Che Guevara Tribute

by (A) Tue Jul 08, 2003 21:34

Hehe Che was a fucking overclass brat!He came from the rulingclass and educated himself to a doctor or something like that....get your head out of your arse. Che and Castro helped destroy the anarchist movement (the biggest in the world,at that time),and personally was responsible for killing and toturing anarchists and other dissidents. He helped Castro turn Cuba into this stalinist dicatorship (infact,Che was much more of an ortodox stalinist than Castro was),that it is today. Dont kidd yourself about that.Go to the anarchist people of colour website (i dont have it right now) and check out the history of Cuba from an anarchist (who is himself from cuba) prespective.

In short,i piss on his grave....

by former trotskyist Tue Jul 08, 2003 17:02

Che was a man of action unlike most Trotskist parties and unlike middle class posers such as (A) who would not know a revolution if it was staring them in the face. This is why middle class wasters such as (A) and 'Trotskyist' parties such as the SWP hate Che. A few Trotskyists such as the Pathfinder press group actually have a good position on Cuba and on Che, but most are useless.

by Ghuk Mon Jul 07, 2003 20:30

Perhaps you don't remember, but the last people killed by Franco were Txiki and Otaegi (both basque volunteers) and Baena, Sanchez and Garcia (spanish anti-fascists). In 1975. Between spanish leftists is very common to consider basque independentist-leftist as enemies. "lo primero es la unidad de españa", you know.

by Jim Monaghan Mon Jul 07, 2003 14:49

I have always thought of Che as one of the great inspirational figures of the era. One of those who caused real problems for Imperialism. Che was genuinely trying to seek a way forward in Cuba. His attempt to break the isolation of the Cuban revolution and cause problems for American Imperialism (at that stage slaughtering the Vietnamese) was incredibly brave. The pity is that it was unsuccessful.
See the website below for a publication which covers Ches relationship with Trotskyism. He was not that hostile to it.
The article in question was by a guy called Gary Tennant. A search on Google for Tennant will yield somethings. Che died to make things better. I don't doubt he made mistakes. At least he tried and had some success. His life should be celebrated.
http://www.revolutionaryhistory.co.uk/backissu.htm

by (A) Mon Jul 07, 2003 04:57

You want some arguments?Well,here it is....

“Group in favour of the revision of the process Granado and Delgado�

Since we fought against the dictatorship of Franco we consider it to be a moral duty to bring our solidarity to those, that suffer because of their struggle for the same freedom that we, anti-franquist, used to fight for.

It should not be a surprise that we support today the Cuban dissidents that are again the victims of the hands of repression of the Castrist dictatorship. And this not only because they are asking the same things that we demanded during the Franco era but because Castro has managed to beat Franco’s brutal repression: sentences of up to 25 years for the only “crime� of dissent, and capital punishment because three young men hijacked a ferry boat to escape Cuba. And on top of that, it is more drastic: five days to detain, judge and execute three young black men that desired to send themselves in exile, and that did not hurt nor kill anybody. To execute the anti-franquists Francisco Granado and Joaquin Delgado, Franco “waited� 17 days. En both cases: partial, exaggerated justice with fast judgement, without any legal guarantee, behind closed doors, without the presence of international observers, and executions done in the early morning, to convince, to terrorize...

But the points in common do not stop there... Like Franco, and with the same “logic�, Castro also thinks that “whoever is not with him is against him�. The identical conviction of being the chosen gurus: of God, for Franco, and of History, for Castro. For that reason both the Franquist and Castrist dictatorships are asphyxiating, without press, opinion, dissidence or free associations, with unique party, unique trade union and, above all, a Maximum Leader, one voice, one thought. Also, of course, the longevity of absolute power: thirty-six years for Franco, and forty-four years for Castro.

Forty-four years to create a jailed and miserable paradise for most Cubans! A “paradise� in which the doors must be sealed so that workers can’t escape from there. Because of this Fidel needs the confusion and impunity to save the revolutionary myth.

