Jonathan Neale to speak in Belfast

by Major Woody Mon Aug 25, 2003 13:53

You forgot to mention that he is a leading SWPer and was centrally involved in setting up the GR front for the SWP. Also he is often one of the SWP's representatives to the ESF organising meetings.

by Anonymous Mon Aug 25, 2003 14:20

Well done Dan.

by icepick Mon Aug 25, 2003 16:41

I joined while I was working for the court service... knew I was against capitalism and they were the only group of revolutionaries around.

Then just found out they spent their whole time running around like headless chickens (and trying to get me to do the same) telling me that the revolution was just around the corner... spent an absolutely awful time when my area organiser took me down to patronise a bunch of striking posties on the picket line.

Then gradually questioned how their State would "wither away", found out more about Lenin + Trotsky crushing the russian revolution, not making it, and then fucked off.

I got in SW a couple of times before leaving, tho

by Dan Buckley - GR Belfast Mon Aug 25, 2003 18:13

Sorry, Should have said it is on Monday 1st september.

Dan

by Anonymous Mon Aug 25, 2003 18:26

That is dissapointing indeed icepick. But don't give up on left wing politics. There is a whole host of groups and parties out there today that badly need your support.

And over the last few years things have been growing rapidly but need to grow even faster still.

Hope the meedting goes well Dan.

by Spar wid me Mon Aug 25, 2003 19:41

Is the meeting open to all, or just those holding student cards.
It's time we had anti student discrimination just as Queens practises discrimination against non students.

Non students are not entitled to use Queens facilities, and if they do, they must pay more money than students with Queens students cards.

It's time pubs and venues in working class areas, practised the same discrimination as Queens does against non students, its time our entertainment and leisure centres counter discriminated against privileged Queens students entering our entertainment and leisure facilities and charge privileged student wankers little more in terms of entrance fees than ordinary members of the public.

by nod and smile Mon Aug 25, 2003 20:16

Why are students always getting discounts and special treatment/ gift packs from banks etc.

Is it because the system thinks middle class student wankers are cleverer than ordinary working class people, and therefore are somehow more superior and deserve better than the rest of us.

Is it because the system knows that todays rowdy high jinks student bastard is tomorrows middle class snobby tax paying DHSS professional arselickas.

Is it because many student wankers are from middle class privileged professional families, with mammy and daddykins both working professionals.

by Fintan Lane Mon Aug 25, 2003 21:05

Sounds like an interesting meeting. I read an excellent book by Neale in the late 1980s (titled The Cutlass and Lash), which dealt with mutiny and resistance in Nelson's navy. Well worth a read, though it's probably out of print by now.

by ho ho kronsdat Mon Aug 25, 2003 21:45

So icepick you joined the swp while working for the court sevice did you.You knew you were against capitalism but you were working for the court service .Serving who? Are you still working for the court service? Anonomymous thinks there are some goodgroups that you could join.Why don't you try the prison service. Please keep away from left wing politics though we could do without your type.

by trot Mon Aug 25, 2003 23:47

funny how we continue to come in for stupid abuse every time we try to do something. Is it possible that it is the very sucess of the swp that annoys? Catch yourselves on

by No 6 Tue Aug 26, 2003 00:48

Sucess? um sucess?

What sucess would that be?

Um creating a socialist uptopia? Nope.

Having anyone elected anywhere? Nope.

Stopping the war in iraqi? Um nope.

Um achieving anything other than sweet FA? Nope.

Getting a bunch of people out on Feb 15th (when you were riding on a crest of public support, rather than moblising YOUR people) is not a sucess, selling more papers is not a sucess.

You're a joke.

by Ciaran Tue Aug 26, 2003 11:11

"Please keep away from left wing politics though we could do without your type" - ho,ho, Kronstadt's comment just goes to show that the term "left wing politics" is an oxymoron, contradiction in terms; whatever you want to call it. There is no "politics" to much of the so-called left wing in Ireland (the far left at any rate) - just shameless posturing, posing and an all round detachment from the reality of most people's lives combined with a large dose of utter stupidity, exemplified in this instance by ho,ho Kronstadt's comments. He/she could do us a big favour by posting a full list of those occupational groups and "types" who should "keep away from left wing politics".

Icepick, don't give up there are plenty of options - keep searching and you'll find something.

Ho, ho Kronstadt - if you don't have anything positive to say - say nothing - I know it's difficult when you are alway's "right" about every conceivable political issue - but give it a try.

by Bullet for Roy Green, want one too? Tue Aug 26, 2003 15:16

I don't mind the SWP, SP or sinn fein, but I can't stand student wankers.

by No 6 Tue Aug 26, 2003 15:21

and the left really aren't on speaking terms, but at least I'm not inventing victories.

getting mass numbers out (when they're not even your supporters, you've just riding a wave) does not equal sucess,achieving something equals sucess, and in that respect SWP have achieved sweet FA.

