taking organs from Falun Gong pracitioners, and family members of doctors involved in the practice have come foward to give evidence.
5. We also agreed that the Chinese government or their medical websites are not credible, and therefore not holding to professional standards.
6.Deputy Chinese Health Minister Admits that most organs come from prisoners: "Apart from a small portion of traffic victims, most of the organs from cadavers are from executed prisoners." and that it is an "'Under‑the‑table business "
7. According the China Transplant website the Chinese government and judicary are helping with the organ transplant trade, how exactly we dont know?
8. We also learned from the Organ transplant website that they take the organs from live people.
9. The Irish government views these 'these allegations seriously and enquiries on this issue have been made by the Department of Foreign Affairs within the EU and UN frameworks, as well as through our Embassy in Beijing.'
10. Based on China's published reply to the UN, they have no answers to the claims of organ harvesting. They can not answer simple questions.
11. Israeli health insurance companies agree not to send patients to China.

by Gerald Thu Jun 21, 2007 10:20

Maybe it should not be surprising that the first people to take a stand would be Israeli's. The attempted extermination of people who practice Falun Gong, draws paralells with the attempted extermination of the Jewish people not so long ago.

"Representatives from most of the major health insurance companies were present at Monday's committee meeting, and uniformly agreed that they did not prefer to send patients to China. "
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost%2...96259

So the facts are:
1. Journal of the Royal Society of Medicine found the Matas-Kilgour report "credible"
2. The British Transplantation Society (BTS) says "accumulating body of evidence suggests " executed prisoners do not give consent
3. There are thousands of organs that can not be accounted for even if all executed prisoners are giving there organs with or without consent
4. According to the Kilgour Matas report hospitals have admitted taking organs from Falun Gong pracitioners, and family members of doctors involved in the practice have come foward to give evidence.
5. We also agreed that the Chinese government or their medical websites are not credible, and therefore not holding to professional standards.
6.Deputy Chinese Health Minister Admits that most organs come from prisoners: "Apart from a small portion of traffic victims, most of the organs from cadavers are from executed prisoners." and that it is an "'Under‑the‑table business "
7. According the China Transplant website the Chinese government and judicary are helping with the organ transplant trade, how exactly we dont know?
8. We also learned from the Organ transplant website that they take the organs from live people.
9. The Irish government views these 'these allegations seriously and enquiries on this issue have been made by the Department of Foreign Affairs within the EU and UN frameworks, as well as through our Embassy in Beijing.'
10. Based on China's published reply to the UN, they have no answers to the claims of organ harvesting. They can not answer simple questions.
11. Israeli health insurance companies agree not to send patients to China.

by Philosopher Jay Mon May 21, 2007 00:00

Thank you Bobby and Gerald for a wonderful year long debate on this issue. You have both presented your sides very well and given those interested a chance to think about the issues involved.

by Gerald Sun May 06, 2007 12:32

The Chinese communist party has responded to the claims of organ harvesting. They have repeated much of the stuff Bobby comes out with, with the exception that they emphasize that they have laws to prevent these things from happening. I think everyone outside China reconises that they dont follow their own laws. A quote from the deputy halth minister above admits as much, because he made his statement after laws banning the trde of organs came into place.

They didnt answer the most important questions, the top one has to be: they publish that they do so many organ transplants but can not account for where the organs come from. Can they share with the world where their supply of organs come from?

I dont think the UN will be satisfied with their reply and the fact that they can not answer the questions raised means it is quite likely organ harvesing is happening

Below is a quote from their response which illustrates how worthless their response is. I do not believe the world community will be satisfied by their response and the pressure to find answers will only mount further.

"China absolutely does not allow forced donation or trafficking in the corpses or organs of executed
criminals, which are used in strict accordance with the relevant regulations. Notably: written consent must be received from the criminal to be executed and his family; approval must be received from the provincial-level health authority and the provincial-level higher people’s court; and the unit using the organs must have the authority/capacity to conduct medical science research or transplant
operations."

So the facts are:
1. Journal of the Royal Society of Medicine found the Matas-Kilgour report "credible"
2. The British Transplantation Society (BTS) says "accumulating body of evidence suggests " executed prisoners do not give consent
3. There are thousands of organs that can not be accounted for even if all executed prisoners are giving there organs with or without consent
4. According to the Kilgour Matas report hospitals have admitted taking organs from Falun Gong pracitioners, and family members of doctors involved in the practice have come foward to give evidence.
5. We also agreed that the Chinese government or their medical websites are not credible, and therefore not holding to professional standards.
6.Deputy Chinese Health Minister Admits that most organs come from prisoners: "Apart from a small portion of traffic victims, most of the organs from cadavers are from executed prisoners." and that it is an "'Under‑the‑table business "
7. According the China Transplant website the Chinese government and judicary are helping with the organ transplant trade, how exactly we dont know?
8. We also learned from the Organ transplant website that they take the organs from live people.
9. The Irish government views these 'these allegations seriously and enquiries on this issue have been made by the Department of Foreign Affairs within the EU and UN frameworks, as well as through our Embassy in Beijing.'
10. Based on China's published reply to the UN, they have no answers to the claims of organ harvesting. They can not answer simple questions.

UN report which includes part on Organ Harvesting search for 'Organ Harvesting' 0.09 Mb

by Gerald Tue Apr 24, 2007 10:35

In a recent question asked by Caoimhghı´n O´ Caola´in in the Irish government he asked whether the minister for foreign affairs attention had been drawn to the claims of Organ harvesting.

In reply Dermot Ahern said that is his opinion although 'no concrete evidence has been revealed' he viewed 'these allegations seriously and enquiries on this issue have been made by the Department of Foreign Affairs within the EU and UN frameworks, as well as through our Embassy in Beijing.'

I think we can understand this as meaning that the report by Kilgour and Matas is credible. For a soverign government to make such a statement about another government (even if it is a communist regime) it should not be under estimated. They are taking the right approach and following this matter up with investigations through the correct channels.

I do believe that in the near future the truth will come out. Many people are asking questions. For the organ harvesting issue there have been alot of Chinese agents sending out mis-information, they try to confuse and mislead people so that in the end people can not tell what is true and false and the horrible crimes continue. I do believe that the people who are doing such things will be held accountable in the future. They should stop and right the wrongs they have caused.

So the facts are:
1. Journal of the Royal Society of Medicine found the Matas-Kilgour report "credible"
2. The British Transplantation Society (BTS) says "accumulating body of evidence suggests " executed prisoners do not give consent
3. There are thousands of organs that can not be accounted for even if all executed prisoners are giving there organs with or without consent
4. According to the Kilgour Matas report hospitals have admitted taking organs from Falun Gong pracitioners, and family members of doctors involved in the practice have come foward to give evidence.
5. We also agreed that the Chinese government or their medical websites are not credible, and therefore not holding to professional standards.
6.Deputy Chinese Health Minister Admits that most organs come from prisoners: "Apart from a small portion of traffic victims, most of the organs from cadavers are from executed prisoners." and that it is an "'Under‑the‑table business "
7. According the China Transplant website the Chinese government and judicary are helping with the organ transplant trade, how exactly we dont know?
8. We also learned from the Organ transplant website that they take the organs from live people.
9. The Irish government views these 'these allegations seriously and enquiries on this issue have been made by the Department of Foreign Affairs within the EU and UN frameworks, as well as through our Embassy in Beijing.'

by bobby fletcher Mon Apr 23, 2007 22:09

"Ex" Epoch reporter Jana Shearer continues her personal attack against me, even after all 2 million of her links have been proven irrelevant, and her own mis-spelling "Lui".

Jana has proviced no proof for any of her accusations:

- where's the proof for the "Chinese/Russian double agent"?
- where's the proof I'm paid?
- where's the "jihad webiste"?

Jana Shearer, you have to answer to yourself. Your continued lies will put you in very hot places.

While the fact is my research discrediting Falun Gong's propaganda in no way exhonorate the Chinese government:

- The US embassy report by Thomas Lum was critical of China's treatment of Falun Gong;
- The CECC brief from Senator Feinstein was very critical of China as well;
- The State department investigation never exhonorated China, only that Falun Gong's allegation is not credible;
- The conclusion long time Chinese dissident Harry Wu reached was while Falun Gong's allegation is political propaganda, China still has problems with ethical treatment of the condemned.

There, only in your delusion do I stick up for the Chinese government. The fact is I have been criticizing the Chinese government on the internet before Falun Gong was even invented.

Show your proof for your accusations against me, else conceed you are a liar, Jana Shearer.

by Jana Mon Apr 23, 2007 14:28

Why do Fletcher’s posts rub people the wrong way?

I’ve come to the conclusion that its because he is not fair in his challenges to the “themes” that are posted.
Here’s what I mean… Fletcher sometimes quotes out of context. He takes a small passage from an article and uses it to suit his argument, even if the article in it’s entirety, does not support his view.

Secondly, if Fletcher can exploit the smallest of information in an article he will, and then he uses that small exploitation to claim the entire theme to be invalid. For example, I sighted several articles on Chinese Front companies. In one particular article he took exception to the claim there are 3000 front companies operating in the U.S. He refuted the truthfulness of several MAJOR news outlets by providing a link to a SINGLE blog which casts doubt on the report. When he challenged the truthfulness of the article he attempted to disprove the entire theme.

The problem with this, and I think the problem people have with Fletcher is he never addresses the other articles. In order words, by assuming one article is questionable, he purports all other information with respect to the theme must be untruthful too. This sort of challenge draws attention away from the theme, the other sources of information, and attempts to discredit the entire claim; this is: propaganda 101.

Anyway, I think this is the reason why Fletcher rubs everyone the wrong way… well that, and the notion that every time he refutes a claim, it typically leans in the favour of the Chinese Communist Party.

He’s also very critical of the U.S. and other democratic countries accusing them of being anti Chinese ..,. But, being critical of democratic countries is easier to swallow when you can back your claim up with multiple sources, fact, and/or evidence. And, if you challenge a theme… at least challenge all of the sources rather than a sentence of ONE source.

The methods Fletcher uses to post make people suspicious. Why? Because the motivation behind his posts comes into question and it’s hard to understand why you would defend China’s Human rights record by challenging a single report, when the entire Human Rights world and popular press clearly outlines their deplorable record.

After exposing Charles Lui and other aliases on several Blogs around the sphere many hosts were also tired of Charles insensible tactics and also understood that he was professional of some sort.

He always denies hes a spy (and of course he would) and who hes working for he seems to always turn attack by being emotive and bleating about how incompassionate we all are. Typical tactics of disseminating propaganda .

Gerard,

I think what you are doing with your rationale and logical information in answer to Bobby's misinformation is very good and I applaud you..
Thank you very much for making sense of the nonsensical Charles Liu AKA ,,,, fill in the blanks .........................................................

by Gerald Mon Apr 23, 2007 11:49

The First paragraph of the story is below. So now we now that the Journal of the Royal Society of Medicine found the Matas-Kilgour report "credible", and that the The British Transplantation Society (BTS) says "accumulating body of evidence suggests " executed prisoners do not give consent (see below).

"Beijing (AsiaNews/Agencies) – The British Transplantation Society (BTS) announced yesterday that an "accumulating body of evidence suggests that the organs of executed prisoners are being removed for transplantation without the prior consent of either the prisoner or their family." The situation is such that China has become the main supplier of transplant organs, involving transplant centres, patients, and the authorities and judiciary responsible for the prisoners in a very lucrative business."

So the facts are:
1. Journal of the Royal Society of Medicine found the Matas-Kilgour report "credible"
2. The British Transplantation Society (BTS) says "accumulating body of evidence suggests " executed prisoners do not give consent
3. There are thousands of organs that can not be accounted for even if all executed prisoners are giving there organs with or without consent
4. According to the Kilgour Matas report hospitals have admitted taking organs from Falun Gong pracitioners, and family members of doctors involved in the practice have come foward to give evidence.
5. We also agreed that the Chinese government or their medical websites are not credible, and therefore not holding to professional standards.
6.Deputy Chinese Health Minister Admits that most organs come from prisoners: "Apart from a small portion of traffic victims, most of the organs from cadavers are from executed prisoners." and that it is an "'Under‑the‑table business "
7. According the China Transplant website the Chinese government and judicary are helping with the organ transplant trade, how exactly we dont know?
8. We also learned from the Organ transplant website that they take the organs from live people.

This seems to prove (to a reasonable person) that many of the organs come from executed prisoners without consent, and that even all these prisoners do not make up the numbers for all the transplants taking place. Therefore the fact that some Chinese hospitals have admitted using Falun Gong practitioners organs should warrant an independent invesigation by the international Community. I do believe things are heading in that direction.

by bobby fletcher Mon Apr 23, 2007 09:38

Any reasonable read would conlcude Epoch Times editor Gerald's conclusion is false - the guy was talking about isolated cases of abuse and irregularity. Not to mention FLG's sujiatun/Auschwitz allegation is nowhere in this conversation.

This is while many, many cases of consent were cited.

Here's another example of FLG's propaganda, and why mainstream media ignores it. Here's an article from Richard Spencer of London Telegraph:

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/foreign/richardspencer/feb...e.htm

"while many foreign journalists sympathise with the plight of individual practitioners, they are suspicious of the group and in particular of some of their claims. Several of us, I know, looked into these falun gong claims when they first arose last year.
....
Unfortunately, his evidence was very much hearsay.
....
This did not seem very reliable evidence in the face of the unlikely nature of the allegation"

by Gerald Sat Apr 21, 2007 01:18

Deputy Health Minister Huang Jiefu, speaking at a conference of surgeons in the southern city of Guangzhou in mid November 2006 acknowledged that executed prisoners sentenced to death are a source of organ transplants. He said: "Apart from a small portion of traffic victims, most of the organs from cadavers are from executed prisoners." Asia News wrote:

"'Under‑the‑table business must be banned,' Mr Huang said cognizant that too often organs come from non consenting parties and are sold for high fees to foreigners."
http://www.asianews.it/view.php?l=en&art=5955

I think from the above we can take it as fact that consent is neither sought nor given in the majority of cases of organ transplants in China.

For the full report by Kilgour and Matas read: http://investigation.go.saveinter.net/

by Gerald Sat Apr 21, 2007 01:13

Deputy Health Minister Huang Jiefu, speaking at a conference of surgeons in the southern city of Guangzhou in mid November 2006 acknowledged that executed prisoners sentenced to death are a source of organ transplants. He said: "Apart from a small portion of traffic victims, most of the organs from cadavers are from executed prisoners." Asia News wrote:

"'Under‑the‑table business must be banned,' Mr Huang said cognizant that too often organs come from non consenting parties and are sold for high fees to foreigners."

I think from the above we can take it as fact that consent is neither sought nor given in the majority of cases of organ transplants in China.

For the full report by Kilgour and Matas read: http://investigation.go.saveinter.net/

by bobby fletcher Sat Apr 21, 2007 00:49

Gerald, I only need to show one case to prove Kilgour/Matas wrong. They never saw one do not mean they don't exist.

Also, many other news reports cited demonstrate many more cases exists in China FLG/Epoch is ignoring:

http://www.baidu.com/s?ie=gb2312&bs=%CB%C0%C7%F4+%BE%E8...&ct=0

Including:

- donation consent by the condemned before the law change. Here're two more examples beside Wang Jun:

http://news.sina.com.cn/s/2006-02-24/02429185759.shtml

Other types of organ donations are also reported:

http://www.baidu.com/s?ie=gb2312&bs=%BE%E8+%C6%F7%B9%D9...&ct=0

- donation consent by parents of 6 year old girl that saved 5 people:

http://news.sina.com.cn/o/2006-03-09/08278397612s.shtml

- donation consent by family of brain-dead 29 year old that saved 4 people:

http://news.sina.com.cn/s/2006-02-18/11348240111s.shtml

- donation consent by sons of brain-dead father that saved 5 people:

http://news.sina.com.cn/s/2006-02-13/04138187187s.shtml

These are facts can't be ignored.

by Gerald Fri Apr 20, 2007 10:41

In the last couple of posts we have agreed:
1. that the Chinese communists are playing a major role in organ transplants in China
2. That the chinese transplant organisation takes their organs from live people where as in every other place in the world the people have to be dead first. This is published on their website for the world to see.
3. We have agreed that the Chinese government is not a credible source of information.
4. We have agreed that the main source of organs in executed prisoners.

Questions that remain un-answered:

The list of questions awaiting answer:
1. There is a nuge number of organs that can not be accounted for after taking executed prisoners organs in to the equation, where are the organs coming from?
2. Are there consent forms for any of the donors, Bobby gave an example of one newspaper report, how about the thousands of others, one news report prooves very little?
3. Why can the Chinese transplant centre take them from live people but the rest of the world cannot? (Do the prisoners agree to be cut open while still alive?)
4. The China Transplant website says number of state bodies (gov, judicary etc) have involvement in the process, what exactly is their involvement?

Bobby says the main place the organs come from for organ transplant is executed prisoners and this is as far as I know what the Chinese government says aswell. The problem is that the number of executed prisoners no where near covers the number of organ transplants even if every one of the them agree to give their body to science. I wonder was Bobby's answer also an attempt to answer how the organs come from live people, these prisoners seem very generous in that case, the chinese judical system must have helped them to turn over a new leaf. One newspaper report does not count as constent for the thousands of others where no such consent can be proved.

I suggest people posting to this list take the time to read Kilgour and Matas's report. It answers all the questions raised and much more. I do believe reasonable people who read it will agree what is happening:

http://investigation.go.saveinter.net/

by bobby fletcher Fri Apr 20, 2007 09:07

Here's a report about a guy who turned himself in for killing his wife’s lover. Before he was to pay with his life, he decided to donate his organ as last act of redemption, and willed the organ donation compensation fund paid by the state to the victim’s family.

http://news.sina.com.cn/s/p/2006-03-20/12299394605.shtml

Many such cases exists in China:

http://www.baidu.com/s?ie=gb2312&bs=%CB%C0%C7%F4+%BE%E8...&ct=0

Some people would simply disregard Chinese media's reporting about themselves, insisting on what they know about China, like Buddhist culture and people's desire to die "whole" (probably learned from the movie "The Last Emperor".)

Above articles demonstrate a common rationale for the condemned to consent to organ donation - the Buddhist desire for redemption.

Chinese culture and Buddhist religious foundation makes organ donation difficult to promote. However the condemned often seek redemption and last act of contribution to family and society, under the same cultural and religious foundation.

Yes, the Chinese government's organ donation compensation fund seems to be direct at this population, but its aim is to promote organ donation.

You may find faults in it. But who are we to deny their reality, and self-righteously accuse them with our Western sensitivity?

I do recognize there are cases of abuse and irregularity, after all even in our own society where organ donation is more accepted, there are abuses and irregularity still.

But does this constitute “Auschwitz”?

by gerald Fri Apr 20, 2007 02:56

The number of transplants in American does not matter for the point of this discussion. In America they have this thing called 'CONSENT'. That is where the person gives their permission for the organs to be used. The problem with China's organ transplant industry is that their is a huge number of organs and nobody knows where they are coming from. They can not be accounted for and consent forms can not be produced. Matas and Kilgour who investigated the matter in detail said they didnt see one consent form from a Chinese organ donor.

Interesting quotes from the China transplant website: "So many transplantation operations are owing to the support of the Chinese government. The Supreme Demotic Court, Supreme Demotic Law-officer, Police, Judiciary, Department of Health and Civil Administration have enacted a law together to make sure that organ donations are supported by the government, This is unique in the world."

This quote shows that the Judicary and the Chinese Communist Rejime is helping them in aquiring their organs. The source of the organs nobody seems to know. Effectively this means that one of the most wiked rejimes in human history that has demsonstrated on numerous occasions its total disrespect for human life is the prime supporter of the China Transplant Network in aquiring organs.

The difficulty with a kidney transplant as far as I know is that it needs to be carried out as soon as the organ becomes available for it to have a good chance of success. I'm not a doctor but as far as I know, in most countries when some one dies in a car accident or something and carries a donor card these organs can then be given to the person who needs them. Usually the person is dead when the organs are taken. Not so in China according to the China Transplant website in the questions and answers section (http://en.zoukiishoku.com/list/qa.htm): "Q.Is it possible to be infected with other diseases such as HIV or hepatitis after the kidney transplantation?
A:It is not necessary to worry about that. The biggest problem with a kidney transplantation is the tissue match. Before the living kidney transplantation , we will examine the donors renal function and leukocyte in order to assure the safety of the kidney . So it is more safe and reliable here than in other countries, where the organ is not from a living donor. " I dont know much about organ transplants but it seems strange that in other countries the person has to be dead first but the Chinese Communist Regime takes them from live people. Bobby maybe you have some expertise and can explain?

So from the above too quotes we can note two big differences between the Chinese Transplant process and the rest of the world. Firstly the Chinese Communist rejime plays a big supporting role and secondly they take their organs from live people, (where as in other countries the donor according to the China Transplant website the donor must be dead first)

The list of questions awaiting answer:
1. Where are the organs coming from?
2. Are there consent forms for any of the donors?
3. Why can the Chinese transplant centre take them from live people but the rest of the world cannot?
4. The website saysa number of state bodies (gov, judicary etc) have involvement in the process, what exactly is their involvement?

by bobby fletcher Fri Apr 20, 2007 01:24

Agan, IE Epoch editor Gerald shows the world how does Epoch generated propaganda.

By citing one clinic with long wait time to prove his belief, the "statistic of one" fallacy is employed.

Here's the entire US transplant figures including the Mayo:

http://www.ustransplant.org/annual_reports/current/105_...h.htm

Our own "days/weeks" transplant wait time statistics dispells the "weeks in China while years elsewhere" propaganda:

- USA with 1/4 of China's population, performs over 10,000 liver transplants yearly (heart over 2800)
- 2005 data shows top 10% of wait list average 8 day wait (heart 10 days)
- 2005 data shows top 25% of wait list average 38 day wait (heart 33 days)

- Majority of median wait time, for all type of transplantation, do not exceed one year.

- Every year around 3000 people receive kidney in 3 month or less.

Also, why doesn't Epoch Times "cherry pick" transplant center with very short wait time? Because it does not "spin" their agenda the right direction.

Here's an example of a transplant center in US that makes the same promis as the Chinese, that they have access to organs - are they too selling organs?

http://www.lifepoint-sc.org/articles/theheartofthematte....html

"At MUSC, heart transplant patients on average wait about 2 1/2 months for a heart, Van Bakel said. Nationally, he said, the average wait time is about eight months."

by Gerald Thu Apr 19, 2007 11:48

As mentioned above in my previous post. The Chinese website boasts that Kidney transplants can be completed with in a few weeks. Matas and Kilgour have interviewed such people that have recieved kidney transplants in weeks. It is true the Chinese 'hospitals' can do it. How can they have such a large pool of organs to do it is the question? Where do the organs come from?

It is good that we all now agree that nothing the Chinese Communist Rejime says can be trusted that is a good start. When they invite people around hospitals for show tours that should be treated with the same degree of suspicion.

Below are stats from websites that say outside China, Europe or the US the waiting times for the kidney transplants are a year to three years.

http://www.mayoclinic.org/kidney-transplant/statsjax.html
"Median Wait Time to Transplant
Mayo Clinic in Jacksonville has one of the shortest wait times to transplant in the country.
Mayo Clinic Jacksonville National Average
7/1/2000 - 12/31/2005 12.5 months 38.3 months "

http://assembly.coe.int/Main.asp?link=/Documents/Adopte...1.htm
"There are currently 120 000 patients on chronic dialysis treatment and nearly 40 000 patients waiting for a kidney transplant in western Europe alone. Some 15% to 30% of patients die on waiting lists, as a result of chronic shortage of organs. The waiting time for transplantation, currently about three years, will reach almost ten years by the year 2010."

by bobby fletcher Thu Apr 19, 2007 08:23

It is inconsistent to, on one hand insists that the Chinese government lies, yet on the other hand quote numbers from them as fact.

Which one is it? As long-time Chinese dissident Mr. Zhang Hetse based in Melbourn Australia written in his open letter supporting Harry Wu's independent investigation - this is "cherry picking":

"The contradiction is on one hand [FLG] investigators believe CCP lies, but when it comes to CCP figures advantageous to their case, it is used without any question."

In addition to undercover investigation by US embassy and Chinese dissident who has no reason to help Beijing, Kilgour's FLG report was also examined by US congressional researchers Emma Ashburn and Thomas Lum - they found Kilgour not credible.

In "The Collateral of Suppression", a report critical of China written for Senator Dianne Feinstein, member of US Congressional Executive Committee on China (CECC), congressional researchers Emma Ashburn and Thomas Lum were quoted:

"Emma Ashburn, a research associate at the Congressional-Executive Committee on China (CECC), said that the Matas-Kilgour report really “offered nothing new” in terms of evidence on the matter of organ harvesting. The evidence they did collect, namely the phone calls and testimonies, were dubious in their objectivity.

Specialist in Asian Affairs at the Congressional Research Service, Thomas Lum, noted that the evidence could have easily been distorted. The individuals calling the hospitals were all affiliated with FLG, and Lum said that it is unlikely for doctors and officials working for the state to casually divulge such sensitive and damaging information so easily.

Moreover, Lum’s efforts to contact both the Chinese journalist and doctor’s wife have been fruitless, as FLG members direct all communications toward these individuals and they often do not respond. Harry Wu, a longtime political activist known for his hardline anti-PRC views, announced on August 9, 2006 that he would challenge the allegations made by FLG about targeted organ harvesting, especially the claim about the Sujiatun concentration camp.

About the report, the South China Morning Post reports, “Mr. Wu, who has spent 15 years gathering evidence on the harvesting of organs from executed Chinese prisoners, said the information was based on the testimony of two witnesses, neither of whom had first-hand information. He believed the reports were fabricated.” Wu had tried to follow up with the witnesses just as Lum had—to the same futility. In the face of these criticisms, including from even Wu, who formerly held friendly relations with FLG, all things considered the allegations FLG has made about a targeted campaign of state-sponsored genocide are most likely untrue."

by Gerald Wed Apr 18, 2007 23:44

The broken english on the International Chinese Transplant website says when referring to transplants outside China "They have to be on the waiting list for years before they finally get the donor, but miss the right time for the transplantation surgery forever" and then goes on to say when reffering to their own transplantation time frames within China "A few days before a blood type O patient was reffered to our centre by one of our ex patient. It only took three weeks to complete the whole treatment"

The source of the claim that transplants in China takes weeks while transplants from outside side China takes years comes from the offical 'China International Transplant centre' website which is still up and running and selling its organs.

Regarding the quote that Bobby was looking for from the Journal of the Royal Society of Medicine "What makes it credible are the numerical gap between the reported number of transplants compared with what is possible in other countries, the short waiting times and the confidence with which operations are offered in the global health market1 and the routine blood testing of the Falun Gong."

So as far as I understand the Journal of the Royal Society of Medicine does find the claims credible and the reasons are quoted above.