But the facts do not lie, and almost half a century after the triumph of the rebellion against the Batista dictatorship, the intolerance, the authoritarianism in the name of State security, the arrogance and inefficiency of the bureaucracy have changed the revolution into a nightmare for the Cuban people and an economical fiasco that has increased the exterior dependence of Cuba. With Batista that was with the US, with Castro it was, first, with the Soviet Union and later, as before, with Tourism (and prostitution)

Of course, Castrism blames this evils on the North American embargo, continuing to ignore its own failure in the economy, and what is worst: the active worker participation in the production process, why would they do it if they have seen so many unfulfilled promises of equality and freedom? How can anyone reproach their lack of interest if they are sick and tired of always being the ones sacrificing themselves “in the interest of the Revolution�: the continuity of castrist State!

All these reasons are the ones that led us to decide to make it public our indignation against the last and violent repression carried out by Castrism. This is a regime that still pretends to represent the goals of a revolutionary movement that has given so many hopes and whose Commandant in Chief’s thirst for power have perverted, generating a disappointment very similar to the one created by the Russian Revolution.

Without a doubt there are still those intransigent to the regime, that continue believing in the mystic of the “Cuban Revolution�. Those are the ones that keep ignoring this undeniable evidence: the Revolution has become totalitarian system, anti-democratic and of collective vigilance so that each one spy or denounce their neighbours o co-worker.

Yes, there are still those that remain unmoved by the moral corrosion that this power has established in the quotidian life of Cubans, that fits so well to the dark and secret fascist control – “progresist� version - imposed by that Stalinian totalitarianism – Caribbean version – decided to drive the Cuban people to a tragic end. For this reason, those that of us who still believe in the freedom and justice values, that were always part of the Left, we have to denounce this Regime that is stepping all over them, even thought it demagogically claims to defend them. And this even more so in these moments, when Fidel, like Franco in the end, is forcing many families to go through a cruel repression, justified with lie: “conspiration�. Because it is a lie to accuse of conspiration people that are either trying to reclaim the right to freedom or trying to escape the island to continue with a better life.

It is true that the Cuban dissidence started to loose fear, to come out of the closet, and this worried Fidel Castro and his mafiosos bureaucrats. This explains the proclamation of the Mordaza Law (to severely punish the collaboration with “foreign communication medium� or to produce and spread “anti-socialist� done to “destabilize the internal order�) and the declaration of the “eternity� of the Castrist Socialism. Both designed to be used in the most opportune moment...

A moment that came thanks to Bush, or, possibly, when Bush needed it the most: to justify his aggressive policy in the name of the defence of Democracy! It is possible that Castro thought this was the moment to act violently against the dissidence because the international public opinion was busy mobilizing itself against the war in Iraq and denouncing the hegemony of the North American State. Yes, it is possible that he thought that anti-imperialism would ignore the consequences of his new repressive campaign and that the latter would not give Bush arguments to “implement democracy�, the Yankee democracy! And, in a way, he was not wrong; because not only Bush has not insisted much in denouncing the repression against the Cuban dissidence, but neither did the international public opinion. Yes, it is true, in the beginning many outstanding intellectuals opposed it, some of them for the first time; but this did not lead to massive protests, to mobilisations or to permanent denunciations – as it happened when it spoke out against the absence of freedom for blacks in South Africa.

The reasons for this “indifference� are diverse. It is not only “how can we oppose the Cuban Revolution?�. It is also the lack of interest from political parties and from the Governments in helping such mobilizations. This is caused not only because there are a lot of commercial interests… Also, in some anti-totalitarian sectors, there is a fear of being assimilated to the extreme-right elements (a minority but very powerful in Miami) of the anti-castrism opposition that ask for a Yankee intervention in Cuba.

Thus, even though these reasons explain the general resignation in relation to the repressive excesses of Castro’s dictatorship , we think it is our duty to expose today and tomorrow an oppression that we condemn and will keep condemning always. We do it and will continue because, to us too, “dissent is an undeniable act of conscience� and the death sentence is an act of State terrorism, even when the latter claims to be revolutionary.

How could we forget that, in 2003, it will be forty years that another dictatorship, the Franquist one, killed with similar justifications the Communist Julian Grimau and the young Anarchists Francisco Granado and Joaquin Delgado.


Madrid, June 2003.

