Peter Cassells Labour candidate for Euro election

by Jim O'Riordan - trade unionist Fri Jan 30, 2004 15:21

Peter played a huge role in pushing through the so-called partnership deals with their no-strike clauses, minimal increases, undelivered social improvements and anti-workers legislation.

He won't be getting my vote.

by pat c Fri Jan 30, 2004 15:34

remember there was an ictu executive council deciding on all of those policies. this ec was made up of the "leaders" of trade unions. its too easy to demonise one person. peter cassells was the figurehead of a current of the union burocracy.

24 people sitting around a table made those decisions, they in turn were answerable to the unions. there are many hundreds (if not thousands) of people who make up the power structure that is the irish union burocracy.

by as4 Fri Jan 30, 2004 15:39

Cassells could hardly be described as not part of the TU bureacracy. Labour are the party of the trade union burecrats and middle class liberals. Why not accept it and not not vote for them instead of going around pretending they represent workers

by pat c Fri Jan 30, 2004 17:18

i am merely pointing out that he was the figurehead of a caste of beaurocrats. demonising a few lets hundreds of beaurocrats off the hook. i will take a guess that as4 is in the sp, same style. there was a time when militant was out canvassing for beaurocrats. even when labour was in government, 3 times from 73 -87. during those days, militant preached that there was no salvation outside of labour. that of course changed when their leaders were expelled.

by voter Fri Jan 30, 2004 18:35

Pat if you lived in Bray or Clonee or Drogheda would you give him a vote or a transfer of any description?

by as4 Fri Jan 30, 2004 18:56

Pat do you not accept that the Labour Party has changed dramaticaly in the past 15 years? Do you not accept that they have moved to the right?

by what Fri Jan 30, 2004 19:18

You made a comment that seemed to hint that Cassells didn't bear all the responsibility for his position on partnership, then as4 said

"Cassells could hardly be described as not part of the TU bureacracy. Labour are the party of the trade union burecrats and middle class liberals. Why not accept it and not not vote for them instead of going around pretending they represent workers"

I don't see this as trolling at all. It is not a personal attack on anyone, it is not repeating something from another thread, it quite clearly commenting on the record of Cassells and the nature of the LP. Considering the original post is about Cassells standing as a LP candidate I see no problem with "as4"'s initial comment.

by pat c Fri Jan 30, 2004 19:19

took place at:
http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=63017

there is no point in repeating it.

by hs - sp Sat Jan 31, 2004 18:14

i've seen as4 on a few threads, he or she is a caricuture of an sp member.
As for militant I don't think the majority of people who joined the sp in the last few years would have joined militant (especially people in socialist youth).

by pat c Sat Jan 31, 2004 18:30

yeah u could be right about as4 being a caricature.but its not just him. i also accept that some syers in particular might lever have joined the lp.i dont like having words put in my mouth.

by pat c Sat Jan 31, 2004 18:40

i also followed your advice and contacted the sp offline about joan collins. i couldnt get a straight answer. i got no reply to an email i sent to stephen boyd.

when i get a straight answer fromthe sp on joan collins,i willgive a hypothetical answer to a hypothetical question on how i would vote if i lived in the east euro constituency.

by hs - sp Sat Jan 31, 2004 19:01

Don't really mind about that question. As far as voting I would (obviously) say vote for us rather than labour. But that's normal enough if you're in a party. On the other hand I don't think someone who votes for labour is a "class tratior" or anything ridiculas like that. I voted for them in 1992 for my sins. The likes of our friend the caricature do the sp more harm than anyone else, but thats not to say it mightn't be a real member.

For Joan I honestly don't know, but like I said a few times before if she doesn't want to run I for one won't critisise her for it. Its alot to ask from someone and if I won't do it myself I'm not going browbeat anyone else. Whether that be for personal or political reasons. Probably people are trying to convince her to run now. But again that's pure speculation. Anyway I'd never run for office (i'm not cut out for it) so I'm not going to lecture someone else for it.

