Sinn Fein call for "Weekend Only" Car Insurance.

by ? Thu Aug 07, 2003 16:48

Some of your lads?
Weekend insurance.......

by iosaf Thu Aug 07, 2003 18:58

creative and imaginative thinking there yes.
At a short stroke you would ensured that most drivers on the road monday to friday would be driving without insurance, and cut the insurance companies capital base by close to 30%.

Well done Sinn Fein you really are joining the looney left after all.

a creative and imaginative solution that is both anti-capitalist and in the interest of the working class.

Perhaps the voters/cumann members in Finglas could opt for weekend insurance on the roads?

And I mean that sincerely.

by Dexters Thu Aug 07, 2003 20:28

I like this, good for everyone - commuters, consumers, the economy, environment, - except the parasitic insurance corporations. For policing it I can think of a few ways; electronically, different colour insurance disks, different colour numberplate. Not too sure if it should apply to first time drivers or those under, say 23 years old. Otherwise these kind of ideas coupled with the luas and more QBC's might help in reducing the stranglehold that traffic has on our city.

by Sean Heffernan -SP Fri Aug 08, 2003 00:08

Makes me sick to read articles like that! I am a member of the co-ordinating committee of MIJAG (The Motor Insurance Action Group) - Go on 'Republican' tell me EXACTLY what actual work Sinn Fein have done on this issue? Apart from one of their now TD's turning up at a rally, which had as it's main aim the denouncing the rip-off of younger drivers, painstakingly organised well beforehand by MIJAG, and having two photo ops outside Quinn Directs offices on O'Connell Street, I do not remember SF (Or Ogra) activlely doing ONE thing on that issue! Though MIJAG is an independent campaign with no political allegiance, it was nonetheless founded by two members of the Socialist Party, Mick murphy (Puplic Rep for Dublin South West), and Lisa Maher (Public Rep for Dublin South). t has grown in stature and now has many non-aligned people at the head of the organisation. SP members have been more than willing, in their areas, to help out MIJAG members, but this is purely done on a non-party basis, with comrades helping out in their own time, on a personal level.

So come on, tell me EXACTLY what active work Sinn Fein have done on this issue then.....

It's a pity Mr. Rabbitte did not tackle the issue either when he was in Harney's position during the term of the 'Rainbow Government'

by Chekov Fri Aug 08, 2003 00:17

Apart from picking a ludicrous name, of course. This is a serious question, by the way, I really don't know much about MIJAG. I didn't even realise that it was formed by the SP, and I must say I can't understand why the SP chose such an issue to put their scarce resources into. Nor can I understand the name. I first thought it was an unfortunate mistake, but then I realised that there isn't even a word starting with 'J' in it. So it seems to have been consciously chosen to refer to my jaguar - that well known symbol of the working class. Any clues as to what yez were thinking?

by Phuq Hedd Fri Aug 08, 2003 00:37

has a word with a "J" in it doesn't it?

by Chekov Fri Aug 08, 2003 01:29

In the SP comment above, it is called "Motor Insurance Action Group", but that's probably just a typo. Still, the name is very unfortunate at best.

by Anon 1534 Fri Aug 08, 2003 01:41

Woah there Sean, talk about sour grapes. Do you now mean that only the SP and/or MIJAG are "allowed" comment on motor insurance. That MIJAG/SP "owns" the issue. Aside from promoting Mick Murphy I am aware of the MIJAG campaign having contributed nothing to ensuring lower insurance premiums (premia?). Fact remains that ALL political parties have been banging on about reducing insurance costs in the state and the cost of all types of insurance be it for a 1.1 litre car or a 11 thousand square foot factory is still nuts.