Octavio Alberola: 1967 y 1974, jailed 1 year and 3 months.
Juan Busquets: sentenced to death in 1949, jailed 20 years.
Stuart Christie: 1964, jailed 3 years.
Luis Andrés Edo: 1966, jailed 8 years.
José Gracia Chile: 1939, jailed 2 years.
Antonia Lisbona: 1939, jailed 6 years.
Eloy Martín Nieto: 1972, jailed 3 years.
Alicia Mur Sin: 1966, jailed 3 years.
Alain Pecunia: 1962, jailed 3 years.
José L. Pons Llobet: 1974, jailed 3 years.
Jaime Pozas de V.: 1968, jailed 5 years.
Floreal Rodríguez: 1968, jailed 8 years.
Gregorio Rojas: 1963, jailed 1 year and 6 months.
Francisca Román: 1962, jailed 6 years.
Andrés Ruiz Grimas: 1972, jailed 3 years.
Juan Salcedo: 1963, jailed 15 years.
Emilio Santiago: sentenced to death in 1947, jailed 15 years.
David Urbano: 1967, jailed 7 years.

Contact: movimientolibertariocubano@yahoo.com.mx

by (A) Sun Jul 06, 2003 02:26

..they cannot take it when you insult their heroes. How sad and pathetic.

Well,Sometime you will have to wake up to the thruth.Welcome to the REAL world,assholes!

Oh...and Che Guevara and Castro can STILL go and fuck themself!

by Oisin Sat Jul 05, 2003 18:26

instead of putting the point across all you do is cram your point down peoples necks with ignorant rant like (A) calling che a stalinist and pissing on his grave shut the fuck was do that prove or change. To Seanin is the system capitalism that doesnt work or at least in any good way. I dont know bout FARC doesnt america condemn everybody they dont like with that, you might not like them but i seriously doubt they are drug dealers. Oh and dont confuse the IRA with the UDA who are the NI equivalent of the mafia.

by (A) Sat Jul 05, 2003 15:59

...and im an anarchist,you fool!

by trot watch Sat Jul 05, 2003 13:58

to enslave the third world and the rest of us. However 'A' is a far more insidious little trot, he is just so consumed by his loser trotskyist dogma that he would actually prefer if the Cuban people were still ruled by the puppet ruler Batista and his USA masters. These losers really hate Che, Fidel and Chavez etc because they actually suceeded in doing something other than just being irrelevant and knocking the rest of the left.

by Seainín Sat Jul 05, 2003 03:56

Wake up you morons. People don't want to be enslaved by an ideology. They want to be free and freedom is to own your own property, work for whoever you like and travel wherever you want. None of this is possible under communist central planning.

Why am I wasting my breath on you morons. You people are just a bunch of malcontents.

by (A) Sat Jul 05, 2003 03:38

...no,he was a brutal coldblooded stalinist killer! Fuck Che Guevara and fuck Castro too!

by bored Fri Jul 04, 2003 23:21

so quit while you are ahead,because this pat D is totally nuts and will keep boring everyone with his foolishness. As for Che, it is predictable that the loser trots will try to smear him, or Fidel, Chavez or anyone with enough charisma to get ordinary people to actually listen. Che is guilty of not being a boring loser trot and of doing something that they never will- winning a revolution!

by Raymond McInerney Fri Jul 04, 2003 19:36

"The true revolutionary is guided by a great feeling of love."
Che Guevara (1928 - 1967)

by Terry Fri Jul 04, 2003 18:56

Do your rantings seem to make sense to you?

by pat c Fri Jul 04, 2003 18:42

all of those i mentioned were loyalist paramilitaries or like Edgar Graham and Robert Bradford of the UUP had links with loyalist paramilitaries since at least their vanguard days.

i think the targetting of construction & delivery workers at army & ruc bases was wrong. teebane etc could only have been seen as sectarian murder by the protesrant community.

same goes for any general attacks on protestants. the Frizzels shop bombing was insane, even if the uda leadership had been upstairs there would still have been civilian casualties.

by Pat D Fri Jul 04, 2003 18:38

Caaaaalm down. I know you are getting madder and madder with each post.

by Pat D Fri Jul 04, 2003 18:36

(I support the murder of) "Or loyalists for that matter."

