Sectarianism - it's part of unionist culture - it's a tradition thing, a British thing

by Jimmy Fri Sep 14, 2007 15:42

Click to read article - fairly clear where unionist sectarianism leads.

But look also at the article to the right: a plan to build a hotel and leisure centre over Crumlin Road prison. What is the relationship, you might well ask?

Nationalist community workers want social and affordable housing in the plan. There is a chronic housing need in nationalist areas, where there is massive overcrowding.

The Panel putting the plan together is neutral to favorable with regard to this proposal.

Who is against it: unionists, for purely sectarian reasons.

DUP assembly member Nelson McCausland, formerly (maybe he still is) an Orange Order Education Officer (Catholics aren't Chrisitian because Nelson cannot find a mention of them in the Bible - not even the Pope tops that one), thinks that housing would "breach the core principle of the site being used as a shared future for both communities." Code for: if housing was built taigs would move in.

Nelson, who once opposed giving money to the Belfast Celtic Film Festival because Northern Ireland is not a "Celtic country", knows that while Protestants can and do live in nationalist areas, Catholics are not tolerated for long in unionist areas. It leads to unionist fight or flight when the taigs move in. Same as the racist 'white flight' in city areas of the US in the 1970s.

As New Lodge community worker, Liam Wiggins put it: "It would be immoral to stop houses being built on the biggest available site in north Belfast just becuase Catholics might want to live there".

Some people have a different sense of 'morality' from others.

Don't forget - click to read

Extreme unionist violence: kill a taig and and the 'traitor' prod who drinks with him [click to read]

by Tommy Filhinger Thu Aug 30, 2007 13:43

Must be a mistake. Sure its only loyalists that do this kind of thing.....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/697...1.stm
http://u.tv/newsroom/indepth.asp?id=84491&pt=n

by Pragmatist Thu Aug 16, 2007 13:55

2 sides to every story (well at least for the pragmatic, the semi-intelligent or the un-brainwashed)

http://u.tv/newsroom/indepth.asp?id=84241&pt=n

by Sceptic Wed Aug 15, 2007 23:34

Seaicilín F - well put but I still doubt you will convince many outside of your own ranks of OO perfidy by pointing to this or that loyalist atrocity or examples of bigotry while defending the IRA. By contrast if say the SDLP or Amnesty International who have roundly condemned IRA campaign made similar observations on the OO they will be listened to because it is all about the credibility of the accusers. Which is not to say that northern nationalists did not have real grievances especially in the early days of the troubles - that is not the point and is not in dispute. In any case these were local grievances that gave no mandate to wage a war on behalf of the whole Irish people, financed by armed robbery and other crime which is a further cause of the moral corrosion of republicanism. The point was the loss of moral authority to point the finger at wrongdoing elsewhere on the part of republicans while they defended and led a an ugly campaign of armed terror with numerous atrocities which went on for years and years too long. The problem is not so much with the young fellas joining the IRA but with those who led and directed the whole thing and rejected entreaties from the whole of civilized humanity from the Pope down to the majority of ordinary Irish people who did not support them. It was arrogance and bloody mindedness to have kept it up for so long. Lets assume for example some moral victory in the suffering of the ten dead hunger strikers. Fine but they could not leave it at that - the IRA had to assassinate Robert Bradford MP in South Belfast along with the caretaker of the school he was holding his advice clinic in - in order to punish the prods for their opposition to the hunger strikers! Sorry but this was an act of sectarian hatred and was about as fascist as you can get. That is a loss and forfeiting of claims to sympathy on account of they hunger strikers. Ditto those who invoke Bloody Sunday but not Bloody Friday. You won’t get far pointing to loyalist killings while defending the (more numerous) republican ones or point to specific characteristics of loyalists killers (racist, fascist etc) while defending the particular brand of killing machine which emanated from your side. The IRA may not have killed many black people (unless they were British soldiers or “accidental” victims of bombings) but they had their own particular pathologies of elitism and intolerance. Lets be thankful it over but for it to stay over people of good will must avoid fanning the flames.

Sláinte yourself !

by Seaicilín F Wed Aug 15, 2007 21:23

Sceptic,

You cannot compare the KKK with the IRA, there is no comparison. The IRA were/are fighting British imperialism and for freedom for their country, whilst the KKK are sectarian bigots and racists of the highest order and like the Orange Order they deny Catholics membership (although I’ve recently been told by an American friend they’ve changed this in some areas due to dwindling numbers, but Catholics stupid enough to join the KKK are treated like second class citizens - sound familiar!). The KKK’s primary aim is to eliminate the black race and bring about white supremacist domination the world over, so far they’ve only managed to dominate a few remote woods (some cannot see the wood at all for the trees - bit like the King Billy lover ‘Rooster’!).

The reasons given by people for joining the IRA are very different and complex to those simplistic reasons given by members of the KKK. Although, it has become apparent to me that not everybody who joined the IRA in modern times were indeed fighting for Irish freedom. Some were, of course, fighting solely to free the country from British imperialism, which of course is what it was originally set-up to do and still continues to strive to do, but in the recent past other members had other motives for joining such as: fighting for basic civil rights in the area of equality in housing and employment etc., and to put an end to the years of discrimination and poverty and sectarian abuse they suffered at the hands of the British Government and its every ready loyal servants and lovers of King William, the Orange people, so when economically things improved for them, those who joined solely to gain civil rights buried their guns, seeing no reason for them any more. Many of those who joined the IRA solely to gain civil rights would never have joined any Irish revolutionary army were it not for the atrocities perpetrated by the British Army and its agents, such as Bloody Sunday - this put an end to peaceful protest, or at least to the concept of staying alive after peacefully protesting and, subsequently, the IRA was overwhelmed with queues of young people eager to join a military organisation that they would have otherwise not have joined, they were defenceless and not permitted to peacefully protest, so they took up arms to defend themselves and their rights (go get a gun, as the placards aren’t enough to protect or help us!) - that’s what always happens when peaceful demonstration is denied to people the world over!

The fact is Sceptic that, the Orange Order and the KKK both have similarities and neither has any religion only a doctrine they have invented for themselves, which makes them a supreme race only in the eyes of themselves. The KKK has always admired the Orange Order, this is widely known. Please note the KKK hate the IRA, they have always hated them, because the IRA don’t hate black people nor do the IRA respect or support white supremacist groups or the KKK’s friends in Orange Order - it’s basically that sectarian & simple, everything is in the white supremacist world/orange world.

Sláinte!

by Sceptic Wed Aug 15, 2007 20:12

As I said at the outset I don’t think it is good to rake up old divisive stuff but it is certainly not the case that unjustified killings came only from the loyalist side. Most civilized people would not regard the moral turpitude as less grave when the act was republicans shooting protestants in the north as opposed to the KKK lynching of African-Americans. That was the point I was making in responding to the KKK analogy. I have noticed the Israeli flags on the Shankill myself but assumed that they are a reaction to perceived over-the-top republican promotion of the Palestinian cause rather than a symptom of any deep seated understanding or identification with the Israelis. I would not be surprised to see Spanish flags appearing in response to the even more pronounced Republican preoccupation with ETA.

by Patrick Henry Wed Aug 15, 2007 18:49

The 2 people with the responsibility for most of the division in the North, McGuinness and Paisley are now bosom buddies in Stormont, their futures and that of their followers are secure and everything looks rosy for the future. If they need to, and their position seems threatened then they can fall back on the old sectarian bogeyman to ensure that their tribes stay behind them.

These people need division to survive and while we the working classes bicker amongst each other they can slip through policies which keep us all struggling to keep our heads above water while they get richer.

So wise up and unite against those who divide us.

by pat c Wed Aug 15, 2007 15:31

If you are looking for KKK comparisons then look no further than the UVF & UDA. Loyalist groups have the links with fascist groups in Britain. Some loyalists even tried to set up the KKK in the 6 counties. Funny bunch though. Some loyalists also admire the Israelis so you see plenty of Israeli flags on the Shankill Road. But when a bunch of Brit fascists were coming over on a visit the flags were temporarily taken down!

More info here:
http://www.geocities.com/irishafa/

Loyalists are responsible for the vast majority of racist attacks in the 6 counties. Even the PSNI/RUC admit this.

Dont forget the loyalist siege of Holycross school. Urine, rocks and pipebombs were thrown at littlegirls. Or the siege of Salthill church. Or the siege of the Garvaghy road.

by matt Wed Aug 15, 2007 15:12

The aer lingus move to Belfast will go down in history as the first step in the next phase of the history of N.I. - The Move Towards Unity.

by Steve Wed Aug 15, 2007 14:57

The IRA did not advocate religious or racial superiority, your analogy is worthless.

Loyalism at its heart is sectarian and has similar rules of admission and similar ethnic goals as the KKK. Their comparison is wholly appropriate in this case.

by Sceptic Wed Aug 15, 2007 14:04

Seaicilín F, Actually a closer analogy to the KKK would be the provos except they wore black hoods instead of white ones and were a far more effective killing machine than the KKK. Remarkable considering how small the area and population of N.I is compared to the US south.

by verucca Wed Aug 15, 2007 13:58

It seems tha the real dfference between Orange bigotry and Republican bigotry is that the former is bad and the latter isn't bigotry at all.

Simple really.

Thankfully we now have the luxury of ignoring this rubbish while we get on with our lives.

Obviously there is a small minority on both sides in the North who enjoy this sort of thing so mch that (when they can find some time away from druggery and thuggery) they need to wallow in it ad-infinitum.

Let em, I say. It's their problem it that's how they get (some of) their kicks

by Sarsfield Wed Aug 15, 2007 13:51

All that is happening Rooster is that the population in the "Six" are going to be maintained from Dublin rather than from London. Obviously you haven't stopped signing the sash long enough to see the moves. Don't worry though, there is little if any sectarianism in the Dublin. All will be treated fairly and there will be no gerrymandering. Welcome aboard or are you considering taking oneof those Aer Lingus flights to London.

by rooster Wed Aug 15, 2007 13:08

To quote that eminent theologian Father Ted: "That would be an ecumenical matter."

It seems that the good bishops of the west of Ireland - both of the Roman and Anglican variety - are shaking their crooks with fury at the prospect of Aer Lingus transferring their 'regional hub' from Shannon to Aldergrove.

The switch would involve the prestige Heathrow route transferring to Belfast International.

So outraged are the western holymen, they ordered that a joint statement be distributed at all religious services in the mid-West of Ireland.

They say that they feel it is their duty to point out that government and private companies must have regard to their moral obligations and not just short-term commercial ones.

Moral obligations? My, that is a big stick.

Between their graces (or is it eminences?) sermonising and log-rolling TDs bleating about just how disgraceful the proposed move is, one suspects that many in the south aren't as 'all-Ireland' in thought as they like to crack on to be. The West's awake and says "jobs for the boyos and not those bluenoses up North".

Indeed, to paraphrase St Augustine (another well-known holy man): "Lord, make us united. But not just yet."

by rooster Wed Aug 15, 2007 09:37

"by Sarsfield Tue Aug 14, 2007 21:08
And the difference is...
One will eat you away just as fast as the other.
Did you ever look at the kids and thought, what a life they might have if they were free from all this angst?"

retaliation has had an unfairly hostile press, the system has nothing to do with a savage taste for vigilante bloodbaths, rather, it is a strictcompensation principle. It offers measured and proportionate recompense for wrongs to injured parties.

It slides into tragedy, as Aeschylus shows, when emotion makes the system fail and no one gets to draw the final line. Of course, you see it differently Sarsfield.

by Lincoln Wed Aug 15, 2007 09:02

You bury your head in the sand and believe what you want.

A united Ireland is inevitable my desperate little Unionist friend. The breakdown of the border is already well under way and the Irish Government is not investing so heavily in the north just for the laugh.

This has nothing to do with birth rate- though this thinking betrays your archaic mindset.
It is however interesting that Unionism now expands on 'Never Never Never' and actually feels threatened enough that it must at least present some sort of loosely strung argument beyond that famous sound-bite. Someones cages rattled?

The north is an economic failure, unity will become the only option to address that failure.

by Sarsfield Wed Aug 15, 2007 08:07

"We have moved on and given a two-fingered hasta la vista to the 17th century."

Did you fall into a deep sleep over the 11th and 12th.? The problem is that one side is firmly rooted in a time warp. But never mind, the Irish shilling will soon break them free!!!

by aristotle Tue Aug 14, 2007 23:14

If the Brits are responsible for the criminal gangs on the Protestant side, who is responsible for their mirror image - the INLA narco-thugs on the Catholic side - ?

Thankfully, the one thing we have all (except for the 7 members of the INLA - when they take a break from their drug and protection racketeering) decided is that Northern Ireland will remain part of Great Britain until a majority in the North decides otherwise. Thankfully the equalization of birth-rates has ensured that a United Ireland will never ever happen. Anyhow, the Brits have always welcomed Irish people into Britain irrespective of religion.

We in the South are eternally greatful that the present dispensation has forever delivered us from having to accomodate the OO, INLA, IRA, UDA, etc. etc.

We have moved on and given a two-fingered hasta la vista to the 17th century.

Bye.

by Sarsfield Tue Aug 14, 2007 21:08

"its not hatred, its revenge"

And the difference is...

One will eat you away just as fast as the other.

Did you ever look at the kids and thought, what a life they might have if they were free from all this angst?

by rooster Tue Aug 14, 2007 20:40

"No doubt you would give it your best shot just as you tried to screw the north. That's what all the hatred has reduced you to and sadly you cannot see it."

-tried to screw the North?, we formed the state so why would we want to destroy it, that was the republican movement but we will have our day
you see sarsfield, its not hatred, its revenge

"oh sorry!, the Orange Order hates black people as well"

-really sceallin, you know the order has Lodges in West Africa, so do they hate Black people as well? (top tip, they are black)

by Seaicilín F Tue Aug 14, 2007 19:14

Chuig: Sceptic,

Would you view the Ku Klux Klan with their Halloween costumes and burning crosses in the same way as the Orange marching bands, just people out celebrating and having the craic? 'Sceptic', you lúdramán! The Orange Order are exactly the same as the KKK, only differences being the Orange Order applauds the burning of pictures of murdered Catholic teenagers on Orange bonfires and they like to discriminate and aid and abet those that murder innocent Catholics instead of black people, oh sorry!, the Orange Order hates black people as well, in fact they hate everybody that is not a member of the Orange Order - they are an absolute disgrace to the island of Ireland and should be strongly condemned as a right-wing sectarian extremist organisation.

Good news on the Darren Graham front (the Protestant Co. Fermanagh hurler), he has decided to continue playing hurling and his complaint is being addressed by the GAA, buíochas le Dia! I wish him all the best despite his unfortunate family background. Unlike 'Rooster' the sectarian Orange bigot above, I'm not sectarian at all and welcome everyone regardless of what religion they are into a United Ireland, le cúnamh Dé.

by Sarsfield Tue Aug 14, 2007 18:03

"keep dreaming sarfield! even if it did happen we would screw the 32 counties within a year!"

