Greens Under Fire from Anti-War activists

by Ken Fri Mar 21, 2003 15:08

Paul Gogarty clearly saw that the Gardaí were kicking women on the ground. This is when an anti-war campainger challenged him about using his position as a TD and interveneing with the Gardaí. This is when Gogarty refused and said that it was so important for him to get his car out etc.

Whatever he thinks about the blockade etc. I dont care. But he should report the incident of Garda brutality. Whether he is for or against the blockade, he did witness the Gardaí beating up protesters. Will Paul Gogarty do anything about it?

by angry activist Fri Mar 21, 2003 15:16

You can talk to Paul Gogarty on 618 4088. or you can email him at paul.gogarty@oireachtas.ie

Ask him yourself if he will be reporting the Gardaí kicking women on the ground, and ask him about his position on Kurdistan while your at it.

by Joe Sloan Fri Mar 21, 2003 15:24

That aint true. It was well known prior to the event that the shannon protest on 1st march was not going to be peaceful - and this was what was planned. A violent protest may be disastrous for the peace movement which will rely on encouraging the wider general public participation. This participation will only arise from peaceful action. Like it or not. No doubt a bit of violence would be enjoyed by the few hardcore, this is only serving their own anger and rage. Much better to channel it and increase the size of the no-to-war movement?

And for the record the GP were well represented at F15 and last night!

My tuppence.

by Joe Fri Mar 21, 2003 15:29

So the GP continues to lie even after March 1st passed off peacefully. Joe Sloan you are a LIAR, it was in fact well know that March 1st would be "mass non-violent civil disobedience in the tradition of Gandhi's salt march. It will be a purely peaceful protest". Those are the EXACT words from the plan GNAW released in advance of the day which is still online at http://grassrootsgathering.freeservers.com/gnaw.html

Joe Sloan next time you want to tell lies about others do it in a way that is not so easily disproved.

Scumbag!

by Green Watcher Fri Mar 21, 2003 15:31

The sit-down protest yesterday was peaceful, it would not have put people off. It was correct to blockade the dail at the time they passed the pro-war motion. I think that pulling down the fence in shannon on March 1st wasnt the best thing to call for at that stage, but I really blame the Greens, Labour, Sinn Féin and PANA for wrecking the Shannon demo, not GNAW. It was the Greens, Labour et al that pulled the rugg from under the IAWM and played into the hands of the media, not GNAW.

Joe Sloan, can you legitimise the Green position on Kurdistan?

by Joe Sloan Fri Mar 21, 2003 15:45

I'm prepared to be wrong but why on earth would I want to lie?

I saw the minor confrontation at Shannon on TV but there were calls for more action on that day throughout the week prior to the event.

Anyhow - how come you guys don't give your names?

by Chekov Fri Mar 21, 2003 16:11

What happened on March 1st was almost exactly what was announced in advance, that is a NON-VIOLENT attempt at civil disobedience. The calls and claims that it was to be violent ONLY came from people who were discouraging people from attending, including the greens, Socialist Party, SF (ha!) & PANA. There were no declarations of violent intentions from ANYBODY who took part and there was no violence on the day except for a protestor getting punched in the face and some rough arrests by the gardai. Just because lots of people lied about it then (including ye rats in the GP) does not mean that it suddenly comes true.

For the record, there have now been at least 6 attempts at direct action at Shannon in the last 6 months, involving maybe 400 people altogether. There have been ZERO reported incidents of violence from protestors. Yet every time that we try it, these same baseless allegations are hurled. So Joe, if you're not lying, you're an idiot. Not because you are ill-informed about this, that would be forgiveable, but because you go trumpeting your ignorance on the internet in front of a large number of people who know exactly what happened.

by Joe Fri Mar 21, 2003 16:15

And I called you a liar because the organisers of the protest called it as a non-violent one. Claiming that they intended it to be violent is thus a lie. Simple really. Get some respect for others in the anti war movements rather then lying about them and we'll all get on much better.

by Joe Sloan Fri Mar 21, 2003 16:47

Nothing Joe - how can I possibly complain.

I didn't intend to suggest that (all) the event planners were gearing up for a battle. Maybe sounded like that reading it again, but not intended. My point is, there were calls for action that day. These were reported - including on this site. Of course because something is reported does not mean it is neccesarily true. But why would a number of organisations all decide to stay away on that day? Is there a conspiracy between these groups? Come on enlighten me.

Pace!

by Joe Fri Mar 21, 2003 16:59

Joe I'm disappointed as its becoming more and more obvious you are lying to cover the GP ass. Please provide ONE example of organisers calling for violent action. In fact provide ONE example of anyone calling for violent action on March 1st.