I over heard Joe Carolan in Doyles after one of the anti war demos boasting about how many members the SWP had garnered in the previous few months (this was in early march). This to him and his bosses is what quantifies sucess.

I wonder how many of those members are still doing paper sales? And how many have been driven off left wing politics by your fucking party.

Enjoy your sucess trot.

by cockneyrebel Tue Aug 26, 2003 16:56

The CPGB have just exposed Globalise Resistance for what it is to the Italians, French etc in the ESF in a letter they wrote to them apparently. Again the SWP utterly dishonestly tried to present GR as a large organisation and as THE anti-capitalist organisation in the UK. It started off as 1500 at the 1st conference and a year later was about 250. This year it was 150. All due to the way the SWP acted in GR, and this is proved by the fact that external circumstances, if anything, have improved. GR no longer has a functioning branch in the country, yet the SWP were totally dishonest about this in the ESF......just one more example of how the SWP operates.

by No 8 Tue Aug 26, 2003 17:26

I doubt whether many of these comments are from people genuinely on the left. A perfectly reasonable notice of a perfectly reasonable meeting is greeted with innuendos and bad mouthing. And all the bad mouthers are sitting around moaning not doing a hand's turn to (except with their right hand that is).
How many of you moaners are cops?

by Badman Tue Aug 26, 2003 18:06

I'll field that one larry. None.

It might come as a huge surprise to some SWP members, but the party is despised by virtually every single leftist who is not a member. Try this: at the next demo you are on, go around to all the non-SWP people and ask them what they think of the SWP. You'll find that there is no need to find cops to bad-mouth the SWP; many, many people on the left are self-motivated enough to do so.

Aside from this, it makes me chuckle to imagine the mental universe of the boy bolsheviks that they think the cops would be spending their time slagging them off on indymedia.

The slagging doesn't come from nowhere. It is dishonest in the extreme to promote this meeting with the impression that the speaker is independent. It's like advertising a meeting on spirituality with a speaker (and leading author) representing the American spiritual society, without mentioning that he is also a leader of the moonies. Come to think of it, that's exactly what the moonies would do; this is the behaviour of a cult and all your protestations about victimisation will serve you no good.

There is an easy answer though. CHANGE YOUR FUCKING BEHAVIOUR. STOP ACTING LIKE A CULT. LEARN SOME ETHICS. STOP LYING TO PEOPLE. TRUST PEOPLE TO HAVE ALL THE INFORMATION. Then the moaning will surely dry up. It's in your hands.

by Jack Kemp - None Tue Aug 26, 2003 18:49

Perhaps Badman, swp is despised by all your drinking buddies and the other do-nothings you hang around with.

I am not a swimmie but I enjoyed the writings of Neale that I have read. I see swpas political activists who try to do stuff. Some of what they say I agree with some not, but I don't see where you got off with your rant.

I would be interested in hearing Neale speak and your shock revelation does nothing to dissuade me.

Perhaps in the interests of trusing people with all the information you Badman would indicate your political positions. You don't seem to put much priority on fighting the millionaires and Bush crowd to judge by your contributions to this site.

Everyone has an agenda--even you

by VIL - SWP Tue Aug 26, 2003 18:59

Although its sickening that anything posted about the SWP on indymedia tends to cause a frenzy of bad mouthing over the tiniest of issues, i agree with the postings regarding being open about speakers membership. Afterall jonathan neale is a memeber of the SWP in GR, he is a revolutionary socialist within a movement just like there are greens and autonomists etc, it does not make him less an anti-captalist. Why not be open, after all won't he argue for revolution just like the rest of us regardless of whether he is talking on a GR platfrom?

by Badman Tue Aug 26, 2003 19:20

Why doesn't this surprise me?

Unlike the SWP, Jack, I'll answer your points.

1) You don't know who my buddies are, whether I drink, or how much my buddies do. I was talking about left activists when I said that the majority despise the SWP. Maybe the word 'despise' is a bit strong, but you get the meaning. Check it out, perform badman's straw poll at the next demo you are at. Maybe it doesn't apply to you, but are you an activist? I generally find that people who aren't active aren't aware of the antics of the SWP and tend to give them the benefit of the doubt. On the other hand, if you've ever sat on a committee with them, cooperated in a campaign with them or whatever, you soon learn that they are a slippery beast indeed.

2) The question is not whether or not people are interested in hearing Neale speak (I might be for all you know), but why they choose not to reveal his primary political affiliation. I put forward the theory that it is a ploy to present the speaker as an unaligned activist from a broad movement, intended to hook in unsuspecting newcomers in the classic cult-recruitment technique. In reply, you answered nothing and tried to change the subject to being about me. Nice try.

