Debunking the "human shields" propaganda

by gordi Fri Aug 04, 2006 20:58

Yea, well, that's the man who also claims that Palestinians SHOULD bomb themselves among
civilians.
http://www.honestreporting.com/articles/45884734/critiq...y.asp

by Phuq Hedd Fri Aug 04, 2006 21:08

As to whether or not he's correct in asserting that:
1) IDF bombings are NOT carefully targetted but are rather indiscriminate bombings of civilian areas
2) Hezbullah rocket attacks are (at least some) not randomly fired into Israeli civilian populations but instead are targetted at IDF/military targets
3) The above verifiable info (supported as to #1 by Human Rights Watch) is being ignored by the majority of mainstream media who repeat the converse as though they were true
4) Military censorship of journalists in Israel is NEVER mentioned by those news sources e.g. BBC, CNN when "reporting live"

Argue against the concepts, not against the man. Or in Indymedia.ie parlance "play the ball, not the player". Thanks.

by gordi Sun Aug 06, 2006 09:14

1. IDF did what no army in history did, which is telling civillians beforehand where there will be bombings, and that they should flee.
2. Surprisingly, maybe 2 soldiers were killed from Hizballa's Katiushas inside Israel. They were peobably at home, the poor souls. All the others were civillians. Half of them, by the way, are not Jews.
Hizballa AIMS at civillians. They hit hospitals twice.
4. Belive it or not, currently public view in Israel as regarding the war is that the Israeli media is not cenzored enough, since it shows everything, including things that help Hizballa. 'Censorship' aquires mainly for not reporting victims before the family knows.

by Phuq Hedd Sun Aug 06, 2006 14:10

Gordi, a report from a country where censorship does exist should tell us that the report is censored. Also, it's far from clear that Hizbullah are deliberately targetting civilians or that they are using the "human shields" tactic.

1. IDF did what no army in history did, which is telling civillians beforehand where there will be bombings, and that they should flee.
Informing someone before you murder them that you intend to murder them if they stay is perhaps not as bad as just murdering them. (Oh, the fine points we weigh in our moral scales). However, the bombing of civilians is nevertheless a war crime and the 1923 Hague Convention Arts. #22,23 make this clear. It could be argued that the Luftwaffe made it quite clear that they were going to bomb Britain during the war and that the British population should have fled, or that the IRA made its intention to bomb Britain clear and the population should have fled. Both were acts of war committed upon non-combatant civilians. So, too is the Israeli assault on Lebanon.

2. Surprisingly, maybe 2 soldiers were killed from Hizballa's Katiushas inside Israel. They were peobably at home, the poor souls. All the others were civillians. Half of them, by the way, are not Jews.
"Probably". According to you without any reference to a verifiable source. I don't see why you'd want to emphasise that half the people murdered by Hizbullah rockets weren't Jews? It would appear to show that Cook's assertion that Hizbullah are not just trying to kill Jewish civilians but are instead trying to hit Israeli military targets which are hidden in the civilian population (exactly what the media says about Hizbullah).

Hizballa AIMS at civillians. They hit hospitals twice.
You have no proof that Hizbullah deliberately targets civilians. They explicitly deny it. The IDF on the other hand have explicitly announced their intention of targetting civilians, as you admit in #1. W.r.t. hitting hospitals ... well if Israelis blend their military installations in among civilian facilities then is it any wonder that the civilian infrastructure is damaged? It's exactly the same argument advanced about the supposed Hizbullah "human shields" tactic. Cook, again in the article (you really should read it instead of repeating pre-set "points"), says that at least one widely reported such incident is better explained by the fact that there's a well-known (but not reported due to censorship) military base nearby.

4. Belive it or not, currently public view in Israel as regarding the war is that the Israeli media is not cenzored enough, since it shows everything, including things that help Hizballa. 'Censorship' aquires mainly for not reporting victims before the family knows.
How would you know that the media "shows everything" if it's censored? Your claim is also in direct contradiction of the fact that there ARE censorship rules in place in Israel.

RTE, BBC, CNN etc should all cary a warning bar at the bottom of the screen which says "Due to Israeli censorship we cannot be sure if this report is accurate in any way"

At any rate, regardless of how immoral Hizbullah are, it's pretty clear that Israel is committing yet another war crime.

by Phuq Hedd Sun Aug 06, 2006 14:20

Interesting Danny Schechter piece about how the Israeli consulate in the USA is using the internet to spread its propaganda and recruiting volunteers to do this.