No doubt you would give it your best shot just as you tried to screw the north. That's what all the hatred has reduced you to and sadly you cannot see it.

by rooster Tue Aug 14, 2007 17:42

"This is a sad analysis. The truth of the matter is actually simple. Britian must declare a date on which it will completely withdraw"

keep dreaming sarfield! even if it did happen we would screw the 32 counties within a year!

by Sarsfield Tue Aug 14, 2007 17:09

Of course Fred Johnston is correct to express concern regarding the way that mafia style gangs were allowed to flourish in the north. The truth is that not only did the British government stand idly by and allow this to happen, they encouraged, aided and abetted the growth of the "loyalist" gangs. The little englanders just cannot bear to let go and they will insist on the union jack flying over the place even if it is nothing more that a vulgar dog eat dog segragated and divided shambles. History is filled with this stuff. Look at the exit from India and what was deliberately created and left behind.

"The criminalised component of what has happened in the North is a highly profitable one and it will be a harder job to dismantle it than it was to dilute or put aside political aspirations."

This is a sad analysis. The truth of the matter is actually simple. Britian must declare a date on which it will completely withdraw and encourage a united Ireland with justice and equality for all and with full participation from all sectors of the population in it's governance. Britian has nothing to offer the people of Ireland now or in the long term.

by Fred Johnston Tue Aug 14, 2007 14:01

Quite right. One might argue, and with certain justification, that concessions were made by Whitehall and Westminster which should never have been made, in the interests of peace. The criminalised component of what has happened in the North is a highly profitable one and it will be a harder job to dismantle it than it was to dilute or put aside political aspirations.

by aristotle Tue Aug 14, 2007 10:25

Dear Sceptic,

You are wasting your sweetness on the desert air.

Sadly, most of the comment on this discussion thread emanates from that small part of the population that has not moved on, and moreover, is determined not to move on. I suspect that it will take a new generation of Northerners - from both sides - whose experience is of living in a peaceful society before the politics of the 17th century becomes a thing of the past. In the meantime, the big problem isn't the OO or Catholic sectarianism (paleolithic forms of political life which will go the way of the dinosaurs given time) but the criminal gangs which are evolving out of the ashes of the UDA, IRA etc.

by Sceptic Tue Aug 14, 2007 09:56

Given the peace settlement, new arrangements, new hopes and all of that, responsible people should not seek to stoke up tribal obsessions again. Going beyond resentments the orange marches can be seen as a bit of a festival and entertainment. Before the troubles RCs were known to come out and watch the parades in Newcastle for one instance. No harm in a dash of colour in an otherwise dull scene, flutes and a few cheerful sally rods marching past. Maybe we could get back to them days.

by Matt Tue Aug 14, 2007 09:20

"The Orange Order is a religous organisation"

thats one HELL of a religion you've got there!

by Jamie. S. Sat Aug 11, 2007 16:41

It seems that if cowardly loyalist scum can not get their hands on a Catholic they will vent their secteranism on other Protestants. This just goes to show the warped mentality which exists within mainstream unionism. The only thing which would have saved the guy in the story was if he was a loyalist thug too. One more innocent life ruined by LOYALIST FILTH.

by Nigel Hardwick Sat Aug 11, 2007 09:04

And then of course the questions came about where I was from. I explained that I was just from the street opposite. They persisted to ask questions and one of the fellows was getting aggressive, throwing digs at me while his mate was trying to hold him back.

The sectarianism of the Orange Order is sufficiently illustrated by the cutting from its Constitution below.

This article from the Irish Times on Friday August 10th 2007 shows how unionist sectarianism works in practice - it is a product of unionist and Orange ideology. It is designed to instill fear in Catholics, and in all Protestants in unionist areas who might question it. This is not the first time that unionists have targeted the 'wrong' person - unionist gunmen machine gunned a group of what it assumed to be a group of young Catholics some years ago, except that they killed a Protestant who was friends with the Catholic teenagers concerned. I bet when the UDA thought about it afterwards, they thought they had done a good job. It does not do for Catholics and Protestants to mix. The Orange Order tells them so.

Shankill hit-and-run victim assaulted by passersby

Gerry Moriarty, Northern Editor

Irish Times August 10th 2007

A young Protestant man who was beaten up on the Shankill area in Belfast because he did not know the words of The Sash My Father Wore has insisted that while the incident scarred him physically, it would not scar him mentally or affect his non-sectarian, peaceful view of life.

Mark Boyd (18) from Ballysillan in north Belfast was assaulted as he lay injured on the Shankill after he was the victim of a hit-and-run driver. He sustained a fractured leg when he was struck by a car and, to his horror and disbelief, then suffered more injuries from men he thought were coming to his aid. In his grandmother's house off the Shankill this week, Mr Boyd was just home from hospital after having a second cast put on his fractured right leg. He said he had been staying with friends in another part of Belfast but decided to ride his motorbike to the home of his grandmother, Lilian Boyd, in Cambrai Street, off the Shankill Road. She had been unwell and Mr Boyd regularly looked after her. "Now she's looking after me," he said.

As he was travelling along the Shankill at about 4am on Sunday, a Citroen car driven by what he thought was a woman in her 40s cut across him, knocking him off his Honda 125.

"When I got up I looked at her and she looked at me, then just did a three-point turn and drove away again," he said. "As she was driving away two fellows came running up, saying 'Are you alright, mate?' I said, 'Aye' and that I was just in the middle of phoning the ambulance. So I handed the mobile phone to one guy and said, 'Will you tell them where we are here?'

"I said to the other guy, 'Is it all right if I lean on your shoulder? I've hurt my leg in some way, I'm not sure what's wrong'. He said, 'Yeah, that's no sweat' . . . And then of course the questions came about where I was from. I explained that I was just from the street opposite. They persisted to ask questions and one of the fellows was getting aggressive, throwing digs at me while his mate was trying to hold him back.

"They asked, 'Who do you know from round here? Are you a Taig [Catholic]?' Could I sing The Sash ?

"I thought they were only messing about at that point. I just rhymed off a few lines that I knew and he said, 'No, not that, the real Sash' . . . he knew I didn't know it.

"Eventually his mate just let him go at me and when I tried to defend myself they just said, 'You're just going to make it worse, we're going to beat the bollocks out of you if you try to fight back'. So that's when I decided to run. So I ran up the street to the Chinese and it was lucky that it was open at that time of the morning."

As he fled his assailants shouted they would wreck his bike, which they did. "It's now a write-off." As for the motivation for the attack: "I think to be honest the guy just wanted a fight.

"It's the combination between the crap these guys are taught throughout their lives from parents and peers and then the drunken rage that goes with it."

The Orange Order is exceptionally sectarian, and so is unionism, explicitly so. They are not Protestant, they are sectarian. They use Protestantism as a prop to plead their own elitist and exclusive role in Ireland. It is the nearest thing to apartheid ideology in Ireland.

No Catholic is safe on the Shankil road - and neither is this Protestant

Papists: don't marry them and don't let them enjoy themselves on a Sunday - an Orange Order

by Watcher Wed Aug 08, 2007 18:00

"So it's agreed, the Orange Order is a sectarian organisation"

The reply,
"no more than any other religous organisation on the island".

The logical conclusion- The Orange Order is a sectarian organisation, agreed?

by rooster Wed Aug 08, 2007 17:45

"So it's agreed, the Orange Order is a sectarian organisation"

-no more than any other religous organisation on the island.

"founded in 1795 to eradicate Roman Catholicism"

-not doing a very good job then, don't be so melodramatic

"protect the Protestant Ascendancy's interests"

-learn your history, it was the Anglican ascendancy

"English King, William of the Oranges"

-King William was of course Dutch as he was from the Dutch Royal House of Orange

"The OO promotes the killing of Catholics and anyone who threatens"

-please state when the OO has ever advocated that in living memory

"The OO like the KKK should be declared illegal and anyone declaring themselves to be a member of such an archaic, despicable right-wing sectarian political organisation should be imprisoned"

-good idea, turn virtually the whole Unionist population into criminals overnight, are you trying to start a Civil War?

"Republicans are not sectarian and never were, republicanism promotes an all-inclusive, multi-coloured, politically United Ireland, fully independent of English rule"

-please don't make me laugh, I can't believe that you actually think that!

by Seaicilín F Wed Aug 08, 2007 14:42

The Orange Order is a 'protest'ant political organisation founded in 1795 to eradicate Roman Catholicism and to protect the Protestant Ascendancy's interests and to worship its only God, the English King, William of the Oranges. The OO promotes the killing of Catholics and anyone that opposes or threatens its narrow little Orange world. It is the most worthless organisation to have ever set-up in Ireland and deserves no recognition whatsoever. The OO like the KKK should be declared illegal and anyone declaring themselves to be a member of such an archaic, despicable right-wing sectarian political organisation should be imprisoned.

By the way, Republicans are not sectarian and never were, republicanism promotes an all-inclusive, multi-coloured, politically United Ireland, fully independent of English rule.

A Rooster, bíodh ciall agat!

by Watcher Wed Aug 08, 2007 09:39

"The Orange Order is a religous organisation and so only permits members of its own religous denominations to join."

So it's agreed, the Orange Order is a sectarian organisation.

by rooster Wed Aug 08, 2007 08:27

The Orange Order is a religous organisation and so only permits members of its own religous denominations to join.
I'll ignore your "whataboutery" for now but please don't use language which others might find offensive. "Taig" is one such word.
Yes protestants took part in the language and national movements but that was before they were hijacked by sectarian elements within republicanism.

by Roostered Fri Aug 03, 2007 11:08

Should it accept Catholics?

It is unionists who have a 'taig' problem - simply sectarian.

Protestants took part in the language movement and the national movement. They did it as citizens. It is unionists who make a big deal out of religion - take the OO for exqmple...... (never mind the yearly bout of sectarian attacks).

by rooster Fri Aug 03, 2007 08:22

By any standard Darren Graham is a remarkable young man. A Protestant, he has suffered more than most in the Troubles with his father and two uncles being murdered by the IRA. No-one could have blamed him if he had shunned any contact with the nationalist community in his native Fermanagh given that tragic backdrop.

To the GAA, sectarianism has seldom, if ever, been a problem because very few Protestants play gaelic games. Its a simple case of numbers, defenders of the organisation will say that no discrimination exists but its simply because for most of the time there is no-one around to heckle or insult. Indeed the organisation tried to improve its image in 2001 by dropping the archaic rule banning members of the security forces from membership.

In its defence the GAA points out that one of its primary rules is that it is not sectarian. Yet it still suffers from a huge credibility problem among Protestants in Northern Ireland. They regard it as an organisation which soley promotes nationalist culture. They have also noted how republican organisations have used GAA grounds for rallies.

This is an acid test for the organisation if it wants to find greater cross-community acceptability.

by Seaicilín F Thu Aug 02, 2007 22:36

Cumann Lúthchleas Gael (“GAA”) is not and never was a sectarian organisation. There has always been Protestant involvement in the GAA. It is incorrect to label the GAA as a sectarian sporting organisation, as in the recent past the GAA has elected a Protestant President, Jack Boothman, and if the GAA was that set against Protestants they would hardly have put a Protestant running the organisation as Commander and Chief.

All genuine sports people and supporters of GAA throughout the 32 counties of Ireland should condemn any sectarian abuse directed at a GAA player. These players do not play the sport for financial reward, but because they have a passion for the sport, and they give us all such great entertainment on a Saturday/Sunday afternoon and deserve respect regardless of what you think of them off the pitch with regard to their political background or occupation, colour or creed, or in this case his family’s peculiar background.

In light of the fact that the only Protestant GAA player in County Fermanagh felt forced out, I think the GAA should conduct an investigation into this anyway regardless of whether he makes a formal complaint or not, to find out the reason why he felt he had to leave. Obviously, this young lad had a talent for the game and it is extremely sad to think he felt pressurised into leaving a sport that really needs quality GAA players, particularly, in Co. Fermanagh.

Please note that none of the nationalist organisations in the 32 counties of Ireland are in any way discriminatory towards Protestants. Conradh na Gaeilge (The Gaelic League) was founded by a great Protestant man from my own county, Ros Comáin, Mr. Douglas Hyde, who was so popular he went on to be elected President of Ireland. Comhaltas Ceoltóirí na hÉireann, I know for a fact has quite a few skilled and greatly respected musicians of the Protestant persuasion, some of whom went on to win All Irelands. Nationalist organisations on this island have never ever discriminated against Protestant people - can the same be said for the Orange Order/KKK? Answer = NO! (‘No’, a word Mr. Paisley used so often that for years I thought he didn’t know any other English words).

I believe Darren Graham is a brave young man and an independent thinker to have taken up the game despite his peculiar family background, and I have great respect for those who make up their own mind and don’t have their minds made up for them! I wish the young Co. Fermanagh hurler well and hope justice will prevail and his complaint will be investigated and that he will be back playing hurling, the game he loves soon, and can put this sorry state of affairs behind him, le cúnamh Dé (with the help of God).

by Fergleen Thu Aug 02, 2007 16:00

"I am thrilled to inform you that all who like to call themselves Protestants, Presbyterians and the many other splinter religions and breakaway factions from the Church of England will all be very welcome into a United Ireland and shall be treated equally and no differently than anyone else on the island. "

Maybe you want to inform the GAA of this Harry as their attitude towards Protestants seems to differ than what you would have us believe. Or mybe Darren Graham is lying and is in some conspiracy with the orange order to tarnish the good name of Catholics?

http://www.u.tv/newsroom/indepth.asp?id=83969&pt=n

by Harry Sat Jul 21, 2007 08:46

An argument. Rooster made an argument. Fantastic.

I am off for the day - a life to lead, it is Saturday, etc. But don't worry, Rooster, I will return. Don't mind the begrudgers.

by Seaicilín F Sat Jul 21, 2007 00:18

Rooster, a chara, I'm impressed at your desire to be included in a United Ireland even at this rather late stage, fáilte romhat isteach!

I am thrilled to inform you that all who like to call themselves Protestants, Presbyterians and the many other splinter religions and breakaway factions from the Church of England will all be very welcome into a United Ireland and shall be treated equally and no differently than anyone else on the island.

I regret to inform you that we can't offer special accommodation exclusively to Unionists like your 'good' self - you may not realise it as a Unionist, but this is, in fact, evidence of a serious character flaw (snobbishness). In order to overcome this extreme snobbishness, Unionists will have to abandon the perception they have that they are privileged people, above all other because they are lovers of King William of the House of Oranges, deserving of special treatment because of this, and accept the fact that they are just normal very average people; this will be extremely hard for them, I know (therapy may be required), but Unionists must realise that they are not above the majority of people on this island, and they cannot rule over the majority and subject them to discrimination, inhumane and barbaric treatment like they did in the past (NB: This is because it is morally wrong to treat people like that!). Please note again: Unionists will be treated like everyone else in a United Ireland no better nor worse - so Unionists will have to deign to come on down from their ‘unholy thrones’ and live and among the rest of us and be treated like the rest of us - so get real and get used of it!

