Fascist or Arpartheid State?

by jams - FABIO Fri Aug 29, 2003 16:03

Why post your blind opinion on "poor little israel"? This hardly news. Are for this facist apartheid nation, most of its inhabitants are from the US and Russia, so theres no problem in sending them back to where they came from. Israel is basically a US colony, and in the best yankee tradition has used ethic cleansing and brutaltity to remove the natives and take over itself. As long as this statelet which is the most heavily subsidised and heavily armed in the world continues to brutalise a largely unarmed population and murders children for throwing stones I will continue to hate and oppose it. As will most peeple who believe in justice for the opressed and weak.
Long live Palestine.

by dixi Fri Aug 29, 2003 17:07

That the state of Israel is a necessity arising from the Shoah is a statement that should not need to be repeated.
However it seems that large parts of the Irish Left through an unreflected anti-imperialism (israel=US=Evil, Israel=Nazi Germany and other such nonsense) run danger of willingly or unwillingly aligning themselves with islamic fundamentalism and anti-semitism.
In the face of a global upsurge in anti-semitism and anti-semitic violence this is irresponsible and dangerous. What we need is not a discussion about the state of Israel but about the politics and actions of this state - a debate that is being fought by the left in Israel and Palestine alike and which in face of escalting violence on both side is being increasingly marginalised.

by me Fri Aug 29, 2003 18:08

I think one point that all nearly agree on is that the current state of Israel should cease to exist. this does not neccessarily mean the deportatioon of all jews. This may be seen as similar to the end of Northern Ireland as an entity does not mean repatriation of all loyalist etc. Under its current state the way wealth water is distributed, the value placed on the lives of certain sectors of the community and the rights of people of palestinian desent it should be destroyed. This does not mean that people of Jewish desent could not participate in a more egalitarian society

by Righteous Pragmatist Fri Aug 29, 2003 19:05

Israel is the sole liberal capitalist society in the entire middle east. All the other countries in the middle east are dominated by extremist Islamic fundamentalism, Arab fascist nationalism or extremist marxism.
Israel has free and fair elections, it allows and does not persecute other ethnic, religious or political minorities unless they threaten the security of the liberal democractic society.
The PLO, Islamic Jihad and Hamas are the dominant political religious fascist movements in the Palestinaian neighbourhoods on the west bank of the Jordon.They advocate autocratic totalitarianism mixing extremist religosity and politics. Anyone who threatens them be they Palestinian, Arab or Israeli or Western or foreigners is the target of violence. The use of suicide bombers( deranged nutters) to deliberately kill innocent men women and children whose only "crime" is to be Jewish demands utter condemnation.
Israeli assassinations of Palestinians gunmen and terrorists are a last resort. Their purpose is to prevent the continued murders of Israelis and because the PLO who rule the Palestinian communities not only do nothing to prevent these murders but actually organise and support them.
The aims of the PLO et al is the destruction of Israel and the wholescale murder of millions of Jews following the example of Hitler and Stalin who they take their politics from.
Israelis have lived for generations in the Holy Land. For better or worse it is now their homeland in the same way as Ulster is for better or worse populated by a Protestant majority who wish to remain British. That is the essence of democracy.
Al-Quaida, the PLO, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, the remnants of the Baathist regime, Iran, Libya, North Korea and communists, anarchicists and skin heads world wide hate democracy, hate liberalism, hate Jewishness, hate moderate Islamic religion, hate Christianity, hate Hinduism, hate difference, tolerance and freedom. they wish to impose their narrow ignorant and brutal vision upon the decent peace loving and tolerant common man woman and child that they despise for daring to have contrary views and the desire to live they want.
Long live Israel. Long live the U.S.A. Long live the E.U. and long live the United Nations.

by Rapper Tandy Fri Aug 29, 2003 19:28

All adult settlers in the Occupied Territories are armed and therefore are legitimate military targets. Congratulations to the Palestinian Freedom Fighters who today shot dead one armed Zionist settler and wounded another.

by Rapper Fri Aug 29, 2003 19:37

Is anyone going to act against the Rogue Terrorist State of Israel?