The International China Transplant centre

by bobby fletcher Wed Apr 18, 2007 18:21

Quote from previous comment addressing the fallacy of Epoch Times/Falun Gong's "short wait = Sujiatun live organ harvesting" propaganda:

"Clinical Data Casts Doubt On FLG Claims
by bobby fletcher Wed May 03, 2006 23:35

http://www.ustransplant.org/annual_reports/current/105_...h.htm"

Our own "days/weeks" transplant wait time statistics dispells the "weeks in China while years elsewhere" propaganda:

- USA with 1/4 of China's population, performs over 10,000 liver transplants yearly
- 2005 data shows top 10% of wait list average 8 day wait (heart 10 days)
- 2005 data shows top 25% of wait list average 38 day wait (heart 33 days)

- Majority of median wait time, for all type of transplantation, do not exceed one year.

As to the JSRM - I emailed my research to JSRM editor Kamran Abbasi and they are looking into it. The reply I received from JSRM indictaed their article makes no claim on the credibility of the Kilgour report.

Gearled if you want a copy of the email let me know. My blog profile is open to the public.

by Gerald Wed Apr 18, 2007 13:01

Journal of the Royal Society of Medicine in March this year (last month) found the Matas-Kilgour report "credible" given China's "remarkable" organ transplant rate.
http://www.jrsm.org/cgi/content/full/100/3/119

In reply to one of the posters above who was asking where to order the organs the website is: http://en.zoukiishoku.com/ it is in english and it still brazenly brags that it can get organs in three weeks that one may wait five years in other countries to aquire. Of course I am not promoting the website just illustrating that the pool of organs are still available for transplant in china and that the Chinese government has still not answered the simple question of where the organs come from. The UN, the EU, even the Irish government has now asked these questions. I dont believe they except no response indefinitly.

By the way in a debate it is quite a common technique when some one makes a valid point that the other party has no answer to, they change the topic or try to put the person asking the question on the back foot. I believe nearly all the questions regarding organ harvesting have been answered on this list, if one is raised scroll up and you will find the answer.

More and more people are joining the chorus asking for simple answers in relation to the question of organ harvesting of Falun Gong practitioners, ie where are all the organs coming from? In march Manfred Nowack (UN rapateur on torture) recieved a written reply from the Chinese government on this specific issue, has anyone seen a translation?

Personally I hope people posting to the list do not agrue back and forth. Its pointless. Post your opinion and respect other peoples. Thats my two cents.

by bobby fletcher Wed Apr 18, 2007 01:25

"Ex" Epoch reporter Jana Shearer continues her personal attack against me, even after all 2 million of her links have been proven irrelevant, and she has proviced no proof for any of her accusations:

- where's the proof for the "Chinese/Russian double agent"?
- where's the proof I'm paid?
- where's the "jihad webiste"?

Jana Shearer, you have to answer to yourself. Your continued lies will put you in very hot places.

While the fact is my research discrediting Falun Gong's propaganda in no way exhonorate the Chinese government:

- The US embassy report by Thomas Lum was critical of China's treatment of Falun Gong;
- The CECC brief from Senator Feinstein was very critical of China as well;
- The State department investigation never exhonorated China, only that Falun Gong's allegation is not credible;
- The conclusion long time Chinese dissident Harry Wu reached was while Falun Gong's allegation is political propaganda, China still has problems with ethical treatment of the condemned.

There, only in your delusion do I stick up for the Chinese government. The fact is I have been criticizing the Chinese government on the internet before Falun Gong was even invented.

Show your proof for your accusations against me, else conceed you are a liar, Jana Shearer.

by Martin Jacques Tue Apr 17, 2007 17:09

The Chinese Goverment has shown itself unskilled and incompetent in its use of torture, whereas the UK and the US have demonstrated their world -class in this matter quite recently in the Middle East. Surely as part of the UK's development aid to China the well qualified exponents of torture from the Queen's Lancashire Regiment could be sent there to bring the Chinese up the world league table.

by Jana Tue Apr 17, 2007 08:21

Even when the proof is right in front of your face you still deny that very evidence .. Many other good people have also tried to present you with the truth (SEE ABOVE COMMENTS dated back to 2006)which have superseded the links you keep providing in all your comments (see last Bobby's comment )and yet you still refuse acknowledge or even see the updates ,admissions and corrections in the investigations

There is no point in communicating with you Bobby. WE all see and know who you are...

One point to leave you with Bobby and those who have been reading this crazy yet exposing blog is -Bobby has never answered the only question i and others have ever asked of him

WHY DO YOU STICK UP FOR THE COMMUNIST REGIMES?

by bobby fletcher Mon Apr 16, 2007 18:27

Again, show some proof for your accusation. It's really that simple.

- I'm a Chinese/Russian double agent, right where's the proof?
- I'm paid, show the money trail.
- I run a jihad website, what is it? Who owns it? Look up website registration info will ya?

If you have no proof, you will continue to resort to personal attack and not face the facts. Here are the facts at hand:

- US government's secret investigation discredited the allegation
- long time Chinese dissident, who have no reason to help Bejing, also discredited the allegation with independent investigation
- US Congressional researcher Thomas Lum and Emma Ashburn found the claim not credible.

by The Canadian Sentinel Sun Apr 15, 2007 00:14

Yeah, Bobby. Why are you obsessed with claiming that the evil Communists in China aren't doing anything evil, particularly organ harvesting all sorts of innocent human beings they find inconvenient to their agenda?

Why do you hate the peaceful Falun Gong? You haven't proven anything bad about them.

Why do you do all this?

You're all over the place. You never stop. You're like the Energizer Bunny.

Look, there's all sorts of proof being offered to you which you reject... that, indeed, the Communists in China do kill people to sell their organs. For incredible sums.

Do you actually think that the Communists are good people? That they care about all human beings? That they respect human rights, liberty, democracy, the rule of law as made by the people via elected representatives? You actually believe that the Communists are good?

Why on earth would anyone, you in particular, be so ferociously defending the Chinese Communist Party? It's suspicious, to say the least.

Answer those questions, Bobby. The world is watching you. And so are the CCP.

But let me advise you of something hopeful for yourself.

If you are in Canada, you can defect and claim refugee status. You will not be deported. You can help my government discover more about the CCP to help facilitate its demise. And, make no mistake, the CCP must be destroyed.

I mean, no offence, but you're so ineffective, so incompetent, so... exopsed... a propagandist for the CCP that I'm afraid they, having no further use for you... will send you to the organ-harvesting prison... unless you defect.

The CCP is so evil that it will feel no emotion whatsoever about ordering that your organs be harvested. You need to know this. They will kill anyone, no exceptions.

Defect... and Canada will help you.

Quit the CCP.

by bobby fletcher Fri Apr 13, 2007 09:50

Let the world see "Lui" is from Jana's own delusion and mis-spelling:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Jana+bobby+fletche...r+lui

It's all Jana, all the time:

"Bobby Fletcher/alias Charles Lui/alias Teresa Monroe ... Balbulican"

Jana Shearer, at a minimum, owes these two people an apology.

"ex" Epoch Times reporter Jana Shearer has no proof for any of her slanderous lies against me, so she throws up 1.5 million irrelevant links ("charles" is a very popular keyword) that prove nothing.

Here are results typical of Jana's 1.5 million bogus links:

"Damion Fletcher, 20, 58, 2.9, 2. Bobby Weakley"
"Blog Editor. Paul L. Caron Charles ... LUI -- Litigating Under the Influence"
"la France qui lui opposait une autorisation "
"Nouvelles d'Afrique ... good harvest ... smoking harms nearly every organ"

Again, Jana proves she is a liar:

- Where's the proof that Chinese government pays me?

When I say FLG funds Epoch, I cited specific form 990s from FLG non-profit to prove it.

- Where's the proof I'm a Chinese/Russian double agent?

When I say US embassy secretly investigated Sujiatun weeks prior to 3/21 consular visit I cited Thomas Lum's embassy report.

- Where's the proof I run a jihadist website? What is the website?

Jana can't even name the website.

And I already Googled the blog link and proved the origion of Jana's "4 people meeting in library" delusion.

Jana Shearer please seek professional help before it gets worse.

by Jana Fri Apr 13, 2007 09:27

267,000 entires for Bobbys Blogs
http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&...s&btn
G=Search&meta=

Then when we switch to Charles Lui we are talking over the million mark......whos obsessed? this is more than a kooky bunch of friends talking BS on the net....

1,270.000 entires for Charles Lui Blogs
http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&...&btnG
=Search&meta=

17,400 entires for Charles Lui and FAlun Dafa
http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&...&btnG
=Search&meta=

49,500 entries for Charles Lui and Organ harvesting
http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&...&btnG
=Search&meta=

Now I'm bored... point made !!

by bobby fletcher Fri Apr 13, 2007 09:13

Let the world see "Lui" is from Jana's own delusion and mis-spelling:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Jana+bobby+fletche...r+lui

It's all Jana, all the time.

"ex" Epoch Times reporter Jana Shearer has no proof for any of her slanderous lies against me, she throws up half million irrelevant links ("bobby" is a very popular keywords) that proves nothing.

Here are results typical of Jana's 500,000 bogus links:

"Hammond Organ Ospiti: Bob Ezrin"
"Organ 52338-L...(Bobby Heath, Archie Fletcher"
"Tammy Fletcher...harvesting and winemaking"
"Bob Dwyer. Rosie Fletcher"

Again, Jana proves she is a liar:

- Where's the proof that Chinese government pays me?

When I say FLG funds Epoch, I cited specific form 990s from FLG non-profit to prove it.

- Where's the proof I'm a Chinese/Russian double agent?

When I say US embassy secretly investigated Sujiatun weeks prior to 3/21 consular visit I cited Thomas Lum's embassy report.

- Where's the proof I run a jihadist website? What is the website?

Jana can't even name the website.

And I already Googled the blog link and proved the origion of Jana's "4 people meeting in library" delusion.

Jana Shearer please seek professional help before it gets worse.

by Jana Fri Apr 13, 2007 06:57

Why would an everyday normal guy as you describe yourself spend so much time discrediting anyone who exposes the truth about Chinese communist regime? Heres a Google search on Bobby Fletcher

there are literally 33,000 entries by Bobby on Falun Dafa alone
http://www.google.com.au/search?q=Bobby+Fletcher+Falun+...&sa=N

111,000 entries on Organ harvesting alone
http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&...meta=

169,000 entries Bobby Fletcher Spy
http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&...meta=

707,000 entries Bobby Fletcher anti American
http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&...meta=

132,000 entries Bobby Fletcher pro communism
http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&...meta=

You are a professional propagandist. You would not have time to earn another living else where with all these entries
And i have not even searched for Charles Lui your other alias

by Bobby Fri Apr 13, 2007 06:43

My letter to all VIPs and MPs

China’s New Regulation on Organ Harvesting  a Life-Saver or a Face-saver?

The China State Council’s new regulation which will theoretically ban the trade in human organs and make it a crime to harvest organs without the owner’s permission, has been designed only to deflect criticism of the Chinese communist regime’s dismal Human Rights record in the lead up to the 2008 Olympics.

Both David Kilgour and David Matas co-authors of the report, Investigation into Forced Organ Harvesting of Falun Gong Practitioners, have now urged the International Olympic Committee not only to pressure China for access to investigate these crimes but are calling for an end to any persecution of Falun Gong practitioners in China in the run up to the 2008 Beijing Games.

How Can Anyone Believe This New Regulation Will Protect Falun Gong Practitioners When:

The Chinese Communist Party has a history of ignoring its own Constitution (which guarantees both freedom of belief and freedom of speech), as well as UN conventions it has signed and ratified, such as the Convention Against Torture, when it suits its purpose.

Why would it be any different with this regulation when the Ccp won’t even admit that it is persecuting Falun Gong? The Ccp has dismissed the Organ Harvesting Report out of hand completely.

The People’s Liberation Army stands outside of State Council regulatory control. China’s hundreds of military hospitals are heavily implicated in the organ harvesting allegations.

Last year’s 1 July regulation banned the sale of organs. Yet, as the updated Matas-Kilgour report notes, in November 2006 Belgian Senator Patrik Vankrunkelsven called two different hospitals in Beijing, pretending to be a customer for a kidney transplant – and both hospitals offered him a kidney on the spot for 50,000 euros!

Branches of the Coalition to Investigate the Persecution of Falun Gong (CIPFG) have applied to Chinese embassies and consulates around the world, including the consulates in Sydney and Melbourne, to ask for access to Chinese hospitals and detention centres to investigate these crimes. To date, not a single application has been approved.

The Chinese communist regime is very worried about the resilience of Falun Gong

Mr.Gao Zhisheng a Christian human rights lawyer who defended Falun Gong was tortured and interrogated for 6 months in 2006. A recently released Gao said “In the entire case, what they were most concerned with is the resilience of Falun Gong practitioners. I feel clearly that the biggest worry inside the evil regime is Falun Gong and the issue of civil rights.”

As the Ccp’s systematic persecution of Falun Gong continues to worsen in the lead up to the 2008 Beijing Games, Chinese officials have once again attempted to craftily turn the world’s attention away from the persecution and genocide that has been thriving under the communist rule.

The Ccp’s historical objectives are to liberate mankind by imposing on the world communist ideology of inciting struggle and revolution thru deception and repression. The Ccp’s history of persecuting its own people has always been a vital element in gaining and maintaining political power in China. This century it is Falun Gong that is being persecuted.

The latest regulation on the sale of organs is another CCP stratagem to avoid having to answer to its own past and present dismal crimes against humanity.

I sincerely hope that all good people of conscience will not remain silent on this issue and will continue the initiatives in the run up to the 2008 Olympic Games to bring an immediate end to any persecution of Falun Gong in China.

by bobby fletcher Fri Apr 13, 2007 06:26

The right wing blogger Canadian Sentinel provided no proof what so ever.

"ex" Epoch reporter Jana Shearer has no proof for any of her accusation against me. She just cite her kooky friends who also have no proof:

- Where's Jana's proof Chinese government pays me?

- Where's Jana's proof I'm a Chinese/Russian double agent?

- Where's Jana's proof I own a jihadist website? What is the website even?

- I already Googled the blog link and proved the origion of Jana's "4 people meeting in library" delusion.

Jana Shearer please seek professional help before it gets worse.

by Jana Fri Apr 13, 2007 06:11

Chinese: US 'Rude' To Mention Tiananmen
http:// thecanadiansentinel.blogs...iananmen+square

I believe I've encountered Bobby Fletcher before, and concluded the same: Chinese spy. There's a thousand of them, I understand, in Canada alone.

Not a very good spy, so easily exposed.

Guess the Chinese aren't so good at international espionage... they keep getting found out all the time. Funny how they act all offended when caught... don't really deny... just say, "How could you? Where's the trust?" How ironic!

They're lucky right now that people don't worry much these days, except for some of us, who understand the lethal threat the SinoCommunists pose to the Free World in the long run.
Bobby, who are you anyway? Got any financial interest in propping up the Sinobutchers so they can build a military capable of succeeding where Hitler and Hirohito failed?

Oh, yes... China is the beacon of freedom, democracy, the rule of law and human rights. They don't use political opponents as organ providers for the immoral, unethical sale of human body parts to the Free World and anyone willing to pay a big price... so they can amass their military machine in preparation for the execution of their hidden agenda... and in the meantime, Bush gets damned as the most evil tyrant of all time by those on your side of the political spectrum!

My lord... the lengths the left goes to to support butchers via the suppression of freedom, democracy, the rule of law and human rights...

I feel ill, but my resolve is unwavering to defeat evil!

Have at the leftists if you will, my fellow freedom loving conservatives....
Canadian Sentinel | Homepage | 06.07.06 - 2:25 pm | #
________________________________________
Is "Bobby Fletcher" your real name?

Or are you one of those filthy, disgusting, reprehensible spies sent by the Evil Sinocommunist Imperial Empire to advance its terrible interests worldwide?

You're a Chinese Communist Party member, aren't you? Or at least an insane apologist therefor?

And you support the evil horror of ORGAN HARVESTING. Oh, yes, I visited that blog of yours.

Watch what you say... because I just might stoop to your level and... CENSOR YOU!
Canadian Sentinel

by bobby fletcher Fri Apr 13, 2007 06:01

The right wing blog "ex" Epoch reporter Jana Shearer mentioned in no way proves any of her accusation against me:

- Where's the proof that Chinese government pays me?

- Where's the proof I'm a Chinese/Russian double agent?

- Where's the proof I own a jihadist website? What is the website?

- I already Googled the blog link and proved the origion of Jana's "4 people meeting in library" delusion.

Jana Shearer please seek professional help before it gets worse.

by bobby fletcher Fri Apr 13, 2007 05:41

Again, I managed to track down the source of Epoch Times reporter Jana Shearer's delusion.

***Jana Shearer accused me of meeting with 4 people in a library once a month.***

This a lie. So where did Jana Shearer pull this out of her jumbled mind? A Google search led me back to a May 2006 blog entry I had forgotten about:

http://sujiatunfactorhoax.blogspot.com/2006/05/heres-an....html

This blog entry mentioned an Amnesty International coordinator Epoch Times boasted about, Laura Nuechterlein. Laura disavowed association with Falun Gong after seeing US government and Chinese dissident's secret investigations:

"I decided to contact Ms. Nuechterlein. Turns out she is the coordinator of a local AI chapter (Group 4 in Seattle, consists of 3-***4 people) that meets in local library once a month***."

There, I just demonstrated how does "ex" Epoch Times reporter Jana Shearer's predictable, delusional mind, operates.

by Jana Fri Apr 13, 2007 05:41

Here is one site that also exposed Bobby as a pro communist. Booby has argued with this blogger over many issues with his usual style of twisting the truth and trying to turn the fault back on America for being anti Chinese...Which was never the issue on any of these worthy stories. Anyone that is pro commie has a problem. Let me make this clear now we are not Anti Chinese we are anti communist regime.

Booby won't even address this truth....

http://coverforaction.blogspot.com/2007/04/bobby-fletch....html

by bobby fletcher Thu Apr 12, 2007 22:57

Cite the proof. Where is this supposed meeting? What web link you can show as proof?

It's really that simple. Without backing up your accusation with proof, you continue to show the world what Falun Gong and its paper Epoch Times, is all about.

by Jana Thu Apr 12, 2007 13:19

Bobby Fletcher and his 4 team mates who meet in the library each month

It is you that has said that Falun Gong is bad .

You have slandered Falun Gong and even Christianity which i believe is but one of the religions you use to slander other righteous religions . I have several blogs from you saying that you are Jewish and Christian and even Islamic but you know Iv'e never seen one ounce of any righteous practise come out of your mouth mind or heart.

I don't have to try and stop you there are other forces that will do that Bobby just don't say I didn't warn you .

You twist everyones words from Jesus to Mohammed's and even Mr Li's. and that is what will get you in very hot water. Nothing i say can stop that . its not me condemning you I dont have that power.

These Great Beings whose scriptures teachings and words you twist exist, and Gods Buddhas and Daos never tolerate this sort of behaviors from mere mortals and without a doubt enormous retribution is coming your way.

If you were really a practicing Christian Muslim or Falun Gong you would know this, Never Never take the words of a God and twist them for your immediate gratification or benefit.

by bobby fletcher Thu Apr 12, 2007 06:51

Jana Shearer, all you are capable of is hate, personal attack, spat venom.

What, can't face the facts? You say I'm paid, where's your proof?

You say I work for the Chinese, the Russians, and run Jihadist website - where's your proof?

I've tracked down two other bloggers you have accused of being "me".

I just proved you lied, on all accounts.

Where's your Truth? Benevolence? Forebearance? At a minimum you owe those people an sincere apology.

Jana your false witness against me will put you in very hot places.

Your actions speaks louder than words. You are showing the world what FLG is all about!

by Jana Thu Apr 12, 2007 05:59

You know what ,all you people are all like storms in a teacup. You don't amount to much you never have and never will. I'd hate to be in your shoes about now or in the near future. Find a new life ,pursue happiness because you have definably missed out on any success in the truth stakes.

Anyone with any intelligence respect and credibility does not believe anything you guys say. So i turn my back on you now Bobby and your teammates. Ill let all the other people take this issue up with you and believe me there are plenty of investigations going on at the moment to track you down by exposing you for the fraud that you are.

REMEMBER THESE WORDS

FAlun Gong is Good

by bobby fletcher Wed Apr 11, 2007 21:15

Jana Shearer, "ex" FLG paper Epoch TImes reporter, had you bothered to run the Google News search I provided, you would've found out Where David Matas and David Kilgour WILL BE.

For example, it was all over the net LAST MONTH that Kilgour and Wang Wenyi will be at Detroit next week - that's right, Epoch Times and all you disiples blogged the hell out of it.

So much for David Mata's BS claim.

by bobby fletcher Wed Apr 11, 2007 21:05

Jana Shearer accuses others of being paid, but where's proof? I categorically deny this allegation, and demand Jana produce proof that I'm paid.

Jana Shearer accuses others of being "Chinese spy", "Russian spy", "running Jihad website" - all without any proof. I categorically deny these allegation, and demand Jana produce proof that I'm the owner of whatever this website is, and my connection with Chinese AND Russian spy agencies.

Where's your proof Jana?

How convienent you "left" Epoch Times in June 2006:

- I've been dealing with your accusation since April 2006.
- The recent Wester Standards article you cited yourself have identified you as an Epoch Times reporter.

Where's your Truth Jana?

by R. Isible Wed Apr 11, 2007 19:52

1. Don't abuse indymedia.ie with cut and paste material
A lot of the above material is cut and pasted from other sources. That's against the editorial guidelines. Several of the posters doing this have been using indymedia.ie for long enough to figure this out. Write a brief summary and provide a link to the original source.

2. What proof is there of the international trade in organs? All the stories seem to center on remote, inaccesible societies e,g. People's Republic of China, India, Turkey, e.g. somewhere-out-foreign

I went looking for what I remembered as being the only confirmed "local" story (which IIRC was a Harley St. doctor who was struck off for buying kidneys from Turkish workers), but couldn't find any links to a reputable news source.

Is the whole thing just modern vampire stories reflecting our own dehumanising of foreigners "those Chinese/Indians/Turks, they don't value human life like we Westerners do, life is cheap there"?

by Austin Morgan - None Wed Apr 11, 2007 17:12

Who do you apply to in order to buy any of the organs?

by Jana Wed Apr 11, 2007 11:11

Here we go again,

See Bobby -----David Matas said

"The only concern Matas has is that Liu seems to know who he and Kilgour met with in the United States to discuss their report. Matas discovered Liu had sent e-mails to politicians--and their staff--prior to the meetings. "The only people who would have that information would potentially be the Chinese government. I can't imagine how Liu would know we were meeting with those people," Matas says. "We're not super-secretive, but you can't find information on the Internet or in any public place about who we're meeting with, where and when." He himself has received at least 10 e-mails from Liu, all of which he's ignored.

Prior to the meetings Bobby you knew prior not after the meetings. Anyone can google search and find out what they have done after the event. Matas has clearly said that you knew where he was going before ,in advance, prior, not after.

This is a typical thing Bobby does all the time it thinks that by confusing the issue we wont catch on.

You will have try a little harder than that Bobby . On second thought don't waste your time. No one believes you because you have aligned yourself with the CCP and no one in the west believes them.

by Jana Wed Apr 11, 2007 10:56

Bobby / Charles I do not work for the Epoch Times. I stopped working for the Epoch Times in May 2006. I began exposing you after i left I had more time to do so then. I had been watching for a while what you were saying and doing on blogs and finally I decided to speak out.

As for Bauliblican Iv 'e told you he has already been exposed by another blogger .Not just me. Take it up with him.. You have also been exposed by The Canadian Sentianel as well for being a spy long before I ever exposed you/ And this guy does not work for EET and is not a FAlun Gong practitioner either.

So all sorts of people find your comments bizarre and inhuman as you support and protect the CCP thereby sanctioning and aligning yourself with the Ccp murderous reputation .

You said in your article that we were just a bunch of kooky friends talking BS what it sort of a lie is that ? Is that what you call me your kooky friend?

Call me what you like but I am not talking BS, you are ,but all of us who stand up for the goodness of humanity are not talking BS.

Now go away and take up a good cause to help save the world...

by bobby fletcher Wed Apr 11, 2007 09:22

Matas' appearances pumped by FLG so much, it's hard not to know where he is.

A simple Google News search shows it all, again no spycraft is necessary:

http://news.google.com/news?q=Kilgour+Matas

Poor Mr. Matas, looks like Falun Gong's paranoia is rubbing off on him.

by bobby fletcher Wed Apr 11, 2007 09:11

I managed to track down the other two people Jana Shearer have accused of being "me":

"Balbulican" - a Canadian progressive blogger

"Teresa Monroe Hamilton" - quite famous for her blog noisyroom.net

These people are not me, and Epoch Times reporter Jana Shearer have slandered them. Jana at a minimum you owe those people a sincere apology.

Don't worry Jana, you ain't alone on this one. Just ask your fellow reporters Lorraine Kabacinski(TruthBeKnown/ShivaLor) and Jan Jekielek(LongTrekHome). I have emails from them to prove it.

And this Indymedia entry proves Epoch Times editors like Gearld is in on it too.

Epoch Times, your editor/reporter's lack of journalistic integrety is clearly illustrated to the world, and why the propaganda you spat is suspect.

by Jana Wed Apr 11, 2007 07:44

Thats because Bobby alias/Charles there are so many of you paid professionals on the internet spreading lies and propaganda for your bosses the communist regimes.

Balbulican has also been exposed as a spy probably Russian not Chinese but never the less very obstructive and seeing as the both the Chinese and Russian communist regimes are in bed together well say no more..

Heres another article about spies and just how rampant they are in USA from Bill Gertz Washington Post
http://coverforaction.blogspot.com/2007_04_01_archive.html

It has been acknowledged that Ccp has at least 80,000 internet spies keeping tabs on the rest of the world's opinion of it.

Chen Yonglin Sydney Chinese Consulate defector Australia 2006 said his job was to spy on Falun Gong and he stated that there were at least 1000 spies in Australia alone.

So the chances are that whenever someone tries to discredit any human rights evidences against the Ccp then either they are extremely brainwashed or uneducated or the next logical conclusion is just so obvious. And that is what you are Bobby/Charles a spy, a dirty rotten spy that spread lies and deceit about the good people while propping up the failing evil Ccp.

Quit the Ccp while you can Bobby yours and the regime time is up!!

by Makina Wed Apr 11, 2007 03:46

The article exposing Bobby Fletcher is from Western Standard -- not the Epoch Times. Read again.

BTW Jana is entitled to her own opinion Bobby and does not necessarily represent the views of the paper she (used) to work for.

Matas is still shaking his head and wondering how Bobby knew about their meeting place ahead of time...maybe Jana has a good point.

by bobby fletcher Fri Apr 06, 2007 23:19

This a a perfect illustration of Epoch Times' propaganda factor IMHO.

I have asked Jana Shearer, an Epoch Times reporter, to produce the proof that I'm a Chinese spy. Jana has NOT ONCE produced any proof.

Now Jana has even accused me of being a Russian spy, and that I am a terrorist running a jihadist website - all without any proof what so ever.