Sean Wrote -
"Though MIJAG is an independent campaign with no political allegiance, it was nonetheless founded by two members of the Socialist Party, Mick murphy (Puplic Rep for Dublin South West), and Lisa Maher" - Thats sentence just about sums up the SPs self dillusion!

by Phuq Hedd Fri Aug 08, 2003 09:30

I was just being a pedant: FYI it would seem that MIJAG's main successes are in the field of obtaining cheaper insurance for young Audi A3 driving Aer Lingus pilots. After this happens there will apparently be public transport.

They are very upset that these people are being discriminated against. See link:

by Sean Heffernan SP Fri Aug 08, 2003 10:24

All I am asking is that groups who claim to be doing a lot of work to help younger drivers in their campaighn to end the rip off, actually DO some work, instead of solely banging out press releases. I welcome ANYONE, no matter what theur political Hue, who is willing to help on this issue. The Tipperary Unemployed action group, who has Seamus Healy TD, as one of it's more prominent members, has been very ective in organising a branch of MIJAG in Tipperary.

by Ray Fri Aug 08, 2003 10:34

The original article didn't claim that SF have been leading a campaign on the issue, have been working on it for years, or even that one of their TDs was at a rally. All it did was propose a partial solution to rising car insurance.
Are only MIJAG members allowed do that? Are you saying Killian Forde shouldn't say anything until he joins your campaign?

by Justin Moran - Sinn Féin Fri Aug 08, 2003 11:47 maigh_nuad at yahoo dot com

Unaware as we were of our need to clear statements, policy documents and ideas through MIJAG we can only apologise for the rudeness. I would also like clarification about whether ALL Sinn Féin documents and ideas need to be cleared through the Socialist Party leadership and if so, could we be told who they are (Actually, would be nice if someone could tell me that anyway. Sinn Fein's Ard Comhairle and leadership figures are publically available, I have no idea who's running what in the SP, or the SWP for that matter)

As for what SF has done on the matter, I have neither desire, nor inclination to prepare an exhaustive list but in terms of our TDs, we have repeatedly raised the issue in Leinster House through parliamentary questions and during debates on the issue. Interestingly, when the issue of motor insurance arose for debate in Leinster House, Joe Higgins TD chose not to speak on it. I do not do this to question Joe's commitment to the issue, merely to make the point that it would be very easy for malevolent people to make the point that since the SP chose not to speak on the issue they have no interest in it. I know it's not true, but others could say it.

I know Ogra have picketted Motor Insurance companies, in one case doing so naked as 'Car Insurance rips the pants off young people' and I'll die happy if I don't see another load of naked Shinners wandering through the streets :)

Ogra have also issued at least one leaflet on the subject and it was a significant part of Ográ's 2002 Election Manifesto.

Like others, I'm not sure what MIJAG does. Unlike say the anti-Bin Tax campaigns, the disability campaigns, the education campaigns and so on, they've never written to TDs or lobbied them. We did as a matter of courtesy email material to them relating to Dail questions but they chose not to put any of our stuff on their website and so we stopped sending the material. Why they did this, I don't know. Other than that, nothing, not a thing. I'd also be curious why MIJAG didn't picket or protest or in some way mark the Dail debate on motor insurance, which specifically centred around car insurance for young drivers.

I am vaguely aware that MIJAG holds public meetings but I can't remember the last one I saw advertised or heard of, though I do remember one attended by a comrade of mine where Mick Murphy used it to attack politicians in a most vehement manner until someone pointed out that he was a General Election candidate and therefore was he not a politician himself. Mick replied, if memory serves, that he is an activist, not a politician, and that's different. If you say so Mick.

Apologies btw to people who think this is a bit TD/Dail centred, it's where I work out of and the work we do here is the work I know best. I am sure other Sinn Fein areas are doing work on the issue as well.

by Denis Fri Aug 08, 2003 12:38

Justin for Justice!

by Killian Forde - Sinn Fein Fri Aug 08, 2003 16:37

Sean, how are you, well I hope, look I was just about to do a statement to the Northside People about the state of the grass verges of the eastern side of the Grange Road in Donaghmede. Is that ok with you and all in SP?