I know your using the Gobbels method that insists if you make a lie big and keep repeating it people will belive it. But on indymedia its easy to call people on this so you are just damaging your party further.

by Joe Sloan Fri Mar 21, 2003 17:16

Good grief, I was asking you a question. Do questions lie too?

I am interested to know what your hypothesis is, regarding the non-participation of all these groups? Is there a conspiracy between these groups?

Ok here's one report...

from RTE's web site

The Catholic bishop of Killaloe has said that he will not take part in any protest at Shannon Airport tomorrow, because of the possibility of disturbances there.

Dr Willie Walsh said this evening on Nuacht TG4 that it was a complete contradiction for people to use violence while claiming to protest for peace.

The bishop said that any disturbances would do more harm than good to the anti-war cause.

........

by Mick Fri Mar 21, 2003 18:31

Peter Pan said there was going to be violence so it must be true.

GNAW released a statement of intent to conduct a non violent direct action at Shannon. Quoting people who were not involved in organising (and a lot of whom were using excuses to distance themselves from) the protest is disengenuous. The reason they all cried off was not because of the Non Violent intent but the Civil Disobedience bit.

Now no more deflecting the issue. Address the real allegation:

"When the Gardaí wished to move the protesters after about 1 hour Paul Gogarty, Green TD for Dublin Mid West, came to their assistance. Gogarty claimed that those who voted against the motion should be allowed out. He said that he had his own car in their and wanted to drive home. Deputy Gogarty had no reply to protesters when they asked the Green TD to get the bus or to cycle."

by Anto - unaligned Fri Mar 21, 2003 19:17

this kind of bitchin among yerselves shit is pathetic why don't yees get a life for fucks sake

by liz - none Fri Mar 21, 2003 19:34 lizcon2 at yahoo dot com

And all the while there's a war on.

by Green Giant Fri Mar 21, 2003 20:32

Will someone from the Greens please explain the actions of Deputy Gogarty? I've no problem with him being opposed to the sit-down protest. But I do have a problem with him caring more about his car than people getting beaten by the Gardai.

by Seanin Fri Mar 21, 2003 23:14

And for that I thank them. The liberation is preceding effectively thanks to Sargent making sure that responsible protest is heard only and there are no violent attacks made upon fences.

Thank you Trevor Sargent, I thank you for all the Iraqi children.

by Simon Sat Mar 22, 2003 14:33 Co. Clare

It is not as simple as supporting Kurdish self-determination or not. The leadership of the two Kurdish controled autonomous areas in Northern Iraq are not looking for independance. They are looking for autonomy in a new democratic Iraq.
Here is an excerpt from a joint statement made by The Kurdistan Democratic Party and The Patriotic Union of Kurdistan on March 2nd last:

"The unity of the Iraqi Kurdistan Forces, under the JHL, will consolidate and strengthen the unity of the Iraqi opposition forces that aspire to end dictatorship and establish a democratic, pluralistic federal system in Iraq."
Here is the statement on the KDP website:
http://www.kdp.pp.se/press/030303.htm

If the Kurdish people in Iraq said quite clearly that they wanted independance then I'm sure that The Green Party would support it.

by OK - SP Sun Mar 23, 2003 00:59

Self determination does not mean independence. It means that the Kurdish people should be allowed determine whether or not they have an independent state, or if they are to have autonomous status within Iraq, Turkey etc.

by Jane Butterworth Tue Mar 25, 2003 17:05 janebworth at hotmail dot com Glasnevin

I tried to put a bit of balance in relation to the whole Paul Gogarty thing in another forum. Then I read this page and checked with what Gogarty said and those who disagreed with him. It seems that people are telling porkies all over the place.

Lies about Kurdish self determination and the role of various TDs. Socialists and Sinn Fein slagging Greens and vice versa.

Lies from Gogarty or Ken Owande about what was actually said.

Lies about the true nature of Garda attacks - either overblown or covered up.

Lies from the Socialist Party or the Greens and others about what was actually planned regarding Shannon protests.

The whole thing is a pack of f***ing lies from one end to the other. Everyone is having a go at each other because they believe their ideology to be better or purer.

Meanwhile Bush fiddles while Iraq burns.

A plague on all your houses. What about getting off people's arses and doing some good work in the community, comrades. Helping old people. Picking up litter. Raising money for humanitarian aid. Rather than being stuck up ye're arses, angry idealists. GET REAL!!!!

I thought this site was independent media, but it's more a collection of subjective rantings. Just like the rantings of Independent Newspapers et al. The first casualty of war is the truth.