And this is not the only time Jana has slandered people. Here's another blogger who she accused:

http://www.stageleft.info/2007/02/13/in-which-balbulica...-spy/

Other Epoch Times reporters have also resorted to the "spy" charge when people speak up against their propaganda.

Gearld, you as an editor of Epoch Times, should feel ashamed. But instead you gladly repeat this baseless accusation.

What happened to the "Truth" you proclaim?

by Gerald Mon Apr 02, 2007 00:01

The below article in the western standard raises some serious questions about Bobby Fletcher/Charles Liu who has posted multiple posts on indymedia.ie. Its definitly worth reading for the people who have been following the organ harvesting story.

Copyright 2007 Western Standard
All Rights Reserved
Western Standard (Alberta)
April 9, 2007 Monday
Final Edition
SECTION: NEWS; Pg. 24
LENGTH: 699 words
HEADLINE: Sowing Confusion; Embarrassed by reports of live organ harvesting, China's sympathizers launch a high-tech disinformation campaign
BYLINE: Kevin Steel, Western Standard
BODY:

He posts his messages everywhere under several different names on Internet blogs and discussion groups. He writes letters to the editor anywhere and sends e-mails to anyone--anyone who might take seriously shocking evidence that the Chinese government "harvests" and sells live organs from political prisoners. His main message is that the Falun Gong--the group which first brought evidence of live organ harvesting to light--and the Epoch Times newspaper that broke that story are spreading propaganda against China's Communist government. And he's not even Chinese. He is Charles Liu, a 40-year-old Taiwanese-born technology consultant who lives in Issaquah, Wash., and does business in China.

Liu has been so active and so pro-Beijing in his writings that some Falun Gong supporters--in particular Epoch Times reporter Jana Shearer--have accused him of being an agent for the Chinese government, waging a disinformation campaign against them, trying to confuse people, and deliberately wasting everyone's time.

It's a charge that upsets Liu, who dismisses it as "a bunch of kooky friends making unfounded accusations. It's just a bunch of blog BS." As for why he devotes so much energy to attacking the Falun Gong and the organ harvesting allegations, he says, "My position is that I simply don't agree with their brand of politics, because I observed their politics turning from anti-Communist party, to anti-China, . . . and recently it's morphed into this anti-Chinese hysteria and that's going to be hurting people," he says. As an Asian-American, he says he decided to speak up.

He doesn't really explain, when asked, why he started a blog last year called "The Myth of Tiananmen Square Massacre" under the name of Bobby Fletcher (one of his online aliases, which he also uses to comment on the Western Standard's online blog). On that blog, he pushes the minimal 250 casualty figure that the Chinese government has always maintained died that night in 1989 (more reliable estimates put the figure at at least ten times that).

Liu's actions mirror disinformation campaigns waged by the Chinese government in the past. Typically, these include the deliberate spreading of false or misleading facts to sow confusion or doubt among the conflicting accounts. The classic example is the Tiananmen Square massacre; the Chinese government has maintained that no one died in the square itself, that there was only pushing and shoving on the streets around the square, resulting in a few military casualties. Overseas, the CCP relies on its United Front Work department, part of the Chinese intelligence service, to propagate its message. During the Cold War, the Soviets employed many overseas flunkies through their Disinformation Department.

Former Canadian MP David Kilgour, who co-authored a report on China's macabre organ harvesting industry, has received many propaganda e-mails from Liu. For instance, Liu has written repeatedly that a U.S. congressional committee looked into the organ harvesting allegations and found nothing. "[David] Matas and I gave evidence to that subcommittee and got support from both the Republican chairman and the Democratic vice-chair," says Kilgour. "I just came to the conclusion he was trying to waste my time, and I have other things to do."

Winnipeg-based human rights lawyer, and Kilgour's co-author, David Matas, really doesn't know what to make of Liu. "I don't know who he is, but what he does is spend a lot of time replicating nonsense to defend the Chinese government," Matas says.

The only concern Matas has is that Liu seems to know who he and Kilgour met with in the United States to discuss their report. Matas discovered Liu had sent e-mails to politicians--and their staff--prior to the meetings. "The only people who would have that information would potentially be the Chinese government. I can't imagine how Liu would know we were meeting with those people," Matas says. "We're not super-secretive, but you can't find information on the Internet or in any public place about who we're meeting with, where and when." He himself has received at least 10 e-mails from Liu, all of which he's ignored. Maybe Matas is onto something with that approach.

by bobby fletcher Thu Mar 22, 2007 03:17

Please take a look at what you originally wrote a year ago.

So Epoch is backing down from the "concentration camp", "vivisection" allegation? The BBC article you cited mentions nothing about Falun Gong or live organ harvesting.

If Mr. Matas' never seen a dinosaure, does it mean dinosaures didn't exist? I hope you will forward him this example of consent to him, because about a billion people have seen it:

http://news.sina.com.cn/s/p/2006-03-20/12299394605.shtml

It's about a guy who turned himself in for killing his wife’s lover. Before he was to pay with his life, he decided to donate his organ as last act of redemption, and willed the organ donation compensation fund paid by the state to the victim’s family. In his interview he indicated the reason he called for press is to help bring awareness to organ donation in China:

Many such cases exists in China:

http://www.baidu.com/s?ie=gb2312&bs=%CB%C0%C7%F4+%BE%E8...&ct=0

Some people would simply disregard Chinese media's reporting about themselves, insisting on what they know about China, like Buddhist culture and people's desire to die "whole" (probably learned from the movie "The Last Emperor".)

It probably is still true to some degree, but folks forget most Chinese are not criminals. Does one really believe "wholeness" applies to criminals in Buddhism? Above article demonstrates a common rationale for the condemned to consent to organ donation - the Buddhist desire for redemption.

You may find this irrational and indefensible.

But just for reference US allows death row inmate to donate organ to relatives on a case-by-case basis, and there are state legislations in proposal. Also until very recently Republic Of China (Taiwan) allowed this too.

Chinese culture and Buddhist religious foundation makes organ donation difficult to promote. However the condemned often seek redemption and last act of contribution to family and society, under the same cultural and religious foundation.

Yes, the Chinese government's organ donation compensation fund seems to be direct at this population, but its aim is to promote organ donation.

You may find faults in it. But who are we to deny their reality, and self-righteously accuse them with our Western sensitivity?

I do recognize there are abuses and irregularity, after all even in our own society where organ donation is more accepted, there are abuses and irregularity still.

But does this constitute “Auschwitz”?

by Gerald Sun Mar 04, 2007 22:55

Actually it is possible for countires outside China to ensure they have no role in China's organ harvesting trade. Because most of the organs are sold at very high prices ie upto 50,000 euro then only rich foreigners can afford them. Then countries outside China need to change the laws that relate to organ transplant in their own country, for example in Ireland it says on the citizen information website that "If a person carries out medical or surgical procedures without consent, he/she could be charged with the crime of assault - the decision on charges is made by the Director of Public Prosecutions."

Therefore if this is made to apply when Irish individuals want to get an organ transplant abroad, they MUST proof there was consent of the donor.

If Irish pharmacutical companies want to sell after care anti rejection drugs to institutions they must be able to proof that in those institutions that the donors of organs do so with consent.

And the same goes for univercities with a medical faculty that may buy corpses or body parts from abroad. They have to prove that were they purchased these, that consent was given before death.
( http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6416459.stm)

If this is done, it will cut the demand for organ harvesting in China. During Human Rights Lawyer and co-author of Bloody harvest David Matas presentation in the Dail he mentioned that he had never seen consent forms in relation to organ transplants in China.

by bobby fletcher Sun Mar 04, 2007 02:15

While Kilgour/Matas didn't go to China, the US embassy and long time Chinese dissident Harry Wu both conducted secret investigation inside China.

And their conclusion contradicted the Kilgour report. In addition US congressional research expert Thomas Lum and Emma Ashburn both reviewed the Kilgour report and found it not credible.

And you are not being truthful when you said everyone believes the Kilgour report. The last time you cited the committee transcript, Deputy Allen very clearly challanged Kilgour.

See committee transcript cited in comment 127 where Deputy Allen objected to Kilgour's conclusion.

by Gerald Fri Mar 02, 2007 14:09

Bobby,

If you read Mr Matas and Mr Kilgour's report you would know that he discusses the difficultly of finding a wittness who has suffered organ harvesting because their organs would have been removed and they would not be alive. The doctors invloved are also criminals who have killed each person they harvested the organs from, so these murders are not about to come foward. Kilgour and Matas have used a method of trying to disprove the allegations by following up a number of leads available to them. Each time they tried to disprove a certain lead in the investigation, what they found lead them to believe even more that the allegation of organ harvesting of Falun Gong practitioners is true.

Mr Matas is a human rights lawyer, and Mr Kilgour is a former secretary of state for Asia for Canada, as well as a fomer Crown Attorney for the Dauphin Judicial District in Manitoba. In their report these reputable lawyers have 33 categories of proof that have convinced them that organ harvesting is taking place.

During Mr. Matas committee discussion in the Irish parliment on Wednesday the 27th of Feb 2007, he said that most people agree with the findings after reading the report, and none of the members of parliment present disagreed with him. Instead they spent an hour discussing how to investigate futher and how to ensure Ireland plays no part in the Chinese communist rejime's organ harvesting of Falun Gong practitioners.

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/breaking/2007/0227/bre...0.htm
http://www.eveningecho.ie/news/bstory.asp?j=211642562&p...43322

For the show on Pat Kenny go to and choose to listen to Wednesdays show. It was on at 10:50
http://www.rte.ie/radio1/todaywithpatkenny/1044604.html

by bobby fletcher Thu Mar 01, 2007 21:38

Gerald, here's what your citation said about the Falun Gong allegation promoted by Kilgour:

"To date, no concrete evidence has been revealed to substantiate the allegations contained in this report.
...
allegations regarding the involuntary harvesting of human organs, including from the Falun Gong, remain unproven"

by Gerald Mon Feb 12, 2007 15:35

Murphy Questions Foreign Affairs Minister on Alleged Organ Harvesting on Falun Gong Practitioners
Dáil Question, 8th February 2007 (For Oral Reply)

Catherine Murphy, TD asked the following questions of Minister for Foreign Affairs, Mr Dermott Ahern as part of her continuing support for the Falun Gong practitioners' campaigning for the cessation of alleged Human Rights Abuses being perpetrated against Falun Gong practitioners living in China.

17. To ask the Minister for Foreign Affairs if his Department has concluded their investigations into the alleged human rights abuses being perpetrated by the Chinese Government against Falun Gong Practitioners; if his Department has been in contact with the Chinese Government regarding these allegations in order to request a response from them; the details of such contact; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
- Catherine Murphy. Ref No: 4411/07

53. To ask the Minister for Foreign Affairs if his Department will issue a travel warning to those wishing to travel to China for organ transplant operations in view of the significant evidence which suggests that interned Falun Gong practitioners are having organs forceably removed to supply demand for such services; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
- Catherine Murphy. Ref No: 4410/07

REPLY - Minister for Foreign Affairs, Mr Dermott Ahern

I view very seriously the allegations relating to the harvesting of live organs from Falun Gong practitioners. Enquiries on this issue have been made by the Department of Foreign Affairs within the EU and UN frameworks, as well as through our Embassy in Beijing.

A senior official from the Department met with Mr David Kilgour during his visit to Dublin last November to discuss the findings of the report prepared by him and Mr. Matas on behalf of the Coalition to Investigate the Persecution of the Falun Gong in China (CIPFG). I have asked that these contacts be maintained to ensure that I am kept properly informed on this issue. My Department is also in direct contact with representatives of the Falun Gong in Ireland. To date, no concrete evidence has been revealed to substantiate the allegations contained in this report. However, the matter is being kept under review by my officials and enquiries by the EU and other organisations are continuing.

For some time, concerns have been raised about the harvesting of organs of executed prisoners in China. The Chinese Government now state that this only occurs where the prior consent of the individuals has been obtained, but concerns about this practice remain. I am also aware of allegations of a trade in human organs in China generally. I would note that the sale of organs for transplant is illegal in China, and that the authorities state that they are firmly opposed to the illegal trade in human organs for transplant. In July last year, the Chinese Government introduced a regulation to govern the clinical use of body parts as well as the transplantation of body parts. I understand that they are in the process of drawing up ethical guidelines to cover the regulation of the organ donor and transplant market in general. I hope that these guidelines can be brought forward as soon as possible. Wherever this practice occurs, and whatever the circumstances, the illegal harvesting of, and trafficking in, human organs is a deplorable act.

As regards the specific issue of a travel warning raised by Deputy Murphy, I do not feel it appropriate for my Department to issue travel advice regarding organ transplant operations in China. As it stands, I am not aware of any cases of Irish people travelling to China for such operations. But I certainly would urge extreme caution to anyone considering travelling to the region for such purposes and advise them to inform themselves fully of all the issues, including Chinese Government regulations prohibiting the sale of organs.

Although allegations regarding the involuntary harvesting of human organs, including from the Falun Gong, remain unproven, I do believe that it is in the interests of the Chinese authorities to reassure the international community that everything possible is being done to ensure that all practices involving the use of human organs conform to international standards. It is also essential that the Chinese government seek to address the considerable human rights concerns that have been raised, including those relating to the situation of Falun Gong practitioners .

As reported to this House on many occasions previously, questions relating to the treatment of the Falun Gong - including specific cases -, and issues relating to human rights and fundamental freedom more generally, are raised regularly in our own bilateral dialogue with the Government of China and in the EU-China Human Rights Dialogue.

When I met with Chinese Foreign Minister Li Zhaoxing on 12 May during a visit to Beijing, I had the opportunity to raise human rights issues and concerns, including the importance we attach to freedom of speech and freedom of religion. More recently, the Tánaiste held official talks on 25 September with visiting Chinese Vice-Premier Zeng Peiyan during which he also raised human rights issues and concerns. Discussions in this regard also take place at official level here and in Beijing.

by Gerald Fri Jan 05, 2007 17:44

http://news.sky.com/skynews/video/videoplayer/0,,31200-....html

This report is shocking. I wonder what they did with the valuable healthy organs they removed? What was the tests they were doing? It is important to note that since the claims of organ harvesting of Falun Gong practitioners has emerged has emerged, BBC news and Sky news have done their own reports on the harvesting of organs from executed prisonors, and now the taking of organs from healthy citizens.

Shocking and disturbing.

by Gerald Sat Dec 23, 2006 18:56

Mr. Kilgour said in the meeting with the Irish governments committee on Foreign Affairs: "We are not talking about allegations; we are talking about evidence, proof and disproof. We examined 18 categories of proof. Deputy Allen might say he does not like category No. 16 or No. 2 but when all 18 categories point in the same direction, namely, that this is happening on a large scale, reasonable people who read the report carefully will come to the conclusion that it must be happening."

Please note the co-author is a respected lawyer who knows very well about evidence and proof. It is worth reminding readers to this discussion that the authors are very well respected in Canada. One was the secretary of state for the Asia/ Pacific region for the Canadian government.

It was very good to see that the Irish government plans to investigate these claims further and prove them for themselves. The same is happening in the US, Australia and other parts of Asia.

by bobby fletcher Fri Dec 22, 2006 02:33

I hope all the Falun Gong propaganda outlets, such as Epoch Times, New Tang Dynasty TV, Sound of Hope, various pretend NGOs, will stop lying to people about this ALLEGATION being proven.

Here's what Kilgour himeself admitted to - his report does not have conclusive evidence to back up the allegation:

"Deputy Allen: Also, the Chinese Government claims that the sale of organs for transplant is illegal in China. Mr. Kilgour may laugh but I have to put the questions. Am I correct in interpreting that the report does not have conclusive evidence to back up the allegations made?

Mr. Kilgour: Yes, I-----"

by Gerald Tue Dec 19, 2006 17:57

This is very interesting and not too long to read. Its the presenation in the government by the author of the Organ Harvesting report on Falun Gong practitioners organs. Lets hope the Irish government takes the initiative as suggested to start their own investigation.
http://debates.oireachtas.ie/DDebate.aspx?F=FOJ20061123...age=1

by Gerald Thu Nov 23, 2006 23:23

Today the Oireachtas committee for foreign affairs said it will ask the Chinese Ambassador to Ireland to answer the very serious claims made about Organ Harvesting of Falun Gong practitioners:

They also called on the Chinese authorities to allow an independent investigation to be made in China into the claims.

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/breaking/2006/1123/bre...7.htm

by Gerald Thu Nov 23, 2006 02:50

One of the authors of the Canadian report on organ harvesting will do a presentation to the joint commitee on foreign affairs tomorrow in the Irish government. I think the gallery is open to the public. It starts ten tomorrow morning.
____________________________________________
On a separate note, I read recently that the Canadian government has now sent a Chinese embassy offical home for spying on Falun Gong:
http://www.canada.com/topics/news/national/story.html?i...90496

Thats officals in the Chinese Embassy in Canada and Chinese Embassy in Australia now that have either admitted to spying on Falun Gong practitioners or were caught. Could there be a wider campaign that the Chinese Embassies world wide are apart of?

by bobby fletcher Wed Nov 22, 2006 22:16

Frist of all, Epoch Times' role as propaganda outlet paid for by FLG is not a secret, see comment 93 for the money trail between Epoch Times and FLG leadership:

http://www.indymedia.ie/article/74819#comment165347

Also, you are correct that FLG's leader, Master Li, has enjoyed substantial monetary gains. A Wall Street Journal article reported that Li's wife, Li Rui, has in her name two houses in NY totaling nearly ONE MILLION USD$:

November 1, 1999, Wall Street Journal, International Section, Pages A41 & A46 (Most US libraries have WSJ archive on microfilm.)

by bobby fletcher Tue Nov 21, 2006 06:00

RobbieS forgot to google to see if Epoch Times cited appearance by Laura Nuechterlein to prop up their claim.

What RobbieS also forgot to mention is the fact none of the links he provided proves FLG's live organ harvesting allegation.

This is while US government investigation and independent investigation by long time Chinese democracy activist Harry Wu has specifically discredited the Sujiatun/Auschwitz allegation.

by Gerald Fri Nov 17, 2006 19:12

takesgut said "Falun Gong like any other religion is meant to get someone rich".

Although Falun gong is not a religion, you should check out the Falun Gong webpages, all audio, video, books and assistance are free of charge:
Dozens of full Books:
http://www.falundafa.org/eng/books.htm
Audio and video materials:
http://www.falundafa.org/eng/media.htm

All completely free and if you read the books you will realise that you dont even have to go any local practice site if you dont want to, and you can practice it all on your own at home. Completely free, no charges, leave no name and no hassle.

and even better if you start to like it you may start to pass it on to your friends and family completely free of charge.

Where is the catch you ask?

Dunno. Tell me if you find one.

by RobbieS Fri Nov 17, 2006 10:02

Concerns apart from those of Falun Dafa have been well documented.

Amnesty International
http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/engasa170462006

Human Rights Watch find the practice dates back to 1994.
http://www.hrw.org/reports/1994/china1/china_948.htm

not surprising that voa would attack China’s Human Rights record, perhaps:
http://www.voanews.com/english/archive/2006-10/2006-10-...73065

bbc give credence to human rights groups’ concerns:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4853188.stm

In the spring of this year, I heard an interview on BBC Radio Four's Today programme in which the non-Falun Gong Human Rights activist stated that it was easy to measure the amount of recipient operations in China, vs. the number of donor operations. The inconsistency, he said, is overwhelming. Not even mass-importation of such organs (which would be daft) could make up the numbers.

Bobby's reliance on an email from one Amnesty International member in Seattle, who is in a group of 3-4 members who meet monthly in a library, is disingenuous, as the above links demonstrate.

by bobby Fletcher Thu Nov 16, 2006 22:16

Here's what Amnesty International coordinator Laura Nuechterlein had to say after reviwing all the facts surrounding the case:

>From: "Amnesty International Group 4"
...
>I was careful to indicate that AI has not made any statement on the death
>camp allegations, I did say that we would welcome an outside investigation
>(I mentioned the UN Special Rapporteur on Torture). In the prepared
>statement that I read, I barely mentioned Falun Gong at all, instead I
>described some of AI's general concerns with China's human rights record.
>When I was interviewed after reading my statement, I prefaced my comments
>with things like "we don't know the full story of what happened" or "if
>these allegations are true" etc. I agree with you that the story was pretty
>dubious to begin with, and I'm frankly not surprised that these claims are
>being discredited.
...

Please defened human rights with FACTS. Nefarious indictment only hurts your casue, Mr. O'Connor.

BTW, Mr. O'Connor is the editor of Epoch Times Ireland. Epoch's function as Falun Gong propaganda outlet is not a secret.

by Gerald Sat Nov 04, 2006 18:47

Prisoners executed for organs claim
Western countries are beginning to pay high-level attention to accusations that Chinese authorities are killing jailed members of the banned Falun Gong spiritual movement in order to sell their body parts for organ transplants, reports suggest.
A subcommittee of the US House of Representatives held a hearing on the accusations on 29 September while the issue was also raised at foreign minister level at the China-European Union summit meeting on 9 September in Helsinki.

The basis for the attention was a report published in July by two Canadian human rights lawyers who examined claims that the Chinese authorities were killing prisoners in order to sell their organs at home and overseas.

A Falun Gong association in North America asked the two lawyers, David Matas and David Kilgour, to help them investigate allegations that prisoners not sentenced to death by any court were being killed.

While statistics from the China Medical Organ Transplant Association showed there were some 60,000 transplant operations in China between 2000 and 2005, Matas and Kilgour estimated that just 18,000 organ donations in that period came from official sources.

In their report, the lawyers stated while they had not found any hard evidence to support the charges against China, they had established a sequence of circumstantial evidence that suggested such a practice existed.

However, they were not allowed to visit China to investigate and the Chinese government claimed the story was ¡°extremely irresponsible¡±.

Newspaper reports said the China International Transplantation Network Assistance Centre in Shenyang earlier this year carried a list of prices for body parts.

The list put the price of a kidney at US$62,000, a liver at $130,000, the same for a heart, and a lung at $150,000.

Medical Publications (Ireland) Ltd. 24-26 Upper Ormond Quay, Dublin 7 Tel: (01) 817 6300 Fax: (01) 817 6335

http://www.imt.ie/displayarticle.asp?AID=12015&NS=1&CAT...SID=1

by Gerald Sat Nov 04, 2006 18:39

Prisoners executed for organs claim
Western countries are beginning to pay high-level attention to accusations that Chinese authorities are killing jailed members of the banned Falun Gong spiritual movement in order to sell their body parts for organ transplants, reports suggest.
A subcommittee of the US House of Representatives held a hearing on the accusations on 29 September while the issue was also raised at foreign minister level at the China-European Union summit meeting on 9 September in Helsinki.

The basis for the attention was a report published in July by two Canadian human rights lawyers who examined claims that the Chinese authorities were killing prisoners in order to sell their organs at home and overseas.

A Falun Gong association in North America asked the two lawyers, David Matas and David Kilgour, to help them investigate allegations that prisoners not sentenced to death by any court were being killed.

While statistics from the China Medical Organ Transplant Association showed there were some 60,000 transplant operations in China between 2000 and 2005, Matas and Kilgour estimated that just 18,000 organ donations in that period came from official sources.

In their report, the lawyers stated while they had not found any hard evidence to support the charges against China, they had established a sequence of circumstantial evidence that suggested such a practice existed.

However, they were not allowed to visit China to investigate and the Chinese government claimed the story was ¡°extremely irresponsible¡±.

Newspaper reports said the China International Transplantation Network Assistance Centre in Shenyang earlier this year carried a list of prices for body parts.

The list put the price of a kidney at US$62,000, a liver at $130,000, the same for a heart, and a lung at $150,000.

Medical Publications (Ireland) Ltd. 24-26 Upper Ormond Quay, Dublin 7 Tel: (01) 817 6300 Fax: (01) 817 6335

http://www.imt.ie/displayarticle.asp?AID=12015&NS=1&CAT...SID=1

by Gerald Fri Nov 03, 2006 01:10

AI China: Falun Gong Persececution Fact Sheet (2006)
http://www.amnesty.org.nz/web/pages/home.nsf/dd5cab6801...824ed!OpenDocument

There is a widely documented practice of the buying and selling of organs of death penalty prisoners in China. The lack of transparency surrounding such practices makes it impossible to determine whether written consent was obtained. Amnesty International also remains deeply concerned that those faced with imminent execution are not in a position to provide 'free and informed consent' to having their organs extracted.

Amnesty International notes the introduction, in China, of new regulations on organ transplants on 1 July 2006 banning the buying and selling of organs. However, questions remain about how well the regulations will be enforced, particularly in view of the high commercial value of organ sales in China. Amnesty International also notes that the regulations fail to address the basic issue of the source of organs for transplantation.

Report on alleged live organ harvesting of Falun Gong practitioners

A report published by independent researchers David Matas and David Kilgour on 6th July 2006, concludes that large numbers of Falun Gong practitioners are victims of 'systematic' organ harvesting, whilst still alive, throughout China.

Amnesty International is continuing to analyse sources of information about the Falun Gong organ harvesting allegations, including the report published by Canadians David Matas and David Kilgour.

Amnesty International is carrying out its own investigation on this issue. These investigations are being hampered by the particular difficulty of collecting reliable evidence in China, including official restrictions on access for international human rights organizations.

Amnesty International has noted the response of the Chinese authorities to the Canadian report, which states among other things that China has 'consistently abided by the relevant guiding principles of the World Health Organization endorsed in 1991, prohibiting the sale of human organs and stipulating that donors' written consent must be obtained beforehand'. Amnesty International considers this statement to be at odds with the facts in view of the widely documented practice of the buying and selling of organs of death penalty prisoners in China.

by US Congressional Research Find The Kilgour Report UNRELIABLE Tue Oct 31, 2006 01:21

The name of the brief is 'The Collateral of Suppression', written for Senator Dianne Feinstein, member of US Congressional Executive Committee on China. The Congressional researchers quoted are Emma Ashburn and Thomas Lum, where they questioned the authenticity of phone recordings made by FLG disciples, and credibility of the Kilgour report:

Emma Ashburn - Senior Research Associate
http://www.cecc.gov/pages/general/staffBios.php

Thomas Lum - Specialist in Asian Affairs, Congressional Research Service
http://www.stanleyfdn.org/reports/SPC05SEApb.pdf

Allow me to cite another relevant portion:

'Specialist in Asian Affairs at the Congressional Research Service, Thomas Lum, noted that the evidence could have easily been distorted. The individuals calling the hospitals were all affiliated with FLG, and Lum said that it is unlikely for doctors and officials working for the state to casually divulge such sensitive and damaging information so easily.

Moreover, Lum’s efforts to contact both the Chinese journalist and doctor’s wife have been fruitless, as FLG members direct all communications toward these individuals and they often do not respond. Harry Wu, a longtime political activist known for his hardline anti-PRC views, announced on August 9, 2006 that he would challenge the allegations made by FLG about targeted organ harvesting, especially the claim about the Sujiatun concentration camp.

