Popular Front for freedom!

by King Mob Fri May 10, 2002 13:37

When things start going well, can the communists gang up on the anarchists and start firing on them?

Then it will be exactly like Spain.....

by Ray Fri May 10, 2002 13:49

The problem with abstract calls for unity is that there's no real agreement on what people would be uniting for. Of the twenty or thirty groups that were at yesterday's march, each had their own priorities, their own ways of working, and their own longterm goals. So if all of them (not to mention all of the unaligned individuals) got into a single room, and said, "What do we do now", there'd be twenty or thirty different answers.

That doesn't mean that people can't work together, just that they're not going to work together all the time, and they won't fit into a single umbrella organisation. The closest thing to an umbrealla group that I know of is the grassroots gathering
http://grassrootsgathering.freeservers.com/index.html
and that is a talking shop and meeting place more than anything else. Its a chance for people to discover areas of agreement and organise to work on them, rather than a place where an overall strategy is planned and everyone is assigned a task.

In the meantime, of course, people can continue to work together on issues where they agree. RTS is open to anyone who agrees with its aims and methods, and I'm sure the same is true of all of the other groups you mention. The problem on the left, and the main reason there isn't more co-operation, is lack of trust. I'll happily work alongside people whose politics I disagree with, as long as I trust them to be honest and above board (for example, I've worked on a number of campaigns with members of the Socialist Party - we disagree on a lot of things, but can still work together). But if some people ignore decisions and usurp campaigns - in short, behave dishonestly - then I can't work with them.

by saortinn Fri May 10, 2002 13:54

I am in agreement with shane. although what more could have been done yesterday I dont know. yestersday was more to prove a point than protest, and I think that point was proven.
The issue of electioneering at every rally or protestive been on really pisses me off, there is no escape from the insidious parliamentary whores who all seem to want only power and access it at whatever cost.
Part of me wants to to embrace the SWP (for example) because of their anti-capitalist stance, but I also know socialism can be just as evil as capitalism in the hands of powerful state. Which is why I hate when they speak at any gathered crowd. Some umbrella group is definitely necessary but an integral part of it would have to be no electioneering and a huge degree of tolerance.

by Mark - Socialist Party Fri May 10, 2002 14:05

You will know that the Stalinists fired on Trotskyists aswell and in the street Battles in Barcelona the POUM and the Anarchists were on the same side against the Stalinists.
Stalin was calling the Trotskyists "agents of Fascism" in his propaganda.

by Ray Fri May 10, 2002 14:15

How about the Bolsheviks in Russia? Breaking treaties with the Makhnovists, closing down anarchist papers, imprisoning and executing anarchist activists...

by Man With The IcePick - N.K.V.D. Fri May 10, 2002 14:53

We do have leaders: Jo Carolan, Keiran Allen, Grace Lally, you may have noticed them with the loudspeaker yoc, ordering people to disperse, liasing with the police, and so on.
They are part of a group called the Socialist Worker's Party, which is a group of jornalists, academics, and students, which is the vanguard (means 'best part of' and 'leadership of')the Irish working class. I don't know how you could have missed them. One day their names will be in history alongside Lenin, Trotsky, Zinoviev, Bukharin, Stali..(opps sorry not that one), and there will be a big statue of Jo in place of the bourgeois spire now being constructed in O'Connell Street (which of course will be renamed Allen street).
Of course then you will be able to dance in the street all day long just like in Russia in the 1920ies.

But seriously folks the march was led, in liason with the police, I think it broke out of control and went to Wood Quay and stayed there contrary to their wishes. Therin is your problem first poster.
It shows how democratic these things are when people don't even know that there is a leadership.

A lot of the groups you mention first poster would not dream of doing anything more radical than standing for election, marching in circles, and signing petitions. I would urge all non-aligned people to form themselves into loose groups and set their own agenda together.
Which is after all what Reclaim the Streets is.
If that happens we can then have an umbrella.

