Take Part in ARAN's 'Stop Circus Suffering in Ireland' Nationwide Week of Action

by Ciara Roche Tue Sep 04, 2007 11:42 ciarams1 at hotmail dot com

Well done to Aran, hope to see you all there on the 4th. Circuses containing exotic animal acts are an outmoded form of entertainment, why would anyone want to see the spectacle of a big cat jumping through hoops unless they suffer from extreme ignorance.

by owen Tue Sep 04, 2007 22:16

Whats the point in posting a comment if you keep removing them?

by circus fan - circus fans of ireland Tue Sep 04, 2007 23:17

did anyone ask the children what did they enjoy most when they were at a circus??? THEY WOULD SAY THE ANIMALS,
their young children who love getting their photograph taken, i bet they forgot what it was about the week after,

by Gloria Wed Sep 05, 2007 00:44

"did anyone ask the children what did they enjoy most when they were at a circus??? THEY WOULD SAY THE ANIMALS,
their young children who love getting their photograph taken, i bet they forgot what it was about the week after, "

I remember being brought to circus when I was a child. It was immediately apparent to me that the big cats, I believe they were tigers, were performing their tricks under duress. The signs of stress in a big cat are quite similar to those of a smaller size, ears flattened and tails moving rapidly. I distinctly remember the coats of the big cats being lack lustre and how their bones showed. But what really got me was the way they jumped through the hoops - these animals are by nature proud and independent - it was quite sickening to watch the ringmaster crack his whip as they did it. There was something so sad and defeated in these animals' movements. It made an impression on me and convinced me that big animals in circuses are so very wrong. You said that the kids like watching the animals in circuses, I can tell you that I never did, the sight sickened me. I will never ever bring my son to watch animals being tortured - its tantamount to child abuse. I am happy to report that in my friends child's primary school, not one of the parents brought the kids to the circus when it came to Dublin last November because it contained animals. They were happy to go to the Chinese State circus though, this was real entertainment and was actually interesting as it had people performing.

by re gloria Wed Sep 05, 2007 01:27

i feel sorry for you, you as a child could see all that? when i was a child i saw the MAGIC, FELT THE EXCITMENT OF A TOURING CIRCUS IN TOWN, thats what childhood is all about, i know a lot of people on the irish circus and i see how their animals are treated,"WITH KINDNESS" what about all the animals that get illtreated by scum bags all around the country,where are you lot? i have stopped kids countless times hurting animals, how can you hide a child from that, when DOGs,CATS, HORSES BEING ILLTREATED, come on wake up and smell the coffee, and yet you would support a british circus company than home grown, lovely! IT MAKES ME SO PROUD TO BE IRISH,

by Gloria Wed Sep 05, 2007 02:08 lovebabykay1000 at hotmail dot com

"FELT THE EXCITMENT OF A TOURING CIRCUS IN TOWN, thats what childhood is all about"

if that was the high point of your childhood, you deserve pity.

"i know a lot of people on the irish circus and i see how their animals are treated,"WITH KINDNESS""

http://www.captiveanimals.org/circuses/circus.htm

Would the above be an example of the kindness meted out to animals in circuses? No doubt you will say that this websight is biased, but can you explain the videos/pictures of elephants being beaten and "disciplined"?

Only an idiot would still claim that animals are treated "kindly" by circuses.

"what about all the animals that get illtreated by scum bags all around the country,where are you lot? i have stopped kids countless times hurting animals, how can you hide a child from that, when DOGs,CATS, HORSES BEING ILLTREATED, come on wake up and smell the coffee, and yet you would support a british circus company than home grown, lovely! "

I too stop animal cruelty where I see it, be it against cats dogs, humans. If you support animal circuses I very much doubt your claim to this effect.

If you have a modicum of empathy for animals, you would desist in your support for their torture.
Good night.

by seamus Wed Sep 05, 2007 10:16

i see the supporters of animal circuses have joined this discussion a bit late. they never were the brightest sparks around. take a look at this site http://www.irishcircuses.org/ if you want to see what really goes on in irish circuses.
and what about that poor elephant who died at an irish circus a few weeks ago? and the rhino and hippo who were brought in from italy last year and before? and the elephant who was sent off to germany to avoid the vet? and the elephants who fell in a ditch?
fossetts did a great show at the electric picnic - with no animals. this is the future of circus not the crummy old shows put on by courtneys and scholls