3) I am not advertising a meeting, I am not attempting to attract the public under false pretences, nothing that I have argued rests upon any details of my identity or activity. There is no compunction on me to reveal anything about myself. If the above comment was made by the cops, the CIA or by Osama Bin Laden, it wouldn't take away from the content of it (it would reveal other things, but the questions would still have to be answered on their own merit). This type of sloppy, ad-hominem argument irritates me, so I'm not going to bother defending myself. I am utterly irrelevant to this thread, the points that I made are, on the other hand.

4) Yes I have an agenda: it's called honesty, accountability and democracy. You should check it out some time; it gives you a warm fuzzy feeling inside.

by Anonymous Tue Aug 26, 2003 19:34

Badman,

On what evidence do you base your claim:-

"but the party is despised by virtually every single leftist who is not a member."??

I do indeed think the Swp have questions to answer but I think you and many others on this site are way too critical of them and seem too hell bent on it.

They have done an awful lot of work for the left on the ground and continue to do so. I would like to see you and others supporting this while at the same time raising your criticisms and demanding answers.

Do you yourself "despise" the Swp?

Regards,

by Bolshi Tue Aug 26, 2003 21:00

Badman piss off

by No 6 Tue Aug 26, 2003 23:06

Anonymous for the love of fuck will you quit swaning around the site, mildly agreeing with people are offering your support to all and sundry.

"Wow somebody who doesn't want to be named his gived me a thumbs up".

Specifically what exactly have the SWP done? EXACTLY.

Many of us have a genuine objection to the SWP no. 8, in fact many of us feel that the SWP does more harm than good to the left, and by strong arming people into joining, through fronts, making them go on papersales, they then grow dissillusioned, and frustrated with the "left" and walk away from activism.

many of us feel thats the SWP/GR/IAWM try to speak for us, and drown out other voices.

It's the honest opinion that the SWP have done more to drive people away from leftwing politics than any other group.

by Bemused Tue Aug 26, 2003 23:38

Get a grip please!! I don't much like the way the SWP behaves at times either (no more than I like the activities of other self-interested groups including the SP, WSM, and some of the weirder sects) but to say that they've caused more damage to the Left than, say, the Communist Party, Labour Party, Workers' Party, etc. etc. is complete rubbish.

Try and get some balance into your thinking, girls and boys. A chip on the shoulder is a poor motivator at the best of times.

by Badman Wed Aug 27, 2003 01:40

Why do I 'despise' the SWP?

I despise them because they are an active impediment to the emergance of any type of grassroots movement for social change. Their main contribution to society is to drive well-intentioned people away from social movements and revolutionary change. They are counter revolutionaries who capitalise on feelings of social discontent to recruit people into their cult.

I despise them in the same way as I despise capitalism, US republicans, Fianna Fail, the labour party and all the other con-artists of this so-called democratic world. I particularly despise them, however, because of their hypocrisy and because they breed on good intentions. For that reason they earn a special place among my dislikes, up there with the catholic church.

I prefer my enemies to be honest. At least the PDs are honest about wanting to fuck me over. At least the labour party don't claim to want to create a communist world. The SWP, for their part, claim to be snow-white revolutionaries who aim to create a communist world, while their practice is more sordid than the worst elements of capitalism.

They openly state that they want to recreate some of the bloodiest and most barbaric dictatorships the world has ever seen. They will kill me, you and most of their own if they are given a sniff of power. I have no qualms in saying I despise them as a party, although most of their members are thoroughly decent folk.

by bolsh Wed Aug 27, 2003 01:49

Baaadman catch a grip you just hate the SWP because you are a sad little git. NO evidence for the shite you come out with, now PISS OFF

by Davy - ?????????????????????????? Wed Aug 27, 2003 11:21

From HONEST DAVE W/ Belfast SWP and........... Northern Ireland Public Service allaince, GR, Belfast public Library, BAWM, Turf lodge credit union, IPSC, whiterock lesuire centre, Socialist alliance, Big Berthas Xmas club, Anti Racist campaign, Civil service benevolent fund, , Magic Mikes Radical rodeo disco, A&l Building society, Anti water charges group, the Blanket, BIFHE, tk writers group, Sam's morning milk dilivery round, low pay campaigns, Campaign against selection, Time line music group, sheila's home catalouge, Gay action by direct action, Belfast Social forum, hotmail.com, Maggies internet cafe, Kevin's computer club, etc etc. Signing off.

by Anonymous Wed Aug 27, 2003 12:33

Badman,

I asked, on what evidence do you base your claim:-

"but the party is despised by virtually every single leftist who is not a member."??

In your previous comments you prided yourself, and righfully I think in that instance, that you answer questions, unlike the Swp.

However you went off in an explanation on why "you" despise the Swp - and totally ignored my above question.

Do you now have any evidence on which you base your claim?