Just curious. What do you define as a loyalist? (Note: I am certainly no loyalist.) What about a protestant family that lives in a protestant area in Belfast, and has no connections to Loyalist paramilitary vermin. She still might consider herself a "loyalist".

Do you support the murder of that whole family? I mean, they might be considered Loyalists. The IRA have murdered innocent families in the past, you know.

by Terry Fri Jul 04, 2003 18:33

As you rant on and on you are showing that you are more juvenile than I first suspected. This obsessive compulsive behaviour can be cured with suitable treatment. What you require is cognitative therapy, the assistance of a Psychologist rtather than a Psychiatrist.

Hopefully your parents are monitoring your internet use and will arrange for this.

by pat c Fri Jul 04, 2003 18:28

" Yes, yes, keep trying to justify the murder of over 3000 people (the majority of which were innocent civilians) in northern Ireland over the last 30 years."

I think you will find that the Brits and Loyalists were responsible for half of those deaths. I have never supported the killing of civilians.

But I lose no sleep over the deaths of "British" soldiers or RUC. Or loyalists for that matter.

On the rare occasions when I have a problem getting to sleep, I recite the names of loyalist fascists executed by republicans:

Bratty, Elders, Marchant, McKeague, Bradford, Seawright, Smallwood, Allen, MacMichael, Graham, Wright, Smyth, Craig,Hamilton, King, Truesdale,Guiney, Dougan, Deeney, Black, Johnston, Love,Ferguson,Sproule,McKnight, Lynch, Hanna, Ward, Kingsberry,Mehaffey, Skey, Caldwell ....
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

(sweet dreams)

by Pat D Fri Jul 04, 2003 18:07

I can just imagine the various Indymedia people sitting at computers, getting more irate with each new post about Che Guevera T-Shirts and Pat C's support of the 'RA.

"Grrrr, I'll show that Pat D... Take THAT!" ...Types blubber about t-shirts in the "Socio-Polical context"

by Pat D Fri Jul 04, 2003 18:06

I can just imagine the various Indymedia people sitting at computers, getting more irate with each new post about Che Guevera T-Shirts and Pat C's support of the 'RA.

"Grrrr, I'll show that Pat D... Take THAT!"

by Pat D Fri Jul 04, 2003 18:05

I can just imagine the various Indymedia people sitting at computers, getting more irate with each new post about Che Guevera T-Shirts and Pat C's support of the 'RA.

"Grrrr, I'll show that Pat D... Take THAT!" .

by Terry Fri Jul 04, 2003 17:59

You are continuing to make a fool of yourself. You composed a rant about t-shirts which would embarass a 12 year old. You then drag irrelevant (to the thread)topics into the discussion. Raving about the IRAs, FARC, drug dealing, Colombia and Death Squads. From the way you carried on,you seemed to have very little adult level understanding of the realities of Colombia.

Pat C and his opinions do not coincide with mine but he has made it clear that he opposes the targetting of civilians. Yet you keep repeating the self same charges, which on the evidence befire us are groundless.


Your wretched obsession with him suggests you have a stalker type personality. This combined with your adolescent behaviour makes someone who would be dfangerous if he didnt solely live out his fantasies on a PC.

Grow up.

by Curious Fri Jul 04, 2003 17:59

Boyd and left unity??

by Pat D Fri Jul 04, 2003 17:52

Yes Pat C, you keep on trying to persuade yourself that the IRA/FARC aren't murderous scumbags. Yes, yes, keep trying to justify the murder of over 3000 people (the majority of which were innocent civilians) in northern Ireland over the last 30 years.

by Pat D Fri Jul 04, 2003 17:49

I still can't believe you saw my T-Shirt selling post and decided to write:

"No. You are just carrying in a way which suggests you are disturbed. The way you raised the t-shirts lacked any context within the ongoing discussion. You stated that you had bought thes shirts and were going to make a 900% profit. This was not witty, it made no point political or otherwise."

What a nerd.

by Terry Fri Jul 04, 2003 17:44

You are showing yourself to be a disturbed adolescent, no matter what your physical age might be.

Just try and grow up.

by pat c Fri Jul 04, 2003 17:43

"I support neither Right-wing death squads nor Left-Wing terrorists. Both are equally as evil. "

What about State death squads? Why the silence on them?