Israel 'would bomb Iran N-plant' (AP Breaking News

Israel has made plans to bomb an Iranian nuclear power plantit has been reported. Military commanders have mapped out a route Israeli fighter jets would take to destroy the Bushehr reactor on the Persian Gulf, officials told the Washington Times. Russia has been helping Iran to build its first nuclear plant for eight years in a deal worth about £500 million to Moscow. Both countries say it is purely for civilian purposes. But the US claims Iran could use the technology to build a nuclear bomb, and President George Bush is expected raise the issue with Russian leader Vladimir Putin at next month's Camp David summit.

by simon Fri Aug 29, 2003 21:37

rightous P. do you ever consider the root causes of hatred in that region?

also it bothers me when people shrug off suicide bombers as deranged lunatics. Yes its an almost unthinkably difficult thing to imagine doing yourself but its clearly an extension of the desperation of the situation. One of the Chechen 'black widows' said it clearly when she described how she had lost her parents, father and sons to the fighting with Russia and had nothing left to live for, simple as that. She was willing to give her life in the struggle to help those around her.

Whether its a palestinian suicide bomber or an Israeli soldier in a US sponsored attack helicopter the effect is the same and the results equally abhorrent. Can you really say that a murderous act is more 'civilised' and less worrying because its conducted from a modern helicopter or with modern weapons? is it suddenly a terrorist when no uniform is worn????

by Ali la Pointe - Remember all cataclysms, including the Shoah and Al Naksa Fri Aug 29, 2003 22:43

Critics of the Israeli state's brutal policies are met with the cry "anti semite!" at every turn.
They are experts at silencing debate. Jews who refuse the draft, like Benjamin Netenyahu's nephew, in the world's most militarized society (no I didn't say fascist, I said fascistic)face repeated arrests. Jews who criticise its policy are "traitors". I have met dozens of Jewish people who are against Israel, but never an Arab who was pro.

Yes there is an anti-semitic thread through Arab nationalism. It needs to be challenged.

No the palestinians don't want another "final solution" for the Jews, they just want an end to Israel's "final solution" for them.

Go to the adalah site linked below and browse the human rights communities' links in palestine/israel for a balanced view

Victims of Shoah defend themselves against anti-semitism

Beacon of democracy and progressive values welcomes refugees

Upholders of international legal norms fight terrorists

by Seáinín Sat Aug 30, 2003 01:48

There's definitely something rotten in the State of Israel but let's not lose sight of the fact that two wrongs do not a right make.

I sorta see their point of view after another deliberate targeting of civilian by a homicide bomber.

by s.fleming Sat Aug 30, 2003 15:39

I agree that the Palestinian people have suffered greatly.Israel's aggressive and arrogant policies have to change and they must recognise the need for justice in this situation. It does concern me though that many on the left and growing numbers of Muslims are of the view or forming the view that Israel must be destroyed . Surely the only way forward is a two state solution and an end to the oppression of the Palestinian people, many forms of which Israel could address now without any threat to their security.Israel must recognise that resistance to justice for the palestinian people is only going to lead to more violence and suffering for their own people. I believe that we must hold out the possibility and the hope of real change and real justice with two states living peaceably side by side.

by Ali la Pointe - an t-intifada fáda Sat Aug 30, 2003 16:02

Are you serious. You mean like it worked in Ireland? Cyprus? India-Pakistan?

or how about a secular republic. One that could be e beacon of religious tolerance for the world, a haven for refugees and minorities, jew, arab, christian alike, one that doesn't have racial stipulations for the right to return.

Israeli soldiers granting Palestinians freedom of speech

by s.fleming Sat Aug 30, 2003 16:31

Personally, yes, I would prefer a secular republic where all faiths and those of no faith could live together, but is it possible? It certainly is not what many Muslims believe or work towards. Many Muslims believe in establishing the Islamic State, the Khilafah and Dar al-Islam where Islamic Law is implemented in all matters of life even if its citizens are non-Muslims.

by hs - sp Sat Aug 30, 2003 16:40

I think you are putting words in peoples mouths here. I have not heard of any support for Hamas here or any other islamic fundamentalist group. Here I have only heard critisims of the israeli state rather than attacks on its people. In the end the israeli state has to take responsibility for its actions and its role in the the situation.