"The Media War In The Middle East Targets The Truth"

by CG Mon Aug 07, 2006 02:04

"1. IDF did what no army in history did, which is telling civillians beforehand where there will be bombings, and that they should flee."

Then they bomb them as they try to flee. Gotta love that wacky Israeli military!

by The proof Mon Aug 07, 2006 11:42

The fact is

Hizbollah deliberately target civilians

If Israel deliberately targeted civilians in Lebanon, there would be noone left alive in Lebanon

Simple fact.

by Jimmy From Ballygomartin Mon Aug 07, 2006 12:25

Why do we refer to the Israeli military as the Israeli Defense Force (the IDF) when they have attached all their neighbours at least once? Surely they should be referred to as the Isreali Attack Force?

by Grigor Tue Aug 08, 2006 01:53

Katyusha multiple rocket launchers are a type of rocket artillery built and fielded by the Soviet Union beginning in the Second World War. They are multiple rocket launchers able to deliver a devastating amount of explosives to an AREA target in a short period of time, although with LOW ACCURACY, and then take a relatively long period of time to reload.

Compared to other types of artillery, they are fragile but inexpensive. Katyushas of World War Two, the first self-propelled artillery mass-produced by the Soviet Union, were usually mounted on trucks.

Katyusha weapons of World War Two included the BM-13, light BM-8, and heavy BM-31. Today, the nickname is also applied to newer truck-mounted Soviet multiple rocket launchers—notably the very common BM-21—and their derivatives worldwide.

It can also refer to Katyusha artillery rockets launched individually using man-portable launchers, a mode of attack sometimes used in guerrilla warfare, military harassing fire, or attacks against POPULATION, for example by the National Front for the Liberation of Vietnam, HEZBOLLAH, the Iraqi insurgency, and the Taliban.

by blaise Tue Aug 08, 2006 02:09

listen up Proof head - Israel does and has always targeted civilians. It wants all the young men's legs cut off or dead period. It is their policy to kill 100 every time one of theirs gets it and that is normally after they have killed the opposition first. They have a concentration camp called Gaza and have detained 30 heads of state (yes the Hamas government is a democratically elected government, imbicile) and the world sits by idly as they perform their heroic attacks on the prisioners of Gaza on a nightly basis. Wake up and get that spinny Israeli prograganda out of your brain. Nobody with a brain buys it. Sure you can sell to the idiots who know little about Israel's murderous past. Believe me, Saddam Hussein is on trial for far less barbery than the Israeli government heads have committed over the years. Go spin your bullshit on people who haven't a clue. The facts are not on your side. You are asking for 1 UN resolution to be met - that being the disarmament of Hizbulla, while your Israeli renegades have refused to honour 49 resolutions from the UN. The latest news over the wire has Israeli forces stating they will bomb UN staff if they mend any of the bridges to convey necessary medical supplies while their unmanned drones wreak havoc throughout the land. How heroic - these venemous Jewish butchers. Israel and the United States are the real terrorists. All the others are resistance to terror. None of this will ever end until you realize that and that's not very likely to happen, given the dimented logic of those 2 countries.

by Pat Tue Aug 08, 2006 02:18

lad, you a Celtic Wolf perhaps?

by Not a Useful Idiot Tue Aug 08, 2006 05:06

"Hizbollah deliberately target civilians

If Israel deliberately targeted civilians in Lebanon, there would be noone left alive in Lebanon"

That's a fact Jack.

by blaise Tue Aug 08, 2006 06:28

sounds like you're big on having the last word useless - but Israel has a long history of telling the world it does not target civilians while consistently shelling them. Should we all be thankful that that have only just ruined the entire infrastructure of Lebanon, displaced a million people in the country, and killed and maimed hundreds of women and children. Thank you great big bully wing of the United States for not unleasing the full arsenal which the United States has supplied to you over the last 50 plus years. Bullies always get their comeuppence and Israel and the United States will get it one day - just like the way they gave it out - cowaring behind their high tech drones - all hundred thousands of them against the a few men and their old world artillery - still they hold up pretty good - hardly a fair fight - but instilling enough hatred at the same time to fuel generations of hate and retribution. You short term goals may be realized - big bullies - but the long goal will always elude you and your terrorists cells - the Mossad and the FBI.

by gordi Tue Aug 08, 2006 10:42

You don't really know what Saddam Hussein did, do you?

by Phuq Hedd Tue Aug 08, 2006 15:46

listen up Proof head - Israel does and has always targeted civilians. It wants all the young men's legs cut off or dead period