by johnny21 Wed Sep 05, 2007 10:19

here we go again why was my last comment removed like i said ye dont know what ye are talking about i worked for a irish circus for 3 years the animals had the best of care even today i know someone on a show that gets up at 6 am every day of the week to take care of there animals if ye have a problem with one show take it up with them dont paint every one with the same brush

johnny st john

by circus fan Wed Sep 05, 2007 10:26

that elephant was on a circus run by a german family, it`s not irish owned, so dont paint them all with the one brush, and yes FOSSETTS CIRCUS 2007 IS SPECTACULAR, SO IS TOM DUFFYS CIRCUS, WITH THEIR ANIMALS,

by seamus Wed Sep 05, 2007 12:06

re circus elephant
author by circus fan
"that elephant was on a circus run by a german family, it`s not irish owned, so dont paint them all with the one brush"

so what if its not Irish owned the scholls have been in ireland for years. what makes them different from any other circus in ireland? does it not count when 2 people were killed by a circus truck owned by an irish family, elephants fell in a ditch at an irish owned circus, a worker was almost killed by an elephant at an irish owned circus and kids were bitten by a monkey at an irish owned circus?

who cares if a circus is owned by an irish family or not? they can call themselves sydney, vegas, canadian dreamland, royal russian, or paddys shamrock for all i care but animals still shouldnt be used and as a circus fan i will only go to shows without animals

by Cataldy Wed Sep 05, 2007 12:21

Well said Seamus. It does make me wonder why these guys keep changing their names. The latest change I know of is circus Sydney changing to the Canadian State Circus Dreamland. Why do they do this? Could it have anything to do with the fact that their reputation preceeds them everywhere they go and that they need to trick people into thinking they are a totally different outfit in order to get any custom?

by iosaf Wed Sep 05, 2007 12:56

Without even going near the hallowed & indispensible tool of any indymedia ireland contributor that is the advanced search engine - I can remember a few threads over the years where the animal rights people have clashed with the animal circus employees. As a child I enjoyed & now as an adult realise was very priveleged to enjoy the acquaintance of children of a number of the Irish state's Warsaw Pact & Peoples' republic of Chinese contact group. This acquaintance meant I got Lenin and Mao badges long before the Berlin wall fell and had tasted sturgeon eggs long before Tesco had sold lumpfish caviar to the average Green or Labour party voter of these halcyon days we all delight to find ourselves a living. It also meant that whilst others of my age group were happy often deliriously so to be taken to the local county match or dare I quip the local mcdonalds for a birthday treat - I got to see the state circuses of the former USSR and that of the still alive, hacking and coughing on the lead fumes PRC for next to nothing. The circus which was led by Oleg Popov and his wife might very well be credited with the difusion of acrobatic and contortionist performance arts in Europe & also the decisions not to transport & thus use animal acts as so do the various PRC circuses. The Circus has a rich history and many familiar with it might argue the roots of such egalitarian & essential to anarchist social activities as the trapeze, sumersaults, juggling and rope acts are to be found in Maghrebi or southern European travelling group traditions who also ensured their income by displaying mobile zoos or menageries of exotic animals and freaky looking handicapped people. But I'm not going to argue the roots. I'd just like people to think that as much human suffering is still to be found globally in the training and formation of now burgeouning non-animal circus groups as human difference & celebrity status might be found in the cirque soleil or jim rose freak show . It's mostly a question of perspective and information. One might argue a child trained from three years of age to levels of contortional ability unknown beyond the castrated students of master yogi has been lucky to be offered a life in a soceity which counts female infanticide amongst its dark secrets. Another might argue that any pet, be it dog or cat, tiger or iguana suffers when displayed to strangers & not allowed establish a "safe zone" or reliable territorial familiarity. I've known people involved in animal welfare and indeed animal circus, they were counted amongst the most sincere and knowledgeable people on animals I've ever met. Likewise I know people in non-animal circuses and have even wrote a reference to a circus school for few years back for someone with little in the way of prospects but a lot in the way of inate ability to judge gravity in moving objects including her own body. She's with the cirque soleil now, whilst someone else I knew found her lack of ligaments and curious ability to lick her own eyelids didn't make the grade of freakishness even in reptilian make-up and costume to pass the audition to the Jim Rose .