About the report, the South China Morning Post reports, “Mr. Wu, who has spent 15 years gathering evidence on the harvesting of organs from executed Chinese prisoners, said the information was based on the testimony of two witnesses, neither of whom had first-hand information. He believed the reports were fabricated.” Wu had tried to follow up with the witnesses just as Lum had—to the same futility. In the face of these criticisms, including from even Wu, who formerly held friendly relations with FLG, all things considered the allegations FLG has made about a targeted campaign of state-sponsored genocide are most likely untrue.'

by Mary Tue Oct 10, 2006 16:21

My truth is that this was only one of a few autopsies. I don't want people to think that the Chinese government cares enough about justice for Falun Gong practitioners that they perform autopsies to determine the cause of each death, because in fact the opposite is true. It's open season on practitioners in China, and everybody there knows it.

I think we in the west can be "precise with our accusation," as you say. There is no doubt that a brutal, government-sanctioned persecution is being carried out against Falun Gong in China, and as far as I and some of my Chinese friends are concerned, Kilgour's report is credible enough to convince us that their organs are being stolen and sold.

Also, the Chinese government hasn't said anything that would help show that these allegations are untrue. The following is an excerpt from an NRO article:

"But it is the cumulative effect of the evidence that persuades. For example, the authors compare the numbers of total organ transplants in China in the six years before the crackdown on Falun Gong began with the numbers reported in the six years since the sect was outlawed. The figures startle. Between 1994 and 1999, there were about 18,500 organ transplants in China. Since the government initiated its Falun Gong pogrom — between 2000-2005 — there have been about 60,000 transplants, which represents an increase of 41,500 from the previous six year period. “Where do the organs come from for the [additional] 41,500 transplants?” the authors ask pointedly. “The allegation of organ harvesting from Falun Gong practitioners provides an answer.”

Matas and Kilgour acknowledge that this dramatic increase “does not establish that the Falun Gong allegations are true. “But,” they argue, “the converse, a full explanation of the source of all organ transplants, would disprove the allegation.” Indeed, it would be easy for the Chinese government to put this matter to rest simply by identifying the organ sources for these extra 41,500 transplants. It has not done so. (The government’s response to the report can be found here, and Matas and Kilgour’s rebuttal here.)"

http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=MDkzOTNiMDczYzRmZT...hlMWI

by bobby fletcher Tue Oct 10, 2006 01:23

I'm sorry the citation for (6) was cut off:

http://clearwisdom.net/emh/articles/2000/11/16/6164.html

As you can see according to FLG's own publication, Wang Bin's death while under police custidy was investigated, and the jail official inplicated was arrested. This in conjunction with pathologist review proves it.

Where's your Truth?

by Mary Fri Oct 06, 2006 05:49

Bobby, you're mistaken in thinking that the Chinese government does autopsies on Falun Gong practitioners to determine the cause of death. They couldn't care less about practitioners -- it's well known in China that the guards in the jails and the police have been told they don't have to answer for the death of a Falun Gong practitioner. The facts are that, not counting those who were tortured to death in the labour camps, many thousands of practitioners have disappeared since the persecution started seven years ago. Where are they?

by bobby fletcher Wed Oct 04, 2006 22:08

Please, Pat, the BBC report on the issue of consent by the condemned made no mention of Falun Gong's allegation of targeted genocide, live organ harvesting.

While China's human rights records should be examined, I would like to urge you to look into all the facts of the case regarding the live organ harvesting and targeted genocide allegation made by the religious sect Falun Gong, and promoted by Mr. Kilgour.

I have been following this story since March. I researched this matter after being given a flyer in Chinatown - and I have found many problems with this allegation.

In my opinion Falun Gong's actions not only discredited their own cause, they also detracted from honest examination of China's problems. Falun Gong's indictment muddles the rational discussion of issues such as China's legal reform, and Chinese society's moral, ethical standards on dignity and treatment of the condemned.

It is in this spirit I would like to bring to your attention some contrarian facts surrounding Falun Gong's recent media activity:

- US State Department investigated and found Falun Gong's Sujiatun/Auschwitz allegation not credible. (1)

- A Congressional brief on China and Falun Gong questioned the and veracity of Falun Gong's claim of genocide, and credibility of the Kilgour report, including questionable evidence and the fact Mr. Kilgour's investigation was at the behest of a Falun Gong group in Washington DC that is evidently political. (2)

- Long time Chinese dissident and ant-CCP activist, Mr. Harry Wu, investigated the allegation and found Falun Gong's witness unreliable. (3)

- The hospital Falun Gong accused is partly owned by a Malaysian health care company, Country Height Healthcare, and is subject to oversight beyond Chinese authority. Malay officials have documented prior year visit, and the facility has been open to public for years. (4)

- The Kilgour report admitted gory photo used by Falun Gong for shock value, are not evidence of torture or vivisection.

Specifically in the Kilgour report, Appendix 12 Case 1 - photo of Mr. Wang Bin. Pathologist review contradicted Falun Gong's claim. (5) Even according to Falun Gong's own evidence, an autopsy was performed as part of Mr. Wang's murder investigation held by local authority. (6)

Another photo that is widely mis-used by Falun Gong is of Mr. Liu Yufeng, it too does not prove torture or vivisection. In reality these autopsy photos prove the opposite is true. The Chinese government was not complacent and investigated death of citizens while under police custody.

In conclusion, while China's human rights record should be examined, writing allegory of "Schindler's List" is not the way. If we in the west can not be precise with our accusation, only resort of nefarious political indictment - why should anyone take what we say seriously?

References:
1)
http://usinfo.state.gov/xarchives/display.html?p=washfi....html

2) "The Collateral of Suppression", a report critical of China written for Senator Dianne Feinstein, member of Congressional Executive Committee on China (CECC), where congressional researchers Emma Ashburn and Thomas Lum were quoted.

3) http://www.zonaeuropa.com/20060806_1.htm
http://www.cicus.org/news/newsdetail.php?id=6492

4)
http://crc.gov.my/clinicalTrial/documents/Proposal/TCM_...s.pdf (page 3)

5) Review by Dr. Friedlander, Chairman of Pathology Dept. at Kansas City University of Medicine.

Specifically, the Kilgour Report Appendix 12, Case 1 involving Mr. Wang Bin, where the photo showed 'Y' incisions in the neck and baseball stitch suture, which are typical of autopsy. The fact organ removal by medical examiner during autopsy is routine, is omitted.

by pat c Thu Sep 28, 2006 12:11

New evidence of organs being taken from death row prisoners in China and sold for transplant. Full article at link.

pat c

Organ sales 'thriving' in China

Chinese officials say the prisoners volunteer to donate their organs
The sale of organs taken from executed prisoners appears to be thriving in China, an undercover investigation by the BBC has found. Organs from death row inmates are sold to foreigners who need transplants.

One hospital said it could provide a liver at a cost of £50,000 ($94,400), with the chief surgeon confirming an executed prisoner could be the donor.

China's health ministry did not deny the practice, but said it was reviewing the system and regulations.

by Gerald Thu Sep 14, 2006 12:06

Once again your knowledge of Falun Gong (ie elimination of Karma and generation of De (Virtue)) and its practitioners surprises me but I agree completely and unreservedly apologise if any of the comments I made hurt you.

The spy allegation that was brought up was because some people participating in the debate thought your arguements where one sided and fuelled confusion rather than added any clarity to the debate but that is not an excuse for making unfounded allegations against a person. Also many of your coments where probably fair it was just that Falun Gong practitioner worry alot about their family members and friends that have gone missing in China and sometimes get very fustrated when others seem they couldnt careless what is happening.

Largely I think your comments have been helpful (possibly contradicting what I said before) because please remember the root of this story is that a guy from a hospital in China approached a news paper and he said that these things were happening. Then a second person came foward and then independent research in to the case was carried out. Falun Gong was as much in the dark as everyone else as to if it was happening or not, so we started gathering evidence on our own.

It has not be been proved conclusively one way or the other that is it happening but I personally at the moment think that it is based on the current evidence avilable at the moment and more is being uncovered all the time.

the point I am making is that debate on such claims (Organ Harvesting) is helpful as it will bring in a range of ideas and expertise that will hopefully help the truth emerge and you have contributed to this debate so thank you.

by bobby fletcher Thu Sep 14, 2006 00:27

You mean the things Falun Gong disciples are doing? Like the spy charge against me? If there's proof I'm on the take from CCP let's see it. I know I'm not a spy and I get no money for this - so much for your Truth.

Every time a Falun Gong disciple makes such personal attack against me, without proof, for posting publically verifiable facts found on Google, their De drains from their body and they are filled with evil Karma - so much for your Benevolence.

This is the price of false practitioning and slippery slope of worldly attachment to political sabotage - so much for your Forebearance.

Remember, it is FLG disciples who believe this, not us regular people.

by Gerald Wed Sep 13, 2006 10:18

Reaching Truth Compassion and Tolerance is reaching spiritual perfection it is very difficult to reach and invloves cultivating ones self and looking at ones actions and seeing where they fall short of Truth Compassion Tolerance on a daily basis over a long period of time. The more short comings are pointed out the more the person can improve and get closer to Truth, Compassion and Tolerance, so thanks for pointing out the things you did Bobby.

by bobby fletcher Wed Sep 13, 2006 08:38

Gerald, you said:

"What we have been asking for is an investigation in to organ harvesting"

- no, that is not what you are saying. Look at the title of your original post.

"None of what you said proves it isnt taking place"

- Have you proven it is taking place? All you have is stuff from FLG's propaganda department Epoch Times that receives financial support from FLG leadership. See the money trail cited previousely.

While two US government investigations, anti-CCP Chinese dissident's independent investigation, UNHRC taking no action to date, the accused camp site is a joint venture hospital subject to oversight by foreign investors. Even Falun Gong's own list of victims does not contain any of these supposedly practioners subjected to vivisection in Sujiatun. Go see the list at ClearWisdom for yourself.

"people like yourself jumped up and said that the Falun Gong practitioners were criminals and the CCP did nothing wrong"

- Where did I ever say FLGer are criminal and CCP did nothing wrong? If you can not back up what you accused me of I must insists your ad-homenin attack is without Truth, Compassion, Forebearance.

"Are you a hundred percent sure they are not harvesting the organs of Falun Gong Practitioners?"

- You obviousely are not a hundred percent sure. Where's your Truth then? Wouldn't you feel ashamed if this "Auschwitz/Never Again" accusation isn't true?

I'll say it again, I do not agree with the crackdown; the oppression of Falun Gong alone is true and horrid enough - why exaggerate, fabricate, lie?

All the sympathy people have for you is now gone.

by Makina Fri Sep 08, 2006 20:53

So far, only Bobby and Harry confirm that this isn't happening. Lum is so pro-commie and going along with them. But all of them are stuck on the SJT Hospital and 99% of Kilgour-Matas report is focusing on all of China--not just one hospital that has been washed clean of evidence.

The K-M report's amounts to enough evidence to call this mess a genocide:

http://investigation.go.saveinter.net

We have concluded that the government of China and its agencies in numerous parts of the Country, in particular hospitals but also detention centers and 'people's courts', since 1999 have put to death a large but unknown number of Falun Gong prisoners of conscience. Their vital organs, including hearts, kidneys, livers and corneas, were virtually simultaneously seized involuntarily for sale at high prices, sometimes to foreigners, who normally face long waits for voluntary donations of such organs in their home countries.

It appears to us that many human beings belonging to a peaceful voluntary organization made illegal seven years ago by President Jiang because he thought it might threaten the dominance of the Communist Party of China have been in effect executed by medical practitioners for their organs."

Our conclusion comes not from any one single item of evidence, but rather the piecing together of all the evidence we have considered. Each portion of the evidence we have considered is, in itself, verifiable and, in most cases, incontestable. Put together, they paint a damning whole picture. It is their combination that has convinced us.

Harry's report's only use is to discredit this very credible report. David Matas' reputation as an international human rights lawyer is impeccable. For Bobby to speculate otherwise is ludicrous to the extreme.

by thrash Fri Sep 08, 2006 12:30

I have heard whispers that they are eating Falun Gong practitioners alive

this is just a roumer, there is no proof and as such its just like this article really and should be treated in the same manner as this article should be treated

my trash can is full again....

by Gerald Fri Sep 08, 2006 11:42

Bobby whats you answer to the points below?

What we have been asking for is an investigation in to organ harvesting because there is a real fear that it is taking place. None of what you said proves it isnt taking place. Due to the scale of the issue involved it could be more helpful (if you are geniunely concerned about China) to push for more investigation rather than trying to prove conclusive that it is not happening based on the information out there at the moment. If it is proved to be happening in the future I do believe you will feel ashamed that you so vigorously tried to prove it wasnt taking place and tried so hard to discredit current investigations.

When we were trying to tell people Falun Gong practitioners were being tortured to give up their beliefs many people like yourself jumped up and said that the Falun Gong practitioners were criminals and the CCP did nothing wrong in imprisoning then and that of course it was Falun Gong lies that they were tortured. The UN now accepts Falun Gong is being persecuted and that practitioners are being tortured to renounce their beliefs.

Are you a hundred percent sure they are not harvesting the organs of Falun Gong Practitioners?

__________________________________

Put the pieces of the puzzel together:
1. The UN acknowegles that the persecution is taking place
2. Most people will accept that Falun Gong is public enemy no. 1 in China
3. It has been documented by human rights groups that at least 1000's of Falun Gong practitioners have gone missing.
4. The Chinese government admitted a few years ago that it takes the organs of prisoners on death row without their consent.
5. The number of documented transplants in China has soared since the perscution began where as the source of these organs can not be accounted for.

Altough these points dont prove that organ harvesting is taking place it should at least set alarm bells ringing and get more people investigating to discover the truth for themselves.

Everywhere Falun gong practitioners are illegally detained should be investigated.

by bobby fletcher Fri Sep 08, 2006 07:59

Re Mistaken impression (Sept. 5):

David Matas, an immigration lawyer who co-authored a report on Falun Gong's live organ harvesting allegation, at the behest of Falun Gong, attempted to defend his work by citing a generalization his report did not substantiate.

In light of the mounting contrarian evidence on Falun Gong's Sujiatun allegation, Mr. Matas brings up a generalized allegation but ignored the fact Sujiatun was the example that substantiated the generalized allegation. If Falun Gong's evidence cannot prove one concentration camp actually existed, how can it be seen as proof of 35 more?

Also, Mr. Matas tries to discredit Mr. Wu's report by stating that Wu didn't interview the witnesses. This contradicts his own assertion that the witnesses were not key in his investigation. In fact Mr. Wu's report also did not rely on these witness that Falun Gong kept away from him and US Congressional researcher, but on-the-ground investigators who canvassed Sujiatun township for weeks, including the alleged camp site that turned out to be a Malaysian joint venture stroke clinic that's been open to the public for years.

This is not the only example where Kilgour/Matas demonstrated their lack of objectivity. Misrepresentations elsewhere in the Kilgour/Matas report showed that they have not sufficiently scrutinized Falun Gong's evidence.

Specifically in the Kilgour/Matas report Appendix 12 Case 1, involving death of Mr. Wang Bin. Mr. Kilgour, a long time prosecutor, mistakenly concluded an autopsy photo is proof of organ harvesting, while ignoring the facts presented by the autopsy photo, such as the 'Y' incisions in the neck region (to reveal the hyoid bone for signs of strangulation; where no organ can be harvested), the baseball stitch sutures that are typical of autopsy, and the fact removal of some organs by medical examiner during autopsy is routine.

In reality the autopsy photo proves the opposite is true; the Chinese authority showed no complacency and investigated death of citizens while under custodial detention.

In addition, a key evidence of Kilgour/Matas report, the recorded hospital phone calls, have been questioned. US Congressional researcher Thomas Lum, who investigated this allegation found the recording suspect.

Of the 30 phone calls all of them mentioned organ from Falun Gong disciples, something that's not been proven - yet not one conversation mentioned the well known and proven fact of organ from executed prisoners. If these information are state secrets, they would not be so easily divulged, and mentioned so disparagingly.

Mr. Lum of US Congressional Research Service concluded "The evidence [Kilgour/Matas] did collect, namely the phone calls and testimonies, were dubious in their objectivity."

While China's human rights record should be examined, writing allegory of "Schindler's List is not the way. The nefarious political indictment promoted in anticipation of Chinese leader's April Stateside visit (now spun into boycott of 2008 Olympics) not only discredited Falun Gong's own cause, it also detracted from serious dialogue of China's problems.

by Makina Wed Sep 06, 2006 22:10

I disagree with Bobby's argument discrediting the veracity of the Kilgour-Matas report confirming organ harvesting to be really happening in China. Bobby is talking about apples while Kilgour-Matas are talking about oranges.

David Matas, international human rights lawyer and co-author of the report http://investigation.go.saveinter.net explains below the foundation for their investigation.

Globe and Mail: Mistaken impression
By DAVID MATAS

Tuesday, September 5, 2006, Page A14
Winnipeg -- Re Chinese Dissident Disputes Organ-Harvest Allegations (Aug. 30): Harry Wu, a Chinese human-rights activist and former victim of Chinese oppression, dismissed testimony of a claimed human-rights violation in Sujiatun, China, as a fabrication without ever interviewing the person providing the testimony, and in advance of the bulk of the investigation Mr. Wu eventually completed.

David Kilgour and I wrote a report to determine whether organ harvesting of Falun Gong practitioners was occurring throughout China and came to the conclusion that it was. Mr. Kilgour, unlike Mr. Wu, did interview the witness and did decide she was credible. In writing our report, we did not rely on her testimony because it had so much detail that could not, given the repression of information of human-rights violations in China, be independently confirmed.

Our focus was all of China and not, like both the witness and Mr. Wu, just Sujiatun. So, in the end, the person who made the claim was not a key witness for our report. The article gives a mistaken impression that she was.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/Page/document/v4...=true

And this further explains the Chinese regime's reaction to the report.

This is part of Kilgour-Matas response to the Chinese regime about the organ harvesting concerns they had--

17. The second China response is primarily an elaboration on the "evil cult" attack on Falun Gong. The second response has eight paragraphs. Only three deal with organ harvesting. One talks about Canadian-Chinese relations. Four paragraphs, the bulk of the response, are a venomous attack on Falun Gong replete with false, slanderous allegations.

It is this sort of slander which, in China, depersonalizes and dehumanizes the Falun Gong and makes possible the violation of their basic human rights. Indeed, the fact that the Government of China would make a hate filled attack on Falun Gong the focus of their response to our report reinforces the analysis of the report.
The propaganda against the Falun Gong in these two responses is a form of incitement to hatred, unacceptable in Canada. It is an abuse of their diplomatic presence in Canada for China to engage in this form of incitement.

Read the full report:

http://www.theepochtimes.com/news/6-8-10/44796.html

Besides Kilgour Matas’s investigation report is backed up by Dr. Allison’s report http://www.theepochtimes.com/news/6-8-7/44668.html , including Edward McMillan-Scott’s report http://clearharmony.net/articles/200606/33776.html confirming heaps of evidence that amounts to genocide. Australia is probing into the crimes http://www.theepochtimes.com/news/6-8-23/45203.html Rudd said.

I think that Harry Wu and Bobby should focus their energy on saving the Chinese people from tyranny and butchery rather than trying to cover up a genocide. It doesn't make any sense at all that they would go out of their way to disqualify the investigation of men of stature, such as Kilgour, Matas, and the VP of EU, Mr. McMillan-Scott.

The article below sure helps put everything into context.

Making sense of a new form of evil
http://www.theepochtimes.com/news/6-8-17/45032.html

by bobby fletcher Wed Sep 06, 2006 08:15

Here's that "he's a spy" charge, but nobody shows a shred of proof. Remember it is you who have to answer to Truth Benevolence Forebearance. And you don't have to answer to me, but yourselves.

Where's your Truth?

Just because the pubic information I Googled disagree with you? US government investigation, congressional research, long time Chinese dissidents - none are CCP sourced.

Looks like you are going after the messenger because you have no answer for the facts presented.

by Gerald Tue Sep 05, 2006 11:37

When the persecution of Falun Gong started in July 1999 the Chinese government poured propaganda out of china using every method imaginable. The world looked on and alot of people believed what the communists said.

Over 7 years later even the UN acknowleges persecution is taking place. As well as many governments and people world wide. During this time alot of people died and were tortured to give up their beliefs. What did it take for the Irish government to believe it was happening, they rescued two students, one from Dun Laoghaire and one from Trinity. The scars on their body and the obvious mental scars were telling evidence. Coupled with the fact that neither were charged with anything and were detained in the forced labour camp system where one can be detained with out trail for three years.

Put this in the present context of the claims of organ harvesting. The UN says they are investigating, so does amnesty. Independent reports by respected laywers and MP's point to the fact that it is happening. I agree that Bobby makes a good case to confuse people, on this list he has pushed very hard the places where the CCP sees loop holes. How could Falun Gong practitioners outside China have all the proof and evidence. Was it before Germany fell or after that the world new the extent of the atrocities that had been carried out on the jews.

If you want to understand the logice of why people like Bobby Fletcher do what they do read the nine commentaries on the communist party, the CCP has been playing these tricks to stay in power since 1949. How do you think they survived the cultural revolution, the great leap foward, the 1989 student massacre etc.

In China I am sure you know, that the line pushed by the government is that the 1989 student massacre never happened. That the cultural revolution had good points and bad points and that the great leap foward was a natural disaster.

At best Bobby Flechters comments make it difficult for people to believe that organ harvesting is taking place but they do not prove that it is not.

Put the pieces of the puzzel together:
1. The UN acknowegles that the persecution is taking place
2. Most people will accept that Falun Gong is public enemy no. 1 in China
3. It has been documented by human rights groups that at least 1000's of Falun Gong practitioners have gone missing.
4. The Chinese government admitted a few years ago that it takes the organs of prisoners on death row without their consent.
5. The number of documented transplants in China has soared since the perscution began where as the source of these organs can not be accounted for.

Altough these points dont prove that organ harvesting is taking place it should at least set alarm bells ringing and get more people investigating to discover the truth for themselves.

by Makina Tue Sep 05, 2006 02:55

GB,

Since when do the dictators of China bother with telling anyone the truth about anything? They want the free world to believe that they are a harmonious society and that they obey the laws of heaven the earth. Nobody buys that anymore.

Meanwhile the reality is pretty sad--they oppress religious people, lawyers, journalists and mow down the peasants on a whimp. They put up a front of being capitalists when it comes to economics only. The dictators will not change their evil ways of killing, torturing and butchering their people in the backroom and even in public. People are quitting the Party and this has them very mad.

Bobby's argument is quite short of convincing. For example, our friend Harry Wu who went to Congress days before his team even investigated the grounds--simply to deny that any other evidence presented to date was false. How's that for a bunch of lies?

http://www.faluninfo.net/displayAnArticle.asp?ID=9452

" In fact, Mr. Wu already seemed intent on refuting the allegations before he fully understood the situation. His March 21, 2006 letter to members of Congress stated that news of a concentration camp in Sujiatun was fabricated, and that his position was based on “first hand investigations conducted.” Yet, in a later statement he says his “team” did not investigate the hospital in Sujiatun until March 27. The witnesses saw Mr. Wu's disposition as hostile and refused to meet with him under such circumstances."

The dictators and their supporters worry about denying the organ harvesting targeting Falun Gong and are on a big campaign to discredit this truth, same as Bobby.

Their hatred for Falun Gong is so transparent that it is sickening. They should care for the rights of the Chinese people instead of killing them like flies.

by Gong Bonger Tue Sep 05, 2006 02:06

it's a sign that this paper is printing true reports about China otherwise why would they be bother going on all the blogs to discredit it

Eh... because it's a lie and if people believe a lie that does just as much damage as if it were true?
Oh, and about the "liberation from the commies" bit: the CCP are capitalists through and through and far from the retreat from Maoism ushering in liberation it's enslaving millions in the tyranny of unchecked exploitative capitalism. Bobby Fletcher has made a very convincing argument that the Falun Gong are telling porkies and demonstrated that there's very little, if any, proof of the organ harvesting claims.

by Makina Tue Sep 05, 2006 01:00

The Epoch Times has less than 10 pages, I think , and is printed in 13 languages or so, and on five continents. It is the largest free chinese paper in the world right now. Already it's a champion in human rights. It's amazing to see how a little paper can be so annoying to the commies. They just love to hate it.

I think this is a good sign -- it's a sign that this paper is printing true reports about China otherwise why would they be bother going on all the blogs to discredit it and there is more...

To top it all off, this little paper won itself a Journalism Award in the US for the putting out the Nine Commentaries
http://www.theepochtimes.com/news/5-8-19/31392.html

This series of commentaries has prompted over 13 million people to quit the evil Party...it's just fabulous the way the Chinese people are going peacefully about liberating themselves from the tyranny of the vile CCP. http://ninecommentaries.com

Hat off to the brave men and women of China for siding with the laws of heaven and earth.

The regime's thugs have attacked this respectful paper more than once and that's telling. Reporters without borders have recorded those assaults http://www.rsf.org/article.php3?id_article=16642 where offices have been smashed, staff beaten severely. Journalists have been jailed. http://www.theepochtimes.com/211,110,,1.html

China is trying very hard to put a lid on freedom of the press outside its own borders. It appears as if Epoch Times is top on their hit list.

What are they hiding from the West? Death camps where they harvest the organs of the Falun Gong perhaps? And what else...the way they treat human rights lawyers. http://www.theepochtimes.com/211,107,,1.html

If China wants to keep the Olympics, they better start to shape up by respecting the rights of 2/3 (900 million) of the populace made up of peasants that they like to bully and mow down occasionally including the 70 million Falun Gong practitioners that they love to bucher for money on a daily basis. http://www.faluninfo.net

How much more diabolical does the CCP have to get before they lose their Olympic reward? This is certainly what they are testing these days.

by bobby fletcher Sat Sep 02, 2006 01:55

Gee, FLG disciple posting in the shadow, how nice of you to forsaken your Truth Benevolence Forebearance, just because my publically verifaible informaiton found on Google disagree with you?

Where's your Truth?

According to US law, non-profits in our country must make public financial disclosure. GuideStar is a service provider that makes these information available to the general public for compliance. This information is legally available.

What's unethical is FLG disciples going around citing their own propaganda without telling the world the truth about Epoch Times' dirct financial connection with Falun Gong organizations.

The spy charge against me is just as baseless as the spy/butcher charges against long time Chinese dissident Harry Wu, when he came forward and discredited FLG's claim.

You people are again making accusation without a shred of proof. So much for your "Truth". Is this "Benevolence"? Are your worldly attachments to political sabotage and ad-homenin attacks "Forebearance"?

It is you who have to answer to these, not us regular people.

by Why post Falun Dafa accounts? Fri Sep 01, 2006 18:42

Bobby why did you post the accounts of the Falun Dafa association? You are implying that because they have spent money printing newspapers that those newspapers are the Epoch Times. I know that they print 'Falun Gong today' newspapers in the tens of thousands to tell people what is happening in China, even in Dublin these can be picked up on O'Connell street. Also it is important to note that as far as I know individuals do this out of their own pockets to help their fellow practitioners in China.

regarding computers they admin some websites to tell people of the human rights abuses, such as www.faluninfo.net, www.clearwisdom.net there are another dozen or so linked from these websites.