Still at least you asked rather than some of our other friends, not a straight answer I take to mean not a straight yes or no. Which probably means she hasn't decided yet.
Personally I think she'd make a great candidate.

by SP Member Sun Feb 01, 2004 13:45

Firstly this thread is about the selection of Peter Cassells as Labour candidate in the Euros. Cassells is a former Trade Union bureaucrat that played a key role in ensuring the continuation of the so-called "partnership process" in this country for 15 years. These are the facts.

Once again Pat C, not for the first time, uses an unrelated thread to attempt to throw dirt at the SP. The situation relating to the selection of SP candidates has already been explained on indymedia, someting that I believe you are well aware of. If I was working in the SP head office and I received an email from you I wouldn't bother replying to it. It would be a waste of time. Your motives on this issue are not genuine, you are solely intent on throwing dirt and no matter what the reply was, that is what you would do. For your benefit I will once again explain the situation to you. No doubt you will find the explanation inadequate, but tough, we are not here you be at your beck and call to answer every trivial question you have.

In a previous list of possible candidates published in the "Socialist Voice" Joan Collins's name, along with a number of other possible candidates, was included. By law the SP (as a registered political party) is obliged to hold selection conventions to select candidates. The latest issue of the "Voice" included a list of candidates that had been selected and indicated that other candidates might run in a number of other area, including Dublin City Council.

The SP has yet to decide all the areas in which we will run. Joan Collins' area is just one of these. If the SP runs a candidate in this area then I have no doubt that Joan Collins will be the candidate. Personally I hope we do, but that decision is not up to me, it is up to Joan Collins, the SP members in the area and the National Committee. Joan Collins will only be the SP candidate if 1) She want to be the candidate, 2) the SP members in the area want her to be the candidate and 3) the NC ratify the canditure. This is the proceedure for all candidates of all registered political parties and a proceedure that we are obliged to abide by. Stop trying to stir the sh*t Pat.

by pat c Mon Feb 02, 2004 11:24

"Once again Pat C, not for the first time, uses an unrelated thread to attempt to throw dirt at the SP."

I was misrepresented by someone who was obviously from the SP , nowhere did I say that Cassells wasnt a burocrat and nowhere did I call for a vote for cassells.

"If I was working in the SP head office and I received an email from you I wouldn't bother replying to it. It would be a waste of time."

A SP member hs has suggested that anyone wanting the real story should contact the SP HQ.

" Your motives on this issue are not genuine, you are solely intent on throwing dirt and no matter what the reply was, that is what you would do. "

Not true, on previous threads I have denounced the attacks on Michael O Brien and Helen Redwood as being nonsense. At no stage did I put demands on the SP to answer questions about Joan. I only did it on this occasion because a demand was put on me to answerhow I would vote in a hypothetical situation.

Stephen Boyd has since answered my question but requested that I not post it on Indymedia, I will of course honour his request.

"Stop trying to stir the sh*t Pat."

I think you should address that to the SYers who misrepresented my position on Cassells and the ICTU burocracy. Again, look back at previous threads, you will see that I defended Redwood & M'OB and did not put demands on the SP to answer about Joan Collins.

by vb Mon Feb 02, 2004 11:38

Pat, this thread is about Cassells and the Euro elections. I don't think it is off topic to ask how you would vote in that election. It is of course your privilege not to answer (secret ballot etc). But the Joan Collins question is completely off topic. You should have just replied by saying you did not wish to answer the question or that you thought it was not a legitimate question instead of bringing up a seperate topic entirely.

Another thing, you did not say that he wasn't a bureacrat but you still leapt to his defence when people questioned his record on partnership. I think people can make their own inferences.

by William Millar Mon Feb 02, 2004 11:52

You said
"For Joan I honestly don't know, but like I said a few times before if she doesn't want to run I for one won't critisise her for it. Its alot to ask from someone and if I won't do it myself I'm not going browbeat anyone else. Whether that be for personal or political reasons. Probably people are trying to convince her to run now. But again that's pure speculation. Anyway I'd never run for office (i'm not cut out for it) so I'm not going to lecture someone else for it."