But to the point of this recurrent thread - let's be practical for once. The demand for animal acts in circuses has declined since the globalisation of National Geographic inspired nature TV documentaries, the opening of Safari parks and the remoulding of childrens' delight from exotic animals to expensive electronic gadgetry. Most who practise circus arts in the West are now either in or very closely affiliated to the plethora of alternative and anarchist lifestyle groups. Promoting their performance arts & ensuring that they are allowed and facilitated in holding suitable meeting spaces to teach and rehearse is a plus+plus for all of us. the more demand for non-human circus means less demand for animal circus It is a mistake, often made by most, that to declare oneself "anti-" something is enough to win mass support. One ought also to declare oneself "pro-" something else. So I for one, am pro+ human performance acts, allowed and facilitated to meet in places such as social centres or squats - and am completely pro+ the use of said arts ( I'm being pompous clown ) in both our educational institutes and health facilities to stop our kiddies going freakishly obese and keep our dying smiling in the face of decreptitude. Yep - there are good circuses and bad circuses. I'd suggest if you picket bad circuses you do some circus performance things for free outside......... if you can juggle :-)

by circus boy 123 Wed Sep 05, 2007 15:18

ok now im getting wound up because you have proven my point , take a look both my comments have been removed why because there is no argument against them they left up my first one because they questioned it and when i answerd them both were taken down because they have no reply , thats sad, your all pathetic you have no idea what you are talking about and if you had two braincells to rub together they would probably have to introduce eachother .

now with that outta the way your doing it again putting all circuses in the same basket and blaming everyone for one persons mistake , hey remember juventus match fixing couple of years ago?? SHIT QUICK!!! BAN FOOTBALL EVERYONES MATCH FIXING ITS ALL FIXED JUVENTUS DID IT SO EVERY TEAM IN THE WORLD MUST BE AT IT ASWEL AHHHHHH!!!!!!.........i dont think so, so why is it like that with circus probably because the clown threw water on you when you were a kid and you didnt like it so now your holding a grudge. you have no idea what you are talking about. if you did then you would comeback with an answer worth reading ( made myself laugh there ) instead of just deleting posts that make you look bad.

once again i admit SOME SOME SOME SOME ...SOME! to stress it enough,,circuses are not fit to look after animals but does that mean ban all shows even those that are ? realese them to the wild where we ( humans) and taking over the world and making their " habitat " smaller and smaller . or would you just prefer to see a tiger shot ?? most of you will have leather jackets and or shoes not to mention the nice handbag you bought your wife last month.

now watch this post go aswel

by xxx Wed Sep 05, 2007 15:23

Im not really into having arguments on public forums because if think it is very degrading to everyone involved, dunno if this will cause arguments but here it goes, here is my opinion:
the word terrorist has been used, terrorist in my opinion is a very strong word but, in one of the pictures there are a group of very young children protesting against animals in circus, i presume in the days or weeks before this picture was taking a person from an animal rights organisation went into these childrens school and told them that animals are beaten and have a terrible life in the circus, hence making them join the organisations protest to make up the numbers. to me, this is very similar to children as young as 5 and 6 being given guns and thrown out on to the front line in Iraq. children cant think for themselves, i have no problem with peoples opinions but it is wrong to force them upon others espiciayl upon young children . maybe terrorist is not such a strong word after all.

I am not a circus fan, but i do bring my family to every circus that comes because my children wife and i always enjoy the day out, duffys and fossetts have always been to best circuses, i think fossetts have fawltered in the last few years because of the lack of animal content.

I attended duffyd circus on their first show in dublin it was full and the current and former lord mayor of dublin attended. The gasps of excitment echoed around the big tent from the children and adults alike when the tigers walked into the arena.
I would have guessed about 300 people went into the zoo after the show.

One more thing, next time i bring my young children to a circus and some of your people are protesting id apriciate if you didnt call me a b****rd like you did when i went again on the saturday, voice your opinion BUT DO NOT FORCE IT ON ME

by Ciara Roche Wed Sep 05, 2007 18:05 ciarams1 at hotmail dot com

perhaps you should educate yourself on the manner in which the animals are trained to perform for you and your family's amusement. Take particular note of the elephant training methods.

http://www.circuses.com/ringling.asp

Here are some facts about circuses.

http://www.idausa.org/facts/circusfacts.html

I personally have attended protests against circuses, and have never witnessed anyone calling any patrons being called names? Actually I have seen some open minded parents there with their families who having been informed about the conditions the animals are kept in, training methods etc, decided not to subject their kids to such a spectacle.

