Was Bolivar a democrat?

by Oisín - Sinn Féin Mon Dec 05, 2005 14:59 DCU

People have the right to choose not to vote, if you dont pay your taxes (not takin part in society and not giving back for what you've got) you go to jail, well in some countries, if you dont vote, which is also not aking part in society and to some extent not giving back, you cant call the country undemocratic. As far as I see it democracy, apart form circumstances where government are propped up by external forces, is always present, if you are in power, whether you're a dictatorship or where elected in an ultra involved electoral system, you are there because a majority wants you or doesnt want to get rid of you. Not enough want to get rid of Chavez and long may he run

by Richey Mon Dec 05, 2005 16:09

I can't be sure, but I suspect that many people in Venezuela are simply knackered with the number of elections that have been held in the last few years (at least 10, I think). The turn out for last year's recall referendum was much higher (around 70% I think).

by Barry Mon Dec 05, 2005 20:14

As was pointed out above , theres been election after election with the right trying to unseat him and the people came out in massive numbers to keep him .

This time the right withdrew fom the elections as it was so obvious theyd lose in order to portray them as farcical . With the right withdrawing people simply didnt need to go out and vote in large numbers, his party was assured of victory . Torrential tropical rains didnt help matters either . In venezuela its not just a matter of hopping on a 42a to the polling station .

by % (iosaf) Tue Dec 06, 2005 12:31

& the golden rule for commercial media is to mention the weather. If its bad weather turnout is low, because people stay at home, if its good weather turnout is low because people go to the beach instead. For the last miserable years of global democratic participative crises in which we live, and because of the effects of which, the "non-voting" movement grew, every single election or referendum from Europe to the world has been put down to the weather.

In this morning's english Guardian, the opinion writer Richard Gott goes further than the weather cliché, apparantly its "voter fatigue" now.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/venezuela/story/0,12716,1659309,00.html

Oh well, as I pointed out years ago, we don't have a venezuela indymedia so we can ask our peers over there what they think. Odd that.

But people don't change their favourite footballer so easily. Europeans agree with the leader of the Bolivarian revolution that it was a yankee plot. Of course the majority of the workers of Venezuela in whose name he brandishes the baseball bat on his weekly TV show, and for whose sake the leader tirelessly toils "don't have to vote" to legitimise him. Oh no. We only call foul when someone like Berlusconi or Blair who so obviously serve the Yankee imperial agenda don't make the democratic quorate.

What if Chavez serves the same imperial agenda?

been a long time pondering the questions Chavez raises:-
http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=22957

by Reader Tue Dec 06, 2005 12:56

“Democracy is constructed by those who participate, thus the withdrawal … of the opposition parties does not delegitimize the parliamentary elections,” said Eugenio Chicas, a magistrate of the electoral council of El Salvador.

by % iosaf Tue Dec 06, 2005 19:13

"the preparation of electronic ballots prejudiced the outcome with election officials campaiging for the MRV"...
"in many areas the exercise of franchise can not have been considered secret"...

:- joint delegation of ERC and PSC on behalf of the Parliament of Catalonia to observe the Venezuelan election 2005.

This morning's barcelona editorial said :- "Chavez is not the first popularist caudillo in south america nor will he be the last..."

It has been less than a month since I asked "Is Chavez a cuadillo?". The answer has come in. Yes- He is.

I for one prefer non-authoritarian, non-hierarchial, non-popularist and demogogic regimes of either left or right leaning. Chavez is now in the same big box as Castro. Both regimes may have many points for to their favour for the welfare and social development of thier poorest, but neither is an example of a state which may be thought acceptable in the evolution of democracy and civilised values in keeping with international law. = Not anti-Chavez yet, but now I'm not pro-Chavez. the @ summit in january 2006 will provide me & I hope my peers in the international indymedia community ample opportunity to evaluate the Venezuelan state as it is _now_ and to assess whether or not the creation of an (((i))) indymedia collective in that state is desirable.

...sure I might even go.

by eeekkkk Wed Dec 07, 2005 16:08

"The opposition then turned turtle and announced its withdrawal. It was not acting alone. In the background, at private meetings on the island of Aruba in the Dutch Antilles and in public declarations by Thomas Shannon, the US secretary of state for Latin American affairs, the opposition had been elaborating a strategy to overthrow Chávez. Its plan was to make people believe that "democracy in Venezuela is in grave peril", as Shannon put it to a Washington subcommittee two weeks ago."

Chavez cannot FORCE the opposition to run in elections.

by Richey Wed Dec 07, 2005 18:15

I'd be interested to see a full report from that Catalan delegation if you have a link to it, cos I'd assume the ERC don't have any particular beef with Chavez (could be wrong, but that's what I'd assume at the moment).

But it's still far too hasty to claim that Chavez and Castro are the same. In Cuba, there's no free press, and politicial dissidents are routinely jailed. In Venezuela, most of the press is still controlled by the opposition, and they still haven't put all the coup plotters from 2002 in jail, never mind anyone else. Just over a year ago, 70% of the population voted in the recall referendum; the result was deemed free and fair by the OAS and the Carter centre, and 60% voted in favour of Chavez.

Words like caudillo shouldn't be thrown around lightly, since they bring to mind images of Franco or Pinochet or Videla. If there were problems with the recent elections (problems that weren't deliberately created by the opposition parties), I'd be interested (and concerned) to hear about it.

But even if there were irregularities, I still think there's plenty of chances left to correct things.

Anway, the left shouldn't look at Venezuela and decide to be "pro-chavez" or "anti-chavez" and leave it at that. We should support the process that's going on there, not Chavez as an individual. He has his strengths and his weaknesses, but we should forget about the idea that one man can lead a revolution to success.

There's an independent trade union federation in Venezuela, that supports the government but often criticises particular policies of Chavez. That's the sort of thing that's needed if the revolution is to succeed, and that's what the left abroad should be giving its support to.

by iosaf Thu Dec 08, 2005 13:14

the EU observers were satisfied that the elections were held in a proper way. I'm sorry I can't link to the statements by ERC as they were reported on the radio and in newspapers and I've spent a week away from my usual computre.

Today Mercosur (the common market of south america) debates the inclusion of Venezuela, and it seems likely that the state will join with other Latin American states soon. Many bilateral agreements have already been signed.

That however is macro-politics. It doesn't take the glue off the nose of a 9 year old girl in Caracas, nor will it provide the young men of Venezuela's rural areas with job opportunities other than a military career sometime soon. One of the manifesto proposals of the opposition was to cancel the large orders made by Chavez for military hardware from Spain. Significantly that deal signed by Chavez and Zapatero earlier in 2005 also comitted Chile to large purchases.

This was all back in February around Valentines day, you can read all about it in the comments and look at photos here of the main players "down south"
http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=68553
You'll see at least one "cuadillo" important to recognise what the term means, we have caudillos (XXI century style) in Europe too, mr Berlusconi is a prime example. Its that or the old etonian / spin doctor leader. Which is Bertie?

I look forward to the summit in January
http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=72541

by latin caesar Fri Jan 06, 2006 02:11

that Argentina owes double the amount of money it just paid to the IMF to Venezuela.
Did you know?
that Argentina just made history by paying off in full its debt to the IMF which bailed it out of its monetary crash when people starved...
but double that amount is owed to Veneuela.
Did you know?
How many petrol dollars Chavez can count on to give the poor of the USA some gas cylinders, to ignore the Bolivian strikers, to support the Peruvian ultra rightists, to put Argentina's debt to World Capitalism
"in perspective".

{render unto caudillo what is caudillo's and unto God what is God's)