Naturally I await your clearance.

Yours grovellingly,

Killian

by hs - sp Fri Aug 08, 2003 17:10

Sean calm down a little there!!! I don't think we have the monopoly on complaining about rip off insurance prices. And it's an excellent idea. Cheap week-end insurance could appeal to alot of people who like to go on day trips etc with their cars. It would be easy to police with window stickers, not much difference to now.

by garvin Fri Aug 08, 2003 17:37

I would agree with hs, people do need to clam down. Sean, SF are a right wing capitalist party they will be exposed I am sure in time. DOn't be worrying about them.

I would say that this proposal by SF is dodging the central question. Their proposal would bring about cheaper insurance but the real reason insurance is unaffordable is the massive profits being creamed off by the insurance industry. SO if SF are to make a real demand they should be calling for the nationalisation of the whole car insurance industry under democratic workers control. But will they ever do this? I think not..

by John Meehan Fri Aug 08, 2003 17:37

Interesting thread - anyone still under the impression MIJAG is an independent campaign?

Ever since I picked up a general election leaflet in Cork, saying MIJAG endorsed the SP candidate Mick Barry, I've taken it for granted that MIJAG is an SP glove puppet.

All the comments by SP members on this thread reinforce that impression. The SF people have it right on this occasion -

PS

since Sinn Féin is not the IRA, we know that Killian does not have to get his statements approved by completely unrelated army councils!

by Joe Momma Fri Aug 08, 2003 18:31

This is not a terrible idea, but as somebody points out above it doesn't address the fact that insurance companies are making stacks of cash on inflated premiums. Nationalising the industry, or at least only allowing mutual or member-owned insurers would be a more positive step: at the very least this threat should be held over the insurance companies.

The other issue to be addressed is that car ownership can present environmental and social problems even if the car is only used at the weekend. In areas well served by public transport or close enough to centres of employment to allow commuting by foot or bicycle, residential streets are overrun by parked cars all week. Some of the problems associated with this are:
- regulation of shared parking space
- safety for children playing on the road
- access for street cleaning

One answer to this is to create off-street parking, either in driveways, or underground in apartment complexes. Again, there are environmental and social problems associated with this, i.e.
- Residential streets based around driveways with parking for multiple cars result in lower densities and thus more dependency on car travel.
- Parking obviously puts pressure on green space.
- Unregulated demand for parking leads to inflated costs for parking spaces.
- Obviously it's often simply not possible to provide off-street parking in existing built-up areas.

None of this is to say that the motor insurance rip-off shouldn't be tackled, as the private car is a necessary evil for a great many people, even those living in cities. However, let's not forget that it is an evil, and car dependency must be broken down.

One approach I favour is car clubs. Many people feel they need a car, but maybe for only one or two trips per week. Usually they feel they have no choice but to buy a car, and endure the inflated insurance premiums. Car clubs would give people access to shared cars in their area, reducing the pressure created by parking, and probably encouraging people to cut down on unnecessary journeys. Of course, this could only work within a reasonable insurance scenario, so maybe it's still a pipe dream.

by hs - sp Fri Aug 08, 2003 18:38

No I think the shinners are on to a good one here it should be supported. Its an excellent idea, it won't solve all the problems but it'll make them a little less bad. It should be backed. Keep more cars off the streets during the week too. "transitional motor insurance":)

by Sean Heffernan -SP Fri Aug 08, 2003 22:45

What I would like to see is the following:

1. Insurance would become a state issue, with the whole area of insurance being looked after by the state. The main aim of this would be to provide as best insurance cover as is possible to all citizens of the state who wish to avil of it, but at a much more competitive rate than before, as there would be no shareholders etc to look after. Therefore there would be no private run insurance firms in the state anymore.