I should also add that circuses are a health hazard, for patrons as well as staff. Frustrated elephants and big cats have been known to go on rampages killing and injuring bystanders. This is a direct response to their being forced into living a life which goes against all of their natural instincts to mate, roam, exercise behavior peculiar to their species and nurture their young. Even if I did enjoy the sight of animals being tortured I wouldn't go to a circus with my child for this reason and I would suggest to anyone considering bring their children to circuses to consider this when making a decision.

by circus boy 123 Wed Sep 05, 2007 19:24

not all shows beat animals !! that link is of ringling bros in england!!! its nothing to do with the shows over here not all shows beat animals can i please have a response to that because i have said it countless times and everyone has ignored it .

and as far as circus being dangerous to your family thats just dumb you can walk out your front door and get hit by a car sooner than get run over by an elephant in a circus your kids are probably gonna play football when they are older what if they break a leg? that will happen before a side pole falls on your head , what if you wanna go to another country you gonna fly? what if the plane crashes you going by boat what happens if s fire sets these things are more common than public getting hurt while attending a circus as for the staff i have worked in this business all my life and have been hurt countless times ( nothing serious) thats the job every job has its risks, if your a cop you may get shot! but you say circus is dangerous

by Catlady Wed Sep 05, 2007 23:09

The fact remains that a tiger was not designed to live in a small cage nor an elephant to spend most of it's time confined to a small area or chained by their feet. These animals ought to be given the freedom to live a natural life and should not be exploited by anyone for money, entertainment or anything else. The use and abuse of sentient living creatures in circuses is morally wrong and ethically unjustifiable.

by circus boy 123 Wed Sep 05, 2007 23:15

catlady would you prefer a tiger in a circus with three meals a day an exercise cage big enough to run around in when they want no stress and a long life or in the wild with constant threat of other animals taking their territory stress can kill any animal tigers especially also the high risk of being shot in the wild which would you prefer??

by Circo - Circolandia Thu Sep 06, 2007 00:37

Can I ask, how man of the protesters have ever been to an animal Circus in their lives?
Did the animals seem malnourished or badly groomed? NO..............

Please reply, I would like to know your views

by Ciara Thu Sep 06, 2007 01:01 ciarams1 at hotmail dot com

and the animals seemed sad, badly groomed, thin. The only ones that looked like they were enjoying themselves were the dogs! Granted this was many years ago, but it sickened me as it was clear that the tigers were jumping through hoops under severe duress. Watching the elephant perform gave me the feeling I was looking at a conquered and demeaned giant. It was not nice. At the time I had no concept of animal rights although I was fully aware of their sentient nature having grown up with pet dogs, cats and with a Granny in the country with a menagerie.

by Catlady Thu Sep 06, 2007 13:18

Circus boy, I would wholeheartedly prefer any animal, including tigers, to be left in their natural habitats. To suggest they are better off living in cages simply because they do not have to do what comes naturally to them is quite frankly ridiculous. Nature has designed these animals to roam freely, to hunt (in the case of tigers) and to defend their territory, not to live in cramped conditions, to be forced to perform stupid tricks or to be unable to act on any of their most basic instincts. Are you truly suggesting that circus owners have somehow managed to better millions of years of evolution and the design of mother nature??? Poaching is of course a problem but circuses are, as far as I am aware, not involved in any measures to reduce this and it is an entirely different issue. If life in confinement is so wonderful for all of these animals, please explain why elephants in captivity have such shortened life spans compared to their wild relatives?

I'll put it to you this way - would YOU prefer to live in a cage with, as you say, enough room to "run around in", being fed three times a day, whilst never ever being able to live your life the way you were designed to or to enjoy any of the many pleasures which come with freedom? If you say yes, you should perhaps find a way to get yourself incarcerated in one of our prisons, because that is exactly what it amounts to. Stress is part of the life of all animals, human and non-human, but for you to suggest that being locked up for your entire life is anything but an unnaturally stressful and unpleasant situation to find yourself in, is ridiculous in the extreme. That's why it is used as a punishment for criminals. Even domestic cats enjoy more freedom than these WILD animals, and I can assure you that it causes them extreme stress to be confined indoors due to illness etc. In certain cases that stress can seriously hamper recovery and a caring owner will weigh up the pros and cons of such a confinement in consultation with their vet in order to serve the best interests of the animal. I can give precise details of one such case if you wish.

Circo, I too have been to animal circuses, as have all of the protestors I know. I have also been "backstage" on numerous occassions to see the conditions the animals are kept in. The most recent time was at a circus camped on a GAA pitch last Summer in Carlow. I have seen unkempt skinny horses standing dejectedly in tiny pens far too small to offer them any opportunity to excercise, I have seen an elephant forced to perform with a deformed foot which shocked a veterinary expert, I have seen tigers weave at the bars of tiny beastwagons, I have seen dogs kept on short chains, etc etc etc. In short, yes we have been there, yes we have seen what goes on BEHIND the scenes - the aspects the circus like to keep hidden from the general public.

