REVOLUTION AND COUNTER REVOLUTION

by >>>>>Seáinín Thu Sep 04, 2003 22:17

Are there STILL some numties out there who believe in Marxism? LMAO!
You might as well join the Flat Earth Society for all the support you'll get. Marxism was more evil than Nazism, why can't some fools get it into their thick heads that people don't like being told what to do. Live free or die.

by counter troll service (free) Thu Sep 04, 2003 23:50

that even Marx sought to distance himself from marxism in his later years declaring "I am afraid I am not a marxist".
Marxist thought, is no more than a material dialectic humanist philosophy. In it's pure form it is harmless. Nazism was not. We may know that more people were enslaved, murdered, exploited and made generally miserable under regimes that claimed to be "Marxist", but that also was true of regimes that described themselves as "democratic","christian","islamic".
The problem with Marxism in it's form "marxist-leninism" was the illusion that a political and economic theory could explain all phenomona of human existance, and this delusion offered as much "opiate" to the masses as religion had previously.
We may in these days, as post-behaviouralists in the main, leave the worst excesses of Marxist-Leninist belief in the detritus of history amongst the graves where it belongs. I would rather a world that valued the liberty of the individual and the well being of the planet, something no Marxist has yet satisfactorily postulated as being possible in a "marxist-leninist" or "mao-ist" system.
That's why I'm an anarchist. And an egotist.
But those of the SWM are nonetheless in some way my fraternal brethren, and so I'll jump to defend them occasionally from Seanín, who has hated the swimmies since he failed to de-programe one years ago.
¿am i right or am i wrong?

here endeth the lesson.

by hj - Sectarian Anarchist Sect Fri Sep 05, 2003 00:49

You lot will be looking over yer shoulder when the shit goes down.

Good to see the Swm'ers are still working hard.

They even sound angry on the internet what with the CAPS LOCK loudness and all

by Badman - Non-sectarian anarchist Fri Sep 05, 2003 02:42

AND WHY DOES EVERYBODY BLAME ANARCHISTS WHEN SOMEBODY HAS A GO AT THE TROTS. THE TROLLING ABOVE WAS FROM RIGHT WING AMERICANS, THE ANARCHIST POSTING WAS A COUNTER-TROLL AND WAS QUITE INTERESTING.

THE VAST MAJORITY OF INTER-IDEOLOGY SQUABBLING ON THE SITE GOES ON BETWEEN THE SP AND EVERYBODY ELSE (PRINCIPALLY LABOUR PARTY, BUT ALSO ANARCHISTS/WSM, SHINNERS, SWP, GREENS...) BUT TO THE TROTS INDYMEDIA WILL ALWAYS BE AN 'ANARCHIST FRONT' - THEY JUST HAVEN'T FOUND THE PROOF YET, DESPITE BEING ON THE EDITORIAL COLLECTIVES (LIKE DUBYA WITH WMD IN IRAQ).

by >>>>>Seáinín Fri Sep 05, 2003 03:06

The counter troll service was very good until it mentioned that it was an Anarchist and blew it's credibility out of the window.

At least marxist-leninist dictatorships were realisitic enough about human nature to stamp out the individualistic streak in the population.

Anarchy will not and could not ever work because it assumes all human beings are like the proponents of Anarchism - that they want very little out of life except to subsist in a dull ambitionless torpor until death releases them from the tedium.

Modern capitalism, with it's unprecendented levels of personal freedom, individuual wealth and opportunuty for self-actualisation is the only political philosophy worth pursuing. It has proven it's superiority above all other "systems" because it is not a system at all but the truest expression of the human spirit.

by ??? Fri Sep 05, 2003 03:33

Good old capitalism!
This is the sort of social policy that seainin supports:
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=68&ncid=68&e=2&u=/nyt/20030903/ts_nyt/emergencyroomsgeteasedrulesonpatientcare

by counter Sept 11 trolling (free) Fri Sep 05, 2003 11:38

you can now choose which September 11 you prefer to remember:
You may like to remember THE TERRORIST EVENT!
that happened in NYC in 2001.
You may like to remember THE TERRORIST EVENT!
that happened in Chile in 1973.
You may like to remember THE TERRORIST EVENT!
that happened in Catalonia 1714.
You may like to remember THE TERRORIST EVENT!
that happened in England in 1664.

or alternatively you may find another TERRORIST EVENT! that no-one yet has thought to remember and applying the warped values and logic of prejudice blame THE YANKS/ THE COMMIES / THE LIBERALS / THE SPANISH / THE BRITS / THE ANARCHISTS especially when they stick to ¿anonyminity?