"You, on the other hand, support terrorist scum (FARC/IRC)."

I certainly support FARC in their struggle against the totalitarian Colombian State. Tens of thousands have been mudered by the Colombian State and their allies.

Normal politics are not possible in Colombia. When the guerilla group M 19 laid down their weeapons and formed a political party, 3,000 of them were murdered by the State and Rightwing death squads.

To be a community activist, a peasant organiser, a shop steward, this is enough to get you killed by the State & their allies in Colombia.

But you know all this you support the murder of innocent civilians. Deal with it.

As for "IRC"? Of course I support the Irish Red Cross.

I hope you get the help you need.

by Pat D Fri Jul 04, 2003 17:40

Okay, okay. All those T-shirts are now SOLD. I've made a handy E900 profit that I will now spend on stuff that I like. Y'know: CDs, Clothes, various luxury items that I can't buy in Cuba.

And I made all this profit within a "socio-political context". Excellent. Next time, I'll have some "Karl Marx" Undies that I can profit from using the "context within the ongoing discussion". Can't wait.

God, you Indymedia people are such geeky losers. But it's a great way of creating entertainment on a slow Friday at work. I never realised how easy it was.

by Pat D Fri Jul 04, 2003 17:31

I support neither Right-wing death squads nor Left-Wing terrorists. Both are equally as evil.

You, on the other hand, support terrorist scum (FARC/IRC).

Therefore, you support the murder of innocent civilians. Deal with it.

by Terry Fri Jul 04, 2003 17:30

No. You are just carrying in a way which suggests you are disturbed. The way you raised the t-shirts lacked any context within the ongoing discussion. You stated that you had bought thes shirts and were going to make a 900% profit. This was not witty, it made no point political or otherwise.

The simulated laugh and subsequent half baked attempts at political criticism which amounted to little more than childish abuse did nothing to convince anyone that you were a reasonable adult. Many people on this site detest IRAs of all varieties and undemocratic private armies. The intelligent ones will however weigh all actions in their socio-political context.

Crude abuse and sophomoric formulations will not convince anyone that you have a valid case to make.

Grow up.

by Durutti Fri Jul 04, 2003 17:21

You sound soooooo familiar. Now isnt this the same D4 line King Mob used to come out with? The manic cackle sounds the same as well.

Uncovered!

by pat c Fri Jul 04, 2003 17:19

"like yourself that think that those who hate the (Real/Cont./Prov.)IRA are automatically supporters of the British."

As is well known i do not bsupport the real ira or cira.

How about the millions killed by "British" Imperialism? That doesnt bother you does it?

How about the tens of thousands of Colombians kiled by the Army Police and Right Wing death squads?

Do YOU support this? Try speaking to the families of the bereaved and see how far you get with Pro State Violence crap..


You are the one who carries on like a raving lunatic. Is that HA HA HA supposed to be a rational comment? Is your T shirt looney tune meany to be some soet of post modern joke?

I sleep quite well at night, thank you.

I guess you will have to drink yourself to sleep again tonight with the cheap gin.

by Pat D Fri Jul 04, 2003 16:59

Terry, I always laugh whenever I see people wearing Che Guevera T-Shirts. They're almost always "D4" heads, with nice posh Dublin accents and parents that drives a Merc. Sort of a teenage Fight-Da-Power "phase". Given a few years, they're soon working in Daddy's accountancy firm in Blackrock.

by Pat D Fri Jul 04, 2003 16:55

Actually, unlike you I HAVE a life. So only ever read Indymedia.ie about once a month, normally to read (with sickening disgust) the opinions of narrow-minded IRA-supporting scumbags like yourself that think that those who hate the (Real/Cont./Prov.)IRA are automatically supporters of the British.

Speaking of "having a life", I'm actually grateful to have one, unlike the 704 *innocent* civilians murdered by republican paramilitary Vermin, or the 818 *innocent* civilians murdered by loyalist paramilitary Vermin between 1969 and 1994. (Source: Fay, Morrissey & Smyth) Even more deaths occured after that. Remember Omagh? Or do you support bombs which removed limbs from people also, caused permanent blindness, murdered 29 innocent men, women and children?

