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Comments (6 of 6)
Jump To Comment: 1 2 3 4 5 6Social experiment? Sounds very Utopian socialist to me. Like Saint-Simon and Fourier. These things are flawed because they take the what is desired and try to apply it to the world we live in. The object is to take the world we live in and move it towards what is desired. This can only be achieved through class struggle.
BTW: Andrew I have not conveniently forgotten about our little debate, I am just giving the material the attention it deserves. (Just in case you were wondering).
Hi Mark,
in case its unclear the mail you are replying to was not posted by me (I always use my name or the name of the organisation I'm posting for).
I presume the discussion you refer to is the Russian revolution one? Is there is already a lot of discussion on this between some Irish anarchists and a member of Socialist Alternative at the link below you might find useful
The original posting seems a little vague and aspirational, the hazy outline of a percieved potential. It's the response which is truly telling: great leaders have been telling us "The Answer" for 200 years and more, why the hell do some people have to keep looking for another way to do things.
It's probably a very good thing there weren't too many "Socialists" about when Marx, Engels et al were forming their ideas. Anyone ever notice how all these dogmas were groundbreaking(revolutionary ;-) in their day?
If you payed any attention to what I wrote you would see that all I said was that theory should be the result of struggle and everyday practice, not something that sounds like a good idea but has no basis in reality. Just because this was the methodology of Marx and Engels doesn't mean that it is not a good one. The idea that a new methodology is needed for the sake of one is ludicrous. If its not broke don't try and fix it eh? But listen theres a huge difference between a dogmatic theory and a methodology and its a failure to grasp this which leads to a lot of hostility towards Socialist organisations.
Interestingly enough a psychology study that looks at the CWI as a cult (written by an ex member) has this to say about the deification of the dead implicit above.
"5. Leader figures, alive or dead, are deified. In the first place, this adulation tends to center on Marx, Lenin, Trotsky, Mao, or other significant historical figures. It also increasingly transfers to existing leaders, who represent themselves as defending the historical continuity of the "great" ideas of Marxist leaders. In effect, the new leaders are depicted, in their unbending devotion to the founders? ideals, as the reincarnation of Marx, Trotsky, or whomever. There is a tendency to settle arguments by referring constantly to the sayings of the wise leaders (past or present), rather than by developing an independent analysis. Even banal observations are usually buttressed by the use of supporting quotations from sanctified sources."
Full paper is at the link at the bottom, I bring this up to illustrate how odd the idea that the ideas of 'Marx and Engels' are not in need of repair looks from the outside of Marxism-Leninism.
The first reply said:
"The object is to take the world we live in and move it towards what is desired. This can only be achieved through class struggle."
It does not mention in any way what it is that is "desired".
Anarchists (mostly) desire a non-hierarchical society. Discussion of possibly modalities and versions of non-hierarchical control is a concrete step towards realising this goal.
Even by the socialist argument this is a relevant endeavour. By the anarchist argument it is an essential process.