With regard to these ‘Orange’ Halls, they will have to lose their exclusivity in order for them to be tolerated as they are causing great offence to non-Orange people. In a United Ireland these ‘Orange’ Halls will have to be opened up to other colours: Green, Black, Purple (or are ‘Purple’ people the same as ‘Orange’ people??), Blue, Red etc., and completely transformed into something wholesome and worthy of respect - as no one colour should triumph or reign over another (as we all know that’s how wars start!). We can't have such ‘Orange Halls’ of blatant discrimination in the modern world - it doesn’t look good, this is after all, a world of many colours and all should be respected and treated equally - buíochas le Dia!

With regard to religion, personally, I don't give a shite about religion and I know for a fact that there are not 1 million Protestants in Ireland (there isn't even 1 million Catholics on the island!). There may, indeed, be 1 million people who like to call themselves Protestants because it sounds good and respectable, but realistically they are just hypocrites. The majority of people on this island have no religion at all, they think they have a religion, but in reality they don't. There are plenty of people I know who call themselves Catholic, but who don't put the religion into practice, if they did they would be much better people.

In fact, if everyone in the world practised their religion and lived their lives strictly according to their beliefs, there would, indeed, be no wars at all.

Once again, 'Rooster' I hope to welcome you into a multi-coloured United Ireland where equality and respect will reign in the not too distant future.

Sláinte!

by Zzzzzz Fri Jul 20, 2007 23:25

Because Rooster people like Harry are reverse Unionists - i.e. Republican's /Nationalists who are just as bigoted and ignorant as their Unionist equivalents.
Pity yous lot couldn't turn your energy towards doing something useful instead of trying to prolong hatred and secteranism, which is what all this arguing and bickering is about.

by rooster Fri Jul 20, 2007 21:48

Well, its like this, you have Unionists like myself who accept that there is a large section, but still a minority, within our society who are vicous, violent sectarian bigots who need to be opposed and preferably jailed for a long time, in fact I would quite happily go along with stronger measures against them but thats for another thread. These are the people who will happily kick a 12 year olds head in on the grounds that "its just a taig" but to say that every unionist in Northern Ireland does this or thinks like that is just plain old fashion bull!

When presented with attacks on Orange community halls your reaction is "well its not as bad as attacking people is it?"
When presented with attacks on protestants your reaction is "oh thats because its in an interface area so its OK" thats priceless mate!

So then, when you get trolls like yourself who are so one sided in your approach with your holier than thou attitude that in the end we end up just saying bollix to it, and so we go back to banging the the same Orange drum from before. The liberal middle classes have given up politics in Northern Ireland and left it to the more sectarian street politicians. Like Tim Collins once said, when the troubles started the middle classes just went to the golf course and never came back.

Seriously, Harry, apart from attacking the unionist community in your posts why don't you enlighten us with your solutions to the situation?

For example, my previous question, on the island of Ireland you have a million people who will be unionist/protestant/loyalist/members of the Loyal Orders, etc. how do you propose to accommodate them?
(remember that for Ireland to be united they will have to be)

PS theres no such thing as a unionist terrorist, they are by definition Loyalist terrorists!

by Harry Fri Jul 20, 2007 20:14

'Pathetic' is clearly too inadequate a term....

by rooster Fri Jul 20, 2007 19:57

but I think you could argue with your shadow!

Anyway, for all your posts you still haven't condemned or disagreed with any attacks on Unioinists, Orange Halls or anyone else who happens to disagree with your own little narrow viewpoint.

In fact, its people like yourself who encourage these sectarian attacks.

by Harry Thu Jul 19, 2007 08:06

This is what I wrote:
"Amazingly, you put an equal sign between celebrations of dead nationalists, killing all nationalists, or sectarian attacks on nationalists (who you call "symbols of the other communitys [sic]") and a building."

This is what Rooster said I wrote:
“Amazingly, you put an equal sign between celebrations of dead nationalists, killing all nationalists, or sectarian attacks on nationalists.”

For once I agree with Rooster, in that he headlined his contribution: "another one of my pathetic responses". (It shows how dialogue is a pathway to agreement.)

Even the world's greatest dolt would know that I commented on Rooster comparing the killing of people to attacks on buildings. Rooster is not the greatest dolt. He understood this, but tried to obscure the point, by partial quotation. Merely, as he says of his own contribution, "pathetic".

by ROOSTER Wed Jul 18, 2007 17:58

“If that was the case Rooster, you would have led this thread. Instead, yours is the typical unionist reaction: minimalist, only uttered when forced out of you, and only in the context of 'whataboutery' - what about attacks on Orange halls. Amazingly, you put an equal sign between celebrations of dead nationalists, killing all nationalists, or sectarian attacks on nationalists.”

When it comes to whataboutery my friend you can speak with authority for there is no doubt about it you are the expert!

And why is it up to me to lead the thread? Is it my thread? Did I start it?As for the value of such burnings, I didn’t mention an equals you did! Though I’m not sure how you can compare a piece of scrap plywood on a bonfire with the burning of an Orange community hall.

“A quick scan reveals that all of these examples are from so called "interface" clashes. that is, the boundary between nationalist and unionist areas.”

That’s hilarious Harry, “we would never attack anyone, oh that attack! oh but that was in an interface area so its OK” priceless!

by Peggie Letter More Wed Jul 18, 2007 15:50

Some instructive letters (CLICK TO READ)

Irish News July 18 2007 - is God a British protestant (like the British Queen)? (CLICK TO READ)

Irish News July 18 2007 - all flags of the World welcome, except one - probably all burned (CLICK TO READ)

Irish News July 17 2007 - can a bigot change her/his spots? (CLICK TO READ)

Irish News July 17 2007 - individual unionsts "have voiced their disgust". What about organised unionists? (CLICK TO READ)

by Barley Shaker Tue Jul 17, 2007 16:33

IC asks,
"How come I didn't see it before."
Could it be that your a Unionist bigot?
Just asking.
And a piece of advise, stop trying to defend Orangeism. The world is now fully aware of the sectarian nature of it and at present the hope is that all reasonable people will in a short period of time come to realise that all this flag waving and strutting around neighbourhoods where they are not wanted, dressed up like either unneeded extras from a Faulty Towers film lot or toy soldiers, will be allowed to die away gracefully.

by Patrick Henry Tue Jul 17, 2007 12:58

I wonder was IC standing with one hand on his/her hip when they wrote the above comment?
Because the whole comment smacks of school girl bitchiness. Can't put up a proper argument so revert to bitching.

by IC Tue Jul 17, 2007 11:13

So let me get this straight.

1) The majority of attacks in the North are carried out by unionists
2) The majority of attacks on Protestants are actually carried out by Unionists pretending to be Catholics
3) Harry is 100% right and anyone who disagrees with him is wrong
4) The only people who are right are the one who say that Unionists are all anti-Catholic bigots who are hell bent on driving Catholics from our shores
5) Catholics never do anything wrong, ever, and if they do, not that they do, its only to counter the grand master plan of the Orangies who are hell bent on taking over the world and making us all don bowler hats and goose step around saluting the queen and cursing the pope
6) Republican based bonfires and marches have a wonderful carnival atmosphere and burning British flags, chanting anti-Protestant slogans and attacking Protestant homes are all part of this party atmosphere and not designed to offend or hurt anyone. But when the Loyalists do it its purly based on hatred and anti-Catholic sentiment.
7) Harry is a well-balanced individual whose opinions are in no way swayed by his politics, religion or hatred.
8) The Orange Order was actually infiltrated by the Nazis in 1942 and are planning on starting a new fourth reich some time this century
9) The Orange Order secretly funded Saddam Hussein and supplied him with Mustard gas
10 ) Fred West was actually a member of the Orange Order and all those women he murdered were all Catholic, but the Orangies covered it up incase it made them look bad
11) All evil in the world is as a result of Unionism. It is the root of all evil and anyone outside the Unionist community who committs an evil act only does so as a consequence of Unionists actions.

Right. Now I understand. Its so simple. How come I didn't see it before.

by Harry Mon Jul 16, 2007 20:11

A quick scan reveals that all of these examples are from so called "interface" clashes. that is, the boundary between nationalist and unionist areas. Inevitably, in these areas enmity is reciprocated. Catholics, like Protestants, are human too.

In North Belfast, in the Torrens estate, most of the Protestant families have moved out, usually to suburban areas, leaving the poorest or the elderly behind. Catholics, who constitute over 80% of the need for housing in the area, cannot move in, because of organised unionist paramilitary violence. The houses become derelict and unionist paramilitaries would rather destroy the houses than see Catholics living in them. Unionist politicians claim there is a nationalist "invasion" of unionist areas - they state this because they believe in the housing apartheid or separation of the two communities. That was the basis of the unionist attacks on children going to Holy Cross School some years ago. Nationalists have no problem living beside unionists. Unionists have a problem living amongst nationalists or Catholics. When nationalists successfully move into an area, the unionists start to move out. It is a link between sectarianism and racism. It is the unionist equivalent of 'white flight'.

I have no doubt that life is pretty miserable for anyone living near the flashpoints, but unionism drives sectarianism. It is in the the structure of the northern state, a state st up for one purpose, to guarantee a sectarian majority or one group based on their religion. It is completely reactionary, so reactionary that unionists are no longer allowed to rule as a political majority, because they are incapable as a democratic majority of ruling democratically.

I would put one question to the poster above, a crude question but a relevant one. How come catholics die, how come Catholics suffer the vast majority of sectarian attacks?

by LMAO Mon Jul 16, 2007 19:19

Nah sure the Prods are the only ones who do any wrong.
Nationalists would never do anything secterian.
Isn't it amazing what 2 minutes on google will turn up.

http://www.u.tv/newsroom/indepth.asp?pt=n&id=70223
http://www.u.tv/newsroom/indepth.asp?pt=n&id=62134
http://www.u.tv/newsroom/indepth.asp?pt=n&id=8096
http://www.u.tv/newsroom/indepth.asp?pt=n&id=68827
http://www.u.tv/newsroom/indepth.asp?pt=n&id=66565
http://www.u.tv/newsroom/indepth.asp?pt=n&id=65632
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/incoming/article20453...5.ece
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/incoming/article11174...4.ece

I deplore secterian violence.
But I REALLY deplore a complete hypoctites and their holier-than-thou bulls**t..

by Harry Mon Jul 16, 2007 07:13

Roster:
"Unlike yourself I condemn the violence and thuggery that comes from my own community...."

If that was the case Rooster, you would have led this thread. Instead, yours is the typical unionist reaction: minimalist, only uttered when forced out of you, and only in the context of 'whataboutery' - what about attacks on Orange halls. Amazingly, you put an equal sign between celebrations of dead nationalists, killing all nationalists, or sectarian attacks on nationalists (who you call "symbols of the other communitys [sic]") and a building. As I said before, pathetic. Go away and have a good think - but not too much or your head might fall off.

by rooster Sun Jul 15, 2007 22:19

Rooster's pathetic response
by Harry Sat Jul 14, 2007 14:49
What has rooster to say about Irish unionists celebrating the deaths of teenage Irish nationalists at Orange Order twelfth bonfires? Nothing.
What has he to say about Irish unionists celebrating the killing of all those who do not share the unionist 'philosophy' of life (or death in this case)? Nothing

Well Harry, if you want my response to those things look at my post at 1026 on Saturday July 14th.
Unlike yourself I condemn the violence and thuggery that comes from my own community, can you say the same?

by Harry Sun Jul 15, 2007 19:00

"You can't accept that Nationalists/Republicans are just as capable and likely to vent their badness as Unionists/Loyalists.."

I can accept that all human beings are capable of "badness". That is not the point. Argument moves forward by way of evidence that backs it up. I will avoid using evidence here, in the knowledge that I have produced quite an amount, without response.

African Americans are as "capable" of racism as members of he KKK. But, if you were to put forward the notion that both sides were equally 'guilty' of racism, i think you would face some severe opposition.

It is a combination of class tensions, interspersed with reactionary support for imperialist politics that gives rise to orange and unionist sectarianism, not "badness". As people, unionists are just human beings - to use a tautology. It is the political environment that they grow up within that leads them to irrational hatred for people who are no different from them. Nationalist politics tends not to produce this kind of reactionary mindset. That is why nationalists do not go around seeking the nearest Protestant to attack and kill. They do not march in over 2,500 marches to proclaim their dominance - to mark out territory. The nationalist opposition to sectarian marches through their areas is progressive, simply because it opposes a form of sectarianism. Opposing intolerance is not a form of intolerance.

What people like Eddie need to face up to is that unionist politicians - even those in organisations that killed Catholics because they were Catholics - can speak openly in debate in nationalist areas, whereas a republican cannot do so in a loyalist area - the reason being because a Catholic cannot do so, even simply as an uninvolved citizen.

When unionism faces up to this fundamental problem, indeed when it recognises it as a problem, we may be move forward. Until then 'KAT' (or 'KAI') will appear on unionist bonfires, alongside a celebration of killing named Catholics, killed by unionists, or a celebration of the deaths of Catholics, who have simply died. When this grisly celebration ceases, and when young unionists are not tempted to kill a Catholic, then we have a basis for normal politics. though, in my opinion, the day that happens is the day that unionism dies - because I don't think that unionism can survive without sectarian hatred. But that's just my opinion, and I think the evidence is there to back it up. But you don't like evidence, Eddie, because it upsets your view of the world. You should be upset.

by The Barley Shaker Sun Jul 15, 2007 14:00

D.Carney tells us,

"Yes Protestants beat up Catholics, burn flags, taunt Catholics, make hate-filled and obnoxious remarks, set fires, etc, etc. Yes Catholics do the same"

It is just plain dishonest to suggest that the divisions are maintained by both sides equally. The Orange Order exists to maintain the divide and to stop the planted from integrating and "becoming more Irish than the Irish themselves" as had happened to previous attempts at plantation prior to the plantation of Ulster.
It is in the best interests of everyone, and particularly our children, that the community should fully integrate and work together to improve everyones lot. But judging by the almost schoolboy comments of some Orange men defending the burning of Irish flags and the placing of the names of murdered children on bonfires, it ain't going to happen any day soon. And the fact is that unless integration occurs willingly, the losers will be so called loyalists. There is no way that a modern country like Britian can continue indefinately looking the other way when such naked sectarianism is enacted in it's name.

by Eddie Sun Jul 15, 2007 13:34

Hi Harry.
Of off the comments written here D.Carneys is actually the most truthful and accurate.
You can't accept that Nationalists/Republicans are just as capable and likely to vent their badness as Unionists/Loyalists are. Be nice to think this is because you're naive and innocent. But in reality I suspect its because you hate Loyalists so much it prevents you from taking an honest and subjective look at the world around you.
Give it up mate - the only person you're convincing with all your comments is yourself.
As for the evidence you call for - it's where it's always been. Published in local and National newapapers on a weekly basis and in people's eyes and in people's memories as they've had to live with it all their lives.
And posting your one-sided comments isn't going to rewrite history or wash away people's memories.
No doubt you'll tell me I'm wrong as well and post dozens more stories on here in a pathetic attempt to justify your biased views. Well go ahead cos as D.Carney says - it will only show you up for what you are.

by Harry Sun Jul 15, 2007 11:13

"Yes Protestants beat up Catholics, burn flags, taunt Catholics, make hate-filled and obnoxious remarks, set fires, etc, etc. Yes Catholics do the same. If any of you are stupid enough to believe that one side’s ignorance is any less than the others, then you are also guilty of ignorance and are painfully demonstrating this fact by your continued fighting."