Regards,

by Anonymous Wed Aug 27, 2003 14:03

Chill out No. 6. It is true to say that I support most/all left-wing & humanitarian groups & individuals. It is the agenda & ideology of right wing/capitalist/neo-liberal groups and individuals that I am against.

I wish (left wing) people on this site would do the same.

I am not currently a member of the Swp so I can not give you a full detailed list of exactly what they have done.

All I know is that they do a huge amount of work on the ground (and above it), have been involved and very active in virtually every left wing campaign (Davy above gives you a taster of some of these campaigns) for God knows how long and are active all over the country.

I am not belittling or ignoring your objectives. I certainly feel they are way too strong but do feel the Swp have some questions to answer.

All I am really trying to find out is the extent of this problem with the Swp and what evidence there is to support it.

Regards.

by Badman Wed Aug 27, 2003 16:25

1. Personal observation of many years of activism, during which I have talked to a large number of activists, both unaligned and in various organisations including virtually every ex-member of the SWP that I know. As I said above, 'despise' is probably too strong a word, maybe 'dislike strongly' would have been more accurate.

2. The prevalence of anti-swp material on the internet eg: http://www.geocities.com/socialistwanker/ In print, eg: http://www.schnews.org.uk/mr.htm and on mailing lists and bulletin boards like indymedia.ie In fact virtually anywhere that lefties express themselves in English, we find a large body of anti-SWP material, out of all proportion with their size and importance.


Since there have been, to my knowledge, no systematic studies carried out on attitudes among the left towards the SWP, the evidence quoted above is the most 'scientific' available to me as an individual. Unfortunately, in order to replicate these findings, you would need to be an activist for years. Thus I have presented an alternative method of checking my results, badman's straw poll, as described above. Anybody who wants to test the accuracy of my conclusions can try it out, although it is a poor replacement for years of experience. It is very possible that my conclusions are wrong, since the subjective nature of this type of evidence gathering is well known. But I do try to separate out personal prejudice from fact in this type of thing and I'm confident that my conclusions are a reasonably accurate depiction of reality.

Hopefully, that'll be it for this thread from me. Although it might seem otherwise, I don't think the SWP are very important in the grand scheme of things. I got into this 'debate' as it contained a few of my pet hates: writing off criticism as the work of the cops and dismissing a legitimate criticism as sectarianism. Thereafter I've just had to defend what I wrote, which I generally do unless the critics are obvious trolls.

Finally, Davy, you know as well as I do that there is a huge difference between being a member of the SWP and of those other campaign groups. Members of the SWP carry out SWP policy within campaign groups. As I said above, when a Moonie recruiter is addressing a meeting, the important piece of information for the audience is that he is a Moonie, not whatever broad campaigns / fronts he is also a member of.

by Yossarian Wed Aug 27, 2003 17:01

Anonymous,
The extent of the problem is quite serious in the activist scene. There are no surveys done on activists' attitudes to the SWP and you do not believe the people who report their experiences here so I suggest that you "perform badman's straw poll at the next demo you are at....go around to all the non-SWP people and ask them what they think of the SWP".
Then report back here.

The questions that you agree the SWP should answer are not minor irritants but major impediments to freedom and democracy in the eyes of (you will see how) many activists. Many people hold that the end does not justify the means. Dictatorial authority in a revolutionary situation will not result in a peoples democracy, it will result in a dictatorship. So they might redistribute all the wealth but according to what guidelines, the ones drawn up by the people or the ones drawn up by the political committee? Does it matter to you?

There are two main criticisms. The first concerns their lack of democratic structures. This applies internally within their party (ask anyone who has been with them and left, there are many) and externally in their interactions with other groups (ask members of any group who has worked with them, there are many, most of whom wouldn't go within spitting distance of them again).

The second criticism is their love of setting up 'front' groups. These are usually topical at the time (GR, ANL, IAWM) and in themselves are not necessarily a problem. The problem is that they never acknowledge that they set up the group, preferring to pretend that some concerned people just happened to set up the group when in fact the committee, speakers, etc are all SWP members. Obviously when people find out they've been hoodwinked into supporting a political party they had no intention of supporting they leave, sometimes with a bad attitude towards activist groups. There are many more criticisms one could make but I believe the two above to be the most common. Ok, perhaps one more I would sneak in is that they never, EVER, address these issues. The proof of this will be the lack of responses to the criticisms on this page of course.

So not only are their methods undemocratic and deceitful, their effect on would be activists is disastrous.

But don't take my word for it, ask around for yourself.

by Yossarian Wed Aug 27, 2003 17:04

I appear to have duplicated some of what Badman wrote above. I didn't see his post before publishing mine.

by Anonymous Wed Aug 27, 2003 17:27

Thank you for your above responses to my question - answers which I think needed to aired properly, rather than just "sound bites" as you see around this site which often come acoss as mere moans and begrudgements.

Only had time to skim through your replies above -will do so in more detail later and repsond.