As you yourself said they have taken in millions over the last fifty years. Yet the people who were driven out of their homes were continuously told there is no room. As we speak the israeli government is still expanding its territory as it did right through the old peace process.

The fundamendalistic groups themselves did not exist 20 years ago when the palestinians were led by the PLO who's objective was pluralistic. Isreal has pushed more and more palestinians into becoming suicide bombers. This is not normal people don't just wake up one morning and decide to kill themselves and a bus load of children it takes fifty years of humiliation first.
Of course the palestinian groups have something to answer for their failure to liberate the country. And every suicide bomber destroys any chance of sympathy from israelis and the outside world.

You also express israel and palestine as black and white. Their are many in israel who would like to see israel withdraw and for the fighting to end. Their is a movement and an indymedia there too. I have personally met israelis who say the palestinians have a right to fight for independence. As in Britain there was those who supported irelands struggle.

As for the partition question, i don't see it as the same as cyprus etc. As in reality palestians and israelis have a different language and culture too not simply religion. If there is a unified state i think the west bank and gaza will become south african style townships. I think the palestinians need independence seperate from israel to try and pick themselves up. They will also need a socialised economy as their is little or no industry there to begin with and only the state will be in a position to industrialise. And for all intents and purposes the state is partitioned now. They're building a wall! But the palestinians are getting the partition without the power on their side and with israeli tanks free to roam.

Heres a website of the sps sister group there and indymedia also have a site. So you can investigate what israeli activists and writers themselves are saying rather than irish supporters.

http://www.maavak.org.il/maavak/index.php

there are articles in english

by Salah Sat Aug 30, 2003 17:16

The form of apartheid Israel applies against Palestinians fulfils all elements of the crime of apartheid as defined under the International Convention on the Suppression and Punishment of the Crime of Apartheid (1976), which expressly states that the crime of apartheid “shall include similar policies and practices of racial segregation and discrimination as practiced in southern Africa'”.

As stated in a report on the Apartheid Wall by the Palestinian human rights organization LAW: “The Apartheid Convention declares the 'crime of apartheid' to be a crime against humanity and punishable by State Parties to the Convention, or by an international penal tribunal having jurisdiction over state parties that accept its jurisdiction. It sets out the elements that comprise the crime of apartheid and the liabilities for perpetrating the crime….’Apartheid’ has been legally defined by a number of international treaties as a war crime and crime against humanity, with a broader meaning and applicability, including under Protocol 1 to the Geneva Conventions; the International Criminal Court Statute 1998, and the International Convention on the Suppression and Punishment of the Crime of Apartheid 1973.
“These treaties legally define ‘apartheid’ as ‘a system of institutionalised racial segregation and discrimination for the purpose of establishing and maintaining domination by one racial group … over another … and systematically oppressing them’. The Apartheid Convention comprehensively lists examples of inhuman acts designed to establish and maintain domination and systematic oppression. “Israeli actions/policies fulfil these elements including: Denial of the right to life and liberty of person; Murder; Infliction of serious bodily or mental harm, by infringement of their freedom or dignity, or by subjecting them to torture, or cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment; By arbitrary arrest and illegal imprisonment; Deliberate imposition of living conditions calculated to cause a group their physical destruction in whole or in part; Legislative or other measures calculated to prevent a group from participation in the political, social, economic and cultural life of the country and the deliberate creation of conditions preventing the full development of such a group denying their basic human rights and freedoms (including Right to work; Right to form recognised trade unions; Right to education; Right to leave and to return to their country; Right to nationality; Right to freedom of movement and residence; Right to freedom of opinion and expression; Right to freedom of peaceful assembly and association); Measures (including legislative) designed to divide the population along racial lines by: Creation of separate reserves and ghettos for the members of a racial group, Prohibition of mixed marriages, and Expropriation of landed property; Exploitation of labour; Persecution of organisations and persons by depriving them of fundamental rights and freedoms because they oppose apartheid.”
The Apartheid Wall is designed to divide the population along racial lines by creation of separate reserves and ghettos for the members of a racial group; separation of Palestinian families/communities; controls on freedom of movement through the system of ID cards, curfews and closures; and the expropriation of landed property.
LAW