"Yes, Catholics do the same." Really? Give us the evidence then.

Of course, it has nothing to do with Catholics and Protestants. it has to do with unionism and nationalism. There are many, many Protestants who are repulsed by the sectarian unionism of those who claim that they pursue their sectarianism in the name of the Protestant religion, who state that the essence of being British is to be a Protestant (they have some support for this, given the sectarian elements in the British Constitution). See the post about the Reverend David Armstrong, above - forced out of his parish in Limavady for asking a Catholic priest to enter his (then) Presbyterian church. Armstong is now in the Chrch of Ireland and Minsters in Carrigaline in Co Cork.

Unionism tends towards reactionary politics on the national question, in support of British nationalism or imperialism. Since there is no rational secular basis for this stance at a popular level it resolves into forms of sectarianism and racism. If imperialism finds it has a problem with Arab nationalism, that becomes fused with elements of Islam, then unionists will become fanatically anti Muslim (just as they were fanatically anti-Jewish during the First world War (see more info on unionist antisemitism - anti-Muslim after 9-11 and and anti Jewish during WW1 - and web links, above).

Politically based religious sectarianism is a product of politics, geography and context. In Boston, in the USA, in the 1970s racist opposition to 'bussing' (desegregating the school system) was lead by people of Irish extraction, who were Catholics. Catholics can be racist and sectarian too. But they did not turn their irrational opposition into a systematic racist ideology, because they suffered opposition from other white people, including from within their own community. The equivalent does not happen within unionism because opposition is quickly identified, isolated and terrorised - again See David Armstong, whose life and that of his children was threatened, merely because he thought he should help a an adjoining catholic community whose church had been bombed (yes, you guessed it, by unionists).

If the terms 'Catholic' and 'Protestant' occur often in what I write, it is because those are the terms on which unionists attack nationalists. It is the 'marker' they apply to their enmity. Defence of liberty is identified with defence of Protestantism, and Catholicism is defined as the enemy. This does not imply support on my part for either religion, as a religion. However, failure to see that unionism (not Protestantism) drives sectarianism is to be politically blind. So, I would say, D Kearny, that your post is not only wrong - demonstrated by your complete misreading of the thread, and your failure, probably, to read it in the first place, before sucking some ideas out of your thumb. It is patronising as well.

The Reverend David Armstrong (now Church of Ireland, then Presbyterian) – his life and that of his children threatened, kicked out of Limavady by the Orange Order for befriending an adjoining Catholic community, whose church was bombed (by unionists) – se

by D.Carney Sun Jul 15, 2007 03:51

I guess it was inevitable that this thread was going to be taken over by the idiots who continue to drive the divisions within the communities with their “Who’s religion is better”, “North vs South”, “Derry Vs Londonderry”, etc juvenile drivel.

Unfortunately such people seldom see past the end of their own ignorance and are now so caught up in trying to outdo each other and score points over each other, they fail to see just how pathetic and ignorant they look to the rest of us. Like 14 year old kids standing on either side of a peace line and hurling taunts and abuse at each other.

The truth is that no one side has the monopoly on pig-ignorance, barbarism, hypocrisy, lunacy or any other of the negativities which infect so many people in this country. You can all argue away for the next year citing links to stories and newspaper articles and all the rest of the wonderful material you have been coming up with and it will not change this fact.

Yes Protestants beat up Catholics, burn flags, taunt Catholics, make hate-filled and obnoxious remarks, set fires, etc, etc. Yes Catholics do the same. If any of you are stupid enough to believe that one side’s ignorance is any less than the others, then you are also guilty of ignorance and are painfully demonstrating this fact by your continued fighting.

Grow up!

by beingdiplomatic Sun Jul 15, 2007 02:47

Had a look at that site.That doctored photo is not just "OTT", it is a clear indication of the level of the unionist mentality. I hope the government will take note of that picture should they be considering meeting a delegation from FAIR. They will have to decide whether these are the type of people they are prepared to entertain, or whether the appropriate thing is just to have a junior civil servant to accept whatever "letter of protest" (diatribe) the bigots want to present next time they inflict themselves on the good people of Dublin.
Should they decide to actually allow anyone more senior to meet Frazier and his cohort it will be an indication of how they see themselves - a bunch of inferiority-complexed shoneens bowing to their masters.

by man in Laois Sat Jul 14, 2007 23:40

There is to my mind at least a couple of strange historical oddities to the Orange Orders and Black Presbytery's celebration of The Battle of Boyne.

That the actual date was 13th July which leads me to suppose that it is the superstition that surrounds that number, that has caused them to put their celebration on the 12th?

King William being a Protestant himself, was a member of the Royal Dutch Household and his personal bodyguard comsisted of twentyfive thousand Catholic troops belong of the Royal Household.

So it seems to me that they have intentionally or conveniently forgotten their own history?

Thus I would be very interested in reading Roosters comments ?

by SillyFrazier Sat Jul 14, 2007 22:00

indeed it is, the work of FAIR at least.

taken from victims.org.uk,
look in the corner of the Bobby Sands pic.

Thats completely O.T.T

thats not provocative at all Willie

by Sharon . - Individual . Sat Jul 14, 2007 19:25

Hi Seaicilín F !

" Do you even know what Contae Dhoire/Co. Derry means you lúdramán dúbailte! "

-the other one being 'Níseoinínisinngoléir' .

;-)

Sharon.

by Seaicilín F Sat Jul 14, 2007 15:55

Rooster, please enlighten us as to what is in an 'Orange Hall' anyway (apart from an unholy 'shrine' to the British King William of the Oranges), I presume pictures of murdered Catholics alongside those Orange people who tortured them brutally. Do the Orange Halls have grand exhibitions on the history of bowler hats & Orange sashes, bonfires, and the instruments/weapons used to torture innocent Irish Catholics? These 'Black Lodges' don't sound any better (I can't bear to think what's in them!). Thankfully, I have been a very fortunate person to date because I have never met an Orange person in my life (my ancestors were not so lucky!), and I hope my good fortune continues and that I never ever do!

With regard to your fictitious and pathetically named 'Londonderry', I really think you should take a look at reality and educate yourself about Derry and Ireland, I suggest a nice scenic trip in a helicopter around the island of Ireland might expose you to reality. Do you even know what Contae Dhoire/Co. Derry means you lúdramán dúbailte!

'Rooster', I will agree with you on one matter we are, indeed, foreign to each other, buíochas le Dia, I'd hate to think I'd have anything in common with someone who refused to condemn those who set alight pictures of murdered Irish teenagers and the Irish tricolour -
nb: I did say that I condemned the burning of any country's flag above.

by Harry Sat Jul 14, 2007 14:49

What has rooster to say about Irish unionists celebrating the deaths of teenage Irish nationalists at Orange Order twelfth bonfires? Nothing.

What has he to say about Irish unionists celebrating the killing of all those who do not share the unionist 'philosophy' of life (or death in this case)? Nothing

He reduces it to the usual unionist response: 'Hah, here is an attack on an Orange Hall I have discovered and which I now, triumphantly, wish to draw to everyone's attention. Everyone is equally guilty. We kill them, they put paint on our buildings. We are two warring tribes and require British assistance in holding the 'two sides' apart from each other's throats, etc, etc'. Pathetic.

The media's determination not to publicise those disagreeable aspects of sectarian Orange ideology ('KAT' - kill all taigs) noted in a post above about RTE, receives a further blow in a letter form Jude Collins in today's Irish Times (14 July 2007) - reproduced here for all to appreciate (even Rooster).

I invite the neutrals to examine the images further up this thread, and the text, in order to assess what is going on here.

Jude Collins Irish Times letter, 14 July 2007, notes Irish Times ignoring 'KAT' slogan - just like RTE (see post above) CLICK TO READ

by Roostered Sat Jul 14, 2007 12:56

There is no county in the UK called 'Londonderry' either.

The county in question is of course Derry or more correctly Doire, no amount of revisionism will ever change that.

This is county is in Ireland. Nowhere else. Ask 90% of the people who live there. They'll tell you...

by rooster Sat Jul 14, 2007 10:36

Co. Londonderry ?? - never heard of it.
by Seaicilín F Sat Jul 14, 2007 01:12
I note 'Rooster' that you haven't condemned the fact that the Orange bonfires included pictures of murdered Irish teenagers, Irish politicians and the Irish tricolour, and I can only assume from your silence that you approve of such behaviour, which speaks volumes about the type of person you are.

p.s. There is no county in Ireland called "Londonderry" - you are obviously foreign.

I note 'Sceailin' that you haven't condemned the burning of Orange Halls, Black Lodges and I can only assume from your silence that you approve of such behaviour, which speaks volumes about the type of person you are.

ps that may be so, but there is a county in the United Kingdom called "Londonderry" - if your from the Republic of Ireland then yes I am foriegn!

by rooster Sat Jul 14, 2007 10:26

"Bit of a difference in attacking a few Orange halls and attacking a few innocent Catholics Rooster.
Still, I guess what we are seeing is classic Norn Iron heritage at its finest."

Not really Burt, all these burnings should be condemned equally because although the things which are being burned may have little or no financial value they have the effect of stoking the fires of discrimination and hate.
While people consider it acceptable to burn symbols of the other communitys then the peace process will always be just that, a process with no end in sight.

by Seaicilín F Sat Jul 14, 2007 01:12

I note 'Rooster' that you haven't condemned the fact that the Orange bonfires included pictures of murdered Irish teenagers, Irish politicians and the Irish tricolour, and I can only assume from your silence that you approve of such behaviour, which speaks volumes about the type of person you are.

p.s. There is no county in Ireland called "Londonderry" - you are obviously foreign.

by Burt Fri Jul 13, 2007 21:06

Bit of a difference in attacking a few Orange halls and attacking a few innocent Catholics Rooster.
Still, I guess what we are seeing is classic Norn Iron heritage at its finest. Tit-for-tat. Still, I suppose its better people retaliate against each other by posting comments on a web site than in the usual mindless moronic style of beating and murdering each other.
God bless the internet.

by rooster Fri Jul 13, 2007 20:48

Overnight attacks at Orange halls

Two Orange halls in Northern Ireland have been attacked overnight.
Paint was thrown over the walls of an Orange hall in Claudy, County Londonderry and one in Rasharkin in County Antrim.

Claudy Orangeman Billy Millar said community relationships in the village were good.

"The nationalist people in Claudy are very friendly and I'm very friendly with them," he said.

The incident came after a spate of attacks on Orange halls in County Armagh.

by rooster Fri Jul 13, 2007 20:46

Below article taken from todays BBC Northern Irelend news website:

Apprentice Boys hall is attacked

An Apprentice Boys hall in Moy in County Tyrone has been damaged in an arson attack.
The fire at the building on Gorestown Lane was reported at about 1740 BST on Friday.

When emergency services arrived they found the door had been forced and a fire set just inside. Minor smoke and fire damage was caused.

The incident follows attacks on Orange halls in Rasharkin and Claudy in the early hours of Thursday.

There has also been a spate of attacks on Orange halls in County Armagh.

First Minister Ian Paisley said he had discussed the attacks with Security Minister Paul Goggins on Friday.

"I am extremely concerned at the pattern of attacks on Orange halls that is again very much in evidence," he said.

"Those elements who are determined to attack our culture and heritage must be caught and made accountable for their actions."

by Harry - The Well, Well, Well Foundation Fri Jul 13, 2007 09:30

Back to basics.

This morning the Irish news leads with a story of how Peter Neill, the father of a Catholic, 'Aaron' who died of heart disease, removed an offensive and sectarian banner from a unionist bonfire celebrating the Twelfth of July Orange Marches.

The banner contained the names of two dead Catholics, including Aaron's name, and asked, "Whose Next". According to the PSNI, who told Neill they would have to liaise with community leaders", before removing the banner, this was not the only bonfire with these offensive slogans. Last year Michael Mcilveen , killed in a sectarian attack, was the unionist's target of choice on the top of bonfires (alongside Irish flags and effigies of republican politicians) - story above, photograph below.

It is time some people woke up and smelled the coffee. A poster above points out that RTE briefly and without comment showed a bonfire with KAT ("Kill all Taigs", sometimes KAI or "Kill all Irish") scrawled on an Irish tricolour on the RTE news on Tuesday evening (July 11). The line was that this was a "peaceful twelfth", repeated on the RTE news yesterday.

A peaceful expression of sectarian hatred. Yeah right.

Do nationalists, as a rule, go around looking for Protestants to attack and kill? They do not. This is a unionist problem that unionists, as unionists, need to address. It is a product of sectarian unionist ideology.

I ask again, where do young unionist sectarian attackers and killers get encouragement, what influences them?

Celebrating the deaths of Catholics - how unionists celebrate the 'Twelfth' - CLICK TO READ

"I didn't want a couple of hundred people standing around this bonfire all cheering over my son's death" - CLICK TO READ

Another dead Catholic, Michael McIlveen the unionist target of choice in 2006. McIlveen was a victim of a unionist sectarian killing

by Red Jed Thu Jul 12, 2007 23:14

Iosaf - I don't know what you're on.....but can I have some?

by iosaf Thu Jul 12, 2007 22:28

She kicked with the other foot and was all things considered very traditional in her prejudices. It was a great shock for the family when her emails and sms texts and such like were aired in court. Of course that was after my grand-da was alledged to batter her to death. Ah go on. I'm making it up. This sort of stuff should be repulsive. We've moved on now of course. There's a chinese woman in the assembly and a nigerian man as mayor and a lad from tallaght on 2 years (1 year suspended) sentence.

tis old & it is beautiful and the colours they are fine. Being the anarchist intellectual weedy type I am, I sometimes sympathise with the hypothetical grannie and wish I'd been around to lather the grand-da. But he was the wage-earner. The one with the job. The one with the strategy and latin mass. I digress..,

by Seaicilín F Thu Jul 12, 2007 20:12

Well, I was told by a teacher when I was in school many years ago that the Orange in the Irish National Flag represented the Orangemen and the Green represented the native Irish people and that was always my understanding of it. I don't like the tricolour anyway, I prefer the Four Provinces flag as it truly symbolises Ireland and is unique. The tricolour is boring and unoriginal as it is done and copied in the same style as the French and Italian flags.