Sabwatch, here are a few examples of people being hurt by circus animals driven to distraction by the frustrating nature of their existence, all in Ireland, various media sources including RTE and the Irish independent:

http://www.rte.ie/news/2005/0626/waterford.html
http://www.irishcircuses.org/2007/boss_the_circus_dog.html
http://www.irishcircuses.org/2006/safety_outrage.html
http://www.irishcircuses.org/2005/children_bitten.html
http://www.irishcircuses.org/2004/stray_camels.html

For a few concrete examples of the cruelty involved:

http://www.irishcircuses.org/2006/monkey_found.html
http://www.irishcircuses.org/2006/elephants_root.html
http://www.irishcircuses.org/2007/elephant_dies.html
http://www.irishcircuses.org/2006/gardai_investigate.html
http://www.irishcircuses.org/2006/jumbo_holdup.html
http://www.irishcircuses.org/2006/circus_trip.html

And finally for some examples of circuses generaly attitude twoards members of the public:

http://www.irishcircuses.org/2006/two_sentenced.html
http://www.irishcircuses.org/2006/protester_attacked.html
http://www.irishcircuses.org/2006/activist_attacked.html

And yes Sabwatch, I sourced them from irishcircuses.org, but for anyone who is not quite so blinkered and fanatical as you, please not that all of the articles are from national media sources originally. It was just quicker for me to get them all from the one place. I have work to do.

by circus boy 123 Thu Sep 06, 2007 14:01

like i said i dont doubt that certain circus dont treat animals as they should, i keep repeating this , but does that mean all circus that do should be stopped aswel?

in the wild tigers in particular do not ( on average ) live as long as they would in zoos or circuses because of the stress of territory battles and often scarce supply of food , and of course the threat of poachers which will never stop. the ciruses that properly care for their animals create a stress free zone for them and they inturn live longer and happier because of this.

to my knolledge ( i may be wrong ) circuses are not attempting to stop poaching but that does not make it a seperate issue.

i am not going to back down as i believe you are wrong and i am right , you are not going to back down because you believe you are right and i am wrong its like religon in that sense , you will argue everything i say and i will be ale to argue everything you say at the end of the day this will not stop, there will always be "animals in circus protesters" and there will always be animal circuses it will never stop, as will we never stop the activist thats life.

i believe if a circus properly cares for the animals under its care then they shoud be left alone
animals are not safe in the wild and i promise you if all tigers in the world were released into the wild they would be extinct in 50-100 years and this saddens me as i never want this to happen, i love waking up every morning to see these beautiful animlas, to care for them, look after them and ensure their happines , this for me is priority in my everyday life.

not all circuses treat animals poorly and i would do everything in my power to prevent animal cruelty but people need to stop putting the circuses all together and seperate the good from the bad.

nobody ever protests about the rodeo why are they so much better ?

by Ciara Thu Sep 06, 2007 19:09 ciarams1 at hotmail dot com

"like i said i dont doubt that certain circus dont treat animals as they should, i keep repeating this , but does that mean all circus that do should be stopped aswel?"

People who are against circuses with animal acts would argue that even with the best will in the world, it is quite impossible to provide an adequate standard of living to wild animals such as big cats and elephants etc as circuses tour, keep animals in confined spaces and force them to perform tricks. )(This is with the best will in the world though).

"the ciruses that properly care for their animals create a stress free zone for them and they inturn live longer and happier because of this."

Longer and happier than in the wild? Sorry but I very much doubt that a tiger, used to hunting, roaming, mating and taking care of its young if it is a tigress, would be happier being kept in a cage in the back of a van, being brought out to jump through hoops each evening.

Which brings me to my next point. Circusboy, I take it from your last post that you are in charge of animals in a circus, tigers as you claim you "love waking up every morning to see these beautiful animlas, to care for them, look after them and ensure their happines , this for me is priority in my everyday life."