How about the FARC bomb recently exploded inside a church that resulted in over 100 innocent civilian deaths?

Do YOU support this? Try speaking to the families of the bereaved and see how far you get with IRA/FARC balderdash.

I'm not sure how you even sleep at night.

You obviously do not have the intelligence to figure out how deranged your thinking is. See you next month, you idiot.

by Terry Fri Jul 04, 2003 16:55

Sectarianism and infighting are bad enough but this guy is barking. Does he think the stuff about the t-shirts is funny or what.

by pat c Fri Jul 04, 2003 16:35

havent you got anything rational to say?

cant you even invent an original name for yourself?

and yes, as everyone here knows i do support the ira & farc against imperialism.

the stark way in which you portray this though majkes me suspect that you support both "british" loyalist drug dealing deatht squads and colombian right wing & state drug dealing death squads.

by Pat D Fri Jul 04, 2003 16:22

Just a reminder to everyone that Pat C thinks that IRA/FARC aren't drug-dealing murderous terrorist scum - but rather freedom fighters fighting for a "cause"

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Come and get those T-Shirts, before I put up the price to E12.

And no, I'm certainly not with the SP.

by pat c Fri Jul 04, 2003 15:31

Who so frequently expresses his love for me.He would never sell off soddy goods at such a profit.

Sigh....

Even my detractors are impersonated.

by Pat D Fri Jul 04, 2003 15:22

Hi,

I have 100 Che Guevera T-shirts for sale. I bought them for E1 each, and will sell them for E10 each. A tidy profit of E900. Nice.

COME AND GET THEM, LOOK TRENDY AND COOL TO YOUR MIDDLE-CLASS FRIENDS, BE POPULAR WITH THE LADIES THAT LOOK LIKE THEY GIVE A SHIT!

by Davidovich Fri Jul 04, 2003 15:18

Why dont you all lay off poor Steven Boyd. No one works so tirelessly for the cause. He's works marning, noon and night to promote left unity. In fact, contrary to his sectarian image, he's liaseing very closely with the SWP these days. As if that isnt enough he has to trilocate by being in Cork, Belfast and Dublin at the same time attending to the needs of the oppressed.

Give him a break girls and boys, sure he hardly gets any time off these days.

by Durutti Fri Jul 04, 2003 14:25

Stephen Boyd of the SP told us how the USSR under Lenin Trotsky was the highest form of Socialist Democracy achieved so far!

Unions banned, all opposition parties banned, all opposition within The Party banned, labour militarised, strikes banned, strikers shot, anarchists shot, opposition bolsheviks shot, Left SRs shot.

Wow! Thats really some democracy!

by Mr Angry Fri Jul 04, 2003 13:49

I'm always amazed why fascist scum like him, Castro, Stalin, Mao etc. etc. still have their cheerleaders. Guess that's what happens when you never had to live under their muderous ideologies

by Jim Fri Jul 04, 2003 12:40

Pee on his grave if you dare, but it's all organic really. Che's remains have fertilized the ground, so will your piss, and you too will eventually.

They can destroy the body but not the soul. Like Joe Hill, what they forgot to kill went on to organize...

Venceremos!

by depp Fri Jul 04, 2003 11:27

Che's grandmother was NOT born in Ireland.

As you state in the article, his grandmother's roots were in Ireland, but it is unknown what county.

Che was a fantastic man, but he was not perfect.

I'm sure a little drop of piss on his grave will really worry anyone, you fucking retard (A).

by (A) Fri Jul 04, 2003 07:09

Che guevara was a stalinist murderer piece of shit,just like Castro is. I piss on his grave!

FREE THE CUBAN PEOPLE! THEY HAVE SUFFERED ENOUGH UNDER CASTROS STATECAPITALIST SYSTEM!NOW ITS TIME FOR A REAL REVOLUTION!AN ANARCHIST REVOLUTION!THATS THE ONLY THING THAT WILL MAKE THE CUBAN PEOPLE TRUELY FREE!

by cynical commie Thu Jul 03, 2003 22:33

seems like castro wants to use the memory of the revolutionary che geuvara to distract the cuban people from their present oppression. as to swearing alligeance to the flag, it seems extremely ironic that a similar pratice takes place in the schools of its arch enemy across the water.