Q. (for your permenant record) Which September 11 TERRRORIST EVENT! is a national holiday?

by >>>>>Seáinín Fri Sep 05, 2003 12:47

Well, capitalism has provided far better social condtions, ESPECIALLY in healthcare than any other system yet devised.

Certainly better than anything that anarchism could provide. Why? Because anarchism swiftly degenrates into despotism, people are like that.

by Pablo Montana - Indie Socialist Fri Sep 05, 2003 14:00

"I am afraid I am not a marxist". Was against the German Social Democrats who were laying the basis for Bernstein's revisionism which was opposed by the Bolsheviks, Sparticists and other genuine Marxists. In academic terms the 'Marxism' Marx was rallying against was 'Orthodox Marxism' which was later challenged by Engels, Lenin, Liebknicht, Luxemburg, Trotsky and Connolly to name but a few. The type of Marxism that opposed this sterile 'Orthodoxy' which turned all questions into ones of bland economic determinism would be termed 'classical' Marxism. It was a turn away from crude Deterministic Materialism and a return to Marx's Dialectical Material. Marx's quote, here taken completely out of context was a little personal rebuke to some of these determinists of the German SDP and nothing else. If you re-attach the beginning of the sentence you will find it reads "If these people are Marxists then I am afraid I am not a Marxist." The 'Orthodox' school of Marxism's evolution lead to the reformist 'labour' and 'social democratic' parties that have in the last 15 years drifted irreconcilably to the right and are now nothing more than social conservatives and the type of parties that the person who used the quote would probably be proud to call themselves a member of.

Seanín calling Marxists flat-earthers is simply funny. Galileo and co. were regarded as wacko's and threats to society by the establishment in their day, it is precisely Seanín and his friends Tony, George and Bertie who are analogous with flat earthers today.

by Ivan Caramba - IBC Fri Sep 05, 2003 14:03

Since the reintroduction of capitalism to the old USSR, life expectancy has fallen from 76 to 54 years. Thats great healthcare sean.

by Anonymous Fri Sep 05, 2003 14:30

Seanin,

Your actually putting together a few coherent, mature, non-abusive thoughts. Bravo! Please continue and stop acting the child.

I totally welcome your critical comments so long as they are sincere and not just abusive. I would love if more right wingers put forward their arguments on this website.

You say capitalism is "the truest expression of the human spirit."

I agree and disagree.

I think it is indeed the truest expression of our "animalistic" spirit where by the "fittest survive" as determined by the free for all, jungle of the market. The weak however are fucked. If you are born on the wrong side of the planet, or the road god help ya. If your good at kicking a football or can sing, your in luck.

But if you are weak in any way, be it, health (physical & mental), economic (from a poor background), uneducated, or born in the poorest 70% of the planet - through the capitalist system, where only the fittest survive - your fucked.

Most of us would like to think we have evolved beyond simplistic animals. Where we have developed a conscience, where we can choose between good and evil, where we can look out for and love one another which is a universal declaration accpted by most human beings.

Wouldn't you?

Or do you think we should still remain brutish animals, still living in the jungle/market?

Respect.

by Righteous Pragmatist Fri Sep 05, 2003 18:45

If communism was soooo good why did the following happen?
- The shooting of thousands of Polish officers when they made an alliance with Hitler to invade Poland?
- The invasion of Afghnaistan in 1979.
- The occupation of South Vietnam and the rise of Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge in 1975.
- The enormous expansion of the GULAG system during the Stalin period and their continuous operation up to 1991 killing millions in concentration camps.
- The enormous stockpiling of nuclear armaments and the selling of conventional weapons to Third world dictators like Idi Amin and Colonel Guddafi.
- The shooting of Pope John Paul II by Ali Agca with the sponsorship of Bulgarian KGB.
- The one party state and brutal oppression of the Russian people.
- the one party state in China and the opression of the Chinese people to this day.
- the Berlin wall and the shooting of East Germans fleeing this "worker's paradise".
- the Purges of the 1930's.
- the use of poison gas in Russian slave camps under the rule of Lenin
- the assassination of President John F. Kennedy a man who strived for peace by Lee Harvey Oswald a committed Communist.
- the monstrous Romanian orphanages.
- the Chernobyl disaster.