That is a very questionable statement. Israel has committed some war crimes in the past (specifically Ariel Sharon was found guilty by an Israeli commisson for his involvement in this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_and_Shatila_massacre and a future Lebanese prime-minister also). However, what this shows is that there is a significant body of revulsion among the Israeli public at the war-crimes of the Zionists. As far as I'm aware there is NO evidence that Israel (if it makes sense to speak of a whole country of disparate people wanting anything) wants "the young men's legs cut off". You appear to be very keen to attack Israel as a whole and also to drag in the religion of some Israelis (Judaism) later on in your posts. I think Pat may be right about your affiliations. In any event, I want to make it clear that although I condemn Israel's actions in the present and many of the past I do not wished to be associated with apparent anti-Semites like yourself. As far as I'm concerned your lumping of people together into a single category and vehemence makes you very like those guilty of the war-crimes we're criticising.

by G. Orwell Tue Aug 08, 2006 17:31

Hezzbollah targeted Chinese peacekeepers in Lebanon. Where are the "Hypocriticals" now........... ahh I see it O.K. when the Hezz stonk UN peacekeepers

by blaise Wed Aug 09, 2006 02:42

hey Phug face - nobody said anything about an entire country - I was speaking of the murderous - war criminal - the government of Israel - whose neck has been saved from being a certified war criminal so many times by the giant United States' veto at the U.N. Odd that many americans think that the U.N. is useless when they actually control it while refusing to pay their debt to it. On the breaking and cutting off of legs perhaps you forget or were born after that famous video which caught the Israeli soldiers taking young Palestinian boys out to the fields to smash their legs to bits. Wake up. The entire thinking world - the world which doesn't buy into the American Israeli bullshit - knows that these 2 contries are nothing but war mongering, greedy, racist pricks with their own agenda.

Fact. Israel - with the tacit backing of the United States - invaded Lebanon in 1982 and stayed for 18 years occupying it before being driven mostly off their land (not entirely) by the Hizbullah - freedom fighters (that's right - a real resistance group protecting their country and looking after the poor which they still do even in these horrible times). The pigs (that is the Israel government) invaded Lebannon a month ago - wrecking destruction and death and disease on their neighbour, they claim, because 2 of their soldiers were kidnapped (captured is more accurate). Where is the mention of the 10,000 Lebanese prisoners in their dungeons and the Palestian people they murder on a daily basis, lock up without warrant on a daily basis, heads of state (yes Hamas is a real democratically elected goverment) which they arrest without explanation on a daily basis.

This is ethnic cleansing whether you like it or not - just as they are continually doing to the Palestinians. In fact, a moment ago they just bombed a Palestinian refugee camp near Beirut. Concentration camp, Gaza, refugee camp - all the same. This government is no different than Hitlers and you ought to be ashamed for backing them up.

By the way Phughead - my niece is Jewish and I have Jewish friends - none of who think I am anti Semite - just you. Is that some cosy little put down you harbour in your back pocket when you want to avoid the truth. The Irish people don't buy that shit. Face the facts. You are backing a monster - a pair of monsters actually. Also on the Sharon issue - that masacre he orchestrated which you mentioned was not his only barberous moment. He also slaughtered 69 women and children to avenge the death of 1 Israeli women - sounds like a fair exchange?

by Paul R - . Wed Aug 09, 2006 15:59

Blaise,

Some of above posts are only there to muddy the waters. Hopefully their ideology will not win out in end

Plenty of articles on above but this one is better than most

http://jewsagainstzionism.blogspot.com/2005_09_01_jewsa...03760

by Topper Wed Aug 09, 2006 17:31

"Yea, well, that's the man who also claims that Palestinians SHOULD bomb themselves among
civilians."

No, Gordi, that would be what we call a "lie". The article you put up a link to quoted Cook as saying that suicide bombings were immoral, but Palestinians considered them to be the only way of getting the world's attention. So how, exactly, does calling something "immoral" constitute enthusiastic support?

He also said that if there had been more Israelis willing to pressurise their government into giving real independence and justice to the Palestinians, there would be little or no violence. Seeing as Hamas was non-existent during the first intifada, when the Palestinian resistance was dominated by secular nationalist and socialist forces, he's almost certainly right.

Not surprising a hysterical right-wing website should set out to demonise someone for telling the truth about the Middle East, but don't expect people to be convinced by their intolerant shrieking. The Counterpunch article was very useful too.

by A. Cynic Wed Aug 09, 2006 20:12

So much for that.....