Are you involved in training tigers to perform tricks? Is there a way of training them to perform tricks which is "kind"?

by circus boy 123 Thu Sep 06, 2007 19:27

i tiger that has been born and bread in circus would not be " used " to roaming, hunting and the other things you stated they are used to having their food given to them and have enough space to exercise when the want they are also not used to being shot at and having stress surround them on a daily basis because this does not occur in a circus ( even if they were in the wild and used to it do you think they would enjoy being shot at and endangered as they are ?) tigers do mate and do take care of their young on circus cleaning them and playing with them and such things they do with thier cubs, an yes they do live happeir and longer than in the wild because they dont miss the wild as they were born into circus and live more stress free lives therefore owing to the better standered of their health due the the living condition they do live longer lives

of course i work with a circus to know what i do and yes i care for the animals that is my main job i assist in the training of the animals and yes of course there are kind ways of doing this its simple and reward for the good ( treats mostly ) rather than punish for the mistakes. im not going to name which circus or in which country i currently work in because thats my privilage and privacy

by xxx Thu Sep 06, 2007 21:17

1. i do not apriciate being called uneducated and 2. i have on plenty of anti circis websites and never one have i seen evidence of crulty in the circuses that i have made reference to so why are you giving me links to english and american circuses.

I have seen the chinese state circus and i also saw a circus last year with chinese acts (most of which were very similar to those which performed on the chinese state) along with animals, at the first my children were board out of the skulls and i didnt enjoy it
yet at the latter i honestly can say it was spectacular to see such talented humans and animals perform to gether

i dont understand why u paint every circus with the same brush its been asked many times, so can some one come back with a diplomatic answer

by circus boy 123 Thu Sep 06, 2007 22:12

thank you ciara finnaly someone asking the same questions as

by fu manchu Thu Sep 06, 2007 22:22

It's disingenous, and considering the recent surge in animal welfare threads on indymedia ireland & some of the discussions we've seen, and some very tenous comparisons made to Treblinka - it might be a moment for the animal welfare umbrella groups to consider their immediate campaigning and lobbying priorities. The beginning of the hunt season (on its traditional glorious 12th of august) seemed to go well for you & you got more mileage & sympathy out of the stag in the playground story then the earlier airsoft debacle. I mentioned briefly in a thread somewhere (perhaps above) that I enjoyed my holidays rambling with borrowed dogs and a lent gun & full box of cartridges. I suppose I ought clarify now - lest anyone think me the sort of blaggard who'd take on the likes of lady dunsany or shoot a red kite hawk out of Gummy Gormley's skies that I didn't actually use any of the ordinance in killing the wildlife whose spoors were so easy to find. Nope. I'm neither that insensitive to animal suffering or stupid enough to pass up an opportunity to sell ammo on the black market. But enough of that - I mentioned & thus introduced the chinese state circus along with Oleg Popov's moscow state, the cirque soleil and Jim Rose circus for reasons which overarch more than their evident contemplation in comments thus far. Most abuse of humans occurs in the home, as indeed does most abuse of animals. But it is easier for us to cry & hue & thus scapegoat or further marginalise individuals by believing there is more possiblity of rape or serious assualt on the street. Equally so - I suggest the worst abuse of animals is not at circuses & without promoting and facilitating performance arts ( in squats or social centres and schools) no-one may finally put an end to animal circuses. I humbly suggest to the animal rights crew to concentrate on one of the most important issues they have in their portfolio at present - that of the great ape rights & its the long term effects of granting those rights to the whole philosophical gamut of "sentience", the whole sociological phenomona which is circus or spectacle of either animal or human type & thus they would be true to one of the founders of their movement - Jeremy Bantham.
Yes there are bad circuses. But there are worse labs and experiments. Yes there are better circuses and employees and it is must be clear at this stage so many years into this regular thread that individuals who work or have worked in circuses or with performance animals do take welfare seriously & are knowledgeable.
In short - if you want to achieve your long term goals - then you must concentrate your efforts. I want so much as do most on this site in this very diverse & trans-national community. But there is a logical and tactical sequence to how best we win what we want & thus avoid losing those battles we ignore. That strategical orientation ought be common to all rights based campaigns - be they social, civil, gender, human, sentient, simian, animal, migrant or what have you.

I believe you need the support of 3 more MEP's signatures on the proposed resolutions on non-human experimentation. Perhaps they are the toughest nuts to crack?

by Circo - Circolandia Fri Sep 07, 2007 00:58

Sorry, but that is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard! Do u expect a horse 2 smile? c'mon get a grip!

by seamus Wed Sep 12, 2007 10:40

circus boy 123 said "like i said i dont doubt that certain circus dont treat animals as they should"

come on then name them. if you think some treat animals badly and others treat them well name names

by circus boy 123 Fri Sep 14, 2007 15:54

im not going to name names i dont do that but not all shows are the same so stop treating us all the same