The Four Provinces of Ireland - my preference for Irish National Flag

by 3r's - ribbid ribbid ribbid Thu Jul 12, 2007 19:41

wikipedia :- The orange represents the mainly Protestant minority who were supporters of William of Orange. He, of the House of Orange and originally the Stadtholder of the Netherlands, had defeated the Irish Catholics at the Battle of the Boyne in 1690. It was included in the Irish flag in an attempt to reconcile Protestants in Ireland with the Irish independence movement. The white in the centre signifies a lasting truce between the two cultures and a living together in peace. The flag, as a whole, is intended to symbolise the inclusion and hoped-for union of the people of different traditions on the island of Ireland, which is expressed in the Constitution as the entitlement of every person born in Ireland to be part of the independent Irish nation, regardless of ethnic origin, religion or political conviction.

Taoiseach's office 11 June 2007

The national flag of Ireland is a tricolour of green, white and orange. The flag is twice as wide as it is high. The three colours are of equal size and the green goes next to the flagstaff. The flag was first introduced by Thomas Francis Meagher in 1848 who based it on The National FlagFrench tricolour. The green represents the older Gaelic tradition while the orange represents the supporters of William of Orange. The white in the centre signifies a lasting truce between the 'Orange' and the 'Green'. It was not until the Rising of 1916, when it was raised above the General Post Office in Dublin, that the tricolour came to be regarded as the national flag. It is now enshrined in the Constitution of Ireland.

sure there's even a pdf file you can print out & make your own one for free http://www.taoiseach.gov.ie/attached_files/Pdf%20files/...g.pdf
and of course without any exact legally binding specifications on size or ratio of colours (you'd be mindful that the national anthem which FF changed back in the bad auld days which you may not legally sing without infringing copyright ( c/f http://indymedia.ie/article/68712?&condense_comments=fa...84284 and http://indymedia.ie/article/68712?&condense_comments=fa...84299 )

oh that's not our flag. our's is black.

by Barry - 32 csm Thu Jul 12, 2007 19:33

It represents the native "gaels" for want of a better term and those later descendants of 17th century settlers united in a single , independent and sovereign national republic , not simply peace between them . There is a pronounced rather than subtle difference . Its a revolutionary republican flag , not a pacifist one .

by Baz Thu Jul 12, 2007 19:11

Seaicilín

Just to correct you on one point. The orange in our National flag does not represent orange men.
It represents the descendants of 17th-century British colonists (the group which supported William of Orange in the War of the Two Kings, 1689-91). It has nothng to do with the orange order.
The flag was meant to represent peace between the Native Irish and the Settlers. Now that we are all native Irish (by this I mean anyone born in Ireland regardless of religion) people equate this to peace between Catholics and Protestants.

by Seaicilín F Thu Jul 12, 2007 18:25

I will never approve of nor respect the Orange Order, as there is nothing to respect. I deplore these Orange bonfires which contain the Irish flag, photographs of Irish politicians and young murdered Irish teenagers being set alight. I find this behaviour completely outrageous, but it does show up these people for what they really are, completely callous and sectarian, lacking greatly in any sort of decency and moral values. Also, since the bonfire is an ancient Irish custom, it's extraordinary that they employ this method of native Irish celebration to commemorate an English battle for the foreign English throne which, unfortunately for Ireland, took place on our soil - do they not know any English customs or folk dances (dancing around the ‘Maypole’) or traditional English tunes?

By the way, I was never particularly fond of the Irish tricolour, as it contains the symbolic Orange, representing the sectarian Orange Order (strange they should burn it then!). I find it extremely embarrassing having to explain the Orange on the flag to tourists, who can’t believe such an openly sectarian organisation who never miss an opportunity to express their hatred of Catholics and of other colours and creeds, could be represented on the Irish national flag.

Also, I don't agree with burning any country's flag, it is totally unacceptable behaviour, because to me it represents all the people of that country, and you can't hate everybody in a country, no matter how much you detest their government's foreign policies, or how many despicable wars they get their country involved in around the world.

by Harry Thu Jul 12, 2007 10:07

KAT = Kill all Taigs
sometimes replaced by
KAI = Kill all Irish
When asked, unionists say KAI stands for an obscure Norwegian footballer who played for Glasgow Rangers in the 1960s - very convincing.

by Sarsfield Thu Jul 12, 2007 09:57

The large bonfire illustrated on the news last night had KAT written on the Irish flag. It speaks volumes for the authorities in the UK that such sectarianism is allowed to be openly displayed. A part of the civilised world?
But what is truely sad is that this hatred and bigotry is being handed on to the children to blight their lives.

by Harry Thu Jul 12, 2007 09:39

Should be third picture, above

Unionist 'culture' showing 'respect' for the nationalist variety

by Harry Thu Jul 12, 2007 09:37

In addition to comments above - here are some pictures (Click 'em to get full size - you might want to save them as a memento of this great 'folk' festival).

A bonfire 'dedicated' to Michael McIlveen, a victim of unionist killers

One unionist politician's considered reaction to the sectarian killing of Michael McIlveen (Daily Ireland May 12 2006)

Unionist 'culture' showing 'respect' for the nationalist variety

by Harry Thu Jul 12, 2007 09:19

This is all very interesting, but it misses the point.

Orange bonfires are designed to tell the nationalist community that they are being symbolically burned to death. That is why the bonfires are bedecked with Irish flags and effigies of nationalist or republican politicians (usually in the form of election posters, specially preserved for the purpose). When you look at the bonfires before they are set alight, they have a superficially unusual appearance - green, white and orange colours, Sinn Fein election posters, and so on.

Then the bonfires are set alight and the images are symbolically burned. As we are constantly being informed, symbols stand for something. In this case burning people to death

In case anyone thinks this is just 'harmless fun' (however environmentally damaging), many of the revelers would be happy to attack the nearest 'taig' should one be be foolish enough to make an appearance.

by Seaicilín F Wed Jul 11, 2007 23:05

History of Bonfires in Ireland:

Bonfires are, indeed, an ancient Irish custom and have a rich history in Celtic Ireland. Even today it is a traditional Irish custom for Irish people to light bonfires in celebration of the winning football/hurling/soccer etc., team’s homecoming, or to celebrate weddings and, of course, Halloween (whose origins can be traced back to the great Celtic fire festival of Samhain).

There are 8 Celtic fire festivals which are commemorated with bonfires throughout Ireland every year, these are as follows:

Samhain Festival - 1st November - meaning ‘Summer’s end’, is a time when darkness triumphs over light. This is a solemn occasion. A time when the veil between the living and the dead is at its thinnest and supernatural forces are at their most powerful. It’s celebrated with great big bonfires throughout Ireland and it has been said that the dead return to warm themselves around the bonfire and mix with the living. Certain people, poets usually, in pagan times could enter the saol eile/Otherworld through the doorway of sidhe at the royal ‘Hill of Tara’.

Winter Solstice 21st December - celebrated with a massive great bonfire.

Imbolc Festival - 1st February - this fire festival celebrated the beginning of the end of Winter. It centred around the Celtic Goddess of Fertility Bridget and was concerned with fertility in livestock and other living beings. The sacred Celtic fire is strongly associated with Bríd, her name meaning ‘fiery arrow’ - ‘the flame of inspiration’, also known as ‘the flame in the heart of all women’ which relates to the absolute authority of the woman in the house.

Equinox 21st March - also celebrated with a massive bonfire.

Bealtaine Festival, 1st May (May Day) - called after the God of Light, ‘Belenus’. At this time all household fires were extinguished and great big bonfires were lit on hilltops and all household fires were lit from this great bonfire, gaining the blessing of the God of Light to encourage the Sun’s warmth on Earth - NB: we must put in more effort next year! Holy Wells around Ireland were also visited on this day, a visitor would walk 3 times around a holy well, then they would throw in a silver coin, after which while thinking of their wish, they would drink from the well using their hands and when this was all done, they would tie a piece of coloured cloth to a nearby tree branch. This had all to be done in silence and when the sun wasn’t in sight and the visitor would leave the well before sunrise. A May Queen was also elected by an elder lady of importance and the Celtic May Queen would lead the hymns to the rising sun around the bonfire.

Summer Solstice - 21st June - celebrated with a great big bonfire.

Lúnasa/Lughnasadh - 1st August - The festival of Lugh, the Sun God. This festival was mainly concerned with harvest time and was celebrated with a massive bonfire lit on hilltops and people would dance around the bonfire and recite poetry and romantic and/or heroic warrior tales. It was a happy time of celebration of the harvest and a time when the most benevolent aspects of the Gods and the saol eile were present. A time when Celtic warriors would return from the battlefields to begin harvesting the crops. It was also a time for trial marriages and marriage contracts. The festival also celebrated skills and many competitions were held such as horse racing and also horse trading and tests of strength etc.

Autumnal Equinox - 23rd September - a large bonfire was lit to celebrate.

So there you have it, the ‘silly billies’ in the Orange Order are lighting bonfires and practising and honouring an ancient Irish Celtic tradition which stretches as far back as Celtic Pagan Ireland.

Unfortunately, the 'Orange' bonfires are not lit to ward off evil spirits but are lit to attract them and no good can ever come of them!

by Red Jed Wed Jul 11, 2007 20:02

Good point about the bonfires. Seems that unionists are not just anti-Catholic, but anti-environmental as well.

by Patrick Henry Wed Jul 11, 2007 14:54

I was just wondering now that the season of bonfires is upon us, wasn't the lighting of bonfires a Celtic pagan custom deriving from the Celtic festival of Samhain? It's a bit weird that people who are anti Celtic and supposedly Christian now built bonfires higher and higher.

by fdr Wed Jul 11, 2007 13:19

Good comment harry.
You're making a lot of sense. The OO is synonymous with sectarianism and bigotry. It has nothing to do with protestantism, which is a christian religion. Would Christ join the OO, insist on his marching 'rights' and chant anti-catholic slogans? If any OO member thinks the answer to that is 'No' then he is a hypocrite.

by Ed Wed Jul 11, 2007 02:21

Cheers Harry. Appreciate the feedback to my questions. You're making some very valid points.
I understand what you are saying, although I would not brand all Unionists, or Orange Men as "sectarian".

That said, i have witnessed the kind of biggotry you mentioned yesterday. A group of Loyalist thugs coming from a near by Loyalist area putting up their flags in a mixed housing development well off the parade route. Why would they do this but to taunt Catholics and try and intimidate them. Nothing more than the equivalent of dogs pissing against lamposts. When asked not to put a flag up in front of a (Protestant) neighbours house, he was met with verbal abuse and one threatened him with a hammer. As he walked away disgusted they chanted "UDA UDA".

Its hard not to be embittered by such actions, but if we can get rid of this mentality and start to foster one of tolerance and respect, then I see no reason why Unionists can not celebrate their culture and Republicans their culture, all without any of the malice or spite which many on both sides infuse into it.

Anyone care to hazard a guess as to how many lifetimes it will take? Certainly won't happen in mine.

by Harry Wed Jul 11, 2007 01:12

So whats the whole point to this topic?

"Are you implying that all Unionists are linked to the UVF or other loyalist terror gangs?"

NO, but unionism is an inherently sectarian ideology - the association of the Protestant religion with British nationality is inherently sectarian. Not necessarily violently sectarian, but violence or tolerance of violence against Catholics is along a continuum of unionist attitudes.

Are you implying that the Unionist culture is based mainly on anti-Catholicism?

YES in the main, usually a reactionary anti-Catholicism. The unionist party considered and defeated a proposal to allow Roman Catholics to join as late as 1960. Ian Paisley's Democratic Unionist Party was formerly the Protestant Unionist Party. The Orange Order is a sectarian anti-Catholic organisation.

"Are you saying that Unionists should not be allowed to have their culture or celebrate it in public?"

NO, but they must not go all 'hurt' when it is criticised. People who think it is part of their 'culture' to celebrate sectarian killers should not be permitted to provocatively march past their victims or potential victims in coat trailing exercises. If the 10 years that the Orange Order has not been able to march down the Garvaghy Road or the Omeau Road, puts manners on the Orange Order, then it will have been a worthwhile exercise. But I will believe when I see it - the manners I mean - especially when the Orange campaign to march down the road cost the lives of the Quinn twins and catholics killed by Billy Wright and his friends. Normal people do not march where they are not appreciated, bigots insist on going there, in force.

"Or do you think that Unionists should still be allowed to celebrate their culture, but need to do more to discourage loyalist thugs from using it as an excuse to vent their ignorance on the Catholic community?"

SEE answer above

"Its kind of hard to get the point you’re trying to make because just you keep citing reports of attacks on Catholics, so its not really surprising that some people are taking you as anti-Unionist/anti-Protestant. I’m not saying that you are, I’m just saying you need to stop trying to score points and actually start making points and conclusions rather than just making it look like you are drumming up anti-Unionist feeling."

I ADMIT to having anti unionist "feelings" because unionists have never been forced to think thorough their own sectarianism. Many unionists think it is sectarian to oppose unionist sectarianism. In other words, they do not know what sectarianism is (not surprisingly as it is a form of prejudice, which is a form of ignorance).

To give one example, with which this thread is replete, the tradition of random attacks on members of the other community is mainly a unionist tradition. That is simply a fact. It happened to Michael McIlveen (see post above), Damien O'Loan (see article, click to read) and to Robert Hamill (see amnesty web link below). Catholics suffer 90% of sectarian attacks. The people doing the attacking are unionists. Unionists need to take responsibility for the sectarianism that is a product of unionist ideology. It is a difficult task, made more difficult when unionists live in denial – perhaps many are ‘sneaking regarders’. Certainly, unionists do not take sectarianism seriously as a problem for unionism – they like to turn it into a 'general' problem, which is no longer their particular problem. it lets them off the hook.

"Sectarian bigots
author by Protestant publication date Tue Jul 10, 2007 22:44
This whole thread is sectarian and wouldn't see the light of day except in the likes of an RSF publication or ....indymedia! Even the provos don't print this muck anymore."