Since 1991 the old Communists have air brushed these evils from the long evil History this political religion. A new generation of young people must be taught the illusion of Scientific Communism leads to totalitarianism and despotism.
Live Free or Die!

by tom da com Fri Sep 05, 2003 22:27

i've never heard of "poison gas in slave camps under lenin", so can't comment...

but none of those other things were carried out by communists.
people should take some time out to read the communist manifesto: it's very short, so it won't take up too much of your precious time!

----
"...a very brief conversation with an average
anti-socialist is sufficient to show that he does not know what Socialism means. The same is true of all the anti-socialist writers and the 'great statesmen' who make anti-socialist speeches: unless we believe that they are deliberate liars and imposters, who to serve their own interests labour to mislead other people, we must conclude that they do not understand Socialism. There is no other possible explanation of the extraordinary things they write and say. The thing they cry out against is not Socialism but a phantom of their own imagining."
(Robert Tressell, from the preface to 'The Ragged Trousered Philanthropists')

by Seáinín Sat Sep 06, 2003 01:22

well if you want to know what real communism is ask shane kenna he seems to know all about stalin and his ideas

by >>>>>Seáinín Sat Sep 06, 2003 01:53

Some little gobshite is using my tag again. THAT is the kind of behaviour which will destroy the site.

by >>>>>Seainín Sat Sep 06, 2003 02:03

I was not comparing Maexists to the original proponents of the idea that the earth was round.

I was referring to the Flat earth society which exists today and which contains members who I imagine to have the same mindset as anyone who thinks that marism was ever a good idea. It was a disaster, all artifical systems imposed on a society are doomed to failure. The only possible society is one in which man can realise his true nature which is what a free democratic capitalist society provides. In addition, these societies generate so much wealth that they can provide a dignified existence for those who, through illness or misfortunate, cannot provide for themselves.

by sp member (personal capacity) Sat Sep 06, 2003 09:26

Seainin makes heavy demands on poor old capitalism.

Not only does he fetter it by demanding that it
"provide a dignified existence for those who, through illness or misfortunate, cannot provide for themselves" a statement that would send a shudder through any self respecting free market supporter he then goes on to demand a "a free democratic capitalist society".

Now no one could question that to a minority of people in western europe and the US the world looks that way but it is unlikly that the majority would quite agree.
In the rest of the world the issue would not even be open for discussion.

If an argument is to be made for capitalism it should at least begin with what it really is.

by David Sat Sep 06, 2003 15:33

It is imposed through the use of force and intimidation. it is the reason why the most capitalist society in the world (america) needs the biggest army in the world to defend it's interests. It'sa the reason why there need to be so many regulations, laws rules, committees, organisations in order to change the rules in favour of those in power and keep an illusion of transparancy..

by >>>>>Seainín Sat Sep 06, 2003 18:00

Surely it is neccessary to defend capitalism from people interested in setting up a dictatorship of the proletariat, we must defend ourselves against your 'ideas' cultish as they are.

by >>>>>Seainin Sat Sep 06, 2003 18:20

Just like Hitler Did

by >>>>>Seainín Sat Sep 06, 2003 18:41

The above user is not me, somebody is impersonating me.

by Seáinín Sun Sep 07, 2003 03:02

Stop using my tag please. It so belittles you.

by sp member (personal capacity) Sun Sep 07, 2003 11:32

I very much doubt that it is socialist party members who are impersonating you seainin.

It would help if you made clear which posts are impersonating you.

This method should be opposed by all indy media users.

No more lies No more spin

by Seáinín Sun Sep 07, 2003 14:36

These are the kind of people ruining indymedia.

by ??? Sun Sep 07, 2003 15:35

I thought Seainin said he was giving up posting here? Which is the real Seainin? Or is he suffering from multiple personality disorder?

by Seáinín Sun Sep 07, 2003 16:47

The post above is the real me, somebody keeps saying I am impersonating me, very confusing.

I am not leaving anymore, I have a few things to finish first.

by Earth Citizen Sun Sep 07, 2003 17:03

Are you:
A. >>>>>Seainin
B. >>>>>Seáinin
C. Seainin
or
D. Seáinin
?
Are you the one who apoligised for abusing Michael Moore?
Are you the one who supports the nazi fly-posters?
Do you know WHO you are?

by the grand inquisitor Mon Sep 08, 2003 01:32

Yes Seáinín, WHO ARE YOU ?

by >>>>>Seainín Mon Sep 08, 2003 01:46

there's a revolution just around the corner (any day now) ohh yes, any day now.