The Myth of The great SF Referendum machine

by looking at the facts Sun Oct 20, 2002 16:47

It is important to try to analyse exactly what happened during the Nice campaign as there are lessons to be learned from it for the future and we did win 40 odd percent against all the odds. There was no transport arranged by SF in my area this time, unlike in the recent election, but sf did call around to some, but not all streets in my area. While this is well below their election performance it was much better than the swp who were fairly active in my area during the recent election but were totally invisible during Nice, apart from hassling people to buy bus tickets for an anti war trip to shannon!

I seen a few WP posters, which is not bad as they dont have as many people as the swp these days, but the few people they have are somewhat more committed. The communist party again few in number produced a good poster and put a fair number up all over Dublin, more that the WP suprisingly enough. The IRSP and the SP as a party were nowhere to be seen in my area or anywhere else that I have heard about in Dublin. Perhaps the best work, both in quality of posters and leaflets was carried out by the smallest groups in Nice the LAN and AFRI.

by Justin Moran - Sinn Fein Mon Oct 21, 2002 10:46 maigh_nuad at yahoo dot com

You stupid trolling fuck. I'm too tired to even get into this with you. We ran an excellent campaign, the best referendum campaign we have ever run. We put six times as much money into it as we did last time. We did everything possible to win it and we did more than any other left wing or progressive organisation in Ireland to defeat this Treaty.

Now, if you disagree, grow a fucking pair of balls and use your real name rather than hiding behind a handle. We did our job. Our vote came out. It wasn't enough. What the fuck did you do?

by King Mob Mon Oct 21, 2002 20:23

This is a time of joy for those of us who have fought you nationalists and your fake leftie hangers on. You and your littel Ireland movement has been beaten. Your program against Nice was a reactionary one,especially the Anarchists. Hah! National Libertarians. NA NA NA NA!!!! NA NA NA NA!!!!

by Bertie Mon Oct 21, 2002 21:39

King mob is simply mad and deserves no comment but 'Justin' never answered the substantive points raised by the 'saner' writers above: why was the usual SF machine not in operation? I also heard that many SF canvassers did not work this time and I heard this from members of SF who were not happy about it themselves. Also the Transport was not put on, this is true. It still needs to be said that SF did more that the swp etc, but an open analysis is allowed even if it is not welcomed.

by Party Defender Tue Oct 22, 2002 10:09

Anyone that knows me will know that I'm far fram a fan of Sinn Fein. But I have to defend the actions of SF, SP, Greens and all the other parties that have been coming under attack recently over the Nice Treaty campaign.

I dont think that those criticising the parties fully comprehend the work that was done by these groups. They dont understand that these parties have other committments. Community work, internal party work etc all are important and take up time. Serious parties have not got the liberty to flit from one issue to the next

by Justin Moran - Sinn Fein Tue Oct 22, 2002 10:16 maigh_nuad at yahoo dot com

Look at the ones with the highest No votes. Donegal, both of them, Kerry North, Dublin South Central, Dublin South West, Dublin North West. Some of our strongest areas. The No vote in Cavan Monaghan was up. As I think was the one in Louth. We did the job. Did we put as much effort into it as a general election campaign? No, we couldn't, can't and didn't, nor did we claim to. We did as much as an organisation broke after the general election, with a collapsing peace agreement, an Assembly registration campaign in full swing and a generally exhausted membership could do. I think we ran an excellent campaign and when one takes into account the problems we had, we ran a brilliant campaign.

by hs sp Tue Oct 22, 2002 11:35

Obviously they put alot into the last general election and obviously their member ship was tired. THIS IS NORMAL, we are human. LAN as they don't contest elections didn't contest the general election as all the parties did.

by Ray Tue Oct 22, 2002 11:53

I should point out that while LAN didn't exist during the election campaign, a lot of LAN's members were active around the election, calling for votes to be spoiled.

I could criticise the SP and SF for their _general_ policy of concentrating on elections, saying this is a failure of their political analysis, they're more concerned with getting people elected than actually winning issues, and so on and so forth. I think those criticisms are valid, and maybe I'll come back to them some other time.

But critcising the SP and SF for their conduct in the referendum campaign is just silly. Of course you guys didn't do as much as you would for an election campaign - that's an obvious consequence of your politics. That's very different from saying you ignored the issue, or didn't work as hard on it as you should, or whatever. For something that wasn't an election campaign, you put a lot of work into Nice, and the No vote would have been a lot smaller without it.

by Justin Moran - Sinn Fein Tue Oct 22, 2002 13:34 maigh_nuad at yahoo dot com

about debating our 'overemphasis' on elections sounds like fun.....

by Ray Tue Oct 22, 2002 13:51

Right now I'm busy persuading Aine Ni Chonaill to write a feature for the front page. Its the next step in my masterplan for purging the newswire of all content that isn't produced by anarchists or the ICP. Then I'll have a 'debate' with you, where I write both sides of the argument, and delete any posts that are actually from you. I reckon by then my evil genius will have stunned you into an awed silence, so that'll delay things still further...