Regards.

by Oowsit Said Wed Aug 27, 2003 20:51

There's certainly a lot of antipathy to the SWP.They should do the straw poll themselves or get somebody else to do it for them -it never does any harm to know what people think of you.But why not the SP as well ,or the anarchists for that matter.
BTW why has indymedia got exclamation marks on the publish now and edit again clickers

by Davy Carlin - W/Belfast SWP Thu Aug 28, 2003 11:58 carlindavid at hotmail dot com

Badman and Yossarian you make some points that I wish to reply to. You say your 'conclusions are a reasonably accurate depiction of reality' and that our party is 'despised' or disliked strongly by 'virtually every single leftist who is not a member'. YOu say there is no 'study etc and it your understanding as an individual. You the make a point that SWP members carry out SWP policy within campaigns and that the committees, speakers etc are all SWP .

Firstly on the latter all parties have policy and all parties come into campaigns working within that policy it would difficult to see why they would be in a party if they did not believe in its policy and thus bring those beliefs and understandings into campaigns
Secondly we work in various long term campaigns and solidarity groups in Belfast that were not initiated by the SWP and with others from various political groups and backrounds. We have and do with others put these into the spotlight as that is our priority, and we all work well together.
Thirdly all campaigns have also their aims objectives and indeed sometimes policys so those within these campaigns also carry out that campaigns agreed policy.
This is not something strange but is purely politics, all parties have policy, and members carry them forward, some campaigns have policy and the campaigns carry them forward.

I think by reading what you have written your problem may lay more with 'Parties' or indeed democratic centralism, thats a different matter based on political understanding.

IF though for some reason you believe only that the SWP brings their 'policies' or political understanding into campaigns, I will deal with the issues you rise.

Firstly you rise that we are strongly disliked by virtually everyone on the left. I am sorry but I must be Blunt and say this is absolute rubbish in relation to what I have and do experience. We in the North with most of the main known left organisations, leading community and trade union activists etc in the North ,are coming to the final stages of establishing together a platform for Socialist Unity.

We also work within many campaigns in Belfast which we had not initiated but put the work in on the ground as we believe in the issue. For example I am an active member of the IPSC which has many different groups involved and was not initiated by the SWP. When it comes to speakers I argue for Palestian speakers as they are to the fore front and hold many capable speakers, we do not chair the meetings, we do not convene the meetings, nevertheless we are an active and important part of the campaign. This is reflected in a number of campaigns we are involved in.

We in Belfast work in many campaigns with leading Trade unions, political left parties, solidarity groups, individuals, campaign groups etc and by and large I honestly can say that not a bad word is said to us or about us by these people and all are more than willing to work with us. Of course there are individuals or individual who is known as the 'old Dinosuar' in various left circles who clings on to dreams of yesteryear but he has become irrelevant now in such circles due to his behaviour

Here is but three very recent examples of our working with others that does not stand up to your conclusions

We have attempted with others to build such a platform of socialist unity in the North which is in its final stages this is not only a Historical initiative but how could it have worked if people thought such of us?

Last week at a meeting in Belfast {not called by the SWP} it was proposed that a second meeting should take place. It was proposed by a leading figure in the Norths largest human rights group and by a leading figure in another of the largest left wing groups that I {A known leading SWP member} should convene that meeting. Why would they do it if they thought such of us? This is relected in other campaigns and the friendly and fraternal attitude towards our members.

When comrades were going to Geneva in one locally rooted branch donations were given by no less than twenty three locally based, trade unions, trade union branches, womens, ethnic minority, solidarity, youth and campaign groups. By leading figures in other left wing parties, and by a host of other well known community activists who knew that the money was to send swp activists to a demostration. Is this the behaviour of those that strongly dislike us?

This is just three of the very recent examples that does not stand up to those critisism. I could list many more but have not got time. Signing out till later

by Joe Thu Aug 28, 2003 13:14

I think most of the posts here refer to people's experience of the SWP in Dublin. It's possible things are a little different in Belfast, certainly the Belfast SWP (in the form of Davy) have a much more open approach to discussing these sort of issues then the Dublin crowd do.

However Davy I'm not sure of your example, the fact that 20 odd people donated money to enable 'known SWP members' to go to Geneva.

Was this money asked for in the name of the SWP or of GR, if as I suspect GR the way that you confuse the two is revealing in itself.

Secondly people and organisations donate money for a range of reasons, not all of which are because you like the people asking you for the money. It can be a 'you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours', it can be 'here's some cash now leave me alone' or in the case of organisations it can be 'it's easier to give them the money then waste a lot of time arguing with them'. In the organisation case were the donations initiated by an SWP member of that union branch/community group?