I'm going to join a political party.Don't know which one yet, I'll check their credentials by what they do on the ground rather than what they say during populist rantings at rallies.

Maybe then I'll get elected some day and can make a difference by thinking globally and acting locally rather than thinking anally and acting atrociously.

by Paul Gogarty TD - GP Tue Mar 25, 2003 20:14 pgogarty at oireachtas dot ie 01-6183022 (not 6184088 as above)

Someone told me about the discussion under "Paul Gogarty Replies" which was my reply to someones e-mail. I noticed the discussion in this thread which seems to be fair enough, but what I read aabove is misinformation at worst and selective iinformation at best. So here's my side of the story:

You may have read my original reply elsewhere to someone which was posted without my knowledge. Just for further clarification I have posted below a reply to someone else who had the guts to contact me directly.

(Note to party members. If you want to say something, say it to my face. I would be happy to meet you and talk over a cup of tea or coffee)

Anyway, in the spirit of fairness and removing names where applicable here is some further information. I don't like violence by Gardai but honestly didn't see any on the day when I was there. I am raising the matter in the Dail, however.

"Dear F..

Thank you for having the courtesy to contact me directly as opposed to some of those who have put misinformation up on the web. I appreciate that.

Explain?

Simple as this and to expand on what I said already to some others: I was near the plinth having just finished voting against the use of Shannon in the Dail. Dan Boyle was on his way out (as I would have been in due course) but there was a large queue of cars blocked because of the protest outside.

I had been at this protest and spoke at it around 12:20. But then at lunchtime I was appalled when Senator Terry Leydon had paint smeared over
him. I disagree with this as I felt that it totally ruined the impact of the protest on the day the media's eyes were on the Dail activities.

When the cars were queued I was concerned in case someone would target TDs going out with paint as opposed to protest. So I said to Dan Boyle I would
go out and try and ensure that nothing happened because like I said I disagree with that form of direct action as I think it damages the cause
more than furthers it.

I went out, noticed some people lying/sitting down in protest, but didn't notice that they were chained together. That was the major mistake on my
part because what followed happened in isolation. I basically borrowed a megaphone and said: "shut up for a sec, just for a sec, my name is Paul
Gogarty i spoke here earlier, just to let you know that the vote has gone through but that there was a large vote against the use of Shannon,
including from the Green Party. I would ask if people could move over a bit to let people out, because everyone's coming out after the vote and there are quite a number of TDs who are anti-war who are being blocked as well."

It was then that someone pointed out that people were on the ground and were being moved by the police. [one person] at this stage came over and told me I was not wanted. I said I hadn't been aware of people chained and then went over to three Gardai and told them to be careful because people were chained together and would be hurt and that it wouldn't reflect well on
them. I also used the argument that certain people at the protest were just dying for someone to be hurt as this could be an example of "police
brutality". I believe that to be the case of a small minority, but not necessarily the majority, but it was an argument that would work with some
police.

At this stage I had given the megaphone back. Then [the same individual] saw me talking to the Gardai and using the megaphone called me a "Green Party police officer" or something to that effect and a "political careerist" and "bureacrat". This pissed me off majorly so on the spur of the moment I retaliated, something I regret doing [and not something I would be politically proud of]. I gave him a finger sign because I had
no megaphone to talk back. I also blessed him because I thought that would appeal to his
Catholic worker mentality.

I don't agree with his methods aims and he obviously doesn't agree with mine. I can only assume he is sincere in trying to stop innocent Iraqis being butchered and believes that the more violent/assertive form of direct action is the best way. I disagree and respect his views. but he didn't respect mine and tried to slag off my party for his own gratification. All I did was ask for people to have the courtesy of moving the protest aside slightly as I do not think the original intention was to block the Dail
entrance. And if you appreciate that I did not know of people chained at the time then you can see my logic as thinking it would only require one step sideways.

So that's my explanation. What I did seems to have pissed a lot of people off. I apologise to those I unintentionally offended by my naivity and lack of situational cop-on. But I don't apologise for asking people to move or for disagreeing with paint attacks and intimidation. That's where I differ with some people. It doesn't make us enemies, but together we need to focus on the best way to tackle the illegal war and help those suffering.

Trusting that this explanation clarifies some of the issues, even if you don't necessarily agree with me.

Best wishes,

Paul Gogarty

ps - I have also tabled a number of Dail questions regarding an investigation into allegations of violence by Gardai on protestors and in one case, on Gardai."

by The Holy Mugger Fri Mar 28, 2003 23:21

Fair play to you Paul. You are an honest T.D.