Bobby please explain how you linked these accounts to Epoch Times, its strange that you would have all their accounts on hand. It seems you always have a very informed opinion on Falun Gong as if you are spying on these people.

by boby fletcher Thu Aug 31, 2006 21:29

Makina, just because you spat venom and casted false witness - doesn't mean others are.

I am not speculating; the fact FLG pays for it's propaganda department Epoch Times can be substantiated.

The direct financial connection between Falun Gong organizations and Epoch Times is not a secret. We are not talking individuals contributing, but organized flow of large sum of direct support - from leadership of FLG organizations to Epoch Times.

Here's the money trail found in non-profit declarations from US non-profit service company GuideStar (Form 990, Page 2, Part III c):

Southern USA Falun Dafa Association. $10,350 were given to Epoch Times in 2002, $22,700 in 2003, $14,750 in 2004:

http://www.guidestar.org/FinDocuments/2002/760/692/2002...9.pdf
http://www.guidestar.org/FinDocuments/2004/760/692/2003...9.pdf
http://www.guidestar.org/FinDocuments/2004/760/692/2004...9.pdf

Falun Dafa Association of New England. $57,609 were spent on computer and print media, $97,755 in 2003, $116,823 in 2004:

http://www.guidestar.org/FinDocuments/2002/043/576/2002...9.pdf
http://www.guidestar.org/FinDocuments/2003/043/576/2003...Z.pdf
http://www.guidestar.org/FinDocuments/2004/043/576/2004...9.pdf

(These are but two examples of the hundreds of FLG non-profits in US.)

The bottom line is your outrage may be justfied, but fabrication, sensational twist of facts, nefarious political indictment, muddles the already complex issue of moral and ethical standards in treatment of death row inmates, notions of dignity - especially crossing the cultural divide.

Such appearant demonization detracts from your message as well as those who truely care about China; FLG is their own worst enemy.

by Makina Tue Aug 29, 2006 21:35

Sorry I don't think you should take a speculation personally, unless it is true. And it was a rhetorical question anyhow which most of the readers know the answer to.

The Epoch Times http://www.theepochtimes.com/index12.html is a paper that is very well respected by the free world but so hated by the Communists for publishing reports about China. It is gutsy and not shy about reporting the latest rights crisis and persecutions by the Party. It is a beautiful expression of free speech. Where else would we read - as it happens - about the crackdown on human rights lawyers http://www.theepochtimes.com/211,107,,1.html and the seven year long persecution of Falun Gong and how they are butchered for their organs http://www.theepochtimes.com/211,111,,1.html .

And I don’t blame NGOs for donating to such a paper because it is worth it to champion freedom of press. I can see how it is a most important paper for those who are oppressed by Communist China. This kind of free speech helps minimize persecutions by exposing them in broad daylight. For this I command any NGOs who wish to express their generosity towards protecting human rights.

But I can understand why this paper called ‘dajiyuan’ in Chinese, available on 5 continents in 13 languages, would keep the Beijing dictators awake at night. In fact, this is a manifestation that human rights groups are pushing ahead and hopefully this world is heading for more peace and less persecutions by dictators.

by Thanks for the personal attack, show Falun Gong's true color Tue Aug 29, 2006 10:06

It seems you are going after the messenger when you have no answer for the facts presented.

Keep citing Epoch Times, after all it is Falun Gong's paid for propaganda department.

by Makina Fri Aug 25, 2006 03:45

Bob,

You don't give up do you? Why this strong penchant to protect the butchers from Beijing I wonder?

Do you understand the serious allegations put forth in the Kilgour-Matas report on organ harvesting targeting Falun Gong practitioners across China. ( http://investigation.go.saveinter.net ) The Chinese embassy has formulated a set of contradictions similar to yours which I completely disagree with--most of it is unfounded and a direct attack on the authors of the report and the Falun Gong.

http://www.theepochtimes.com/news/6-8-10/44796.html

The free world is still waiting for China to give an explanation for the 41,500 organ transplants unaccounted for (in the report). That is telling. Have the many Falun Gong practitioners who have disappeared in China become unwilling organ donors? The answer is yes.

I find it unfortunate that Mr. Harry Wu's investigation in the North of China proved to be fruitless and that in turn his report is being used to discredit the Kilgour-Matas findings. Maybe his team should have gone there before March 9 when the story first broke in the Epoch Times. News reports confirm that after March 9th, the hospital site was cleaned up swiftly to hide all evidence and only later on the Communist Party officials invited the free world to come and investigate. But oddly enough the regime has refused to grant visas to anyone who asked to investigate further. Meanwhile the US State Dept. was taken through a show tour--the regime being with them every step of the way but they have kept the file opened and are still interested in the case.

http://www.faluninfo.net/displayAnArticle.asp?ID=9452

It's worth mentioning that the Kilgour-Matas investigation team examined 18 pieces of evidence to draw their conclusions and that the hospital visited by the US State Dept. and Mr. Wu only accounts for a small portion of the report. Many hospitals were investigated, not just that one--so 99% of the report is not about that hospital. Moreover hospital staff openly admitted to the organ source being from the Falun Gong in 15 instances and these digital recordings have been well validated. Matas calls this practice a new from of evil on the planet. BTW the phone bills are available.

China's bloody harvest
http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/news/issuesideas/sto...36592

The K-M report has been well received in their travels to Brusels, Berlin, London, Washington DC with the Australian government requesting the Chinese embassy for an independent investigation to be allowed. Kilgour has met with rights organizations which are already paying close attention to this issue as is the UN.

It is high time that Communist China be made accountable for their crimes against humanity and for the free world to reassess their take on China. As I recall China was given the 2008 Olympics on the premise that their human rights record would improve. In my eyes the well documented persecution of Falun Gong is enough to disqualify them instantly along with the reports of large scale organ harvesting which would make their record stoop to a new low.

It’s time to quit the Party Bob! http://ninecommentaries.com

by bobby fletcher Tue Aug 15, 2006 09:52

- Congressional Executive Committee on China brief commented on the reliability of the Kilgour report, and Falun Gong's accusation:

http://exilyn.blogspot.com/2006/08/latest-and-last-repo....html

"Emma Ashburn, a research associate at the Congressional-Executive Committee on China (CECC), said that the Matas-Kilgour report really “offered nothing new” in terms of evidence on the matter of organ harvesting. The evidence they did collect, namely the phone calls and testimonies, were dubious in their objectivity.

Specialist in Asian Affairs at the Congressional Research Service, Thomas Lum, noted that the evidence could have easily been distorted. The individuals calling the hospitals were all affiliated with FLG, and Lum said that it is unlikely for doctors and officials working for the state to casually divulge such sensitive and damaging information so easily. Moreover, Lum’s efforts to contact both the Chinese journalist and doctor’s wife have been fruitless, as FLG members direct all communications toward these individuals and they often do not respond."

by bobby fletcher Thu Aug 10, 2006 10:49

A Chinese dissident's independent investigation found Falun Gong's accusation not credible:

http://www.zonaeuropa.com/20060806_1.htm

by bobby fletcher Fri Jul 28, 2006 22:27

Here it is, details about Chinese government's murder investigation of death of a Falun Gong practioner and arrest of officials implicated. Keep in mind Mr. Kilgour was once a prosecutor, I wonder how he could have missed this?

It seems Kilgour ignored some glaring fallacy In the Kilgour report itself that spoke against Falun Gong's accusation. At a minimum he failed to scrutinized these so called "evidence".

Specifically, in the report, Appendix 12, Case 1:

- It mentioned Mr. Wang's brain was removed. There is no such thing as brain transplant.

- The alleged victim, Mr. Wang, appeared in 11/2000 ClearWisdom (another Falun Gong media outlet) article but no organ harvesting was mentioned:

http://clearwisdom.net/emh/articles/2000/11/16/6164.html

The article mentioned autoply was performed as part of Mr. Wang's murder investigation, and jail official implicated in Mr. Wang's murder was arrested as result of this investigation.

- Organ removal is typical of autopsy. The elaborate incisions on the neck (where no neck organ can be harvested for transplantation) is to reveal the hyoid bone for evidence of strangulation. Removal of heart and brain is also a routine, per the "Rokitansky method".

- I have shown the photo exhibited in Appendix 12, Case 1, to Dr. Friedlander, Chairman of Pathology Dept. at Kansas City University of Medicine, and he disagrees with Falun Gong's assertion.

In fact the photo shows autopsy being performed and murder investigation held by the Chinese government proves th opposit is ture. I can only surmise Epoch Times mis-represented the photo to generate emotional responses.

Matter of fact all the gory photos Epoch Times used in their 3/2006 story are recycled from old stories. Another one is Wang Yufeng, and in 2005 original story there was no mention of any organ removed from her body.

by Gerald Fri Jul 21, 2006 03:25

Mr. O’Toole: The Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment visited China last week. I would like to discuss the outcome of his trip with him. I also wish to ask whether he raised the issue of human and civil rights in China on his trip, particularly the attitude of the Government and the Communist Party of China to the Falun Gong movement, an issue which Senator Norris and I previously raised. The movement’s members have been persecuted and thrown into concentration camps and, while it is difficult to believe it still happens in this day and age, are being used for live organ donations against their will, which has been proven beyond doubt.

Democratically-elected politicians in various parts of the world are trying to start a movement in respect of this matter. Members of the Canadian Senate and its other House have tried to start a worldwide independent investigation into the persecution of the Falun Gong movement on mainland China. Will the Minister address this House regarding his trip and discuss this issue so that we could ask him to raise with the Chinese Government, the EU, the UN and any appropriate international group the need to have the attitude of the Communist Party of China and the Chinese Government towards the Falun Gong movement discussed and investigated? If we have reached the stage at which the dollar and euro signs gained by doing business with the 1 billion people in China are more important than the way their country is treated, we are going down a slippery slope.

Mr. Norris: I am glad Senator O’Toole raised the question of human rights in China. Like America, China is an empire that denies being an empire. It invaded, annexed and colonised Tibet in 1959. Now it has brought the railway that will complete the cultural genocide. For the reason Senator O’Toole mentioned, because we have dollar signs in our eyes, nobody utters a squeak. I raised the question of the Falun Gong. There is no doubt that prisoners are kept on death row as a living organ bank. An order is placed in Japan or the US and organs are harvested while the prisoners are alive. I am glad the Canadian Senate has taken up this matter and we should do so too.

by Gerald Wed Jul 12, 2006 11:06

Fact hunter, I believe there is something wrong when you agree with the most horrible aspects of what is happening at the moment in China, ie forced organ harvesting of Falun Gong practitioners but then say 'where are the concentration camps'. Evidence points to the facts that things like this have been happening throughout the locations where Falun Gong practitioners are held. Even the practitioners who were released to western countries tell of strange examinations that in hindsight looked liked they where checking the value of their organs.

What the international community together with Falun Gong practitioners is starting to ask for is an independent investigation to all the locations where practitioners of Falun Gong are held against their will and for this to be done freely and not to be some sort of guided tour arranged by the CCP.

I strongly encourage the chinese people who are reading this post to read the Nine Commentaries on the CHinese communist party(http://ninecommentaries.com/). There is something seriously amiss when you so strongly defend this evil party and at the same time acknowlege the fact that horrors are actually happening. for Irish people who have not been indocrinated with the CCP philosphy some of what has been said on this list looks odd. It appears 'rational' people are siding with the murderer while pointing out small mistakes on the part of the murdered. WE ARE TALKING ABOUT YOUR BROTHERS AND SISTERS IN CHINA!

by fact hunter Tue Jul 11, 2006 15:22

No falon gong concentration camp has been disclosed.

Yes- there has been organ harvesting & sale
Yes- amongst those who organs were harvested were FG dissidents. (the cult not the fine gael thing)
Yes- some of these were probably inmates at prison camps

No concetration camp policy of harvesting specifically FG organs.

your last submission as evidence to support your big melodramatic fib.
http://investigation.redirectme.net/

by Gerald Tue Jul 11, 2006 14:19

http://investigation.redirectme.net/

by bobby fletcher Sun Jul 09, 2006 04:41

The report is one-sided and Kilgour’s claim of impartiality is entirely questionable:

- Kilgour can not divorce himself from the fact his investigation is sponsored by a Falun Gong group in Washington DC that is evidently POLITICAL.

As the vilification Falun Gong heaped on the Chinese government unrelated to this allegation demonstrates (such as The Nine [POLITICAL] Commentaries and “10 million quit the CCP” propaganda, in anticipation of Chinese leader’s stateside visit).

- The report failed to account for many contrarian facts that have brought question to Falun Gong’s claim, which are freely available outside China.

Not able to go to China does not absolve him of his duty to critically examine ALL evidence:

* Two US government investigation started 2nd week of March/06 independently found the allegation not credible;

* Other media investigations, including Hong Kong newspaper Takunpao with circulation in Canada also found the allegation not credible. FYI Takunpao lost their government subsidies after they reported critically on Tiananmen Square Massacre.

* Other experts have doubted Falun Gong’s claim, including Harry Wu of Laogai Research Foundation;

* Malaysian government’s prior year visit to the alleged camp, which is a joint-venture and has been open to the public for years;

* Epoch Times’ rehashing of old, unrelated stories and mis-representing autopsy photo that do not prove torture or vivisection. The fact the photo show autopsy being performed and murder investigation held by the Chinese government proves the opposite.

Clear Wisdom’s original report on Wang Bin and Liu Yufeng had no mention of organ harvesting, yet years later these stories are rehashed in Epoch Times’ 2006 organ harvesting accusation.

By ignoring these facts, Kilgour demonstrated his agenda and LACK OF impartiality.

by Majina Sat Jul 08, 2006 22:26

The report showing evidence that the Falun Gong have been butchered for their organs is out-they take the corenas, the two kidneys, then the liver, etc... A full copy of the report can be viewed at: http://investigation.redirectme.net/

Media Advisory, July 7 2006

David Kilgour and David Matas respond to the Chinese government
statement
-------------------------------------------------------
See for more coverage on this topic:
http://ahdu88.blogspot.com/2006/07/2008-beijing-olympic....html
http://ahdu88.blogspot.com/2006/07/canadian-report-conf....html
---------------------------------------------------------
The Government of China released a statement in response to our report titled *Report into Allegations of Organ Harvesting of Falun Gong Practitioners in China* dated July 6, 2006. The statement can be found at http://www.chinaembassycanada.org . We have these reactions to this statement:

1. The statement of the Government of China was released the same day as our Report. The statement of the Government of China dismisses our Report out of hand. We view this reaction is unconsidered. It means that the Government of China has engaged in no investigations to determine whether or not what the report contains is true.

2. The statement of the Government of China begins with the phrase

"In order to extricate itself from an awkward position after its lie about "Sujiatun Concentration Camp" has been laid bare, Falun Gong has shifted..."

This phrase is incorrect in a number of different ways. First, it suggests that our Report is a Falun Gong report. Yet, it is not. We are not Falun Gong practitioners. We did this report as volunteers and were not paid for this report by Falun Gong or anyone. Our report represents our own judgment. We have not acted on the instructions of Falun Gong or anyone else in coming to the conclusions we did.

3. The assertions about Sujiatun Concentration Camp to which the Chinese statement refers originated from the ex-wife of a surgeon at Sujiatun Hospital. This person is not a Falun Gong practitioner. This person has not changed or shifted her story at any time. David Kilgour interviewed her. An excerpt of the interview can be found at Appendix 13 of our report.

4. It is our own opinion, expressed in our report, that this woman was not lying. We concluded that she was credible.

5. In our report we did not rely on this witness alone to come to our conclusions. In our report, this is what we said about the testimony of this witness:

"The testimony of the wife of the surgeon allegedly complicit in Falun Gong organ harvesting seemed credible to us, partly because of its extreme detail. However, that detail also posed a problem for us, because it provided a good deal of information which it was impossible to
corroborate independently. We were reluctant to base our findings on sole source information. So, in the end, we relied on the testimony of this witness only where it was corroborative and consistent with other evidence, rather than as sole source information."

Our report is not a shift from what this witness says, but rather an expansion, with a larger focus than just Sujiatun Hospital.

6. The Chinese statement then says:

"It is obvious that their purpose is to smear China's image." We reply that we have no wish to smear China's image. Our sole concerns are respect for the truth and human rights.

7. The Chinese statement then says: "China has consistently abided by the relevant guiding principles of the World Health Organization endorsed in 1991, prohibiting the sale of human organs and stipulating that donors' written consent must be obtained beforehand and donors are entitled to refuse the donation at last minute."

This statement that China made is denied by the facts. The China International Transplantation Network Assistance Centre Website until April of this year set out a price list for transplants. The price list was removed from the website in April, but is still archived. To see the web site now, go to http://en.zoukiishoku.com . To see the archived site, go to

http://archive.edoors.com/render.php?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fe...&y=11
.

As well, many individuals can attest to paying for organ transplants in China.

8. The statement that China has consistently abided by the principle stipulating that donors' written consent must be obtained beforehand is also belied by the facts. Human Rights Watch has reported that consent is obtained from executed prisoners in only a minority of cases. The
organization writes that even in this minority of cases "the abusive circumstances of detention and incarceration in China, from the time a person is first accused of a capital offense until
the moment of his or her execution, are such as to render absurd any notion of "free and voluntary consent."

*Organ Procurement and Judicial Execution in China*, August 1994

9. The China statement goes on to say:

"China has issued a regulation on human organ transplants, explicitly banning the sale of organs and introducing a set of medical standards for organ transplants in an effort to guarantee medical safety and the health of patients. The regulation requires medical institution which is qualified for practising human organ transplant to register at provincial level health department. Unregistered medical institutions are forbidden to practice human organ transplant. If the government finds any registered institution violating the regulation, it will cancel the registration and punish the people responsible."

We acknowledge that this is so, and wrote about it in our Report. We also noted that this legislation came into force only a few days ago on July 1st. It is not an answer to our findings about what happened before that date. Moreover, in China, there is a huge gap between enacting legislation and enforcing it.

10. The Government of China then writes:

"It is very clear that Falun Gong's rumour has ulterior political motives."

None of our findings are based on rumour. Every finding we make is sourced and independently verifiable.

11. The China statement then says:

"Therefore, the so called "independent investigation report" made by a few Canadians based on rumours and false allegations is groundless and biased. We do believe that lies are always lame, and will never become the truth even if being repeated 1000 times. We hope that the Canadian people will not be deceived by the disguise of the Falun Gong, and more people will be aware of the nature of "Falun Gong" as an evil cult."

This conclusion is an attack both on us and Falun Gong. The Report has to be judged on its merits. Attacking its authors is not an appropriate response.

Secondly calling the Falun Gong an evil cult exemplifies the vilification heaped on the Falun Gong. It is this sort of slander which, in China, depersonalizes and dehumanizes the Falun Gong and makes possible the violation of their basic human rights.

Calling a group of innocent civilians an "evil cult" is a form of incitement to hatred, unacceptable in Canada. It is an abuse of their diplomatic presence in China for China to engage in this form of incitement.

For more information, please contact:
David Kilgour: (613) 747-7854 David Matas: (204) 944-1831

by Gerald Fri Jul 07, 2006 21:58

Response of David Kilgour and David Matas to the Chinese government statement
The Government of China released a statement in response to our report titled Report into Allegations of Organ Harvesting of Falun Gong Practitioners in China dated July 6, 2006. The statement can be found at . We have these reactions to this statement:

1. The statement of the Government of China was released the same day as our Report. The statement of the Government of China dismisses our Report out of hand. We view this reaction is unconsidered. It means that the Government of China has engaged in no investigations to determine whether or not what the report contains is true.

2. The statement of the Government of China begins with the phrase
"In order to extricate itself from an awkward position after its lie about "Sujiatun Concentration Camp" has been laid bare, Falun Gong has shifted..."
This phrase is incorrect in a number of different ways. First, it suggests that our Report is a Falun Gong report. Yet, it is not. We are not Falun Gong practitioners. We did this report as volunteers and were not paid for this report by Falun Gong or anyone. Our report represents our own judgment. We have not acted on the instructions of Falun Gong or anyone else in coming to the conclusions we did.

3. The assertions about Sujiatun Concentration Camp to which the Chinese statement refers originated from the ex-wife of a surgeon at Sujiatun Hospital. This person is not a Falun Gong practitioner. This person has not changed or shifted her story at any time. David Kilgour interviewed her. An excerpt of the interview can be found at Appendix 13 of our report.

4. It is our own opinion, expressed in our report, that this woman was not lying. We concluded that she was credible.

5. In our report we did not rely on this witness alone to come to our conclusions. In our report, this is what we said about the testimony of this witness:
"The testimony of the wife of the surgeon allegedly complicit in Falun Gong organ harvesting seemed credible to us, partly because of its extreme detail. However, that detail also posed a problem for us, because it provided a good deal of information which it was impossible to corroborate independently. We were reluctant to base our findings on sole source information. So, in the end, we relied on the testimony of this witness only where it was corroborative and consistent with other evidence, rather than as sole source information."
Our report is not a shift from what this witness says, but rather an expansion, with a larger focus than just Sujiatun Hospital.

6. The Chinese statement then says:
"It is obvious that their purpose is to smear China's image." We reply that we have no wish to smear China's image. Our sole concerns are respect for the truth and human rights.

7. The Chinese statement then says:
"China has consistently abided by the relevant guiding principles of the World Health Organization endorsed in 1991, prohibiting the sale of human organs and stipulating that donors' written consent must be obtained beforehand and donors are entitled to refuse the donation at last minute."

This statement that China is denied by the facts. The China International Transplantation Network Assistance Centre Website until April of this year set out a price list for transplants. The price list was removed from the website in April, but is still archived. To see the web site now, go to . To see the archived site, go to
http://archive.edoors.com/render.php?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fe...&y=11.
As well, many individuals can attest to paying for organ transplants in China.

8. The statement that China has consistently abided by the principle stipulating that donors' written consent must be obtained beforehand is also belied by the facts. Human Rights Watch has reported that consent is obtained from executed prisoners in only a minority of cases. The organization writes that even in this minority of cases
"the abusive circumstances of detention and incarceration in China, from the time a person is first accused of a capital offense until the moment of his or her execution, are such as to render absurd any notion of "free and voluntary consent."
Organ Procurement and Judicial Execution in China, August 1994

9. The China statement goes on to say:
"China has issued a regulation on human organ transplants, explicitly banning the sale of organs and introducing a set of medical standards for organ transplants in an effort to guarantee medical safety and the health of patients. The regulation requires medical institution which is qualified for practising human organ transplant to register at provincial level health department. Unregistered medical institutions are forbidden to practice human organ transplant. If the government finds any registered institution violating the regulation, it will cancel the registration and punish the people responsible."

We acknowledge that this is so, and wrote about it in our Report. We also noted that this legislation came into force only a few days ago on July 1st. It is not an answer to our findings about what happened before that date. Moreover, in China, there is a huge gap between enacting legislation and enforcing it.

10. The Government of China then writes:
"It is very clear that Falun Gong's rumour has ulterior political motives."
None of our findings are based on rumour. Every finding we make is sourced and independently verifiable.

11. The China statement then says:
"Therefore, the so called "independent investigation report" made by a few Canadians based on rumours and false allegations is groundless and biased. We do believe that lies are always lame, and will never become the truth even if being repeated 1000 times. We hope that the Canadian people will not be deceived by the disguise of the Falun Gong, and more people will be aware of the nature of "Falun Gong" as an evil cult."

This conclusion is an attack both on us and Falun Gong. The Report has to be judged on its merits. Attacking its authors is not an appropriate response.

Second calling the Falun Gong an evil cult exemplifies the vilification heaped on the Falun Gong. It is this sort of slander which, in China, depersonalizes and dehumanizes the Falun Gong and makes possible the violation of their basic human rights.

Calling a group of innocent civilians an "evil cult" is a form of incitement to hatred, unacceptable in Canada. It is an abuse of their diplomatic presence in China for China to engage in this form of incitement.

by bobby fletcher Fri Jul 07, 2006 06:18

Here're the facts on Kilgour's report:

- it is sponsored by WOIPFG, a Falun Gong group in Washington DC

- Even Kilgour said witness information is not first hand, and the report used "if" liberally

Have you seen a comedy group called "The Jerky Boys"? The crank call Chinese restaurants and get them to say "yes" to all kinds of stuff.

If I crank call a Chinese restarant and get them to say yes to Falun Gong Pao Chicken, then America is eathing Falun Gong practioners?

Kilgour's report offered no new evidence.

This is while:

- other expert have come forward and publically doubted Falun Gong's claim, such as Harry Wu of Laogai Research Foundation:

http://www.canadianchristianity.com/cgi-bin/bc.cgi?bc/b...inese

"Wu adds: "The Falun Gong practitioners say, 'We believe this is true because Chinese communism is a barbaric, evil system. They will do anything.' So the conclusion is: they did it. The evidence? Today, not enough."

- The grisley photos Epoch used to support vivisection allegation are recycled from old Clear Wisdom stories unrelated to the March 2006 allegation. Both Wang Bing and Liu Yufeng's photos were autopsy photo and do not prove live organ harvesting at all.

I recommend you take a closer look at the gory photo Falun Gong is using. I showed the photo to a pathologist and he said it's an autopsy photo, not evidence of vivisection or torture.

One of the photo shows incisions around the neck area, yet there's no neck organ to transplant. The incisions were to reveal the hyoid bone for signs of strangulation.

While I agree China's human rights issues should be examined, writing allegory of "Schindler's List" is not the way.

- The live organ harvesting allegation promoted by Epoch Times NY has been discredited by US State Dept investigation:

http://usinfo.state.gov/xarchives/display.html?p=washfi....html

- The protester at the White House, Dr. Wang Wenyi, is Epoch Times NY's lead researcher for the discredited story.