I had a friend who used to be in the (British) Revolutionary Communist Party. They had incredible fundraising abilities, a branch of 7 people would be told they had one month to raise 10 grand, and they'd do it, often by collecting in the name of their front organisations. They'd get donations from union branches and community groups as part of this. But they were pretty much universally hated and truly deserved the cult label.

by Davy Carlin - W/Belfast SWP Thu Aug 28, 2003 14:00 carlindavid at hotmail dot com

In the local branch that I refer to, we had above the donation sheet {like genoa} a picture box of the person going and why they where going. All the persons and organisation were also met face to face many times formally and told as to why the donations were required and who it would be sending. There were though three idividuals who were approached on the spare of moment. All those approached though knew that they were being approached by SWP members. The 'here is some cash leave me alone' or 'I scratch your back you scratch mine' is and was not the case as most if not all of those persons or groups are actively involved and working with us in various campaigns or helping to establish new unity, whom we get 'continual' support fromc.

Is it so strange Joe that people actually gave money because they supported what we were doing?

For me I tend to believe that leading figures in other various left wing organisations, leading and well known non SWP Trade Union figures, Independent womens, community and ethnic minority groups and various other non SWP leading and well known local activists would think twice before putting their names to, let alone taking it to commities etc to gain support for donations.

Sometimes however hard it may be for some and seemingly many on this site many people and groups can and do actually and actively support some of our initiatives. I need not go into the campaigns, feeder marches, etc from local communities where people knew the SWP were at the fore front of them and actively and financially supported such when approached by the SWP. Although many possible reasons can be thought up or wished for, the reality was that many of those groups supported us because they stated it was a good thing to do and the reality is now that those same groups and organisations work with us in many campaigns where we work in a fraternal way building unity and support in various ways.

That is the reality, whether you like it or not is another thing. I would think such support amongst persons and organisations would be a good thing but maybe there are those {apart from the one individual I have come across} who wish it wasn't so. Signing out

by Anonymous Thu Aug 28, 2003 15:24

Many thanks Davy for your open explanation of how things are working for the Swp in Belfast.

But to pick up on what Joe was saying. I think he is right in thinking that most of the posts here refer to people's experience of the Swp in Dublin.

Mabye things are indeed much better in Belfast.

Do you or your party in Belfast have much dealings with the Swp in Dublin? Do you have any idea what things are like in Dublin?

It is great that someone like yourself openly comes on Indymedia to answer accusations. The Swp in Dublin should have nothing to hide whatsoever - in fact they should be proud of their record and their organization if they have nothing to hide.

It is a pity no one from the Swp in Dublin comes on to answer the accusations levied on them - not only on this debate here, but I have hardly ever heard them defend themselves on Indymedia.

I am and remain a supporter of the Swp. I think they do a huge amount of work and have done an awful lot to advance the left movement in Ireland.

However, I want to see these serious accusations answered, openly and honestly.

Best regards.

by Ray Thu Aug 28, 2003 17:52

Given the controversy that started all of this - an SWP member being billed as everything but an SWP member - its worth asking: When you solicited donations to send people abroad, and included a picture box and history of the people being sent, did this history mention the fact that they were in the SWP, or was that piece of history judged as unimportant as Jonathan Neale's membership?

Given that you look for support and money from so many people for your initiatives, do you not see how people might get annoyed when they discover that an independent-sounding group like the ANL is actually a wholly-owned subsidiary of the SWP?

by Davy Carlin - W/Belfast SWP Thu Aug 28, 2003 18:33 CARLINDAVID at HOTMAIL dot COM

Ray Although I have already answered most points you have raised above I will detail it more. The persons and organisations whom we approached were and are the same organisations we work with today. They know we are members of the SWP as you would know leading activists in the SWP in Dublin I presume, as up here we have and work with them day and daily. It was leading and well known activists whom appproached those leading groups and organisations as well known SWP members in their locality. Apart from them knowing it was to send SWP activists {and incidently there was also non SWP activists who went}, they gladly donated after we met and went through what it was all about and most of them even took a copy of that 'Socialist Worker' paper some dislike on this site, while others took it to their committees and sought and then got that agreement for solidarity. Other monies were raised by individuals political contacts, friends, family etc whom again know it was to send them across as SWP members. In conclusion no one was approached as I stated above whom did not know we were not from the SWP and it was to send activists across. Why does it seem so strange to you's down there that people and organisations would want to give financial solidarity to Belfast SWP activists going to an international meeting as they do to the IPSC, Columbian Solidarity activists etc etc who may go to the same meetings and seek financial solidarity?


One point however we did not as you put it ' solicited' donations, we asked for finanicial solidarity and it was forthcoming to yes, openly SWP members. Is that so strange given the fact we work with all those people and groups in various campaigns. As for campaigns in Belfast being a wholly subsidiary of SWP, with SWP speaking, taking up most of committee etc etc I have already dealt with that above in previous article. Anyway away to an IPSC get together after tonights Marxist Forum.