2. Like they have in Denmark, the Government must IMMEDIATELY bring in an 'innocent till proven guilty' type system, wher a first-time driver must only have to pay a legally binding fee (double the average premium is around E900, and young drivers are adjudged to be twice the risk, so we could set the figure at say E900). If that person has an accident, then he will obviously have to cough up more for his cover. If he does NOT have an accident, he must not have to pay a penny more than he already is, and as his years of clean driving stack up, he should be rewarded by cheaper premiums on a year-on-year basis.

3. Eventually we should implement a system based around the model they have in New Zealand. The current system were people pay a fee every year to an insurance company (Or monthly by Direct Debit), would be replaced by a 'insurance tax' levied on fuel. So the person who uses the least amount of petrol pays less insurance while the person who uses the most petrol pays the most. A 2-3% levy on petrol prices would MORE than cover what monies this fund required. People wopuld not then have to fork out the hundreds 9Even thousands!) of euros on once off payments every eyar, as they do so now.

MIJAG is currently waiting in the wings and carefully watching Minister Harney and her various consultative groups like a hawk.

For more information please see http://www.mijag.com

On the Michael Barry issue, it was the MIJAG members in Cork, THEMSELVES who voted to back him. If other people standing for election in that area at the time had done even half the work on this issue that he had, they too might have got the backing of the group. But the fact is they did not, and in the main the young drivers were largely ignored, hence the reason why other candiates were not 'backed' in the end.

by Dexters Sat Aug 09, 2003 05:02

Sound proposals Sean, seem like smart and practical ideas. But why did MIJAG not make these recommendations in its, very limited, submission to the Dail Sub Committee that reported on Thursday?

Also has MIJAG ever got any information or response back, offically or unoffically, on the level of support or not for the New Zealand system?

by Justin Moran - Sinn Féin Sat Aug 09, 2003 18:24

Quick note that Sinn Fein has called for a nationalised state owned, run and operated car insurance company and did so in our election manifesto, come to think of it I think it was Ográ's section of that manifesto. The Government's response has been that such a move would be a violation of EU law. Apologies for not clearing this, or indeed our entire manifesto through the shadowy (I say shadowy because noe one has yet informed me of the make-up of the SP leadership or the party's structures) SP hierarchy.

As for MIJAG, a visit to its website shows a press release from warning that though they had been quiet in 2002 since the election they were going to step up a gear in 2003. Still, four months to go. As for watching Harney like a hawk....yeah.

by John Meehan Mon Aug 11, 2003 11:54

Seán from the SP wrote in reply to a point I introduced :

"On the Michael Barry issue, it was the MIJAG members in Cork, THEMSELVES who voted to back him. If other people standing for election in that area at the time had done even half the work on this issue that he had, they too might have got the backing of the group. But the fact is they did not, and in the main the young drivers were largely ignored, hence the reason why other candiates were not 'backed' in the end."

I fail to see how this information could alter my impression that the MIJAG is an SP glove puppet - just so people understand what I am getting at here, the clearest example of this phenomenon in Ireland that I know of is the Anti Nazi League - which has no independent existence separate and part from the SWP.


Readers interested in the relationships that ought to be established between political parties and united campaigning organisations could refer to an interesting ongoing debate between Murray Smith (a founding member ofthe SSP, now a member of the Ligue Communiste Révolutionnaire (LCR, France) and John Rees of the British SWP. The documents (or links to the documents) are posted on the website of the International Socialist Movement, a platform of the SSP.

by Jim Monaghan Tue Aug 12, 2003 12:13

If campaigns are to grow and maybe win they have to grow bigger than their founders. Neither the SP, SWP or Sinn Fein own the issue.I am fed up of political parties setting up fronts which only they control.
Aside from the usual suspects of Insurance companies we should address the issues of bad driving and drunk drivers. The failure to provide decent public transport for people from pubs etc.And maybe address the culture of drink driving.
Perhaps there should be an automatic device fitted to cars to prevent speeding.
Should driving be taught in the schools. Personally I think Driving, Computer skills along with the old 3 R's are are democratic right not fulfilled by our education system.