RUBBISH. All my evidence is sourced. This analysis is anti-sectarian. The above is vulgar abuse and a classic case of treating criticisms of unionist sectarianism as sectarianism. The poster lives in a Topsy Turvy world, where is black is white, or else he/she finds the truth too difficult to contemplate. It is also not anti Protestant. It is a feature of unionist sectarian paranoia to attribute criticisms of unionist sectarianism to anti-Protestantism. That is because they equate unionism with Protestantism - it is the only reason for making the point. Protestants who are not sectarian unionists treat this idea with the contempt it deserves (see article on The Reverend David Armstrong from the Church of Ireland above)

See:
http://www.indymedia.ie/article/80571
http://www.indymedia.ie/article/80012
http://www.indymedia.ie/article/77467
http://www.indymedia.ie/article/76076
http://www.indymedia.ie/article/76018
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGEUR450311999?op...G-2U3

RUC cops control unionist killers

If you are a Catholic, you are a target

The sectarian marching season is a sectarian attack season

by Protestant Tue Jul 10, 2007 22:44

This whole thread is sectarian and wouldn't see the light of day except in the likes of an RSF publication or ....indymedia! Even the provos don't print this muck anymore.

by rooster Tue Jul 10, 2007 20:28

More information fro Rooster and Mike, who appear to have disappeared. The evidence for the relationship between British Army killers and unionist killers piles on and on.
Click to read newspaper extracts - from Irish News 9 July 2007

Still here mate, just busy at work thats all! I'll explain that concept in my next article, read the newspaper extracts but found none of the proof about British Army involvement in war crimes/atrocities that you talked about, no surprise there then!
I did read that the IRA indulged in a little bit of mass murder and the Loyalists then decided to do the same but decided against it for "ethical" reasons, someone I bnever would have accused them of being!

PS do you eat Lemons Harry?

by Big Mac Tue Jul 10, 2007 15:47

We already know about Military / RUC involvement in Loyalist murders and I also believe that one day other more shocking stories of Unionist Political involvement will come to light.
I believe that there are many prominent people out there who are worried what future revelations will come out in the future.

by Ed Tue Jul 10, 2007 14:15

Harry, so what point(s) are you make?

Are you implying that all Unionists are linked to the UVF or other loyalist terror gangs?
Are you implying that the Unionist culture is based mainly on anti-Catholicism?
Are you saying that Unionists should not be allowed to have their culture or celebrate it in public?
Or do you think that Unionists should still be allowed to celebrate their culture, but need to do more to discourage loyalist thugs from using it as an excuse to vent their ignorance on the Catholic community?

Its kind of hard to get the point you’re trying to make because just you keep citing reports of attacks on Catholics, so its not really surprising that some people are taking you as anti-Unionist/anti-Protestant. I’m not saying that you are, I’m just saying you need to stop trying to score points and actually start making points and conclusions rather than just making it look like you are drumming up anti-Unionist feeling.

by Harry - The Well, Well, Well Foundation Tue Jul 10, 2007 00:09

More information fro Rooster and Mike, who appear to have disappeared. The evidence for the relationship between British Army killers and unionist killers piles on and on.

See link below to Pat Finucane Centre, who bring latest revelations to public attention.

http://www.serve.com/pfc/

Click to read newspaper extracts - from Irish News 9 July 2007

Exposure of the relationship between UVF and the British Army - click to read

Families demand that British Army admit its role in promoting sectarian killing - click to read

by Harry Mon Jul 09, 2007 00:37

Irish News May 11, 2006 Thursday

Tensions remain high in wake of murder - Clergyman extends sympathy and urges Protestant humility

Maeve Connolly

A protestant clergyman driven out of his Limavady parish because of ecumenical efforts has urged Protestant people in Ballymena to attend the funeral of murdered teenager Michael McIlveen.

The Rev David Armstrong said he and other Protestant people should be "humbled" to sit in the church alongside the McIlveen family.

"I hope Protestant people make their way to the funeral and identify themselves with goodness and with the suffering family and if there's space for them, they get into the church and attend the service and not stand outside,' he said.

"Standing outside a church at this young fellow's funeral is not good enough. I would feel humbled to be in the same church as the family."

Mr Armstrong retrained as an Anglican priest after being forced out of his Presbyterian parish more than 20 years ago by hardliners unhappy at his friendship with Limavady's Catholic community.

Things came to a head on Christmas Day 1983 when he invited Catholic priest Fr Kevin Mullan to address his Presbyterian congregation.

In turn, Mr Armstrong offered Christmas wishes at a Mass later that morning.

Two years of intimidation followed during which the lives of the minister's wife and four children were threatened, their house pelted with eggs and his church picketed.

He left the parish in 1985 and spent 15 years in England before being sent to a Church of Ireland parish in Cork.

Mr Armstrong said that since being forced out of the north he had been "looking for bright shining clouds of hope ... but when I see atrocious behaviour like this where a Catholic boy was subjected to an atrocious beating which has led to his death - it leaves me downcast".

He said although Ballymena unionist politicians condemn sectarianism and Michael's killing their past actions send out a different message.

"It suggests to irresponsible people that sort of behaviour will be tolerated," he said.

The minister said he "blushed with shame and total embarrassment" that such violence should be carried out in the name of Protestantism.

"I am at pains when I walk along the main street of my town to point out to Catholic people that I totally disassociate myself from that type of behaviour and I am delighted when they shake me by the hand.

"I, my family and our congregation are never treated like that.

"We are treated with decency and courtesy, kindness and warmth and only would wish that for Catholic people who are living in a minority in Ulster, that they would be treated with the same dignity and respect as we are."

He extended his sympathy to the McIlveen family.

"They must be destroyed and I would hope and pray this could cause people to have great reflection upon the future and reflection upon their past behaviour which often leads to behaviour like this."

by Harry Sun Jul 08, 2007 23:35

Still in denial Rooster. You can't face up to the fact of unionist sectarianism, which, by the way, is a very useful tool in the hands of unionist rulers, and in the hands of British rulers. It was put to work in British control of unionist paramilitaries. Have you read the Stevens report, or the reports into how Mark Haddock and Torrens Knight were unionist killers in the pay and in the control of RUC Special Branch and British Military Intelligence. Have you read them, Rooster? How unionist killer Ken Barrett was protected from prosecution for the killing of Pat Finnucane by RUC Special Branch, whose pay he was in, for years. Last week the DPP in the North decided not to prosecute anyone in the RUC for supplying weapons that killed Catholics (including some of the five victims in Graham's Bookies Shop on the Ormeau Road). That is what one of the articles that leads this thread is about. Have you read it? Here is another picture of the Orange Order celebrating those killers as the marched past Graham's. The attackers of Niall Ferron. Where do you think they get their influences, Rooster?

Where do young unionist killers get encouragement? What influences them?

by rooster Sun Jul 08, 2007 20:02

I accept that this is a sectarian attack, who do I think committed the crime, which by the way I would class as attempted murder, and I tell you that I don't know and by the way you don't know either so stop guessing.

by Harry Sun Jul 08, 2007 14:43

Deny reality if you must: nothing to do with you. Forget about it. Get on with your lives. Catholics will continue to be attacked by 'persons unknown'. The RUC used to call sectarian killings "motiveless murders". You are part of a long tradition.

by Sarsfield Sun Jul 08, 2007 13:37

"it hasn't even been established yet that the people who committed this crime are members of the Orange Order and already you've decided to ban the 12th because of this".
Who do you think committed the crime?

By the way the 12th should not be banned, it reminds the world every year what the Irish have to put up with for twelve months of the year. Bowler hatted fruit andf nut cases waving swords and pledging allegiance to a monarchy. Turkeys and christmas come to mind!!

by rooster Sun Jul 08, 2007 13:26

it hasn't even been established yet that the people who committed this crime are members of the Orange Order and already you've decided to ban the 12th because of this.

by Sarsfield Sun Jul 08, 2007 13:03

"I was in London the day Jill Dando was shot does that implicate me in the crime??"

I didn't know that Jill was a Catholic. Goes to show, you can learn somethimg from any old crap.

by rooster Sun Jul 08, 2007 12:30

"However, it was his alleged involvement in the murder of five members"

"again allegedly under Nixon's control, was blamed for the murders of five other Catholics"

"The atrocities are believed to have been instrumental"

"John Nixon was soon implicated"

"The police inspector and members of his RIC gang were suspected of involvement"

"implicating Nixon and his gang in the murders"

"It would later be claimed that he"

"However, despite being implicated in the McMahon and Arnon Street murders, Nixon successfully sued a number of publishing houses and newspapers, including The Irish News, for reporting the allegations."

All of these quotes were taking from Harry's article above(from the well well well foundation)
Well, well, well Harry I have noticed something very strange in your article, the fact that most of the claims start with the words, it is claimed, it is believed, he is implicated, it was later alleged and some think this implicates. So really it doesn't shed light on anything does it? it doesn't actually say anything concrete does it?
Lets face it, I claim to be the best looking bloke on this island, it has also been alleged that my sexual prowess in the sack is unrivalled in the history of the World. Furthermore, I was in London the day Jill Dando was shot does that implicate me in the crime??

by Harry Sat Jul 07, 2007 21:14

Rooster, don't you think Unionist councilors wanting to turn his gaffe into a "tourist attraction" in 2003 is recent enough - the story is from two days ago. They could have called it 'The Museum of Current Practice'. Perhaps the Orange Order will buy it and turn it into an Orange Hall. That would be appropriate.

Anyway, how old does an atrocity have to be before you dismiss its importance? Perhaps the attack on Niall Ferron is even now fading from your thoughts......

Maybe Rooster considers this 'old news' now

by Patrick Henry Sat Jul 07, 2007 16:50

I think the point being made is that from the beginning of the Northern Ireland State that Catholics were being murdered to protect Unionist rule. Right to the present day and Drumcree when Billy Wright took over Nixon's murderous job Catholics have been murdered to protect the Unionist need to trample on the human rights of Catholics.
Who used Gerrymandering to keep the Nationalist people from their democratic entitlement? Who forced Nationalists to live in overcrowded slums in conditions not fit for animals? Who encouraged Murderous Loyalists to kill Catholics long before the present 'troubles', even joining them on platforms of hate?
It was always Unionist Politicians, God fearing Christians who used the word of God to instill hatred in their own communities.

by rooster Sat Jul 07, 2007 16:02

when I first saw this I thought shit this is pretty bad stuff, then I read on and found that he died in 1949! hardly current news events, have you anything more recent, next you'll be dragging up black and tan atrocities or maybe atrocities from Cromwell or the Norman invasions!!!

by Curious Spirit Sat Jul 07, 2007 15:56

They should get the 'Most Haunted' television crew and their spiritualists over to investigate the house of the Unionist mass murderer before it is demolished. He may have killed some more Catholics there and the house could be possessed. It would be worth having some sort of religious ceremony (with both Protestant and Cathlolic clergy in attendance) to exorcise and cast out any evil murderous Unionists spirits lurking about the place. It would be fantastic tv and would show up the evil past of the Unionists.

by Harry - The Well, Well, Well Foundation Sat Jul 07, 2007 14:06

Mike, here is a further insight into the past, and the present. In those days there were more Catholic members of the RUC, as it had taken over from the old RIC, and they objected to Nixon killing catholics. Such disloyal elements were of course weeded out over time (many left in disgust of course, a few hung on in there ). Interesting that David Trimble defended him, even though Nixon made the north a bit of a 'cold house' for catholics, especially the dead bodies, I bet they were pretty cold. Nixon, of course, was merely the worst of a bad RUC bunch. Do you think this holder of an MBE (Member of the British Empire) and former Unionist MP should have his house turned into a museum, like unionists on Belfast City Council proposed in 2003? If you are still into questions, there is one for you.

The history of this period is very interesting. It was during a period when thousands of Catholics (including former members of the British Army and trade unionists and socialists who objected) were forced out of their jobs, including and mainly in the shipyards, by unionist mobs encouraged by Carson and Craig. It is well documented that Catholics were killed in large numbers and thousands were forced out of their houses. Unionists liked to console themselves that exactly the same thing was happening in the south to Protestants. But unfortunately for them, Protestants in the south rejected the wild and fanciful tales as ludicrous nonsense. Some of these tales are still told today. It is part of the 'if we are bad, so are you', argument that tries to guilt-trip Irish nationalists, who actually take the question of sectarianism far more seriously than unionists.

Irish News July 5, 2007

House of MP at centre of massacre claims for sale - The home of a controversial unionist politician who was implicated in the murders of 10 Catholics has gone on sale for nearly £3 million. Barry McCaffrey investigates the property's past

Even with an asking price of £2.8m, the home of former independent unionist MP John Nixon on Ballygomartin Road in west Belfast is already understood to have attracted the attention of several property developers. Originally from Co Cavan, Nixon lived in the grand two-storey Edwardian house overlooking Woodvale Park on the upper Shankill. He represented Woodvale first as a Belfast city councillor and later as a Stormont MP between 1929 and 1949.

However, it was his alleged involvement in the murder of five members of the McMahon family and their lodger Edward McKinney for which he will be remembered. Nixon joined the RIC in 1920 and quickly rose through its ranks to become a district inspector in Belfast.

On the night of March 23 1922 five men, four wearing police uniforms, broke into the Kinnaird Terrace home of Catholic publican Owen McMahon. The gang forced the publican, five of his sons and their lodger Edward McKinney into a room. The seven hostages were told to say their prayers before the gang shot them at point-blank range.

Brothers John and 12-year-old Michael were the only survivors.

The murders, which had been in reprisal for the IRA murder of two policemen, made headlines worldwide and 10,000 people lined the streets of Belfast for the funerals. A week later an RIC gang, again allegedly under Nixon's control, was blamed for the murders of five other Catholics in what became known as the Arnon Street Massacre.

The atrocities are believed to have been instrumental in persuading Northern Ireland prime minister James Craig and former IRA leader Michael Collins to sign an agreement in London calling for an end to the violence.

While no-one was ever charged with the murders, John Nixon was soon implicated. The police inspector and members of his RIC gang were suspected of involvement and ordered to take part in an identification parade. More than 50 Catholic RIC officers threatened to resign over Nixon's alleged role in the massacre. Craig wrote: "I feel strongly that if Nixon is to be removed it should be done at once."

Nixon was finally dismissed from the police in February 1924 after he gave a political speech at an Orange Order meeting in Belfast during which he insisted that loyalists would defend the new border from de Valera's government.

In 1924 a report compiled from the sworn affidavits of Catholic RIC men, implicating Nixon and his gang in the murders, was discussed by the Irish government. However, the report claimed that while Nixon had become an embarrassment to the unionist hierarchy his long-term career prospects remained intact.

"He held the trump cards and knew too much: therefore, he was permitted to remain in the force and a promise of future honours made to him," the report said. This took the form of an MBE given for 'valuable service' rendered by him during the trouble."

In 1929 Nixon was elected as an independent unionist MP for Woodvale.

It would later be claimed that he regularly intimidated parliamentary colleagues at Stormont by producing a black book in which he claimed to have details of their past associations with loyalist paramilitaries. However, despite being implicated in the McMahon and Arnon Street murders, Nixon successfully sued a number of publishing houses and newspapers, including The Irish News, for reporting the allegations.

