Water Service Job Losses: A Prelude to Privitisation?

by Millie Wed Apr 23, 2003 13:27

Militatn implemented no cuts in Liverpool. The cut backs were implemented when the 47 Labour cllrs were fired from the council and a Tory-Liberal junta took over the council.

The Tories implemented the cuts NOT Militant

by Nax Wed Apr 16, 2003 10:09

Will the SP now, retrospectively condemn the cutbacks implemented by Militant in Liverpool?

by nix Tue Apr 15, 2003 22:57

Will SF now come out against the privatisation of schools through Public Private Partnership?

by Ray Tue Apr 15, 2003 17:12

4. Sinn Fein doesn't call for non-payment because, though they oppose the charges, their opposition takes second place to their desire to increase their vote. A non-payment campaign may be the best way to defeat charges, but it may also lead to financial complications, and it may end up strengthening some (not very serious) rivals. A campaign that effectively says 'Register your opposition by voting SF' has no bad side-effects, and may have some benefits. It won't defeat the charges, but that can be rationalised away.

by Janus Tue Apr 15, 2003 16:41

I'm not so sure about the legal fees thing, if only because SF don't seem to like saying it openly. Basically, there seems to be three possibilities:

1. Sinn Fein does not call for non-payment because they are scared of the SP and SWP getting stronger.

2. Sinn Fein does not call for non-payment because they're nervous about getting stuck financially.

3. Sinn Fein is not really opposed to the Charges but is only involved to get electoral strength.

Personally, I have to say I'm inclined to 2, marginally over 3. 1 is just ridiculous. 3 is believeable, but if it was true I think Sinn Fein would have worked a deal on the Council last Christmas. I certainly have no doubt SF is capable of supporting a campaign simply to get support but not be serious about it, but I don't think they'd have done as much on the issue and pushed as hard if that was true.

That leaves number two. Considering the emphasis Sinn Fein put into electoral politics these days, and the cost of that, I can certainly believe they don't want to get hung up on it financially and SF people don't like broad fronts. It's part of the party's culture, and I should know.

So I'm happy enough to marginally give the Shinners the benefit of the doubt on the Bin Charges issue, I'd be happier if they called for non-payment and built a broad based campaign but I can somewhat understand why not.

by Andrew Tue Apr 15, 2003 16:10

First time I've heard that let out for the Sligo SF but if its a commitment not to do the same again it may be worth something. But of course its not clear it is. Clarification required perhaps :-)

This legal fees issue is a bit of a red herring isn't it. Again the anti-water charges campaign, made up of the same forces, has already tested the water (pun intended) on this. It easily raised the necessary funds to cover the legal fees of those going to court on the basis of selling membership of the campaign to households.

To be honest these sound like the sort of excuses Eric Byrne used when I was involved in the Liberties group. They sound just as hollow coming from SF as they did from DL/Labour.

by Janus Tue Apr 15, 2003 16:02

Interesting side note.

The first motion against the Bin Charges passed at the Sinn Féin Ard Fhéis stated that the party would oppose the introduction of a Bin Tax.

Sound.

But some people in SF later questioned if this meant elected representatives had to oppose Bin Charges if they were already in place when the motion was passed. I think this is the case in Sligo, whether that is the reason they can get away with what they did I don't know but I think that was the wording of the motion. In Dublin anyway they all seem to be against it.

And rather than it being the electoral issue, I've never spoken to anyone in Sinn Fein who has anything but contempt for the SP and SWP as electoral operators, I think it was more not wanting to find themselves spending thousands paying the legal bills of people they'd told not to pay.

Maybe Sinn Fein is richer than anyone else but I know as a former Sinn Fein member this is absolutely untrue for Dublin Sinn Fein.

by Andrew Tue Apr 15, 2003 15:49

This kind of ties in with what I've heard from other sources. One correction though, in Sligo Sinn Fein actually voted for bin charges which suggest they are open to compromise if the price is right.

The key problem here is that with the water tax everywhere opposition was limited to electoralism rather then non-payment it was introduced. Often by those who stood for election saying they opposed it. In Dublin where pretty much the same 'far left' groups were behind building a mass non-payment campaign it was defeated.

So it seems SF are rejecting the one 'proved' tactic for fear that they will somehow make the SP/SWP credible in the areas where SF has reasonable support already. This makes limited sense in terms of SF's electoral possibilites (after all it hardly wants to help build up potential rivals). But it makes zero sense in terms of helping people resist the tax.

by Janus Tue Apr 15, 2003 15:36

I asked this of a Sinn Féin councillor a couple of months ago about whether I should pay it or not (I'm not paying it, I wanted to see his reaction)

He said he wasn't paying for it himself because he didn't agree with it. I asked him was he asking me to refuse payment. He said it was a decision for me, that he realised some people might be afraid of legal action and that it was a decision for myself to take.

Not satisfied with this, I tackled a Sinn Fein activist I know who told me that if they told people not to pay, and they didn't, and they were taken to court, Sinn Fein would feel an obligation to provide financial support for these people. He said they basically didn't have the money.

So I asked why they didn't get involved in the Campaign Against the Bin Tax. His response was a variety of colourful and unprintable comments about fringe leftists using Sinn Fein to build up something approaching credibility in working class areas.

Now I don't know if this is the thinking of Sinn Fein in Dublin itself but this is what one of their activists told me. Personally I think the party should be calling for non-payment but they're also the only party in the Council that votes consistenly against it and on the couple of anti-Bin Tax protests I've been to they're the largest grouping.

by Badman Tue Apr 15, 2003 15:24

then SF wouldn't have the tax money to spend when they go into coalition government a few years from now. I mean radical posturing is all very well, but it can't get in the way of the important stuff.

You didn't actually think SF want to defeat the tax did you?

by Andrew Tue Apr 15, 2003 15:16

This SF press release is very similar to the local SF newsletters being distributed around Dublin. Like th e release above my local one opposes the bin tax. But it does not advocate non-payment, its entirely silent on this. Which is odd because non-payment in Dublin is very high and the government are preparing legislation so that councils can refuse to collect the bill of non-payers.

by 2 Tue Apr 15, 2003 15:09

see www.indymedia.ie/article133