- The hospital Epoch Times NY accused is a joint venture with a company affiliated with the Malaysian government. The place is open to the publice, and Malay officials have visited in previous years:

http://crc.gov.my/clinicalTrial/documents/Proposal/TCM_...s.pdf

by Gerald Fri Jul 07, 2006 01:30

Canada-China-rights,sched-lead
Report alleges China harvests body parts from live inmates
(AFP)///

OTTAWA, July 6, 2006 (AFP) - A former Canadian cabinet member and a human rights lawyer issued a report on Thursday alleging China harvests organs from unwilling live prison inmates, mostly Falun Gong practitioners, for transplants on a large scale.
The report's authors, Canada's former Secretary of State for the Asia Pacific region David Kilgour and human rights lawyer David Matas, implicated dozens of hospitals and jails throughout China after a two-month investigation.
The pair also identified some 41,500 suspect transplants in China since 2000, saying they were unable to track the source of the organs used.
"We believe that there has been and continues today to be large scale organ seizures from unwilling Falun Gong practitioners," they wrote in their report.
"This is a form of evil that we have yet to see on this planet, a new form of evil," Matas told reporters Thursday.
China, which has denied similar allegations, refused entry to both to investigate the claims further, he said.
The US-based lobby group The Coalition to Investigate the Persecution of the Falun Gong in China (CIPFG) asked the duo to investigate claims by several of their members.
China banned the spiritual group in 1999 and has vehemently denied the allegations of organ harvesting, accusing the group of spreading rumours in a bid to undermine the country's international relations and "social stability."
Kilgour and Matas noted that much of the claims were second-hand, but that there is enough evidence to warrant a broader investigation.
"There are investigative difficulties in establishing these
allegations because ... the victim is dead, the perpetrator is not going to confess and the scene of the crime leaves no trace; it's an operating room," Matas said.
"I don't know if this is policy or corruption, but it's widespread," he added.
The two called on Chinese authorities, the United Nations and
international human rights organizations to investigate the claims
further.
They also asked world governments to consider a ban on Chinese
doctors seeking to travel abroad for transplant training and stronger organ trafficking laws worldwide to stem what Matas characterized as "crimes against humanity".
Canada's Conservative government and opposition parties have
expressed interest in the report, Kilgour noted.
Matas and Kilgour said they interviewed several Falun Gong members and the former wife of a surgeon who told her he had removed the corneas from some 2,000 anaesthetized Falun Gong prisoners in northeast China over two years prior to October 2003.
They said they listened, with the help of certified interpreters, to more than 30 veiled calls made from Canada and the United States to Chinese officials who admitted to the surgeries from March to May.
Transcripts of the telephone calls implicated some 30 hospitals and jails, including the Public Safety Bureau in Shanxi, the Eye Department at the People's Liberation Army Hospital in Shenyang, and Army Hospital 301 in Beijing.
On June 8, an official identified only as Mr. Li at Mishan city jail in Heilongjiang province said at least five male Falun gong prisoners under 40 years old were available for organ harvest.
"Do you have Falun Gong (organ) suppliers?" the caller asked.
"We used to have, yes," replied Mr. Li.
"What about now?"
"Yes," Li said.
"Can we come to select, or you provide directly to us?"
"We provide them to you," Li said, adding a price would be discussed later in person.

by bobby fletcher Tue Jun 06, 2006 22:38

Oh spare me, you already banned me from your "between heaven and earth" FLG blog, so I'm sure you are not into honest discussion.

Is it any wonder you just posted the 9 commentary thing on your own blog too?

Give me break, everything I posted came from google search:

- Both US Congress and State Dept investigations found FLG's "Auschwitz" accusation not credible;

- the hospital is a joint venture with Malayisan company, the site has been open to public for years.

They are verifiable, unlike FLG's unverifiable "Auschwitz" cry wolf.

Face it, the story was fabricated to Hu Jintao during his stateside visit. It doesn't take supernormal power to see that, eh?

by heaven and earth Tue May 30, 2006 20:05

Bobby is anti-Falun Gong, pro-CCP. He has gone at great lenght to protect CCP on all the blogs that covers this topic.

CCP propaganda is what it is " p-r-o-p-a-g-a-n-d-a". Bobby you are scared about the truth coming out, about over 10 million chinese who have quit the party after having read the 9 commentaries on the CCP explaining the brutal, bloodlust history of the most murderous regime on planet earth. Why protect corrupt inborn killers I ask you.

http://www.ninecommentaries.com

Please be careful when you slander Falun Gong...it's not right and you know it too.

The Falun Gong have never done anything to you but the CCP is killing them like flies just because they won't give up their faith and then there are people like you who don't waste a minute to slander and poison people's mind some more with ridiculous lies.

Shame on the CCP and shame on you Bobby!

by bobby fletcher Wed May 17, 2006 18:16

The hospital Epoch Times accused is a joint venture with a Malaysian company affaliated with the Malaysian government. Malay officias have visited the clinic in previous years:

http://crc.gov.my/clinicalTrial/documents/Proposal/TCM_...s.pdf

by bobby fletcher Wed May 03, 2006 23:35

http://www.ustransplant.org/annual_reports/current/105_...h.htm

- USA with 1/4 of China's population, performs over 10,000 liver transplants yearly
- 2004 data shows top 10% of wait list average 10 day wait
- 2004 data shows top 25% of wait list average 43 day wait

- Majority of median wait time, for all type of transplantation, do not exceed one year.

by bobby fletcher Fri Apr 28, 2006 18:26

If average wait is indeed 7 years, and some hospital's wait is much shorter, then we must conlude they run concentration camp and obtain organs from vivisection?

Here's a US transplant center with 2 1/2 month wait similiar to Chinese hospital:

http://www.lifepoint-sc.org/articles/theheartofthematte....html

"At MUSC, heart transplant patients on average wait about 2 1/2 months for a heart, Van Bakel said. Nationally, he said, the average wait time is about eight months."

My god, "Auschwitz" in USA!

by bobby fletcher Fri Apr 28, 2006 18:18

[There are "regular" organ donations not from execution which you ignore completely. People in China die from car wrecks, accidents, heart attacks too. They and their family too decide to leave legacy thru organ donation.

Also the condemned in China desire redemption and last act of contribution to family and society under their cultural and religious foundation.]

If you have any proof they come from Sujiatun concentration camp, let's see it. Asking question exactely proves you have no evidence.

I will not let you forget about Epoch Times NY's "Auschwitz" cry wolf you promoted here.

You should be outraged by this outlandish claim too - not only did Epoch Times NY discredited your cause, they also disrespected the Jewish people's suffering by taking the Holocaust in vain.

US government announced finding of its investigation - no evidence of concentration camp:

http://usinfo.state.gov/xarchives/display.html?p=washfi....html

"Officers and staff from our embassy in Beijing and consulate in Shenyang have visited the area and the specific site mentioned in these reports on two separate occasions," McCormack said.

"In these visits the officers were allowed to tour the entire facility and grounds and found no evidence that the site is being used for any function other than as a normal public hospital."

Such finding was reported by The Australian weeks prior:

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,1866....html

"It appears the claims by Falun Gong have been at least substantially exaggerated. Initial investigations by researchers for a US congressional committee have identified the site at Sujiatun as a hospital, where it is suspected organ harvesting occurs but on nowhere near the scale claimed"

by gerald Wed Apr 26, 2006 22:05

The CCP claims that organ’s are donated by executed prisoners.
Fact: Amnesty International reports that in 2005 there were 1720 executions in China. However, The China Organ Transplant Research Association boasts that in 2005 nearly 4,000 liver transplants and 10,000 kidney transplants were completed!

In the USA where organ donations are common practice, the average wait time for an organ transplant is about seven years due to the 5% tissue match possibility. However, the China International Transplantation Network Assistance Centre’s website boast transplants in China with a maximum 2 weeks wait at prices of $180,000 U.S. Visit: http://en.zoukiishoku.com/

Where are these unbelievable amounts of organs coming from?

by bobby fletcher Tue Apr 25, 2006 19:25

Here's the title of your original Indymedia pot:

"Concentration Camp for Falun Gong Disclosed"

What happened? The article you cited mentions nothing about "Auschwitz" or "concentration camp".

And let me remind you the US government investigated this and found it not credible.

http://usinfo.state.gov/xarchives/display.html?p=washfi....html

Not only has your cry wolf discredited your cause, you've also disrespected the Jewish people's suffering by taking the Holocaust in vain.

Shame on you.

by gerald Tue Apr 25, 2006 01:27

There was an interesting article in the gaurdian on Sunday about Falun Gong and the persecution of it. The article was written by Irish journalists in China.
http://tribune.televisual.co.uk/login.tvt?_scope=Tribun...BCAT=

You have to register but is free and takes all of 5 minutes.

This CPAN news show at the weekend was also very interesting about the Falun Gong woman who protested to Hu and appealed to Bush.
http://new.homeftp.net/~forshare/CSPAN/

by bobby fletcher Thu Apr 20, 2006 18:06

Gearld, I will not let you forget about Epoch Times NY's "Auschwitz" cry wolf you promoted here.

Now you want to back track to some sane and reasonable criticism of China and pretend you still have credibility?

You should be outraged by this outlandish claim too - not only did Epoch Times NY discredited your cause, they also disrespected the Jewish people's suffering by taking the Holocaust in vain.

You owe the Sujiatun stroke clinic an apology. All they do is try to spare stroke patients of invasive surgery with the snake venom cocktail they invented. But you guys just had to mess with them - all because Hu Jintao is visiting US? Shenyang is holding an International expo?

You are not truthful, not benevolent, and I will not tolerate it anymore:

US government announced finding of its investigation - no evidence of concentration camp:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060415/pl_afp/uschinasect...04729

"Officers and staff from our embassy in Beijing and consulate in Shenyang have visited the area and the specific site mentioned in these reports on two separate occasions," McCormack said.

"In these visits the officers were allowed to tour the entire facility and grounds and found no evidence that the site is being used for any function other than as a normal public hospital."

This finding was reported by The Australian weeks prior:

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,1866....html

"It appears the claims by Falun Gong have been at least substantially exaggerated. Initial investigations by researchers for a US congressional committee have identified the site at Sujiatun as a hospital, where it is suspected organ harvesting occurs but on nowhere near the scale claimed"

by gerald Thu Apr 20, 2006 02:23

Sky news top story today Organ Harvesting in China:
http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-13519519,00....html
The video for it is linked at the bottom. Its very good undercover reporting. One thing they have not asked: why are the number of organs harvested each year much greater than the number of people reported on death row? Is it that the hospitals in China have another source?

Below is a very good report from the world organisation to investigate the persecution of Falun Gong. Similar to the SKy news report they pretend to be looking for organs for transplants. They asked many questions sky news falied to ask and got shocking answers. The audio files for these discussions are available for listening on the Epoch Times webpage and the report is attached. If you dont believe ring the hospitals mentioned and ask for the people mentioned in the report and see do they sound the same. Due to sky and Epoch Times report they may not be so willing to talk now. The report is below. Chilling reading.

http://www.zhuichaguoji.org/en/index2.php?option=conten...age=0

by bobby fletcher Wed Apr 19, 2006 16:38

What ever happened to Epoch Times NY's "Aushchwitz" bit? This article has nothing about concentration camp or Falun Gong.

The BTS issue is about organ donation consent from the condemned.

There're cultural and buddist religious foundation we in the West don't appreciate. The condemned often are motivated to consent by their desire for redemption and last act of contribution to family, under their cultural and religious foundation. Who are we to deny their reality and judge them with our Western sensitivity?

There is no proof of systematic abuse by the Chinese government. If there's policy problems they'll work it out themselves.

America's slavery ended after the Civil War, but it took us another 100 years to ink basic semblences of Civil Rights. Apartheid still plague many parts of my country today, as demonstrated by Hurrcain Katrina in New Orleans.

Even we in America have isolated abuses and irregularity here in US. Have you heard the cases in NYC where thousands of bodies were illegally harvested with donation form forged?

Does it constitute "Auschwitz"?

My beef is the "Auschwitz/Never Again" claim Falun Dafa Association of New York made, clearly in anticipation of the Chinese leader's visit. Even the US government had discredited it.

You should be outraged with this outlandish claim too; not only have they discredited your cause, they have disrespected the Jewish people's history and experience by taking the Holocaust suffering in vain.

Regards,

by gerald Wed Apr 19, 2006 10:47

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4921116.stm
"The British Transplantation Society says an accumulating weight of evidence suggests the organs of thousands of executed prisoners in China are being removed for transplants without consent."

"Professor Stephen Wigmore, who chairs the society's ethics committee, told the BBC that the speed of matching donors and patients, sometimes as little as a week, implied prisoners were being selected before execution." ... sounds familiar?

Communist partys denials in 2001.
http://archives.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/asiapcf/east/06/28/c...rgan/

Evidence from another doctor that came forward in 2001.
http://www.vachss.com/help_text/styles/archive-print.php

Many western experts have had no doubts this is happening to prisoners in China. Many Falun Gong practitioners have disappeared off the face of the earth since the persecution began. Where did they go?

by bobby fletcher Wed Apr 19, 2006 01:25

maybe it is, maybe it isn't. Which is why proof is so important

Where's your proof? I didn't call long-distance to China and Wahsington DC for nothing. I verified my source (you can call them yourself, I gave you the phone number.)

Sadly I can't do the same with Epoch's evidence - they are unverifiable.

US government's investigation started 2nd week of March, ended on 3/21 with US Shenyang consulate officials' visit. It's not reported because it had not received "official status" until now. (I won't comment on why my government sat on this until the Friday afternoon before Chinese leader is scheduled to visit.)

Your Auschwitz where thousands of people, doctors, nurses, guards, equipment, supplpy, facilities, had 5 days to vanish into thin air...

That is science fiction.

You know, I used to give Falun Gong a free pass, since I too do not agree with the crack down. But Falun Dafa NY's "Auschwitz/Never Again" stunt went too far. Not only have you discredited your own cause with this outlandish claim, you have disrespected the Jewish people's experience and history by taking their suffering in vain.

UN investigation will come to light, and I god damn will get to the bottom of it.

by Gerald Tue Apr 18, 2006 00:23

There are many labour camps and hospitals where these things maybe occuring. The press release below outlines the details of international group who plan to go to China and investigate.

The link below is a reponse from the Epoch Times on the US governments guided tour of Sujiatun.
http://www.theepochtimes.com/news/6-4-13/40394.html

International Team Poised to Enter China for “Broad and Rigorous” Investigation of Atrocities against Falun Gong

BRUSSELS (European Falun Gong Information Centre) – A newly-formed international coalition of organizations announced today that investigators from North America, Europe, and Australia will begin applying for visas today as part of a plan to enter China and conduct a “broad and rigorous” investigation of China’s concentration and labour camps.

The coalition also plans to investigate medical facilities throughout China that conduct organ transplants in light of mounting evidence that thousands of Falun Gong practitioners are being killed for their organs there. (news)

Led by the Falun Dafa Association and MingHui website researchers, the Coalition to Investigate the Persecution of Falun Gong in China (CIPFG) includes media, non-profit organizations, and legal professionals that have expertise in uncovering details of human rights abuses in China.

“We have very specific and extensive information on labour and concentration camps throughout China,” says Coalition spokesperson Dr. Sherry Zhang. “We know where the atrocities are taking place, and in many cases we have detailed eyewitness accounts.”

“If the Chinese regime is serious about allowing investigation of these matters, it must open the doors to all transplant hospitals, concentration camps, and labour camps, and do so immediately,” says Zhang. “Anything short of that would indicate, without a doubt, a cover-up.”

The MingHui website receives daily over 500 communications from throughout China detailing human rights abuses against Falun Gong practitioners. This is more than any other organization in the world. Since it first went online in 1999, MingHui has built a vast communication network in China. It therefore has an unparalleled ability to collect eyewitness accounts from China, verify their contents and even safely arrange meetings in China between Falun Gong practitioners and human rights workers.

Zhang says the Coalition plans on putting the knowledge and techniques developed by MingHui and other Coalition members to work on the ground in China. “If the leadership of the Chinese communist regime is at all sincere about investigating these atrocities,” adds Zhang, “it will allow us into the country and guarantee our safety. The situation right now could not be more urgent.”

# # #
Press Release - Apr. 17, 2006 European Falun Gong Information Centre [ http://www.clearharmony.net/ ]

by bobby fletcher Mon Apr 17, 2006 23:54

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060415/pl_afp/uschinasect...04729

"Officers and staff from our embassy in Beijing and consulate in Shenyang have visited the area and the specific site mentioned in these reports on two separate occasions," McCormack said.

"In these visits the officers were allowed to tour the entire facility and grounds and found no evidence that the site is being used for any function other than as a normal public hospital."

The initial finding was reported by The Australian weeks prior

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,1866....html

"It appears the claims by Falun Gong have been at least substantially exaggerated. Initial investigations by researchers for a US congressional committee have identified the site at Sujiatun as a hospital, where it is suspected organ harvesting occurs but on nowhere near the scale claimed"

by anon Sun Apr 16, 2006 00:53

"A patient will present with certain need and in a few days a matching organ is found. As I said earlier, the chance of a match is around one percent. That is, only if there are one hundred live donors there waiting, could this match be possible so quickly....For this to occur it must be a huge organ bank. Let us talk in medical terms what organ bank means. In reality, it means that there is a large population of people classed as donors, any one of whom, if they are deemed a match with a potential recipient, would have their organs taken out, while still alive."

And they are usually called relatives.

by cirosis Sun Apr 16, 2006 00:51

you're still going on about organ harvesting in one state which lets be honest not many people, lets put it this way - no one or wu ming of the respected irish readership can go verify.
We do have an excellent contributor to indymedia ireland from hong kong, (ed) and a few others familiar with sinology, but what gets up my nostrils is that no mention, allusion or comparison has been made with the harvesting of organs on the mexican border with the USA. In less than 5 years over 300 women have been found raped, mutilated and victim to satanic ritual which always includes the removal of their kidneys, livers and hearts.

Or without even treating on the Mexican cases, why not talk about the disappearance of a plane, yes a complete airplane, in Kazhikstan in the late 90s whose only cargo was human organs?

Why is there no centralised link to a campaign against the illegal trade in human organs, and instead concentration on the Chinese cases?

Stealing human organs under any guise is wrong, and in the west, the vile practise which is accompanied by murder without the veneer of legality ( as in China ) has now been brushed under the carpet as a urban myth when it is nothing but. Go research the autopsies in the neighbouring UK of the "suicides" dredged from the Thames, and see how many are "oddly enough" missing their vital organs. Oh yes but they just get buried in paupers' graves or turned into white pudding and aren't religious in any way so the obsessives don't give a fuck

little tip to the paranoid. make sure you look jaundiced or drug adled and no-one {wu ming} will bother stealing your bits

by bobby fletcher Sun Apr 16, 2006 00:37

Let's see the whole thing, just so we can verify it.

Also, your "Falun Gong practitioners were held in the hospital" is not supported. Your own article doesn't even say that, how did you make the jump? Wait, don't tell me - "it's not beyond belief", right?

Your quote says:

"There were Falun Gong followers in Sujiatun" - Where does it say they were in the hospital?

Cite your source. I read from another blogger Sujiatun has 5-6 hospital.

Lucky Epoch Times, they just had to pick the one that's using accupuncture and snake venom injection to treat blood clot; the Stroke clinc doesn't have the facility or expertise to perform any significant surgery.

by Gerald Sat Apr 15, 2006 01:22

Firstly as quoted above from Bobby Fletchers post

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,1866....html

"It appears the claims by Falun Gong have been at least substantially exaggerated. Initial investigations by researchers for a US congressional committee have identified the site at Sujiatun as a hospital, where it is suspected organ harvesting occurs but on nowhere near the scale claimed."

China denies deaths of thousands of Falun Gong followers
Copyright Agence France-Presse, 2006 All reproduction and presentation rights reserved.
BEIJING, April 12, 2006 (AFP) -
"There were Falun Gong followers in Sujiatun, but all of them are now receiving rehabilitation programs in places outside the district," Xinhua news agency quoted Zheng Bin, vice head of the Sujiatun district that runs the hospital in the city of Shenyang, as saying.

The west will always find it difficult to discover the truth of what is happening in China. The CCP is a very secretive organisation that has complete control of the society over there.

The above two quotes point to two things. Falun Gong practitioners were held in the hospital as verified by the CCP itself. Secondly the US do suspect organ harvesting of taking place at this hospital. The CCP claims that the Falun Gong practitioners where getting treated at the hospital, if thats true why where they all moved when these rumors emerged. What were they getting treated for. It sounds very odd to me. So this means that Falun Gong practitioners where held in an organ transplant hospital and where removed from there quickly when people started asking questions why they where being held there.

To the people who are so vocal about saying this is false from the start before they even had evidence to be sure I would wonder what the motivation could be. I have no doubt that CCP has cleaned up the evidence at this place now and is trying to fool westerners. Do you remember during the SARS outbreak how the CCP moved large numbers of patients to military hospitals to hide the extent of the SARS outbreak. It was only the fact that one doctor blew the whislte that the truth was uncovered. This case is quiete similar. One or two people who worked there blew the whislte.

In order to understand the various tricks and techniques the Chinese goverment uses to maintain power I strongly recommend reading the following book:
http://ninecommentaries.com/

Another point is that some one on this list asked the question why the Communist Regime in China is waiting until July to ban the practice of organ transplants. Pehaps they have a back log of organs they want to flog:
http://www.theepochtimes.com/news/6-4-14/40373.html

The following are some quotes from medical doctors about the boasts made on websites by Chinese hospitals about Organ Transplants. Basically they say thats its highly unlikely these ogans were got from legal means:

" It is hard to imagine that it only takes a week to find a matching kidney in China. It would be impossible without a huge number of donors. The donor's medical makeup has to be identified first. Then once the matching organ is found, a cross match will have to be performed between the donor and recipient." - Prof Lili Feng of Baylor Medical School

"According to preliminary statistics by the highly authoritative Chinese Journal of Nephrology Dialysis & Transplantation , about 15,000 to 20,000 organ transplants are performed in China every year, which includes over 5000 kidney transplants." (Dr. Wang Wenyi, who earned her medical doctor's degree from the Department of Pharmacology, Mount Sinai Medical Center, New York)
The official number of executions in China is 3,500 and though some sources say the real figure could be as high as 8,000, that still falls far short of the number of transplants quoted above. Ordinary Chinese people do not like to donate organs for the most part as they believe the body should be buried complete.

"A patient will present with certain need and in a few days a matching organ is found. As I said earlier, the chance of a match is around one percent. That is, only if there are one hundred live donors there waiting, could this match be possible so quickly....For this to occur it must be a huge organ bank. Let us talk in medical terms what organ bank means. In reality, it means that there is a large population of people classed as donors, any one of whom, if they are deemed a match with a potential recipient, would have their organs taken out, while still alive."

Dr. Pang Yubin, M.D. He has done medical research at the U.S. National Institute of Health. Previously he was a medical doctor at the Department of Clinical Oncology, Beijing University Hospital. He earned his medical doctor's degree in Italy.

by bobby fletcher Fri Apr 14, 2006 19:52

Hi, you may be interested in the research I've done on Google, so here's my lame blog cataloging my findings. Feel free to verify them as you see fit:

http://sujiatunfactorhoax.blogspot.com

Also, regarding the "Auschwitz vanished" claim - recently news have surfaced the US consulate in Shenyang had visited the hospital Epoch accused as early as March 21. Interested party feel free to contact the Shenyang consulate, their phone bumber is listed above.

by Yuno Fri Apr 14, 2006 05:11

Reading the thread in the arguments, Bobby has made his points very well.

Falun Gong & Epoch Times.........dare we hope that you practise what you preach? Dare we also hope that you too do believe that it is a mortal sin to ..."bear false witness against thy neighbours.."?

by Yuno Fri Apr 14, 2006 05:11

Reading the thread in the arguments, Bobby has made his points very well.

Falun Gong & Epoch Times.........dare we hope that you practise what you preach? Dare we also hope that you too do believe that it is a mortal sin to ..."bear false witness against thy neighbours.."?

by bobby fletcher Tue Apr 11, 2006 21:14

(yet another thing that doesn't require proof...)

If Epoch Times can't make one story stick, 35 more won't help.

Check the date of the article I ctied. US Congressional investigation started fairly early, yet they didn't find the concentration camp allegation credible.

Disappeared into thin air is certainly possible. If it can move 3 times in 10 days, why not disappear all together?

This is science fiction. Time to lay off the Kung Fu movies, Gearld.

And did you know the stroke hospital is a joint venture involving a Malaysian company? My goodness they are in it too, and they are muslin... Time for us to to drop some depelted uranium dirty bombs on them:

http://crc.gov.my/clinicalTrial/documents/Proposal/TCM_...s.pdf

by Gerald Mon Apr 10, 2006 23:16

Folks it has been weeks since this concentration camp at the hospitial was uncovered. All the evidence is gone now and the CCP is putting on a show having foreign journalists come to have a look. Saying that it doesent exist at this stage or having an investigation now is meaningless.

Currently there are numerous labour camps, detention centres and prisons across China were numberous Falun Gong practitioners are held and tortured to give up their beliefs. This is not the first time that practitioners organs have been taken unlawfully nor is it the first time that practitioners have been detained unlawfully. They all should be released and all the places where they have been detained should be investigated.

The persecution of Falun Gong has been well documented by independent groups and the incident of this hospital was so horrific it grabbed peoples attention but its only the tip of the iceberg. The tip of the iceberg cannot exist independently of the gigantic body underneath the surface. Live organ harvesting is a felony that infuriates everyone, while the large-scale illegal detention, brainwashing, slave labour, torture, sexual abuse, murder, among other despicable things done to the practitioners, are the iceberg underneath the water's surface.

Thanks again to those who made an effort to highlight this issue. Please continue to support in what ever ways you can to end the persecution of Falun Gong practitioners in China.

by bobby fletcher Mon Apr 10, 2006 19:26

How does your article prove my citation isn't credible? My article is not "CCP line", and I have personally verified the article's claim with the International Relations Committee. Now I'm just waiting for the congressional investigation to become official.

Trust me, this will come out.

Now, the article reported the initial finding from US Congress is the concentration camp allegation is not credible. Do you have any proof otherwise, beyond Epoch Times' unverifiable source?

Common sense suggests "innocent until proven guilty". Calling for investigation until the outcome agrees with your agenda will not change that.

by Austrialia Mon Apr 10, 2006 04:49

For the last few years Australian Falun Gong practitioners have been banned from holding banners outside the Chinese Embassy there which is a direct violation of their right to protest. If the Oz government can do this to make extra dollars then a few newspapers can aswell.

http://www.theadvertiser.news.com.au/common/story_page/....html
"Pointedly, Australia goes out of its way to avoid publicly criticisng China for fear of jeopardising lucrative business with our third largest trading partner and growing. For example, Mr Howard never meets the Dalai Lama when he visits Australia to make the case for his native Tibet, occupied by China.
Every month, Mr Downer signs an order placing limits on the protest methods of Falun Gong which maintains a vigil outside the Chinese Embassy in Canberra. "

by bobby fletcher Mon Apr 10, 2006 01:56

How is The Australian newspaper artich that is critical of the Chinese government, as you put it, "CCP line"??? Or is this your standard retort when facts don't agree with you? (Is that you, DJ?)

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,1866....html

‘’It appears the claims by Falun Gong have been at least substantially exaggerated. Initial investigations by researchers for a US congressional committee have identified the site at Sujiatun as a hospital, where it is suspected organ harvesting occurs but on nowhere near the scale claimed'’

Now, if there is no concentration camp, rather isolated cases of abuse and irregularity contrary to Chinese law, then there exists a very different reality than what’s alleged.

While I agree China’s human rights abuse should be examined, as with all human rights abusers in the world including my own country USA - lifting data from websites and writing allegory of “Schindler’s List” is not the way.

If we in the West can not be precise with our facts, only resort to nefarious indictment, who will take what we say seriousely?

by desperado Sun Apr 09, 2006 19:58

Bobby,

You are spewing the (CCP) line...and you're waisting people's time! Give it up.

by bobby fletcher Fri Apr 07, 2006 02:58

Gearld, you hit the nail on the head:

"There does seem to be evidence of organ harvesting and ***its not beyond belief*** that this could be happening to Falun Gong practitioners."

God lord, most things are not beyond belief, including aliens from other dimensions, supernormal abilities like levitation, fox sages, spiritual posession of world leaders (these are all Falun Gong belief if you are familiar with it.)