Even after his death in 1949 Nixon still caused controversy.

In 2001 former Ulster Unionist leader David (now Lord) Trimble defended the former MP, insisting there was no evidence that he had been involved in the McMahon murders. In 2003 unionists on Belfast City Council attempted to have his former home at Ballygomartin Road preserved as a museum and tourist attraction. The plans were dropped after strong opposition from nationalists.

However, it is understood that the last vestige of the controversial unionist MP could soon be consigned to history as any future development is likely to involve demolishing the existing derelict house to make way for an apartment block on the one-acre site.

John Nixon, RUC, Unionist MP, MBE, and mass murderer

by Jimmy Sat Jul 07, 2007 12:14

Go easy on Mike. He is having difficulty coming to terms with unfamiliar arguments. He is struggling with his thoughts. But I bet he is secretly reading the material he is denying in public.

by Harry Sat Jul 07, 2007 12:09

Mike (you old comedian you)

I suggested you go here:

Irish History January 2005
James Connolly Re-Assessed — The Irish and European Context
—by Manus O'riordan, Head of Research, Siptu
Strokestown Famine Museum, Co. Roscommon
http://irelandsown.net/connolly19.html

Go on, have a read - it would be an education, it really would. The author of the piece is Manus O'Riordan, whose father Michael fought the Franco fascists in the Spanish Civil War. Also Manus O'Riordan campaigned for the deletion of Articles 2&3 of the southern constitution.

There is similar information on the other websites, if you have a particular aversion to that particular one. The others have information on the Jewish community in Ireland - an issue brought up earlier. Your knowledge is deficient. Now is the chance to catch up. You are not afraid of ideas that might upset your opinions, are you?

In relation to your last post though - would African Americans be considered racist if they objected to the KKK (an Orange Order inspired organization - more history) marching down their street? Try not to go for the knee-jerk reaction. Read some stuff first (the info above perhaps), before coming back with your thoughts. Try and formulate them in sentences and paragraphs, not just a string of questions. Demonstrate that you have some orginal ideas to contribute

by Mike - Judean Popular People's Front Fri Jul 06, 2007 21:49

"Somewhere, earlier in this thread I was accused of being a bigot because I said that Unionists/ Orangemen had no real culture of their own although I also said that Protestants had played a major part in the language and struggle to remove the British from this country. Would I also be a bigot if I condemned the actions of the KKK or Nazism. These organisations are also based on the hatred of others. "

So lets see now
1) You are seemingly incapable of distinguishing between Orangemen and the wider Unionist community
2) You very graciously conceed that not all Protestants are bigots but your definition for deciding which ones arent apparently equates to those who actually share your world view.
3) You accuse an entire community of having "no real culture". Who the hell are you to decide whether somebodys culture is "real" or not ?
4) You equate the entire Unionist community on this island (anything up to 1.5 milion people) with the Nazi's and the KKK despite the fact that many Unionists (unlike many of your Republican heros suck as Frank Ryan and Sean Russel) actually fought against the Nazi's.
5) You complain about "a parade of hate-filled bigots down a street/ road where they are not wanted?" surely if these people are the "hate-filled bigots" you claim they are then why tolerate them on ANY road.

Apparently it is acceptable to post hate filled bile directed towards the Unionist community (The very same people you laughably claim to be your fellow Irish brothers). If this stuff were directed at any other ethnic or cultural group not only would it not be tolerated but there is a strong possiblilty that it would lead to an investigation and prosecution under the Incitment to hatred acts.

Harry (or whatever your name is since you seem to have started using mine) I am not in the habit of frequenting fascist websites (unless maybe there is a cheap laugh to be had)

by Mike Fri Jul 06, 2007 19:50

Mike (you old comedian you)

I suggested you go here:

Irish History January 2005
James Connolly Re-Assessed — The Irish and European Context
—by Manus O'riordan, Head of Research, Siptu
Strokestown Famine Museum, Co. Roscommon
http://irelandsown.net/connolly19.html

Go on, have a read.

by Patrick Henry Fri Jul 06, 2007 19:14

Somewhere, earlier in this thread I was accused of being a bigot because I said that Unionists/ Orangemen had no real culture of their own although I also said that Protestants had played a major part in the language and struggle to remove the British from this country. Would I also be a bigot if I condemned the actions of the KKK or Nazism.
These organisations are also based on the hatred of others.
The Orange order is an organisation which fosters hatred to keep the 2 communities apart and by communities I mean working class communities. Can anyone tell me what is cultural about forcing a parade of hate-filled bigots down a street/ road where they are not wanted? I could go on about loyalist serial killers, Wright and Adair etc but I won't.
I realise that we have during our own history committed atrocities during the war, that was a terrible, terrible wrong and only served to play into the hands of the bigots on both sides.
However I feel that the Orange Order will choke on it's own bile and future generations will want nothing to do with that type of hatred, because we in Ireland are rapidly becoming multicultural.

by Mike - Judean Popular People's Front Fri Jul 06, 2007 19:04

"But to clarify: to be a member of he orange Order is to be a bigot"

"Unionists today like to draw a distinction between unionists and loyalists. There is no distinction worthy of the name. "

Well Harry was going to ask you to supply evidence for these extrordinary assertions but first I decided to take your advice and take a look at one of your websites (http://irelandsown.net/provolullaby.htm)

Lo and behold what did I come across only:

"Some day you’ll die and go to heaven
And there'll be no orange bastards there "

Charming !

by Harry Fri Jul 06, 2007 18:11

We are currently in the midst of confusion.All shape to this discussion has been lost - the way unionists like it.

But to clarify: to be a member of he orange Order is to be a bigot. It is in the rules. Not literally. The word 'bigot' is not mentioned, anymore than the injunction to be racist is in the rules of the Ku Klux Klan. If you are an overt bigot you join the OO. If you want to be an overt racist in the US, you join the KKK. The only difference is that the KKK stopped being a mass organization in the us in the 1920s. The OO is still a mass organization in the North of Ireland. Historically the KKK was a virulently anti-catholic organization. In the past few years they changed their rule to allow the RCs in. Jews and, of course, African Americans, are still a big no-no - about as likely to be welcomed into the KKK as Catholics are into the OO.

Unionist-loyalist. Unionists today like to draw a distinction between unionists and loyalists. There is no distinction worthy of the name.

Did any of you geniuses read the Links above yet, or are you too busy trying to think up inane contributions?

In the meantime, reparations for the 'Glorious Twelfth' continue.

by Sarsfield Fri Jul 06, 2007 17:49

I asked Harry,
"Are the heroes that beat up the 15 yr old with a golf club,
1) orangemen
2) Protestants
3) both
or
4) In need of psychiatric care
Take your time now, don't rush the answer."

Rooster replied,
"Really, you think they are in the Orange Order? if your so sure of this tell us all which Lodge they belong to????? Take your time now, no need to rush the answer!!!"

Not only do you appear to not know your own name, you are having problems with your mother tongue. I never claimed that they were anything, I was posing the question.
You then suggest,
"For the record I reckon that they are Protestants (which doesn't automatically make them Orangemen) and are more in need of prison sentences than psychiatric help"
Wrong, prison would not help these poor bastards. They are in need of long term care as it is obvious that they have endured prolonged exposure to hate and bigotry, probably at the hands of their god fearing relatives.

by rooster Fri Jul 06, 2007 17:20

and I was in Ireland for Easter, the idea of not having any alcohol on Good Friday didn't go down well with my South African mates, they thought it was quite old fashioned and started to miss their times North of the border!
One of them decided he would go to the Vatican next Good Friday and would be deliberatley as drunk as possible as a protest.

by matt Fri Jul 06, 2007 16:29

Rooster, who are you - the Pope?
Maybe you will visit Ireland next?

by rooster Fri Jul 06, 2007 15:51

Sectarianism is a particularly unionist problem - the evidence is there (and here).

OK, JohnD you saw you have the evidence, produce it then, well?

by rooster Fri Jul 06, 2007 15:49

But, in the spirit of better community relations, the attackers were unionists. I don't know if

a quick question, how do you know that the attackers were unionist? don't you think Loyalist would have been a better description? Your either very ignorant or you know the attackers personally, which is it?

by rooster Fri Jul 06, 2007 15:46

"Rooster, travel broadens the mind - try to get out more. You will soon learn that NI is hamstrung by its inherent hatred and bigotry."

cheers mate, but I currently live in Devon and have been travelling constantly during the past ten years, in fact in the last 2 years I have travelled through Slovenia, South Africa, Nepal and Iraq to name but a few countries. And yes, I have noticed hate and bigotry in almost every country which was my original point, these things are not confined or endemic in anyone society.

by Mike - Judean Popular People's Front Fri Jul 06, 2007 14:44

Harry -
Of course All orangemen are Protestants that in itself doesn’t make it a sectarian outfit. Does the lack of Prods in -say the Legion of Mary make it a sectarian organisation ? Granted dressing up "like English bank managers from 1963, carrying swords and unwieldy banners...." makes them look a bit odd but since when has that been a crime ?

And nobody is denying that some Protestants are nationalists, republicans or whatever your having yourself but a lot of people seem to be in denial about the reality that many Roman Catholics support the Union.

What I am disputing is the implication that several posters here are making
Unionists = bad
Nationalists= all sweetness and light
Solely on the basis that some Unionists did bad things.

Are you seriously trying to suggest that there has never been a single racial or sectarian attack on this island in which the perputrator(s) were from the Nationalist community ?

by Jimmy Fri Jul 06, 2007 14:05

"Niether has the "Head in the sand" view that sectarianism is a one sided problem which the majority of the contributors seem to think."

Sectarianism is a particularly unionist problem - the evidence is there (and here). The head in the sand attitude is from those who will not face up to the fact (or facts). The failure to tackle this particularly unionist problem is manifested in the suggestion that it is everyone's problem, and therefore no one's, and certainly not unionism's. It is a cop out.

by John D Fri Jul 06, 2007 12:44

For your information: I don't support the orange order, I don't attend view on TV or particulary support orange marches, and I don't support violence where ever it comes from.
My original point that seemed to "Rattle cages" was that this argument is identicle to the one posted last year. While I do concede that the sectarianism hasn't reduced on the orange order side. Niether has the "Head in the sand" view that sectarianism is a one sided problem which the majority of the contributors seem to think.

by Harry Fri Jul 06, 2007 12:18

Unionists don't do discussion. They do argumentative questions, lots of them, and then get all uptight and assertive at the same time when you don't follow their irrelevant line of thought.

But, in the spirit of better community relations, the attackers were unionists. I don't know if they were in the Orange Order, because they have not been caught yet (on past experience they probably will not be). But I bet they are big supporters of King Billy and think they are still doing his work. I bet Rooster and his pals will witter away on this point, in order to avoid dealing with the central problem of unionism, its active promotion of sectarianism, which results in dead and seriously injured nationalists (as well as grown men dressed up like English bank managers from 1963, carrying swords and unwieldy banners, wearing strange Orange regalia, and strutting down the street, in almost endless sumer procession - all the while thinking themselves very Protestant and very British). Funny, sad and tragic at the same time. Give it up lads.

by matt Fri Jul 06, 2007 12:09

"Pats only solution to the problem of uionism is for them to drop everything that they identify with and for them to move into thatched cottages adopt catholicism and play tweedly dee music all day by the turf fire!"

Rooster is suffering from a typical OO disease. The belief that the Ireland of the thirties still exists south of the border. Rooster, travel broadens the mind - try to get out more. You will soon learn that NI is hamstrung by its inherent hatred and bigotry. OO members are cutting off their own noses to the tune of billions each year.

by Home to roost Fri Jul 06, 2007 11:57

"Pats only solution to the problem of uionism is for them to drop everything that they identify with and for them to move into thatched cottages adopt catholicism and play tweedly dee music all day by the turf fire!"

What, like they do in the Hebrides and Western Scotland and other regions of Scotia?

by rooster Fri Jul 06, 2007 11:11

I think the fact that the Irish Nationalist has a real culture and language and not a manufactured culture based on the hatred of catholics, with a language that is in fact Scottish slang shows the real problem with Orange hate fests.
They have no culture, no real identity while we have.

And here we have the typical response of the sectarian bigot, to dehumanise the object of their hate and so to make any attacks perfectly acceptable. Pats only solution to the problem of uionism is for them to drop everything that they identify with and for them to move into thatched cottages adopt catholicism and play tweedly dee music all day by the turf fire!
Face it bro, we are different, the sooner you accept that the easier living on this island will be, its nice to see though that you've adopted the Queens English.

by rooster Fri Jul 06, 2007 10:56

Are the heroes that beat up the 15 yr old with a golf club,
1) orangemen
2) Protestants
3) both
or
4) In need of psychiatric care
Take your time now, don't rush the answer.

Really, you think they are in the Orange Order? if your so sure of this tell us all which Lodge they belong to????? Take your time now, no need to rush the answer!!!

For the record I reckon that they are Protestants (which doesn't automatically make them Orangemen) and are more in need of prison sentences than psychiatric help.

by Harry Fri Jul 06, 2007 10:25

Mike,

All orangemen are unionists and Protestants - all Protestants are not unionists (many are nationalists or even republicans) - the association of the Protestant religion and Britishness is an invention of unionism. Do I have to draw you a picture, actually I don't - take a look at the picture of Ian Paisley here.

The Orange Order is the biggest mass political organisation on this island. The association of unionism, Protestantism and (more to the point) Britishness is the basis for setting up and running the northern state. Every year sectarian attacks on nationalists, which are never far below the surface, become more frequent. This is because Orange Order marches (thousands of them over a few months) are an exercise in sectarian coat-trailing, in which unionist paramilitary organizations play a prominent and enthusiastic part. They insist it is part of their 'culture' and also insist on marching where their presence is unwelcome (places where the victims of the supporters of orangeism live). All this prejudice rubs of on their supporters. This is not rocket science, Mike (and Sarsfield - I suppose the assertion that I think unionists eat babies is an attempt at a joke, well done)

However, the eating babies thing was a feature of allied propaganda against Germany in WWI, that and killing them or just chopping off their hands - all this in defence of "gallant" little imperialist Belgium, which cut off hundreds of thousands of hands in the Congo (as exposed by Roger Casement).