Incidently I did not convene the meeting and indeed will not chair it and in fact may not even speak at it. But I will go along to see as always what active and indeed finiancial solidarity may need to be raised and what part I can play in taking time in helping out.

by Yossarian Thu Aug 28, 2003 18:55

You have written at length without addressing the core points that I made which were quite simple.

1. Lack of democracy inside the party and in its dealings with others. You did not mention this in your reply.

2. Setting up front groups. The thrust of your post in relation to this is that it is natural for SWP members in mixed group campaigns to put forward an SWP agenda. Agreed to an extent but you don't address the issue of front groups. Don't pretend you don't know what I am talking about. IAWM, GR, ANL. These are front groups (the IAWM marginally less so than the others). They pretend to be intependent but they are not, they are controlled by the SWP. SWP members most often than not convene the meetings, chair the meetings and speak at the meetings. Why hide it?

3. You never address the issues. See above!

Do not confuse participation in a front group initiated event for support. 100,000 people came out on the streets of Dublin on Feb 15, myself included. I do not support the IAWM. 3000 people came out and protested against police brutality when 'called' by GR. Sometimes peoples support of an issue overrides their distrust of the organisation that has seized the opportunity.

The SWP are much more reluctant to participate meaningfully in groups they do not control.

I also do not think that SWP Belfast are much better than SWP anywhere else. Your conduct during the anti-war demos was as despicable as your southern brethren (check out indymedia reports around Day X [24ish March] and the Hillsborough and Belfast protests during Bush's visit to Belfast [7/8 April?]).

Anonymous, you betray your level of participation in political activism. You obviously have little contact with either SWP or other activists. If you did, you would know that most non-SWP people dislike them and you would know more about their methods. When I started getting active I couldn't figure out why everyone was saying 'fuck the SWP' or words to that effect. Surely, I thought, we are all on the same side, our differences are minute relative to the great injustice. I have still much to learn but something I have learnt is to be doggy wide when dealing with the SWP. That's my experience.

by Anonymous Thu Aug 28, 2003 19:25

Yossarian,

I do actually know several Swp members and they are as sound as people as I have ever met. Your criticisms, which I assume are aimed primarily at central leadership - which although I do not necessarily agree with (I don't know) - I respect.

My primary aim is to see the overthrow of capitalism/neo-liberalism both in Ireland & in the world.

To achieve this I think the left & humanitarian movements (both in Ireland & in the world) need to try and work as close & harmoniously together as possible.

I think this is imperative if my aim, and the aim of most other left wing people is to be achieved.

To this end it gives me great satisfaction and hope to see the rise of the social forums both nationally and internationally.

It does not give me great satisfaction to see the bitterness and apparent hatred between different fractions of the left.

Yes, the criticisms of the Swp must be addressed -but while addressing, tacking & exposing these criticisms, I think the Swp must remain part of a united left front in order to see the overthrow of right-wing ideology in Ireland - and the world.

Regards.

by Davy Carlin - W/Belfast swp Thu Aug 28, 2003 20:13 carlindavid at hotmail dot com

I speak on my own experiences in relation to united fronts and working within campaigns and groups not initiated and initiated by SWP in Belfast. So on those points.

'The swp are much more reluctant to participate meaningfully in groups they do not 'control'. Two points, firstly in my experience I disagree, secondly what groups in Belfast are you actually talking about {i am dealing with our experiences here} and if people in such groups here state such could you point out and provide evidence as to who they are as I am only more than willing to speak and engage with them. As I have already stated that within such groups I have genuinely not come across such comments as are raised here apart from one individual, this in relation to Belfast

You talk about our conduct in relation to day X in Belfast etc elaborate as I really don't know what you are talking about {although I have heard of incorrect versions given to various groups memberships by their 'leaders'} and I will only be to happen to put my view.

I also hear constantly of the SWP not responding to critism etc. I am only to welcome to answer or address any matters you rise as I believe a lot can be gained from engagement and secondly we can always find if we try hard enough commom ground. I ask only that you conduct this in a manner in which you may have your own personal heart felt experiences and views, but lets engage in a manner which respects each to hold their own opinion while addressing important issues. We can not effect change and hope to work possibly on issues of commanilty amongst the left if we cannot at less engage in a open and respectful way.

Yossarian I have no problem in engaging with you or indeed addressing your concerns or points but lets keep it calm and work through those points, Davy Carlin

by Joe Fri Aug 29, 2003 11:58

Davy both myself and Ray asked you directly if the money you were talking about was being collected in the name of the SWP or of your front GR. You have now twice carefully avoided this question by saying the money was collected by 'known members of the SWP'.