But Indymda is not a place to write fiction or supposition. You need ***proof that carries prespondrance***. Everthing I cited are sourced openly, publically. Can you vouch for the reliability of your source, which seems to be exclusively Epoch/Falun Gong's unverifiable single-sourced informants?

Why doesn't Epoch Times turn over these evidence/witness to US Congress for protection and verification, so proof of "worse than Auschwitz" can be placed on public record?

Every wonder why so few media outlet had picked up this story? Especially American media who is unfriendly to China? Bill Gertz did it because he's promoting his hate-China book, and NED/CIA funded US propaganda outlet like Freedom House, well...

Sujiatun concentration camp has yet moved again according to Epoch Times. By my count this camp has moved at least 3 times in less than a month. Do you know what kind of logistics is required to up and move, without a trace:

- thousands of detainees
- hundreds of skilled surgens, nurses and families
- hundreds of armed guards and families
- supply, equipments, ration
- new destination facility that can handle 10,000 people in secret, where everyone have to eat drink defecate
- eliminate traces of old facility that can hendle 10,000 people in secret, where everyone ate drank defecated.

Have you seen Guantanamo Bay? Imagine moving THAT 3 times in 10 days, out in the open even. And they only have 700 detainees. Epoch Times' "train moving thousands" story is but an imaginative allegory of "Schindler's List".

Come on!

You know, I can appreciate all the efforts to make changes in China - but if we in the West can not be precise with our facts, and only resort to some well-timed, emotionally satisfying, political indictment whenever Chinese leaders visit, or international events open in China - how can you expect the Chinese people to take us seriousely?

Now, back to the organ harvesting bit. Do you know organ harvesting happens in our respective countries all the time? It's called organ donation. Okay, how about illegal organ harvesting? You bet, it happens too.

At least in America it does. if you don't know, thousands of dead people in New York City had their bones and organs "harvested" without consent, their body stuffed with PVC pipes and plastic bags:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/20....html

Does this constitute "worse than Auschwitz"? It's not beyond belief, as you would say.

by Gerald O'Connor Thu Apr 06, 2006 16:48

Please read below. I believe its happening. So far from what I can see of the debate on this list. There does seem to be evidence of organ harvesting and its not beyond belief that this could be happening to Falun Gong practitioners. The scale is what some people seemed to think was the most important point to debate. (I believe debating how to stop it no matter waht the scale is should be the major point, sincere thanks to those who have taken action)

It would be great if this debate could be brought to the wider society and something done about stopping this atrocity . Please read the latest news below.

Urgent Announcement

Abstract: Witnesses of underground concentration camps, including Sujiatun Camp, have been secretly relocated and are subject to slaughtering anytime. Meanwhile some hospitals in China have suddenly increased the number of transplant operations.

Since 2001, concentration camps similar to the one in Sujiatun have been set up in multiple provinces to detain large numbers of Falun Gong practitioners. In those camps, the authorities perform organ harvesting from live practitioners for sale and then cremate the remains to destroy the evidence. The atrocities were exposed to the international community in the beginning of March. Within three weeks, the underground concentration camp in Sujiatun was quickly relocated. Meanwhile, some hospitals and transplant centers in China are rushing to perform a large number of transplant operations: A slaughter to destroy witnesses/victims of the concentration camps is happening, and we urgently call upon the international community to initiate rescue programs to stop this new genocide.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

To Whom This May Concern:

According to tips from Mainland China and investigations, the Chinese Communist Regime hastily published the "Interim Regulation for Human Organs Transplant Practice" after the Sujiatun Concentration Camp was exposed. However, the regulation will not be effective until July 1, 2006, and thus we suspect the regime was allowing time to destroy all evidence of the crimes. All investigation has confirmed that hospitals and transplant centers in Heilongjiang, Hunan, Shanghai, Zhejiang, Yunnan, Anhui, Shan'xi and Xinjiang are operating overtime to perform transplant operations. Hospital staff members told undercover investigators that patients should come in quickly if he or she wants transplants as they can find matching organs in as short as one or two days and it will be difficult after this batch of organs are used up.

According to non-governmental organizations' investigation in the past, the regime has set up concentrations camps similar to the one in Sujiatun all over the country. Those camps are suspected to specialize in detaining and secretly killing people who firmly believe in Falun Gong. In addition, the camps harvest organs from live Falun Gong practitioners for transplant. Current investigations revealed: The sudden increase of organ supply in China is not an individual case, but is widespread throughout China. The Chinese Communist Regime is suspected to destroy the remains after organ harvesting for transplant to wipe out the evidence. We thus believe that a slaughter of Falun Gong practitioners detained in those camps is taking place at an unusually high rate!

After World War II, the international community deeply regretted that it failed to stop the holocaust and made a solemn "Never Again" promise. Sixty years later, history has given the civilized world an opportunity to correct its past mistake. We hope that this generation can proudly say: We not only made a promise, but we kept our promise. We urgently request the U.S. government, the United Nations and governments of other countries as well as pertinent international organizations to take immediate action and activate all possible mechanisms to stop this new genocide in Mainland China. Every minute of delay will result in irremediable loss of innocent lives and will be a disgrace of the human race!

The Integrated Committee to Investigate the Secret Sujiatun Concentration Camp and the Facts of the Persecution of Falun Gong in China

April 5, 2006

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Note: The Integrated Committee to Investigate the Secret Sujiatun Concentration Camp and the Facts of the Persecution of Falun Gong in China (ICISSCCFPFGC) is a civil group originated by the Falun Dafa Association and Clearwisdom website after the underground concentration camp in Sujiatun was exposed. The organization was formally established on April 4, 2006. Its mission is to form an "Integrated Committee" with all related international organizations, state agencies and media in requesting to go to China to conduct an independent, direct, interference-free investigation to collect evidence, and completely search for the truth of the persecution of Falun Gong, including the Sujiatun Concentration Camp and other secret concentration camps located elsewhere to end this 7-year brutal persecution.

Spokeswoman of the committee: Sherry Zhang, contact phone: 1-415-845-5295

Posting date: 4/6/2006

by getting closer to the truth Thu Apr 06, 2006 04:47

Investigative journalism!!!

by bobby fletcher Wed Apr 05, 2006 08:01

It appears the surprise discovery of an underground tunnel built by japanese army during 1905-1920 period, back in August 2005 could be the inspiration for this twist of fact.

The tunnel was sealed up by the Japanese then and unknown until it was discovered by a photographer from the 918 WWII museum working in Sujiatun.

http://news.sohu.com/20050812/n226651351.shtml

When it was discovered in 2005 the tunnel was half *under water*, above link has a picture of it so everyone can get a good idea how this tunnel can, before its discovery in 2001, hold 6000 people,
plus an army of skilled transplant surgeons, nurses, 500-700 jail guards - equipment, rations, and supplies for nearly 10,000 people - all of them eating drinking defecating on top of each other.

And the amazing thing is Sujiatun is a populated close suburb of Shenyang city, with over 150 foreign company and 50-60 foreign family too - "nobody goes in and out of the concentration camp"?

Come on!

More info about the tunnel, including dimension of the facility:

http://www.u-web.cn/PersonalPCSite/complex562_detail.jsp?itemid=175862&contenttype=TextImage&isindex=0&indexchannelid=-1

"after jumping down and passing two holes, we arrive at the entrance of the underground facility. The hallway is 2 meters long and only wide enough for one person. After the hallway is a wider 8 square meter area. After 5 meters we arrrive at 3 meter wide, 2 meter tall underground structure. Cement covers the walls, it's flooded with water 1 meter deep. the structure is about 4 meter under ground, with some of the walls crumbling.

According to Wang TsenJie who discovered it, from above ground estimation it is 2000 meter long [with widest point @ 3 meter], half completely flooded. Water is clear with fish that have no eyes. Some ammunition and human remains have been found [human remain from WWII.]"

(get help from http://world.altavista.com if you can't read Chinese. It
ain't a billion people's fault.)

(Just for comparison Guantanamo Bay is a huge base, and it only holds 700 detainees.)

by bobby fletcher Wed Apr 05, 2006 07:06

Jay, I love your rasoning. So if I'm an American lawyer, than I too am right?

Anyway, who are they? Are their names available on the website? The only name I can find is a "Steve Sun", the website is registered under his name with a Plano Texas address. Sounds like a Chinese guy.

Please enlighten me.

by bobby fletcher Wed Apr 05, 2006 06:58

Just for the record, who pays for Freedom House is not a huge secret:

http://www.google.com/search?q=Freedom+House+%28NED+OR+...IA%29

Also, according to The Australian article previousely cited, US government has already investigated the concentration camp allegation and found it to be not credible:

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/....html

Initial investigations by researchers for a US congressional committee have identified the site at Sujiatun as a hospital, where it is suspected organ harvesting occurs but on nowhere near the scale claimed by Falun Gong.

by Epoch Times reader Wed Apr 05, 2006 01:51

Just to make it clear, the Epoch Times was set up a group of Falun Gong practitioners in 2001. Originally it was set up because nearly all Chinese media is owned or partly owned by the Chinese government including those over seas and no one was reporting about the persecution of Falun Gong.

If you check the website though you will see that alot of Chinese 'dissidents' get to publish their views here and there is alot of good content generally (in my view). A strenght of the paper in all languages is its China content. It is the only international paper with local chinese correspondents in China that can get real stories over there.

For the Chinese outside of China the Epoch Times is well known, in Dublin I would argue nearly all Chinese know it and if any of them had a story like this to tell, I believe they would tell the Epoch Times.

by Jay Wed Apr 05, 2006 01:16

For all the skeptics on this blog, this group 'WOIPFG' is independant of Falun Gong and founded by American lawyers. It is a NGO solely mandated to investigate the persecution of Falun Gong.

http://www.zhuichaguoji.org/en/

by Joyce Wed Apr 05, 2006 01:09

Hi Yuno,

US and China are not the same and should not be treated the same.

The Chinese Communist Party (CCP) is at the top of the list for their abysmal human rights record. The mass-klling of their own citizens totals about 80 million in the last 50 years. This killing spree has gone unchecked all this time...but actually the evidence of the organ harvesting death camp conspiracy will emerge in broad daylight as it should and hopefully the genocide will stop.

by Be patient Tue Apr 04, 2006 22:44

Did you see this report:?

Freedom House in the US is supporting an investigation,so is the UN and the US Congress.

http://www.freedomhouse.org/religion/news/bn2005/bn-200...6.htm

One NGO investigative report - worth checking:

http://www.zhuichaguoji.org/en/

Let's remember that the Jews reported the atrocities back then in their own jewish press. It's normal that Falun Gong would do the same. After all they have ground reporters in China, and are willing to print testimonies from the witnesses -- other papers are not. Epoch are to be commended for putting those witness accounts in print. This news has got to get out there if we are serious about stopping the genocide.

Complaining alone will not do much.

Back to the top:

"Since the Nuremberg Trials came to a close in 1946, condemning the Nazi officials responsible for the Holocaust, it has been the common hope of the people in the world that concentration camps like Auschwitz, Buchenwald and Dachau, would never again emerge in the history of mankind. The horrifying fact is that a similar facility is at this very moment in operation in China".

by bobby fletcher Tue Apr 04, 2006 21:06

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=%22zhuichaguoj...rg%22

Go see for yourself. But I must say at least that's not the worst offender when it comes to unethical googlbombing. In my opinion Epoch Times NY, whom I suspect is operated by Falun Dafa Association of NY, is what I believe to be the worste offender in "unorthodox reporduction" of news:

This is a very rudamentary result, but it's is so compelling I think people should take a look. I wonder if Google holds news sources to a higher journalistic standard or ethics?

*Web search without Epoch Times' googlebomb:
http://www.google.com/search?q=Sujiatun+-Epoch+-Times,+-NY
(about 75,700, including all things Sujiatun)

with googlebomb:
http://www.google.com/search?q=Sujiatun
(put "Epoch Times, NY" back, about 173,000)

*News search without Epoch Times' googlebomb:
http://news.google.com/news?q=Sujiatun+-Epoch+-Times,+-NY
(14 links)

with googlebomb:
http://news.google.com/news?q=Sujiatun
(put "Epoch Times, NY" back, about 72)

by BarryOn Tue Apr 04, 2006 05:17

I was handed a copy of the epoch times after signing a petetion on this supposed concentration camp. As i read the articles i was shocked to say the least. I then proceded to check online for any action groups i could sign up to but could find none that weren't falon gong related. This i have to say is strange. I mean if there were such crimes against humanity being commited ,surely an independant human rights organisation would be campaigning with falon gong to raise public awareness.

by wait a minute Tue Apr 04, 2006 01:59

So far I’ve seen a 3rd party investigative report on Sujiatun from (NGO) WOIPFG. It is worth checking.

http://www.zhuichaguoji.org/en/

And there is a positive reaction from US Congress–

STATE DEPARTMENT BRIEFINGS
Daily Press Briefing
Adam Ereli, Deputy Spokesman
Washington, DC
March 31, 2006
………..
QUESTION: Okay. I would like to switch the topic a little bit. About the recent revealed Sujiatun concentration camp where it is said thousands of Falun Gong practitioners were killed for their organs, what is the State Department’s comment about that?
MR. ERELI: Well, obviously, any such reports are taken very seriously by us. We haven’t been able to confirm them. We have contacted the Government of China about them. The Chinese have publicly denied the allegations. We’ve made the point that a further investigation would be helpful. We urge that it be done. So at this point, they are basically unconfirmed reports and we’ve raised them and we’ve urged a full investigation.
QUESTION: Did you suggest any international investigation or a third party —
MR. ERELI: No. We’ve raised it with the Chinese and urged them to investigate.
QUESTION: Okay.

Here’s a few media reports I came across. It is worth mentioning that National Review has interviewed Jin Zhong who is the first witness.

AFP: US presses China for probe on Falun Gong organ harvesting claim
http://sg.news.yahoo.com/060401/1/3zs9f.html

U.N. envoy looks at Falun Gong torture allegations
http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=w...False

A place called Sujiatun
http://www.nationalreview.com/nordlinger/nordlinger2006...2.asp

Toronto Sun: For sale: $25,000 for a liver
http://www.torontosun.com/News/Columnists/Worthington_P....html

Washington Times: China harvesting inmates’ organs, journalist says
http://washingtontimes.com/national/20060323-114842-568...r.htm

News Max: Report: China Selling Prisoners’ Body Parts
http://view.e.newsmax.com/?ffcb10-fe8f10737263027d70-fe...0746d

Directorio participates in Falung Gong press conference before the UN http://www.directorio.org/press_releases/press_releases...d=966

Scoop (NZ) April 1 2006 - Wen's visit Aust.: Dollars before human rights

Asia Cast Bulletin (Sound of Hope) WOIPFG gathers evidence of Sujiatun Organ Harvesting Death Camp for Falun Gong

Taipei Times: Falun Gong says China harvesting organs in camp

Let's hope for the UN to launch a 3rd party investigation on the news of these death camps. I personally don't have a hard time to believe that the whole thing is true knowing how malicious the CCP is and has been-with killing 80 million of its own people in 50 years.

BTW - Consulates and Foreign Affairs will deny this until proven. And the Hong Kong Investigation is void because that is CCP sponsored. The CCP is in BIG denial mode with that one.

by bobby fletcher Mon Apr 03, 2006 19:10

Looks like there are some serious research and work ahead of to dealing with US congressional committee who seems to know something about this concentration camp allegation but for some reason is stonewalling my request for information.

Here're more news that aired on the authenticity of the allegation:

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/....html

"Initial investigations by researchers for a US congressional committee have identified the site at Sujiatun as a hospital, where it is suspected organ harvesting occurs but on nowhere near the scale claimed"

Now, if there is no concentration camp, rather isolated instances of abuse and irregularity contrary to Chinese law, then there exists a very different reality than what's alleged.

I've been contacting the congressional committee on International relations, Asia Pacific subcommittee. However they seem to be unwilling to help me. I suspect it may be our government's wish to remain ambiguous on this issue.

Looks like I may need to research how to make FOIA request to congressional committee. I'm just a priviate citizen without substantial resource and time; it's beginning to feel like a lost cause.

Those who value truth and justice please help.

by Gerald O'Connor Mon Apr 03, 2006 09:48

Update:
New Witness Tells of 36 China Concentration Camps,
Falun Gong Bodies Used as “Raw Materials” for Profiteering
http://www.faluninfo.net/displayAnArticle.asp?ID=9375

Also I saw in the Dail that the Irish government is going to investigate these claims. I'll keep you posted.

by Yuno Fri Mar 31, 2006 09:19

Would the Falun Gong people believe the accusations levelled against the US's role in harvesting body parts?

US Harrvesting Organs from Iraqis
http://usinfo.state.gov/media/Archive/2005/Jan/14-47534....html

Baby Parts
http://usinfo.state.gov/media/Archive_Index/The_Baby_Pa....html

Kidney Snatchers
http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/weekly/aa062997.htm

If not why not?

by bobby fletcher Fri Mar 31, 2006 05:41

Gerald, now you are just lying. Both articles where from Australian newspaper. Is the Australian Royal Police also on the take? They said Chen's lone kidnap allegation isn't credible.

Not to mention even Chen himself had back tracked on the claim.

The fact is Chen Yonglin couldn't produce his "1000 spy" list when challanged, only to wave it around in an attempt to intimidate people. He also made the charge that China had sent 3 ninja super spies to assassinate him last year (as if 1000 spies in Australia can't take care of this?) As far as I know Chen is still live and kicking.

*Now*, back to the Sujiatun concentration camp propaganda you discredited Indymedia with:

100 year old international Hong Kong news agency goes to Sujiatun and Lanzhou University to investigate Epoch Times' allegations, and they find a pile of hooey.

Following are translations of their news articles Exposing Epoch Time's lies:

* Lanzhou University student registry doesn't have students named in Epoch Time's article, no one has been arrested as alleged:

http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.china/msg/91...d1f0c

* Reporters investigate concentration camp at Sujiatun stroke clinic find no evidence:

http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.china/msg/e2...de2ec

Here's bio of TaKungPao.com: a web division of 100 year old Hong Kong newspaper TaKungPao that sells 45% of it's papers in US and Canada:

http://www.takungpao.com/inc/ziliao/introduce.asp

by Gerald O'Connor Thu Mar 30, 2006 15:07

Sorry made a mistake in fist post.

I read the articles you sent. They were published by the Chinese state run media. The part that matters "But Lan Fu's lawyer, Zhu Yongping, emphatically denied the kidnap story this week, insisting his client had given himself up voluntarily. ", the lawyer could have easily have been forced to say that as he is in China.

One thing to note in the persecution of Falun Gong is that it is persecuted by one of the biggest Nations in the world that has considerable resources. The Chinese state owned media is used frequently to direct public opinion and sometimes the western media follows it.

Sadly in this war of words between Falun Gong and the Chinese Communist Party its up to the individual to make up their own mind what the truth is. Look at the CCP's history to get a good idea of what is happening. During the cultual revolution, 1989 student massacre etc they used various techniques to terrorify the Chinese people and consolidate their own power. Sadly during the war of words or propaganda as some people call it, a lot of people are dying and suffering.

Communism is not China.

by Gerald O'Connor Thu Mar 30, 2006 15:04

I read the articles you sent. They were published by the Chinese state run media. The part that matters "But Lan Fu's lawyer, Zhu Yongping, emphatically denied the kidnap story this week, insisting his client had given himself up voluntarily. ", the lawyer could have easily have been forced to say that as he is China.

One thing to note in the persecution of Falun Gong is that it is persecuted by one of the biggest Nations in the world that has considerable resources. The Chinese state owned media is used frequently to direct public opinion and sometimes the western media follows it.

Sadly in this war of words between Falun Gong and the Chinese Communist Party its up to the individual to make up their own mind what the truth is. Look at the CCP's history to get a good idea of what is happening. During the cultual revolution, 1989 student massacre etc they used various techniques to terrorify the Chinese people and consolidate their own power. Sadly during the war of words or propaganda as some people call it, a lot of people are dying and suffering.

Communism is not China.

by bobby fletcher Thu Mar 30, 2006 10:43

Come off it, lad. The person you are refering to, Chen Yonglin, has been completely discredited
since AU government granted him protection visa. Following reports are both from Australian media:

***No kidnap claim evidence***
NEWS.com.au, Australia [Jul 26, 2005]

AN Australian Federal Police investigation has found no evidence to support a claim used by
Chinese defector Chen Yonglin to back his bid for political asylumDefector's kidnap backtrack

http://www.google.com/search?q=%22AN+Australian+Federal...or%22

***SERIOUS doubts*** have been cast on one of the key claims renegade Chinese diplomat
Chen Yonglin used to justify his attempted defection to Australia.

Mr Chen accused Beijing of mounting a kidnapping operation on Australian soil to take hostage
the student son of a fugitive Chinese politician to coerce his return home to face justice.

But yesterday he backed away from the claims when confronted by new evidence. "I said that in
fear, and I don't want to talk about it again,"

http://www.google.com/search?q=%22SERIOUS+doubts+have+b...se%22

by pat c Thu Mar 30, 2006 10:35

obviously these claims are true. otherwise the chinese govt would not be promising to ban the illegal sale of organs. its been known for a long time that prisoners organs were being sold. why would anyone think that falun prisoners would be exempt from this?

by Gerald O'Connor Thu Mar 30, 2006 10:07

From Falun Gong practitioners mostly you will get personal accounts because it is difficult to get info out. I think the washington post have done two investigative reports on Falun Gong. One of them was about a woman who was tortured to death in a labour camp and the other was about the staged self immolation in 2001. The first one won a pulitzer prize.

Here is an interesting third party report from the Herald Sun in Australia. One of the peitioners is a man who dramatically left his post in the Chinese consulate in Australia last year because his job was monitoring Falun Gong practitioners. Below the link to the Australia article is an article from the Irish examiner a few months back about the claims of this offical.

http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,54....html

http://archives.tcm.ie/breakingnews/2005/06/08/story206...2.asp
China 'running spies in Australia and the West'

8:05:03 AM

A second Chinese defector has backed claims by a diplomat who left his job at China’s consulate in Sydney that Beijing is running a large spy network in Australia and other Western countries.

The diplomat, Chen Yonglin, walked away from his post as the first secretary at the Chinese Consulate-General last month to seek political asylum in Australia.

Chen, 37, claimed China had 1,000 spies in Australia involved in illegal activities including abducting Chinese nationals and smuggling them back to China.

The Chinese Foreign Ministry has dismissed Chen’s claims as slander.

But a second Chinese official seeking asylum in Australia, Hao Fengjun, 32, backed Chen’s claim of a Chinese spy network in Australia in an interview with Australian Broadcasting Corporation television late yesterday.

Hao said he was a member of China’s internal security police engaged in the suppression of dissidents before be came to Australia in February as a tourist and sought asylum.

“I worked in the police office in the security bureau and I believe what Mr. Chen says is true,” Hao told the ABC through an interpreter.

“As far as I know, they have spies in the consulate but they also have a network of spies they’ve sent out,” he said.

“They send businessmen and students out to overseas countries as spies. They also infiltrate the Falun Gong and other dissident groups,” he added.

The government has yet to rule on the asylum applications of either Chen or Hao, which complicate bilateral relations as Australia and China negotiate a free trade agreement.

Foreign Minister Alexander Downer said Chen’s application would be judged on its merits.

Australia-China Business Council Chairman Warwick Smith said Australian businesses dealing with China agreed that burgeoning trade would not suffer.

“It’s probably fair to say that the trade relationship is an extremely strong one and I don’t believe that these matters will in any way impinge upon the development of that trade,” Smith told the ABC.

Hao, who said he had top-secret information and would be severely punished if he returned to China, said he worked in China’s third largest city, Tianjin, for a spy agency known as 6-10 Office, which monitored the banned Falun Gong movement. He said he saw evidence of torture.

by Yuno Thu Mar 30, 2006 02:20

If the Falun Gong have the evidence, there are proper channels to go to since it is claimed that evidence are already 'well documented' since 1999 [ 7 years ago] - instead of shamelessly 'flogging' its members on the streets.

However I hope the 'evidence' is not in the same vein as the babies in the incubator story from Kuwait before the first Gulf War. It started a war and now proven to be staged evidence.

by south china man Thu Mar 30, 2006 02:11

frankly speaking i dont hav problems w/ FG, as long as they dont step into my sight, trying to make me become one of them. i mean i am a buddhist, i would feel offenced if a christian ppl comes up to me to say hey mate you should believe in my god.
i m not a CCP supporter, but as some other readers posted above, i really hope there's backup articales from sources other than FG or religious orgs.
i dont like CCP becoz they dont let ppl know things they dont want ppl to know. i am sick of getting info from a single news source. FG claims should too be supported by some professional medias, orelse doubts would arise.

by Gerald O'Connor Wed Mar 29, 2006 14:45

I think them banning the sale of organs 'now' is related to the claims that they are have a labour camp for Falun Gong practitioners where they are selling their body parts. They have come under enormous pressure. People are horrified by the fact that they are selling the organs of people with out their consent be it Falun Gong practitioners or prisoners on death row. Why is it hard to believe that they would do this to Falun Gong practitioners when it is recognised that they do it to prisonors on death row? Many people would agree that Falun Gong has been considered by the communists enemy no. 1 since 1999.

The article in the Irish times today on this issue is quite good i think. They say that it will be hard to stop this trade of organs because a lot of people are making a lot of money out of it. I think its possible that this new law is to keep their critics happy, just like them signing the international convention on human rights a few years ago. All for show, and when after this storm blows over and people continue to sell body parts after the law comes in, I dont believe they will enforce the law.

I would love to hear why their is such a negative tone towards Falun Gong. What have we done to warrant that? We only ask for your help.

An update press release is below:

PRESS STATEMENT - Mar. 29, 2006 European Falun Gong Information Centre [ http://www.clearharmony.net/ ]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Amidst the Evidence, Denying Sujiatun Organ Trafficking Must Not Stand

Statement from the European Falun Gong Information Centre

LONDON (EFGIC) – According to a March 28 Associated Press report, the Chinese Communist regime has denied the existence of a Sujiatun concentration camp. Sources indicate thousands of Falun Gong practitioners have been held in Sujiatun, and, these sources say, that as many as three quarters of them were cremated after their organs were removed.

Faced with gory accounts of organs being systematically removed from live and barely anaesthetized prisoners, we all wish the information were false. Extraordinary acts of evil have never been easy to believe – how could humans possibly do such things to each another?

Unfortunately, details disclosed by these sources and an overwhelming body of supporting information suggests the fundamentals of the story – that a large number of Falun Gong practitioners were, and perhaps many still are, being held in the Sujiatun area to harvest their organs – is true, and demands an immediate, unrestricted international investigation.

First, information about Sujiatun has come from multiple sources who have provided consistent accounts. A Chinese reporter who had worked for a Japanese news agency broke the story on March 9. Next, a woman who had worked at the Sujiatun hospital in which the organs are said to be removed from prisoners in the adjoining concentration camp stepped forward. She says her ex-husband had been responsible for removing corneas from live Falun Gong prisoners there.