It seems to me that you are introducing the possiblity that Joan does not want to run. Is this just guessing or is this what you are being told by your comrades in Dublin? Because anybody who believes that Joan doesn't want to run is being duped. Pat, you are not a member of the SP, so why don't you tell us what Boyd (the enforcer) has to say.
Anyway its not difficult to see what is happening here. She was named as a candidate a couple of months ago, now we are seeing all kinds of bluff about selection conventions, she might not want to run etc. etc. And they have the cheek to call others Stalinists.

by pat c Mon Feb 02, 2004 12:00

"Pat, this thread is about Cassells and the Euro elections. I don't think it is off topic to ask how you would vote in that election."

Yes it is, at no stage did I call for support for Cassells. AND I dont even live in the constituency.

" But the Joan Collins question is completely off topic. "

If an SPer can demand to know how I would vote in a hypothetical situation then I believe it is fair for me to ask the SP to answer questions that they seem relucant to deal with.

"Another thing, you did not say that he wasn't a bureacrat but you still leapt to his defence when people questioned his record on partnership."

I did not leap to his defence, I pointed out that the ICTU Burocracy is not composed of a few demonic individuals, it involves hundreds if not thousands of people. Nowhere in any of my comments is there a defence of Peter Cassells, if there was you would have pointed to it. People can draw their own inferences as to why you are trying to distort my views.

by vb Mon Feb 02, 2004 12:08

The fact that you live in the constituency or not is irrelevent. You should still be able hypothetically be able to decide how you would vote in that election. It is relevent to this thread, Cassells is being announced as the LP candidate in the euro elections, it is VERY relevent to ask how someone would vote in that election.

You may not have defended Cassells, your position on him is now clearer. However it could be inferred that you were defending him by blaming others in the bureacracy.

by Jonah Mon Feb 02, 2004 12:29

I wouldn't vote for Cassells in East, but I would be curious what SP members are going to do. As far as I am aware they have never run anyone for the Euros outside of Dublin and don't seem to be planning to do so now so if there is no SP candidate, who are you going to vote for?

As it stands, I'll probably go SF, then Green and stop there, but what do SP people do when they don't have a candidate?

by pat c Mon Feb 02, 2004 12:35

You dont have to go around sniffing out witchs and the ideologically impure.

I dont live in the constituency therefore it is a hypothetical question as to whether or not I would vote for Cassels. But I am prepared to say this: if it was a choice between Joe Higgins and Peter Cassels, I would vote for Joe. A choice between Jim Barbour and Cassels, I would vote for barbour. A choice between Peter Hadden and Peter Cassells, I would vote for Cassells.

"You may not have defended Cassells, your position on him is now clearer. However it could be inferred that you were defending him by blaming others in the bureacracy."

This could only be inferred by someone with very poor reasoning skills. I was pointing out that the bureacracy is composed of a largee number of individuals. This is something that the left often forgets. Its not even enough to blame it on the 24 member ICTU EC, it involves at least 1,000 full time officials and lay activists. This actually might well be worth an article.

by William Millar Mon Feb 02, 2004 12:40

Tell us what Boyd said. Did it remind you of a Hans Christian Andersen tale or what?

by Greg Mon Feb 02, 2004 13:02

The SP's position on voting in areas in which no SP candidate is standing is clear. The SP calls for a vote for any genuine progressive candidate with a good track record of work in the workers movement and community campaigns. If there is no such candidate than the SP would advocate an active abstention.

If I lived in the East constituency I would not vote in the Euro election. I live in Dublin so will be voting for Joe Higgins, in the locals there is no decent candidate standing in my area so I will not cast my vote in that election.

by Voter Mon Feb 02, 2004 13:05

"in the locals there is no decent candidate standing in my area so I will not cast my vote in that election."

whats your area?

by greg Mon Feb 02, 2004 13:36

I'm living in the Glencullen ward in DLR, the SP, SWP or any anti bin tax candidate are standing in Glencullen and there is no good working class activist standing to my knowledge (last time Glencullen voted 54% FG!!).

by Ted Evans Mon Feb 02, 2004 14:45

It's got to be hard. He gets attacked from all angles. The SP with a fine tooth comb analyse everything he says to highlight his latest 'petit bourgeois' turn.
And then others accuse him of adhering to the rotten SP internal structure and refusing to let the rest of us know what Boyd had to say about Joan.
It can't be easy but at least he uses his real name.