EU leaders agree new treaty framework

by Dub Sun Jun 24, 2007 14:58

In the Irish political context a referendum on this queston allows the left to engage with the public on this topic in a higher level then would have been the case if it was voted through the Oireachtas like most states. I would hope that this will not be a "letter to the Irish Times" style 'campaign' I've witness previously from some of the people mentioned above. If an organisation or party is serious about using this vote as a way to reach out and convince more people of left-wing political ideas they should be active. That means posters, campaign stalls, door to door work aswell as media work.

Importantly there will have to be sound politics coming from such a campaign. None of that nationalism-lite that surround the 'neutrality' and sovereignty arguments. I look forward to seeing what will be put forward as the programme/policy of this group before I get too enthused by it.

by davekey Sun Jun 24, 2007 15:22

I was looking at Bertie Ahern's press speach after the agreement and he enthused that 90% of the original constitution is still intact.

A pretty arrogant statement to make considering two countries rejected it and German polls showed 97% rejection of the constitution.

by davekey Sun Jun 24, 2007 18:56

“If an organisation or party is serious about using this vote as a way to reach out and convince more people of left-wing political ideas they should be active.”

I would suggest that this approach to the campaign is dead in the water before it even starts. Left wing politics is not going to appeal to the new wealthy middle/working classes only to a minority of the population. A look at the last election should verify this. It may change some people’s minds but isn’t going to put a dent in the treaty.

“That means posters, campaign stalls, door to door work as well as media work.”

I would suggest a comprehensive questionnaire/poll of public opinion BEFORE starting any campaign, to target specific areas of concern and highlight these. Trying to change public opinion without doing this first is too much hard work.

I’m not sniping from the sidelines here and am willing to engage in any such campaign provided it is a broad and targeted one. Not just left wing or anti-war, it has to appeal to the masses.

by Roger Cole - Peace & Neutrality Alliance Mon Jun 25, 2007 08:07 pana at eircom dot net 17 Castle Street, Dalkey. Co. Dublin

The meeting on Saturday 7th of July is a meeting of the Campaign Against the EU Constitution (see the PANA website www.pana.ie).

The Taoiseach has said that the proposed EU Treaty is 90% the same as the Treaty to establishh the EU Constitution and that there will be a referendum in Ireland in 2008.

by K Mon Jun 25, 2007 11:00

The campaign should consider how the government will run its campaign in advance of any referendum to endorse the treaty.

Given the complexity of EU treaties, and the inability of the average FF canvasser to explain these on the doorstep, the government may well craft a text which asks the people to endorse this treaty and any future revisions to EU treaties - thereby removing the need for future referenda.

Interesting to see where the Irish Greens come down on this one given their long-standing opposition to an increasingly corporate and militarised union.

by davekey Mon Jun 25, 2007 15:57

Vladimir Bukovksy, the 63-year old former Soviet dissident, fears that the European Union is on its way to becoming another Soviet Union. In a speech he delivered in Brussels last week Mr Bukovsky called the EU a “monster” that must be destroyed, the sooner the better, before it develops into a fullfledged totalitarian state.

Full interview at this link:

http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/june2007/250607Dic...p.htm

by EU? Mon Jun 25, 2007 21:29

Yes, totally agree with that man. Kenny f/g (the Right) is very fond of using the words European muilitary, w Myrtle & Greens have changed the word from Constitution to something else like Red lines.. But isstill is the EU constitution. Ireland will have to have a referen.on it and if the people want to go along with it well then they will get what they want. Choice is what we want, so hopefully well get the chance tosay no. Why are We in Ireland discrimated against, Cost of Living 100% higher that France/Spain, Heating bills 40% of our income in a lot ofcases...We were led tobelieved Ireland would be identical to other eu eries, but............The oul wage packet dosn't gofar these days, not like befoe we joined..That's my thinking on it anyway

PS. nyone read the pilot magazine, where over Gernsey two sightings of strange things in the air, 1 mile long by 2 miles wide?

by Federast - Supernationalism Tue Jun 26, 2007 01:03

'None of that nationalism-lite that surround the 'neutrality' and sovereignty arguments. I look forward to seeing what will be put forward as the programme/policy of this group before I get too enthused by it.'

Couldn't agree more. Unfortunately, every unholy alliance campaign has focus on mythical European Armies that will conscribe our sons and daughters. The focus needs to be on the text of the Reform Treaty. Though, if the left-right, little-Irelander cabal do this, they'll lose by even more. Expect fear tactics.

'I was looking at Bertie Ahern's press speech after the agreement and he enthused that 90% of the original constitution is still intact.

A pretty arrogant statement to make considering two countries rejected it and German polls showed 97% rejection of the constitution.'

An example of the above perhaps....

Where, pray tell, do you get these extraordinary figures? The German Government ratified the Constitutional treaty in 2005 prior to the Dutch and French no votes. The Government, I assume, are the elected representatives of the people. The Germans must, therefore, be happy that at least 90% was saved. It's clear that Germany are the big winners in terms of power distribution under the voting provisions of the Reform Treaty, so lets hope the German people can see more sense than your wild figures show.

'Vladimir Bukovksy, the 63-year old former Soviet dissident, fears that the European Union is on its way to becoming another Soviet Union. In a speech he delivered in Brussels last week Mr Bukovsky called the EU a “monster” that must be destroyed, the sooner the better, before it develops into a fullfledged totalitarian state.'

More total madness. Does anybody actually believe this? Could anybody believe this? To compare the Soviet Union, a monolith under central military control with a voluntary confederation of states seems at best misguided, and at worst the scare tactics we have come to expect from the sensationalist anti-EU camp in our society.

'We in Ireland discrimated against, Cost of Living 100% higher that France/Spain, Heating bills 40% of our income in a lot ofcases...We were led tobelieved Ireland would be identical to other eu eries, but............The oul wage packet dosn't gofar these days, not like befoe we joined..That's my thinking on it anyway'

The Reform Treaty does not deal with comparative prices between EU Member States, the size of this gentleman's wage packet, or what happened before we joined (on that there is little doubt in my mind that Ireland is a substantially better place now than it was before we joined). Focus on the content and make the arguments there.

by davekey Tue Jun 26, 2007 01:28

“Where, pray tell, do you get these extraordinary figures? The German Government ratified the Constitutional treaty in 2005 prior to the Dutch and French no votes”

A Bild magazine poll taken after the ratification.

“To compare the Soviet Union, a monolith under central military control with a voluntary confederation of states seems at best misguided”

What’s more misguided is your belief that the EU is some fumbling benign organization. Far from it, it’s continuously sucking power away from individual governments and totally ignores the will of the people. Why have 16 of the 18 countries who ratified the Constitution not allowed their citizens to vote on it? If this is democracy then they can keep it.

by e u cost Tue Jun 26, 2007 16:25

Fags example is €7 in Irelaf we have weather i nsummer at 14 degrees 9cold 0reland have enormous heating bills. europenn countries have free heat *sun*. or, in spain & less , and then the wage is €5.50 per hr. It's when wour pocket is hit that we know who our friends are!!!!!