Reclaim opposition.

by Malcolm Little Fri May 10, 2002 16:31

Icepick you are a very bitter and naive little man. Whatever the shortcomings of those members of the SWP which you named, and believe me I'm no great fan, the fact remains that they have the common sense to know that in order to overthrow capitalism you need concrete organisation. Not wishy washy well meaning liberal middle class kid's who's actions of temporarily reclaiming the streets does absolutely nothing to advance the cause of the masses of the oppressed the world over. A but sure at least their havin fun!eh

Tiocfaidh Ar La

by shane Fri May 10, 2002 17:12

i realise a lot of what you all said has some truth in it, but when i see the unity, mass organisation and huge resources of the right wing parties it makes me sick. imagine what a single, yet totally diverse, left wing popular front could achieve...
as for the spanish civil war, well, it was a very complex situation, and i would not call the stalinists actually marxists. what the soviet union did amounts to what the americans did to the kurds and the workers rebellions in Iraq 1991. as soon as Stalin had the spanish gold reserves and had observed the german war machine he packed up ordered his pathetic force back to russia. as i recall the mexican government supplied more in actual arms and equipment than anyone else.
But can we not learn from the international brigades? they were as diverse as we are, communists, anarchists, germans united with french, irish with english, and black with white.
the only people who gain from the disunity of the left are the establishment parties. we could do so much if the will was there.

by Phuq Hedd Fri May 10, 2002 17:25

Why do you resort to calling "Man with the Ice-Pick" names? How does calling him "little man" advance your argument?

Leaving that aside I would ask you which group: the diverse, independently thinking, fun and active gatherine (Reclaim The Streets) or the authoritarian, dogmatic, manipulative and secretive (Socialist Workers Party) actually did something about the degenerating living conditions in Dublin?

Which group was able to take over Burgh Quay and was enough of a threat to the State that they had to resort to criminal assaults?

Which group and approach has exposed the violence that the police deal out to citizens? Which group raised the question in the public mind "perhaps they're doing that to the Travellers, to people on picket lines, to youth from areas without economic resources"?

It wasn't the Socialist Workers Party or any of the other authoritarian elitist sects.

In fact it can't be one of those sects.

We've all seen what authoritarian bolshevism looks like: it's a State.

Very few people are willing to support that and as a socialist you shouldn't either.

Let it die.

Do something positive.

by insurgent Fri May 10, 2002 18:15

Yes, i think theres a desperate need for some sort of umbrella to coordianate and builf for anticapitalist mobilisations in ireland. the problem is that groups like GR which after this weeks mobilisations will gain codos in the popular imagination as the dominant anticapitalist organisational collective in ireland. Yet that is a fallacy. GR remains a wonderful idea, but without a democratic internal structure there is fucking no way that GR can unite the irish left for even the smallest attempt at practival unity. Look at your own experience of GR? Who called last nites demo? was it called by a collective and discussed among the aactivists of GR or was it simpy called by Grace Lally and Joe Carolan and then backed by the rest of us? The same pattern emerges with the demo against the recent racist murder of a chinese student. while undoubtedly these demos have been good calls and extremely worthwhile, the point remains that a clique can not substitute them selves for the actions of the supposed membership of the GR group. If people think this is meaningless side sniping, its not, if we want to work together in the anticapitalist movement there has to be some clear and transparent democratic organisational mechanisms in Globalise Resistence, without that it remains a front...and fronts contribute nothing to a movement except secteriamis, and suspicion...

by Phuq Hedd Fri May 10, 2002 18:39

You're complaining about the lack of democracy within GR in calling a demo related to the treatment of Reclaim The Streets. Hows about GR fecks off and leaves RTS folk to decide? If you want to offer support that's one thing, but your post which makes NO MENTION of the fact that the whole thing was about Reclaim The Streets is typical of the politico-hack mindset.

by Myles Fri May 10, 2002 19:35

look don't get upset.
people go to demo when they're about something they feel strongly about. but most people would never dream to join GR/SWP. frankly, most people would quite literally run a mile not to say hello to joe carolan or grace lally.