by Justin Moran - Sinn Fein Tue Oct 22, 2002 14:24 maigh_nuad at yahoo dot com

The fiendish plot between Anarchists and the ICP, long suggested in the Socialist Worker, has at last been revealed. You made just one mistake Ray in your otherwise Machiavellian intrigue, and that was to publically post your entire plan to the internet complete with gloating. A simple, yet crucial mistake.

by Ray Tue Oct 22, 2002 14:47

Grizzly Adams has trained you well! I should have known - that slack-jawed grin, that vacant stare - nobody is really as foolish as you appeared! But you forgot one thing - my loyal pack of West Brits! They'll buy me the time I need to get to my escape pod...

by Aine Ni Chonail Tue Oct 22, 2002 15:03

How could you associate with the British? They have destroyed my native West Cork.

I will still write for your new paper Trotskyist Anarchist but you will have to let those brits go.

But who is this evil genius you talk about?
*my evil genius will have stunned you into an awed silence*

by party idiot Tue Oct 22, 2002 20:51

Its nice to see the SP congratulating SF and visa versa for all your 'work' and crap or non existant posters etc. But if your work was so 'excellent' How come out of almost 500,000 new voters you only convinced an extra 5000? to vote no? That is a damning statistic and is only partly explained by the rigged ref con and news management.

by OK - SY Wed Oct 23, 2002 10:48

To say that the SPs main concern is winning votes and not issues is a blatent lie.

The fact is that we are involved in quiet a depth of community and trade union work. Anarchists simply are not involved in the depth of work that we are.

You are more free to ditch all and go 100% on the Nice Treaty. We are not willing to ditch other work because of the Nice Treaty.

We are an organisation engaged in real work, we did do work on Nice, we make no apologies on not ditching youth work, anti-war work and anti-fees work just so that I could concentrate on the Nice Treaty.

by Ray Wed Oct 23, 2002 12:13

First off, in the last few weeks, as well as delivering LAN leaflets, I've delivered Workers Solidarity and anti-bin charges leaflets door-to-door. I didn't 'drop everything' to work on the referendum.

Secondly, though I suppose it was a kind of left-handed compliment, I was actually defending the SP, saying they have done quite a bit on the referendum. I do think you guys prioritise elections though. You may have done a lot of work on the referendum, but I'm sure you did a whole lot more during the election campaign (as did Sinn Fein), and I don't see many other ways of interpreting that fact. Sure, the referendum is just one among the many issues that you're involved in. Is that true of an election campaign as well? If its not to raise the profile of the party in the hope of doing better in future elections, why was your campaign so focused on a couple of constituencies?

I'm actualy curious what your response will be...

by OK - SP Wed Oct 23, 2002 17:13

I do not deny that elections are important work. The SP approach elections seriously. Elections are a period when it is possible to spread your message among great numbers of workers. Referenda are also a great opportunity to do this, and we did work in the Nice referendum.

During the election the SP were engaged in other work. For example the Bin Tax campaign was very much underway in Fingal. Both Joe Higgins and CLare Daly wer in court fighting against the bn charges.

One thing I remember from the election campaign was the stickers put on the bins of non-payers in fingal. That issue and campaign was running at the same time as our election campaign and of course as you know continues.

Why did we concentrate on particular constituencies? the reason is simple, we are a small party that has not got the ability to run a nationwide election campaign. SF put candidates up all over the place, they had the money and media coverege to do that. WE could have run candidates in every constituency, but we would not have been able to campaign seriously.

by Ray Thu Oct 24, 2002 09:18

Look, I know that you worked on the referendum campaign, and I know that you did some work on other issues during the election campaign. I'm not trying to accuse you of anything here.

But, at the same time, do you think that you did as much work on the referendum campaign as on the election? Did you spend as much money, put up as much posters, distribute as many leaflets, and knock on as many doors persuading people to vote no to Nice as you did when you were persuading people to vote for Joe, Clare, and the rest? If not, then do you not think this means that you prioritised the election over the referendum?

Incidentally, when I asked why you concentrated on a few constituencies, I didn't mean in the election. I was just pointing out that you put most of your work in the referendum campaign into those constituencies where you'll be running candidates in the election, right? And why would that be, if not in the hope that it will lead to a better result in the next election?

by OK - SP Thu Oct 24, 2002 15:23

Yes I accept that we did work in the areas where we stood in the elections. This is not because of sinister electoral reasons.....it's because that is where we are organised and it's where we are known.

We stand in areas where we have a record of campaigning work. In my area the SP have a record of campaigning, bin tax, drugs, various other community campaigns. We stood a candidate because we have a certain level of support and active supporters and members.

When it comes to the Nice Referendum we do work where we can, usually in areas we have support and supporters.

by Ray Thu Oct 24, 2002 15:29

Are the only SP branches in constituencies where you run candidates? You don't have any branches in Dublin South Central, for instance? Or do the members of those branches go to another constituency to do work on the referendum?

And you do agree with me that you put a lot more resources into the election campaign than into the referendum campaign?