I get the impression the the critics here really don't know what they are talking about. If it would be helpful, here is some information on Jewish history in Ireland (I did not bring this up, but I am happy to pursue it). I did not say that one Jew was driven from the north during WWI (former unionist Lord Mayor, Otto Jaffe). It was more than that. I feel that, as I say, the critics are simply and it seems happily ignorant. However, if they can face being upset with some information, try this for a start:

GAA founder no Blooming anti-semite - Part 1
Reflections by Manus O’Riordan on some aspects of Irish Jewish history in the age of Joyce
http://www.anfearrua.com/story.asp?id=2126

GAA founder no Blooming anti-semite - Part 2
Manus O'Riordan continues his reflections on some aspects of Irish Jewish history in the age of Joyce
http://www.anfearrua.com/story.asp?id=2127

See, also by O'Riordan (for more on the treatment of Irish Jews as 'Germans' in WWI by unionists an Redmondites):
The justification of James Connolly
http://www.indymedia.ie/article/76008

Also (similar):
Irish History January 2005
James Connolly Re-Assessed — The Irish and European Context
—by Manus O'riordan, Head of Research, Siptu
Strokestown Famine Museum, Co. Roscommon
http://irelandsown.net/connolly19.html

Hope this helps, Mike

by Sarsfield Fri Jul 06, 2007 07:56

Harry,

Are the heroes that beat up the 15 yr old with a golf club,
1) orangemen
2) Protestants
3) both
or
4) In need of psychiatric care

Take your time now, don't rush the answer.

by Mike Fri Jul 06, 2007 07:40

Obviously Harry you don’t know many (any?) Unionists since you seem to think

All Unionists are Protestants
All Unionists are Orangemen
All Unionists support the DUF/UVF/BNP/The Wicked Witch of the East
All Unionists eat babies (except on Sunday).

As for century old horror stories about a Jew being run out of Belfast terrible stuff but I seem to recall something about a bit of unpleasantness a few years earlier involving virtually the entire Jewish population of the notorious Orange heartland of (ahem) Limerick !

by Harry Thu Jul 05, 2007 22:43

"So Harry you reckon ALL unionists think this ?
Even Unionists who are Jewish, Agnostic, Hindu, Atheist, Muslim or even Roman Catholic ?"

Hi Mike, fancy addressing yourself to the actuality of the sectarianism that accompanies Orange marches.

Don't know how many Jewish unionists there are now, There were one or two up to the First World War. But, during the war unionists, at the highest level, thought Jews were Germans (I kid you not) . They drove out of Ulster the former Unionist Lord Mayor, Otto Jaffe (yes, there was one) - this is all true, Mike. Others went south and rebuilt their lives in the Free State. Jews played a prominent role in the Irish War of Independence as republican supporters and as members of the IRA - the Briscoes being the best known. One of them went on to be Lord mayor of Dublin. Such are the ironies of history.

As for Muslims, the unionists burned their boats there as well I am afraid. When Muslims wanted to build a Mosque in Craigavon a few years ago, Unionist councilors to a man (think they were all men - another unionist problem) objected. A Councilor Crowe (UUP) thought it might attract supporters of Osama Bin Laden, and he was concerned for the safety of the borough's high rise buildings from commandeered aircraft. A DUP councilor thought there might be too much "wailing" emanating from the Mosque, and this might upset the locals. It might interfere with Orange band practice or something.

You forgot to mention the Chinese and other minorities (I dunno, maybe some of them were Hindus), Mike. They got a special UVF/BNP welcome to the effect that they should clear out because they were not white, British or Protestant. Got quite a bit of encouragement in the form of racial attacks too. The UVF were good a that, as they had been practicing on Catholics for years.

Now where were we? Oh yes atheists. Atheists? In the DUP? People who believe in evolution (of any kind)? No thanks.

What was that last one, Catholics. Roman Catholics. Dum de dee. Ever read the rules of the Orange Order, Mike? Does the name Niall Ferrin mean anything to you? Can we stop here please?

by Mike Thu Jul 05, 2007 22:10

"Protestants aren't sectarian, unionists are (because they think protestantism and unionism are the same thing)."

So Harry you reckon ALL unionists think this ?

Even Unionists who are Jewish, Agnostic, Hindu, Atheist, Muslim or even Roman Catholic ?

Seems like its yourself and Patrick ("unionists have no culture") who are labouring under the very delusions you attribute to those horrible sectarian Unionist bigots (Pot/Kettle anyone ??)

by Patrick Henry Thu Jul 05, 2007 19:47

I think the fact that the Irish Nationalist has a real culture and language and not a manufactured culture based on the hatred of catholics, with a language that is in fact Scottish slang shows the real problem with Orange hate fests.
They have no culture, no real identity while we have.
Loyalists have even gone as far as stealing the emblem of the O'Neills, the Red Hand, for their own. Lets not forget that the O'Neills inflicted one of the greatest defeats on the British at the Battle of Benburb and now the Loyalists have hijacked the emblem of the most Irish clanns as their own.
We proudly acknowledge the part played by many Protestants in the history of Irish struggle and accept that not all protestants are hate filled bigots. Sure protestants have even been to the forefront of the revival of the Irish Language. These are Protestants with no identity problem.

by Victor Arbuckle Thu Jul 05, 2007 17:10

Wow, that's a really brilliant argument John D - outstanding contribution, first rate. Scanning over your posts I detect precisely 1) no arguments 2) no facts cited whatsoever 3) no attempt to rebut anything said by the people you criticise. Just a load of hot air and patting yourself on the back for "rattling cages" - what on earth is the point you think you've made?

Every point that was made by Harry and James about the record of the Orange Order stands, because you haven't tried to rebut anything, and because every single point is true and can be backed up with evidence. The contributions from you and Rooster are the most childish form of whatabouttery - someone criticises the bigotry of the Orange Order, you respond by saying "ooooh, so you're saying no Catholic has ever had any prejudice ever?" A nonsensical non sequiter which merely suggests that you don't like the thought of any light being shone on the OO's record.

by John D Thu Jul 05, 2007 16:54

Amazing how a few little words seemed to have "Rattled your cages" Thanks for unwittingly drawing attention to the fact that the "Truth must really hurt"
James, I hope "Knocking" up that "Novel" of a response made you feel better, just remember, keep telling yourself the same thing and it becomes true, just keep telling yourself the same thing and it becomes true etc etc.
Rooster, keep up the good work mate, nice to see you're still participating.

by starkadder Thu Jul 05, 2007 13:14

The Orange Order are simply a bunch of Ultra-Protestant, Ultra-British reactionaries. They have no solution to problems facing ordinary Protestants in the North (See Eamonn McCann's Dear God:The Price of Religion in Ireland for further information). I bet the average "British" person in London, Manchester, Cardiff or Edinburgh thinks they're ridiculous.

by Harry Thu Jul 05, 2007 12:19

"that sectarianism is an exclusive part of unionism and of course does not even exist in any form in nationalism and republicanism."

No one said that Mr Rooster. Though yours is a typical response to a specific account of unionist sectarianism: change the subject, subtly. And of course it is easy to guilt trip nationalists on this point, because they take the question more seriously than unionists, who generally don't see it as a problem at all. Unionists don't think about it - they just do it. No nonsense about wishy washy thinking.

by rooster Thu Jul 05, 2007 12:09

that sectarianism is an exclusive part of unionism and of course does not even exist in any form in nationalism and republicanism.

Reminds me of a verse from the bible, something about pointing out a speck in your neighbours eye while there is a huge plank in your own!

by Pat from Dublin - none Thu Jul 05, 2007 00:20 none none

Hey Ed, no one said anything about bashing brits or unionist, that idea came out of your own head.
A discussion is taking place about sectarian attacks that are connected to the Glorious Twelfth.
The latest news is that a teenager has had his head smashed in with a golf club.
You are implying that by talking about it, it is feeding the hate fest, should we just ignore it ?
Remember the adage, ' Evil triumphs because good men stand by '

As for the coin, it obvious who your pitching for.
I'd say if you where tossing the coin, you'd make sure it lands with the queen head up.

by Harry Wed Jul 04, 2007 23:33

Protestants aren't sectarian, unionists are (because they think protestantism and unionism are the same thing).

by Mike Wed Jul 04, 2007 23:01

"If the RC Church disappeared in the morning the Orange Order would lose its reason for existence."

Yes I suppose that would be another benefit

by James Wed Jul 04, 2007 19:59

Maybe John D is thinking about this letter that I wrote to the Irish News last year, nearly 12 months ago. If he had seen it then, would John D have said "Yawn, seen it all before"? Funnily enough (as if anything about the OO is 'funny') it ties in with the UDA attack on Graham's betting shop and the celebration of one of the killers at an Orange Order parade. Will Joe Bratty be 'celebrated' with another 'banerette' this year?

Irish News July 24, 2006

Orangeism offers such a warm, friendly image

Councillor William Humphreys must have had his tongue firmly in cheek, using words like 'accommodation' and 'shared space' in relation to 'Orangefest'.

This is the culmination of the frenzy of celebration of a spurious 'British way of life' which commences when buds appear at Easter and wears out shoe leather until the leaves begin to fall in the autumn of each year.

Two thousand, five hundred marches, parades, feeder parades, band practices and bonfires pollute the highways and byways of the north in a display of Protestant 'Britishness' that most Britons who encounter it find insulting, repulsive and/or embarrassing.

And why shouldn't they when, as The Irish News reported (July 19), "a banner commemorating UDA leader Joe Bratty was carried through Belfast city centre last Wednesday" in an Orange parade.

"In April 1994 Bratty was questioned about the murder of mother-of-two Theresa Clinton ... (who) was killed after UDA gunmen threw a concrete block through the window of her Balfour Avenue home and opened fire with automatic rifles hitting her 16 times.

"Bratty had also been implicated in the UDA gun attack on Sean Graham's Bookmakers on the Ormeau Road in February 1992 which left five people dead."

That is twice that the Orange Order has celebrated the Ormeau Road killer.

First of all in 1992 when Orangemen passing that spot held five fingers aloft in celebration of the deed.

Now in 2006 Orange Order supporters hold aloft and celebrate Bratty's enduring memory - the UVF sectarian killer had his image similarly celebrated in the past.

The Orange Order concocted a response that this was not an Orange banner but an unofficial 'bannerette'.

The same cynicism asserts that the 'KAI' adorning Orange drums refers not to 'Kill all Irish' but to an obscure Norwegian who played for Glasgow Rangers in the 1960s.

Quite possibly, the old favourite, 'KAT' or 'Kill all Taigs', was dropped because it could not be made to fit the initials of any living or dead Norwegian footballers.

When Councillor Humphrey associates his order with tolerance, is it tolerance of unionist paramilitary membership to which he is referring?

The grand master of the Orange Order in England, Ron Bather, said recently that "membership of a paramilitary organisation may not break the laws of the institution" (The Irish News, July 6 2006).

Bather was blathering about two members - Roy Barwise, sentenced to four and a half years for UVF membership and possession of weapons and John Irwin jailed for two and a half years for membership.

Both were also members of the 'Liverpool Volunteers Flute Band', one of the many 'musical' appendages to 'Orangefest' parades who play sectarian tunes and engage in loud and determined drumming when within earshot of Roman Catholics or their churches - these are the people this Protestant supremacist organisation cannot 'accommodate'.

As for Mr Humphrey's complaint about being associated with the Ku Klux Klan, what is his problem?

He is taking Orange exclusivity too far.

The KKK is a product of unionist Protestantism on US soil (it flourished for much of the 20th century as an anti-Catholic organisation in parts of the US with neither Jew nor black person to scapegoat) and British fascists love the Orange Order.

The annual Orangefest is the kind of thing fascists and racists like.

The Orange Order can share lots of space and can accommodate their sense of 'Britishness' (or brutishness) with far more success than on the Ormeau Road (or any road where residents have a problem with their slaughter being celebrated openly).

JAMES REILLY

by Harry Wed Jul 04, 2007 17:19

Right John D - if this appeared last year where did it appear? Maybe it was beause there was a spate of sectarian attacks last year as well, and some one made similar points in opposition to them. Have you a problem with drawing attention to sectarian attacks?

Yes, with the intensification of the 'marching season' comes the annual bout of attacks on Catholics. John D has drawn unwitting attention to that fact. Well done John D. Have you any proposals for making unionists stop, or is that too boring to think about?

by Matt Wed Jul 04, 2007 10:58

If the RC Church disappeared in the morning the Orange Order would lose its reason for existence.
It thrives on a persecution complex. Ignore it , laugh at it but don't respect it whilst it feeds hatred, bigotry and persecution. To describe the OO as 'christian' is a misuse of the word..
I respect protestants' right to celebrate and express their culture but when such expression impinges on the rights of others it becomes a negative in society.

by John D Wed Jul 04, 2007 10:01

I remember this exact article last year and most of the comments are the same too. ( More effort for the inevitable article next year please) Though I must admit it's maybe not a bad idea to have parades in England to give them the chance to commemorate all the men, women, and children blown up by the fine upstanding Irish republicans who allways behave so it would appear impeccably.

by Harry Wed Jul 04, 2007 08:43

"drum up a hate fest" Me?

I don't need to, nor do I want to, it is up and running on a yearly basis and is called Orange Order marches - up to 2,500 every year between Easter and late August. All in the name of feeling Protestant and British at the same time. It is pure reactionary sectarianism, of a kind that would be derided and laughed out of existence if Roman Catholics tried it on a mass scale.

Some deluded people think that if you ignore the attacks on nationalists, keep your head down on their behalf, the unionists might stop. They even suggest that if you mention them at all in the public prints, it will make the attackers 'upset', and they will do more. In fact, experience has shown that only thing that stops them is relentless publicity. Unionist politicians typically ignore these attacks, unless directly confronted about them by the media. So, the media should get to it, big time.

Ed, you have it wrong.

Five Nationalists killed in Graham's bookies shop on Ormeau Road Belfast by weapons supplied by RUC - how the Orange Order celebrated the feat the last time they were allowed to march down down that road

by Civilian Wed Jul 04, 2007 08:13

"Yeah! Lets bash the unionists and the brits! After all, they're the only ones who have ignorant morons in their ranks.
Just what we need - another embittered person trying to drum up a hate fest.
Different sides - same coin."

Come on Ed, this annual hate fest is organised and staged by Unionists. The people who beat the young lad are not normal, they need help. It has always been a source of wonderment that the British establishment allow this to continue in their name.

by Ed Wed Jul 04, 2007 01:56

Yeah! Lets bash the unionists and the brits! After all, they're the only ones who have ignorant morons in their ranks.
Just what we need - another embittered person trying to drum up a hate fest.
Different sides - same coin.

by Tommie Wed Jul 04, 2007 00:54

It is that 'croppy lie down' time of year. I wonder will the southern media pick up on it at all.

Not a face you will see much of down south - remember the name

Dying for Britain, for the Crown, for its religion and laws

by Jimmy Wed Jul 04, 2007 00:25

McKay's Irish News article above mentions the killing of Bernadette Martin. That was one of the loyalist killings that made Roy Greenslade think there was a 'hierarchy of death' in the North.

His 'Damien Walsh Lecture' here:

http://www.victimsandsurvivorstrust.com/DWG/rg_mem_lect...e.htm

Also:

http://www.victimsandsurvivorstrust.com/TellingTheirSto...y.htm

And:

http://www.victimsandsurvivorstrust.com/TellingTheirSto...e.htm