The world wipes its crocodile tears with Prada whilst Palestine is slowly broke on the Zionist wheel

by TD - IPSC Sun Aug 26, 2007 13:08

more!

by Michael Martin Sun Aug 26, 2007 17:07

Since the IPSC has now made the gay issue part of of their debate, I would like to ask these people why they condemn the only state (Israel) in the region where gay people enjoy some legal protection? But on the other hand support people who to a large degree support a religious agenda whose treatment for gays includes stoning to death?

by Don Sun Aug 26, 2007 18:01

I'll remember not to buy Prada. They make shoes or something right? I'm no fashion guru. As to the guy who seems like hes an Israeli supporter, if I had to chose to ban a gay pride parade or fire rockets randomly at peoples houses, I think I'll put my rainbow away.

by Us Sun Aug 26, 2007 18:21

The people on the Gay Pride march obviously didn't realise that the supporters of Palestine in Galway couldn't care less about the rights of the Gay community not to be stoned to death.The only rights that interest them are the right to be smug with a holier than thou attitude to others who disagree with their vilification of Jews and Israel.Ask not that they think of how their blanket unquestioning support for one side alone leads to blindness on the denial of rights to the Gay community .

by Nodin Sun Aug 26, 2007 18:52

I wasn't aware of any Gay people being stoned to death in the occupied territories. Nor do I see how the religous conservatism of some sections of Palestinian society can be used to justify their being subjected to a semi-apartheid brutal regime for 40 years.

by Mike Novack Mon Aug 27, 2007 12:52

A more general question is being raised about "interests". When trying to get people to work together really need to take into account that thier interests in the matter MAY indeed be quite different.

So yes -- although I am personally hetero I can very well understand that when choosing up sides in the Isreali-Palestinian conflict the gays might reluctantly prefer the Israeli side because for themselves (even for Palestinian gays) the Israelis might be preferable.

Have you followed the news from that part of the world? There is indeed homophpobia in Israel, it's a contentious matter in Israeli society. BUT (a big but) by and large gays are protected. That goes as far as the court system inventing "creative" solutions to protect gay Palestinian "illegals" (one was "sentenced" to "house arrest" in his partners aparatment -- allowed to go out to work/shop).

The reason I said this was a "general" problem with organizing is that it isn't only sexuality that can be divisive in this way. When trying to organize people it is going to be ineffective to ask them to give up their own "close to the bone" interests in the name of unity on some great cause. The people are NOT being unreasonable when they turn you down, not making a poor judgement. It's not just the Palestine-Israel question where this comes up. Ask yourself honestly, which would be worse, to be exploited in the work place (the capitalist-socialist fight) or in the bedroom.

by Nodin Mon Aug 27, 2007 14:14

Valid points Sir.

by David L - IPSC Mon Aug 27, 2007 17:15

In reply to some comments, Israel’s actually got a pretty dire record when it comes to gay rights. It still maintains its policies of torturing gays, assassinating members of their families, and humiliating them at random checkpoints. Not to mention demolishing their houses, depriving them of food and running water, and not letting many gays into their own country.

Perhaps, this is alright because the gays it acts this way towards are Palestinian, and Israel treats all Palestinians with the same brutality – gay or straight. Or perhaps (crazy thought) human rights are indivisible.

Though I wasn’t there in Galway, it seems that many people at the Pride march seem to have thought the latter, and more power to them!

by us Mon Aug 27, 2007 23:46

When one's own religion permits and encourages torture and murder, yes murder, of the gay community, with no sign of this practice ever changing, one should fear the actions of one's own religion every bit as much, if not more, than one should fear anything Israel is accused of doing.

by Nodin Tue Aug 28, 2007 11:16

As any number of religons have been used to justify any number of atrocities, its hard for one to know which one one refers too. As an atheist, one finds them all rather "odd".....

But given the context you're probably trying to pull a "IZLAM IS TEH EBBIL" as if disagreeing with a religons tenets justifies armed occupation and colonisation....just a wild guess on my part of course....

by Michael Martin Tue Aug 28, 2007 15:14

So far I am not aware of even one single attack carried out by Israeli law enforcement agencies or the military against gay people because of their sexual orientation. I challenge the IIPSC to cite just one incident where people have been targeted purely for their sexual orientation, and not as a precaution against terrorist attacks.

by Feyadeen Tue Aug 28, 2007 15:19

Irrelevant Michael, irrelevant. You very well that the brutal repression of Palestinians, gay or straight, is not merely a 'precaution against terrorist attacks' - its goal is to crush all resistance to Israeli occupation and force the Palestinians to abandon their legitimate democratic goals. Trying to excuse Israel's record by talking about gay rights is fairly pitiful

by Nodin Tue Aug 28, 2007 22:27

Actually Michael a chara, nobody has alleged they have. Factually we know they enforce a semi-apartheid system, use snipers on school children, have a slow-drip ethnic cleansing going on in the OT and are the only democracy that is currently practicing overt colonialism but no, we are currently unaware of them targeting homosexuals. Any homosexuals they may have killed were more than likely shot on the grounds of being Arab, rather than the result of homophobia on the part of the IDF. You may therefore rest easy, knowing that they do indeed hold the 'moral high ground'.

by Roger Wed Sep 05, 2007 01:41

If you consider Israel's policies in Palestine 'colonial' (not a word I would use - I do prefer occupation), they're hardly the only democracy to have colonies. The UK still has the Falklands, after all, France as French Guyana and Martinique, the US has Puerto Rico and American Samoa and Guam and... Iraq?

by Ron Thu Sep 06, 2007 10:58

You weren't aware but it is a fact, that Gays ARE persecuted in the PA, not stoned to death but shoted.
Israel had given shelter for many years to Palestinian Gays.

by pat c Thu Sep 06, 2007 11:06

I must have been mistaken. I was under the impression that a gay man was stabbed by an ultra othodox jew on the Pride parade in Jerusalem last year. Certainly gays come under oppression in the occupied territories from islamist extrmists but the might of the IDF was unable to protect the Pride parade from jewish extremists in Jerusalem.

by Nodin Thu Sep 06, 2007 20:00

I didn't say I wasnt aware of what happened in the Territories with the Palestinians, Ron. Try reading whats there the next time. And while you're at it explain what in all fuckery the conservatism of Palestinian society has go to do with the Justifying the Israeli occupation. Does this idea allow Palestinians legitmately occupy parts of Israel peopled by conservatives? Can we liberal lefties take over large parts of the American mid-west and build colonies there, given their none too gay friendly ways?