What is interesting in this is not whether you were collecting money in the name of your front rather then the SWP. This has some relevance only in that you are trying to prove that the SWP is popular because people/orgs can be convinced to donate money to its front. Rather it is that in your own mind one is the other. People, in other words, giving money to GR are giving money to the SWP. I can see no other reason for you to twice judge that a direct question which would distinguish one from the other has no relevance.

by Davy Carlin - W/Belfast SWP Fri Aug 29, 2003 12:56 carlindavid at hotmail dot com

How blunt do you want me to be, 'I' approached persons then asked persons that 'I' Davy Carlin from the SWP was looking sponsorship to send me Davy Carlin an SWP member and activist to the meeting. I then {me} SWP member Davy Carlin asked if the wanted a copy of 'Socialist Worker' {paper of Socialist Worker party}. I am sorry that I have to disappoint you and not give the answer you would like to hear but unfortunately I cannot change facts.

To make it really really really clear once again just for you, those whom I approached knew they were giving money to send an 'SWP MEMBER ACROSS' even though as I stated non swp members also went.

I cannot make it any clearer and to any objective reader they will most likely think that your hatred of 'fronts' as you put it is blinding you from seeing the clear answer I have given.I have even put it in capital letters so you do not miss it.

If you still cannot understand my answer then there is nothing I can do. I am not going to spend my time going round in circles with you trying to get an answer that suits you while I give clear facts that don't suit you. To the objective reader my point would be clear and thats good enough for me so Signing of on this as it seems any reply is not good enough unless it is to the liking to your mindset. Once again sorry to dispoint you but can't change the facts of how I raised monies.

Finally I have help raise money for the Blanket that was closed down by the state, I have help raise money for the IPSC to bring speakers across to Ireland, I have help raise money for striking workers, as I have helped raise money for the SWP. In fact I have helped raise money for many concerns and I do it openly as an SWP activist within those campaigns, whatever campaign it may be. To me and to many reading this It could seem that your problem like others on this site lays not in the fact that I, as an SWP activist, can find many that are prepared to give me and others support from many avenues but that your mindset about 'fronts' and the SWP will not allow you to believe such support could and is forthcoming. Again there is little I can Do about that. Enjoyed discussion though signing of this thread much to do within many campaigns.

by Davy Carlin - W/Belfast SWP Fri Aug 29, 2003 14:20 carlindavid at hotmail dot com

Briefly someone raised about the Anti war stuff in Belfast, I am unsure of what you meant but I have a very detailed account on the Blanket, if your interested on my understanding of events then {above link} in two parts, Part 1 'Building a Mass Anti war Movement, tens of thousands march in Belfast' and Part Two, 'Moving to action'. This can be found in current articles if you trawl down a bit.

Secondly as one who hates revisionism such as hearing that members of various groups being told that there was no Schools against War {SAW} feeder marches on Day X etc. One now can log into the N.Ireland SWP website and see the SAW feeder marches and civil disobedience on Day X before they marched to the US consul to vent their anger at www.niswp.tk The same revisionism has been attempted elsewhere, for example the media termed 'historic' Falls and Shankill march in which the SWP played a leading role, in which recently i seen a picture of the march in a socialist paper, as one who was holding the lead banner {having been made by SWP activists} I was airbrushed out of the picture in this said paper. And funily enough one of their leading figures whom by pure chance got to hold the lead banner towards the end of the march because one of the activists who was holding it initially had to dash of and collect his kids.

So this socialist 'leader' dashed and almost fell over himself to hold the banner, then gave his organiser a camera to take pictures of him holding the edge of it, with a big smile the last few yards to the fire station. I have and had no problem with anyone holding a banner but to airbrush one of the leading organisers out of it {as I and a protestant trade unionist, the leading organiser from the Shankill Road went round W/belfast doing media interviews and meeting people etc to build support for it} all I can say is, what can I say, that it shows and showed you what such deep and rooted political sectarianism can push one to do.

So many photos of activities we have initiated shall be put up on this site and reports given there and elsewhere. Am closing the door have to go. Good discussion. Davy Carlin

by Joe Fri Aug 29, 2003 14:47

Davy that makes it three times you have answered a question other then the one being asked. You'll make a proper politican some day.

Let me rephrase it. In you post boasting of the SWP's fund raising abilities you wrote "In the local branch that I refer to, we had above the donation sheet {like genoa} a picture box of the person going and why they where going"

Above you are talking of a very specific form. Now I suspect what you are talking of is in fact the GR sponsorship form mentioned in the GR newsletter of 24 April. These are also referred to in Socialist Voice May 2003. So am I right in presuming it was a GR form you were using and that therefore even if people know you as an SWP member their contributions were technically going to GR?

by SP member Fri Aug 29, 2003 23:50

As a member of the SP I have many deeply held political differences with the SWP but i do feel the general direction of this discussion is unfair and is based on Davy having to defend himself against people who a guessing about the facts.
I was one of those who donated to the appeal for funds, i was approached by Davy and made a donation, i like most others on the left in Belfast am well aware that Davy is a leading member of the SWP and frankly on this issue had no problem at all making a donation.