The World Organization to Investigate the Persecution of Falun Gong (WOIPFG) has since conducted its own investigation, obtaining additional information. Moreover, since The Epoch Times broke the story two weeks ago, the Falun Dafa Information Center has learned that several Chinese readers have contacted the paper, citing experiences that support the original accounts.

Second, the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) has a well-documented practice of organ harvesting without prior consent, often from executed prisoners. Reports of this practice have appeared in leading newspapers and been the subject of U.S. congressional hearings.

Third, removal of organs from Falun Gong practitioners killed in custody has already been documented. Since 1999, the CCP has routinely tortured and killed Falun Gong practitioners, a fact recognized by Amnesty International and the U.S. State Department’s annual reports (report). A Falun Gong Human Rights Working Group report (report) details specific cases in which organs were removed from the bodies of Falun Gong practitioners who had been tortured to death.

Sadly, the information revealed about Sujiatun fits in exactly with the CCP’s pattern of disregard for human life. After banning Falun Gong in 1999, former Chinese leader Jiang Zemin said: “no means are too extreme to eliminate Falun Gong.” Police officers regularly tell prisoners that “when a Falun Gong practitioner dies in jail it counts as null and is considered suicide.”

There are other disturbing statistics. According to a Chinese-language health website, www.hbver.com, beginning in 2000, the total number of liver transplants in China almost doubled each year. Today China's International Transplantation Network Assistance Center (http://en.zoukiishoku.com) boasts that a suitable kidney donor can be found in 1-4 weeks. If the first organ is found by the doctor to be unsuitable, a new organ will be offered "in one week." At the same time, there are hundreds, if not thousands of reports of Falun Gong practitioners in China who say family members who had been abducted by police have never been heard from again. Why have they all gone?

The timing of the CCP’s denial is also suspicious. Why did the regime wait for over two weeks to deny Sujiatun? And why did the CCP, after years of known illicit organ trafficking but just weeks after Sujiatun was revealed, also today suddenly announce a new law against organ trafficking?

We call for a thorough and real investigation, not a show tour, by independent international organizations, allowing a WOIPFG researcher immediate and unrestricted access to the entire area. Anything short of complete access is a cover up.

We also urge journalists in Beijing and around the world to dig into the story, and include the facts of organ harvesting that are already widely known in your reports. Quotes from representatives of the Chinese regime alone do not constitute real news. We encourage you to find out what is really happening, and report the truth.

# # #

PRESS STATEMENT - Mar. 29, 2006
European Falun Gong Information Centre, www.clearharmony.net

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Background

Falun Gong, also known as Falun Dafa (about), is a practice of the Buddha School, consisting of meditation and exercises, with teachings that emphasize living by three principles: truthfulness, compassion, and tolerance. Originating in China, Falun Gong is now practiced in over 70 countries. With Chinese government estimates of 100 million practicing Falun Gong in China, in July 1999 the Chinese Communist Party-state launched a nationwide, violent campaign to “eradicate” the practice. The European Falun Gong Information Centre has verified details of 2,864 deaths and over 44,000 cases of torture (reports / sources). Millions have been detained or sent to forced labor camps.

FOR MORE DETAILS, PLEASE CONTACT THE EUROPEAN FALUN GONG INFORMATION CENTRE - Peter Jauhal + 44 (0) 7739 172 452 Nicolas Schols + 32 (0) 479 875 734 Email: europe@falungonginfo.net

by pat c Wed Mar 29, 2006 14:36

The BBC say the ban doesnt come into effect until July. Full story at link.

"China bans transplant organ sales

China has said it will ban the sale of human organs from July in an attempt to clean up its transplant industry. New regulations published by the health ministry require donors to give written permission and say transplants should be done only in specialist hospitals. "

by pat c Wed Mar 29, 2006 13:50

"And so PRC has introduced a ban on the black market of human organs which will come into place on june 1 2006."

why doesnt it come into effect until 1 june 2006? whats happening in the meantime? if its still legal for another 2 months to trade in organs then you can be sure it will occur.

and after 1 june 2006 the CCP burocrats and prison guards anf doctors will of course obey the law. wont they? after all they are noted for their adherence to human rights. such as running factories on slave prison labour.

by info Wed Mar 29, 2006 13:09

And so PRC has introduced a ban on the black market of human organs which will come into place on june 1 2006.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/china/story/0,,1741784,00.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4853188.stm
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2006-03/28/content_43...0.htm
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2006-03/27/content_43...0.htm

by Gerald O'Connor - Falun Dafa Information Centre Wed Mar 29, 2006 12:19

PRESS STATEMENT - Mar. 29, 2006 European Falun Gong Information Centre [ http://www.clearharmony.net/ ]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Amidst the Evidence, Denying Sujiatun Organ Trafficking Must Not Stand

Statement from the European Falun Gong Information Centre

LONDON (EFGIC) – According to a March 28 Associated Press report, the Chinese Communist regime has denied the existence of a Sujiatun concentration camp. Sources indicate thousands of Falun Gong practitioners have been held in Sujiatun, and, these sources say, that as many as three quarters of them were cremated after their organs were removed.

Faced with gory accounts of organs being systematically removed from live and barely anaesthetized prisoners, we all wish the information were false. Extraordinary acts of evil have never been easy to believe – how could humans possibly do such things to each another?

Unfortunately, details disclosed by these sources and an overwhelming body of supporting information suggests the fundamentals of the story – that a large number of Falun Gong practitioners were, and perhaps many still are, being held in the Sujiatun area to harvest their organs – is true, and demands an immediate, unrestricted international investigation.

First, information about Sujiatun has come from multiple sources who have provided consistent accounts. A Chinese reporter who had worked for a Japanese news agency broke the story on March 9. Next, a woman who had worked at the Sujiatun hospital in which the organs are said to be removed from prisoners in the adjoining concentration camp stepped forward. She says her ex-husband had been responsible for removing corneas from live Falun Gong prisoners there.

The World Organization to Investigate the Persecution of Falun Gong (WOIPFG) has since conducted its own investigation, obtaining additional information. Moreover, since The Epoch Times broke the story two weeks ago, the Falun Dafa Information Center has learned that several Chinese readers have contacted the paper, citing experiences that support the original accounts.

Second, the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) has a well-documented practice of organ harvesting without prior consent, often from executed prisoners. Reports of this practice have appeared in leading newspapers and been the subject of U.S. congressional hearings.

Third, removal of organs from Falun Gong practitioners killed in custody has already been documented. Since 1999, the CCP has routinely tortured and killed Falun Gong practitioners, a fact recognized by Amnesty International and the U.S. State Department’s annual reports (report). A Falun Gong Human Rights Working Group report (report) details specific cases in which organs were removed from the bodies of Falun Gong practitioners who had been tortured to death.

Sadly, the information revealed about Sujiatun fits in exactly with the CCP’s pattern of disregard for human life. After banning Falun Gong in 1999, former Chinese leader Jiang Zemin said: “no means are too extreme to eliminate Falun Gong.” Police officers regularly tell prisoners that “when a Falun Gong practitioner dies in jail it counts as null and is considered suicide.”

There are other disturbing statistics. According to a Chinese-language health website, www.hbver.com, beginning in 2000, the total number of liver transplants in China almost doubled each year. Today China's International Transplantation Network Assistance Center (http://en.zoukiishoku.com) boasts that a suitable kidney donor can be found in 1-4 weeks. If the first organ is found by the doctor to be unsuitable, a new organ will be offered "in one week." At the same time, there are hundreds, if not thousands of reports of Falun Gong practitioners in China who say family members who had been abducted by police have never been heard from again. Why have they all gone?

The timing of the CCP’s denial is also suspicious. Why did the regime wait for over two weeks to deny Sujiatun? And why did the CCP, after years of known illicit organ trafficking but just weeks after Sujiatun was revealed, also today suddenly announce a new law against organ trafficking?

We call for a thorough and real investigation, not a show tour, by independent international organizations, allowing a WOIPFG researcher immediate and unrestricted access to the entire area. Anything short of complete access is a cover up.

We also urge journalists in Beijing and around the world to dig into the story, and include the facts of organ harvesting that are already widely known in your reports. Quotes from representatives of the Chinese regime alone do not constitute real news. We encourage you to find out what is really happening, and report the truth.

# # #

PRESS STATEMENT - Mar. 29, 2006
European Falun Gong Information Centre, www.clearharmony.net

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Background

Falun Gong, also known as Falun Dafa (about), is a practice of the Buddha School, consisting of meditation and exercises, with teachings that emphasize living by three principles: truthfulness, compassion, and tolerance. Originating in China, Falun Gong is now practiced in over 70 countries. With Chinese government estimates of 100 million practicing Falun Gong in China, in July 1999 the Chinese Communist Party-state launched a nationwide, violent campaign to “eradicate” the practice. The European Falun Gong Information Centre has verified details of 2,864 deaths and over 44,000 cases of torture (reports / sources). Millions have been detained or sent to forced labor camps.

FOR MORE DETAILS, PLEASE CONTACT THE EUROPEAN FALUN GONG INFORMATION CENTRE - Peter Jauhal + 44 (0) 7739 172 452 Nicolas Schols + 32 (0) 479 875 734 Email: europe@falungonginfo.net

by bobby fletcher Tue Mar 28, 2006 20:09

Here's what a blogger in China did, he called the US embassy in Shenyang and asked them if this story is true.
They said no. Please feel free to call them yourselves. Number is listed below:

"The last couple days even Epoch Time knew it's [lies] been blown, after articles upon articles of tireless shriking,
demanding US governmet and the President to come forward to investigate Sujiatun concentration camp! Trying
to pull out the big flag and wearing donkey skin prtending it's a tiger. This gave us a thought, isn't there a US
consulate in Shenyang! I called and asked: Is this the US consulate in Shenyang? Great, sorry to trouble you, I'd
like to ask about the report that Chinese communists setting up a concentration camp in Shenyang's storke clinic,
detaining 6000 Falun Gong practioners, they are being murdered, and their organs are harvested and exported to
Thailand - is this for real? Guess what the US consulate said? Just one word: NO!

Foreign consulates of every nation have the responsiblity to provide services to its citizens, including economic,
cultural, and local news and events. I recommend those who livin in America that have questions about Falun
Gong's claim call their local embassy in Shenyang. Their phone number is (86-24) 2322-1198. They will give
you a satisfactory answer."

(Here's US Shenyang embassy's website: http://shenyang.usconsulate.gov/service2.html)

"这两天大记元也知道漏馅了
，接二连三的发表文章，声嘶­力竭的叫喊；要求美国政府，要求美国总统出面调查
苏家­屯的集中营！想拉大旗以驴皮变虎皮。这正好给我
们提了­个醒！美国在沈阳市
设有领事馆！我拿起电话来一拨就通­；这是美国驻沈阳领事馆吗，好。麻烦您，询
问一件事，­#21548;说中共在苏家
屯血栓医院建立了一所集中营，关押着六­千名法轮功，
全部杀害，还盗取他们的身体器管，出口到­了泰国，不
知是否真有其事？您猜猜美国领事馆怎么说的­？就一字
；?ＮＯ?！ (海纳百川 ww.hjclub.com)

任何一个国家的驻外领馆，都有责任，有义务向本国居
民，公民提供驻地的政治、经济、文化和风土人情。所
以我特别建议那些在美国居住对法轮功谣言还持有怀疑
的人，­应当立即拨打美国驻
沈阳领事馆的电话，号码是；８６２４２３２２１１９
８，他们将会给您一个准确而满意的答复"

by Gerald O'Connor - Falun Dafa Information Centre Mon Mar 27, 2006 10:19

Sorry for generalising.

Initialy the Chinese government gave Falun Gong awards and it was accepted in China. The First Falun Gong lectures outside China where given in Chinese Embassies. The problem arose when the practice became too popular. Falun Gong's spiritual teaching is the opposite to the Chinese Communist Aethist Regime. When the number of Falun Gong members grew larger than the number of members in the Chinese communist party they becamed threatened although Falun Gong is a spiritual practice that does not want political power.

The method of the persecution was initially to use the media to spread lies. Then invent laws that made Falun Gong illegal and then arrest people and torture them to stop them from practicing Falun Gong. Many did stop but many didnt because they believed they had found something worth holding on to.

There are a couple of reasons why the persecution has lasted this long. One is that the Communist party is excellent at instilling fear into to people to that they dare not disobey it. What the Communist party say Falun Gong is bad then people are too afraid to speak up. Say it often enough and people believe it. At the same time that they use the state control media to full peoples heads with hate against Falun Gong, while at the same time in labour camps and prisons they work hard at exterminating Falun Gong practitioners.

The Communist Party has learned alot of tricks over the past fifty years. During the great leap foward, the cultural revolution, the 1989 student massacre they have used every unspeakable methods to terrify the Chinese people and consolidate power. Many of these tactics have been used in the persecution of Falun Gong practitoners.

When Chinese people hear westerners say that Falun Gong is persecuted and practitioners are tortured, in reply they often restate the Chinese governments propaganda "The founder is a millionare", "They dont work", "They kill themselves and others", "They dont take medicine". In my view these are lies that were fed to Chinese people through the state Controled media however even if they were not do these claims justify the persecution. They dont.

by YunoHu Mon Mar 27, 2006 08:30

Falun Gong spokesman seems to generalise a lot, accusing me of saying that 'killing' is acceptable when I did not say anything like that. It is baseless accusations like these that make people question the Falun Gong movement.

Falun Gong have a recourse with the UN through people like Mr. Novak, as have explained previously, and he has NOT confirmed any of the wild Falun Gong claims. So what more is there to say?

As for the Washington Times [ also a CIA front ], it is officially owned by the Moonies. Rev Moon of South Korea and the head of the Moonies, was crowned 'The Messiah' in the USA Senate!!

Mr. Li founder of Falun Gong changing his birthdate to that of the Buddha, Rev Moon crowned " The Messiah" [ God help the Catholics]. Falun Gong..........Moonies...........

by Gerald O Connor - Falun Gong Information Centre Mon Mar 27, 2006 00:42

YunoHu you need to read you're comments carefully and ask yourself why you hate Falun Gong so much to think killing them is acceptable.

Dont you realise you are the one who has been brain washed to hate Falun Gong?

I suggest you to read the Nine Commentaries, its a good read that fully exposes the Chinese Communist Party for what it is.
http://ninecommentaries.com/

by YunoHu Sun Mar 26, 2006 06:31

There are many websites and people that will gladly do a black op for money...including black op against the IRA if memory still holds? Why not the Falun Gong? Not that anyone sanctions violence or crimes.

Falun Gong has always been set up to be political. The founder of Falun Gong, Mr.Li , lives in luxury in the US. Many of his 'followers' demonstrate ceaselessly without holding any job. Who pays for them? If the Dalai Lama takes money from the CIA [ as published by the LA Times USA ] in the early '60s to the tune of US$2 million p.a. then, why not now or equally applicable to the Falun Gong? After all, it is the US that has publicly announced that they wanted a "regime change" for China.

Then there is the strange attempted change of Mr. Li's birthdate to that of the Buddha!. Get this he wanted to forge his birthdate to that of Buddha! One can only guess why. The movement goes around trying to primarily 'save' only chinese. Other races are not fit to be saved?

Lastly there is a UN inspection team headed by Mr. Novak who was given a free and unconditional access to investigate those alleged crimes in China. He has basically found nothing to shout about. Interestingly, the same UN team was NOT granted unconditional and free access to investigate Guantanmo causing Mr. Novak to speak out in disgust against the US and he refused to investigate Gitmo. What is there to hide?

by makina Sun Mar 26, 2006 00:30

The witnesses have spoken...now the world should listen and stop the genocide in its tracks! History doesn't have to repeat itself.

It is an open secret that China has been harvesting organs from prisoners (and now the Falun Gong) without their consent for more than 20 years. This has helped pave the way to this mass killing operation to take place in Sujiatun. The authorities shamelessly advertise online that the freshest organs can be had for a good price at Shenyang City--that is exactly where the Sujiatun organ harvesting death camp for Falun Gong is located. How many proofs does the world need before stopping these crimes against humanity.

Now that the truth is out maybe the Falun Gong will have a chance to survive this abominable coup from the Chinese Communist Party's dictators.

From the 6000 Falun Gong that were initially held at the Sujiatun death camp, there are apparently 2000 of them left. Witnesses are concerned that they will be eliminated to hide the evidence.

Please urge your government to stop this atrocity.

http://washingtontimes.com/national/20060323-114842-568...r.htm

by pat c Thu Mar 23, 2006 11:21

there was an article in yesterdays irish times about the organ harvesting. anyone got a paid subscription to the IT? this is no urban myth. you dont have to be a supporter of the Falun Gong to oppose these crimes against humanity.

by Gerald O'Connor - Falun Dafa Information Centre Thu Mar 23, 2006 10:30

Have a read of the website below. It is a webpage advertising for organ transplantation at the cheapest prices in the world. Calling itself
"China International Transplantation Network Assistance Center". Do you know why it says its better than all the other transplantation centres in the world ... because they say they transplant from live donors. It says that the organs are donated by volunteers and it also says that the organ is not part of the price it is free. Does anyone believe that? These transplation centre is in the same city as Falun Gong claim the concentration camp for organ harvesting is.

China International Transplantation Network Assistance Center
> http://www.zoukiishoku.com
> http://en.zoukiishoku.com/list/facts.htm

In the Question and Answer section they basically say that their organs
come from living donors. Implying that they have the competitive
advantage in the field of organ transplantation because in other
countries the organs are not from living donors.

Q.Is it possible to be infected with other diseases such as HIV or
hepatitis after the kidney transplantation?
A:It is not necessary to worry about that. The biggest problem with a
*kidney transplantation * is the tissue match. Before the *living kidney
transplantation *, we will examine the donors renal function and
leukocyte in order to assure the safety of the *kidney *. So it is more
safe and reliable here than in other countries, where the organ is not
from a living donor.

by YunoHu Thu Mar 23, 2006 01:05

Organ Harvesting 06

None other than the US State Dept describes the organ harvesting as "Urban Myth".

See: http://usinfo.state.gov/media/Archive_Index/The_Baby_Pa....html

Afraid the Falun Gong aka as the Epoch Times, has been used as "useful fools" in the continuing black propaganda against China. There are numerous western countries allegedly harvesting organs since the '90s but why the silence from Falun Gong? BTW Ogan harvesting without the person's consent is illegal in China.

We know of many chinese who have benefitted from western gov't 'largesse' being granted 'refugee' status as well as providing good living as long as these people say the most vile things against China. These are well known 'standard operations' - as the military terms it.

by Gerald O'Connor - Falun Dafa Information Centre Wed Mar 22, 2006 04:24

It is very difficult to get information out of China. The main source of information is obviously going to be Falun Gong practitioners themselves. What other source can you expect? They are being persecuted so they tell people, at most you would have another media interview them.

Whether its genocide or not is just semantics. They are collecting people in to labour camps, trying to force them to give up their beleifs and when they dont they torture them, and finally when that doesent work they send them off to places where nobody knows where they are and kill them for profit. What word best describes this practice (Genocide!).

When I heard this news I was horrified and wanted to do something to stop it. I think Falun Gong practitioners have proved themselves a good source of information. It is a terrible thing that the people with good reputation who are claiming that such a horrible thing is happening are the ones that are put under the spotlight. I do believe that when the persecution of Falun Gong ends, people will be horrified at the lenghts the Chinese government went to eradicate the practice, and people will be sorry they did not do more to help.

by faktchekr Wed Mar 22, 2006 02:31

If Human Rights Watch (which has about 125 other stories about Falun Gong on their site) or any non-FG organization could back this up, I'd be less dubious. It's members are not an entire culture, so "genocide" is obviously an inflammatory exaggeration, even when applied to horrific murders. There are many legitimate news outlets (non-Fulan Gong operated) and blogs that have shown enthusiasm for the publication of Falun Gong persecution stories, but none have picked up this story in over a week.

The FG should not distract people from proven human rights and environmental abuses in China, of which there are many.

Attacking people for doubting propaganda is particularly ironic when discussing China.

by KAkeby Fri Mar 17, 2006 15:35

Someone asked for original articles - what do you mean, why have a comment like that. Do you have a brain damage? You have orignal articles on http://www.theepochtimes.com/index10.html.

by Gerald - Falun Dafa Information Centre Thu Mar 16, 2006 11:56

(More details unfolding, please contact your local TD councillor and ask for action to be taken.)

WOIPFG: An Investigation Report on the Death Camp in Sujiatun, Shenyang City, Liaoning Province (Part I)

(Clearwisdom.net)

An investigation report on the death camp in Sujiatun, Shenyang City, Liaoning Province: Regarding its systematic practice of removing organs from living Falun Gong practitioners

After it was revealed that the death camp in Sujiatun has been removing organs from living Falun Gong practitioners before throwing their bodies into an on-site crematorium, World Organization to Investigate the Persecution of Falun Gong (WOIPFG) immediately began an urgent investigation. Because this investigation is still in progress, the results will be published separately. This is the first of many investigations to come.

According to our initial investigation, there truly exists a large "organ market" in Sujiatun, Shenyang City, Liaoning Province, China. It is a systematic procedural practice, which includes building the death camp, detaining the "suppliers" (living Falun Gong practitioners), matching Falun Gong practitioners' organs with people who need them, surgically removing the organs, eliminating the victims' bodies and setting up the hospitals that use these stolen organs. The hospitals may be located outside of Sujiatun. International human rights organization have reported an independent system of harvesting death-row inmates' organs, and even cases of the prospect of organ harvesting playing a role in the determination of capital punishment. Without any legal procedures, Falun Gong practitioners are taken to the Sujiatun death camp without anyone's knowledge. They are in complete isolation. Their bodies are cremated after their organs are harvested.

The operation of the Sujiatun death camp started as early as 2001, reaching its peak in 2002. Near a hospital in Sujiatun, the death camp facility is underground because it was built upon the existing infrastructure of an aerial defense facility. It has at least one exit located at the back of the hospital. From above the ground, one cannot identify anything unusual about the death camp. It is isolated and guarded with a high-level of security. It has its own supply system, including underground stores.

A large number of Falun Gong practitioners have been secretly abducted to and imprisoned in the death camp. According to a witness, it is "too horrible to watch." Because these are not regular death row inmates with predetermined execution times, the timing of the organ harvesting is determined by when they are needed by the hospital. The organ harvesting operation is conducted on living Falun Gong practitioners. Because the process is extremely brutal, a majority of the medical professionals involved in the organ harvesting have suffered severe psychological trauma. Some common symptoms they share include insomnia and nightmares. Some people have resorted to prostitutes to help relieve the psychological pressure. Certain individuals have even committed suicide because of the extreme psychological pressure.

Providing organs from living human beings also involve the organ recipients, the military and local hospitals carrying out the organ transplants, and other supporting functions. Although the Chinese Communist authorities and staff members involved keep it a top secret, a lot of people have learned some information about the death camp. Many high-level Chinese Communist government officials in Liaoning Province and Shenyang City, especially those at management levels in the health bureaus, know about and have collaborated in this operation. The establishment and operation of the death camp has been masterminded at top levels of the Chinese Communist Party.

Because the investigation is still ongoing, we will not disclose our reference materials in order to protect the information sources and the channels of obtaining information.

World Organization to Investigate the Persecution of Falun Gong (WOIPFG)

by Jana Thu Mar 16, 2006 09:45

The Chinese communist regime is not natural to China. It was imposed on the Chinese people from Russia and a few Chinese people who had power on their minds took up the Russian communists help. So I agree with the fact that the Chinese people are not a cruel nation. But under the last 80 years of communist rule they are a very frightened suppressed people. The communist regime in the last 80 years has killed 80 million of its own people see http://ninecommentaries.com/ for all the grisly details and the best historical account of the rise and imminent fall of the communist regime. With 9 million already resigned from the communist regime the flailing regime is on its last legs which is why so many Chinese people are talking, quitting, defecting and exposing what really goes on in China under a fascist communist so called reformed brutal evil specter.
The Chinese regime is eradicating Falun Gong because they are afraid of us. Falun Gong practitioners are not afraid of the communist regime and are not willing to commit crimes and hurt other people because they tell us to . The teachings of Falun Gong have set our minds and hearts free from living in terror. So there fore the communist regime cannot subvert convert or transform us in any way. Just like the Christians who were thrown to the lions for not giving up their faith once again history repeats itself and massive persecution takes place because despotic leader fear losing power. The fear has become a reality but not because Falun Gong has planned it this way.
What country would not benefit from having 100 million truthful compassionate and tolerant people in their country. Each business would flourish, crime would drop, peace and harmony would be the norm. But instead the regime is so corrupt and so evil and inhumane it could not bear the light of goodness showing them up.
Their persecution has failed, Falun Gong are stronger today than in 1999 when the persecution began. And this persecution is what has caused their downfall.
Falun Gong practitioners do not aspire to politics or want to run any country. But we will use every legal avenue to expose the persecution of Falun Gong in non violent peaceful ways and continue to legally and honestly expose the communist regime exactly for what it is. This is why Falun Gong will exist long after the communist regime falls. Just like Christianity , Buddhism etc. Falun Gong is here to stay.
We do not kill or commit suicide -the self immolation incidents/ suicides in Tiananmen Square in 2001 were a hoax set up by the propaganda dept. of the Communist regime to incite hatred against Falun Gong in China. And it very nearly worked. But now more and more people in China have woken up that Falun Gong is good and they are remembering that their culture was not based on murder deception and persecution. They are waking up, their minds are becoming free again and they people of china want a return to their rich culture and relationship with their Gods, Dao and Buddha’s and all this will happen because of the Truth Compassion and Forbearance of Falun Gong.

by t beckett - apb Thu Mar 16, 2006 04:48 djerak at aol dot com pants thankyou 3

maybe similar shenanigans in western hospitals between unscrupilous doctors and patients from impoverished sections of the community. Or used as food for aliens.

by AML Wed Mar 15, 2006 11:56

I am sorry that I have to use such a direct way to speak such a fact, Falun Gong practitioners are killed for their organs, which are then sent to medical facilities. Currently, the organ business is a very profitable one in China.

Many patients that have died on operating tables have had their organs taken away. No one investigates it. Even doctors are involved in this trade. They cannot find enough bodies through executions, and no one is more readily available than practitioners to do this business.

by Tommy Donnellan - Cosantoiri Siochana Tue Mar 14, 2006 23:36

genocide and murder, you seem to wilfully and ignorantly miss the point ?????.

by Browser Tue Mar 14, 2006 14:35

This is just copied and pasted from:
http://www.clearharmony.net/articles/200603/31867.html

How about an original article? I thought that was what indymedia wanted.

by Gerald O'Connor - Falun Dafa Information Centre Tue Mar 14, 2006 12:34

Independent reports on Chinese Human organ harvesting, British Telegraph, AP ect.

This seems to be the Chinese Communists regimes "Final Solution" to Falun Gong. The most important thing is not that they are harvesting organs it is that they are implementing genocide on a group of people because of what they believe. They are trying to eracate Falun Gong and then sell their organs.

Third party reports 0.06 Mb