by Avi H. Sun Aug 31, 2003 09:19

Those who actually know Israel well and speak its language as well as some Arabic will have no difficulty in recognising it as a beacon of light in an otherwise sinister region. It is the Arabs who are the xenophobic, fascist imperialists in the Middle East, not the Jews. Those who assert otherwise betray either their ignorance and/or their true leanings.

by Bit Witwasserzung - Afrikaaner Protection League Sun Aug 31, 2003 16:35

Those who actually know South Africa well and speak Afrikaaner as well as some nKhosa will have no difficulty in recognising it as a beacon of light in an otherwise sinister region. It is the Blacks who are the xenophobic, fascist imperialists in Southern Africa, not the Whites. Those who assert otherwise betray either their ignorance and/or their true leanings.

by Jason McBillie - British Israelite Christian Organisation (BICO) Sun Aug 31, 2003 19:29

Those who actually know Ulster well and speak its language as well as some Erse will have no difficulty in recognising it as a beacon of light in an otherwise sinister region. It is the Irish who are the xenophobic, fascist imperialists in these islands, not the British. Those who assert otherwise betray either their ignorance and/or their true leanings.

by Davy Crockett - Pilgrims for Civilisation Sun Aug 31, 2003 19:33

Those who actually know America well and speak its language as well as some Injun languages will have no difficulty in recognising it as a beacon of light in an otherwise sinister region. It is the Indians who are the xenophobic, fascist imperialists in the New World, not the Pilgrims. Those who assert otherwise betray either their ignorance and/or their true leanings.

by Bigot McBiblethump - God's People Sun Aug 31, 2003 20:53

The Holy Bible says we can do what we want to you.

by Jason McBillie - British Israelite Christian Organisation (BICO) Mon Sep 01, 2003 01:22

Those who actually know Ulster well and speak its language as well as some Erse will have no difficulty in recognising it as a beacon of light in an otherwise sinister region. It is the Irish who are the xenophobic, fascist imperialists in these islands, not the British. Those who assert otherwise betray either their ignorance and/or their true leanings.

by Makhnist Mon Sep 01, 2003 02:33

Well, first off all most of the people are from places like Morocco and Yemen, but yes there is quite a huge amount of russians there (umm myself?).

Try and live in Russia or Ukraine, you`ll run back to Ireland before you could say "john smith".

I just wonder - how many of you actually know what zionism is? how many of you have read Pinsker or know about organizations like the Keren Kayemet?

I always belived that people have a right to live where they want. Aparently I was wrong, they must live within their own nation and race, defend themselves from other nations with borders and to kill all the migrants.

by Ali la Pointe Mon Sep 01, 2003 14:09

So did I. So why can't Palestinians live where they were living before the 1948 Naksa (Cataclysm)?

by Makhnist Mon Sep 01, 2003 23:10

You are right. They have the right to live there.

Note: there were no Arab states that gave the Palestinian refugees citizenship, except for Jordan and individual Palestinians.

by Ali la Pointe Tue Sep 02, 2003 12:59

Giving the Palestinians that right, along with all the rights of citizenship, would threaten the existence of Israel as an exclusively Jewish(and aggressively anti-Arab) state. It would have to be replaced with a non-sectarian entity. Zionists would never stand for that. That is why there is all this hullabaloo about critics of Israel being anti-semites. Zionists are fighting dirty in a desperate attempt to efend the indefensible.

by Hal Silke Thu Sep 04, 2003 11:09

The reality is that the CWI support the Israelis against the Palestinians. They call the actions of Hamas, Al Aqsa terrorist but call the Isaraelis workers in uniform. They do not support the liberation struggle in the Occupied Territories.

Their solution is for occupied Palestine to be subsumed into the Israeli State. In the meantime they will not allow Palestinians to have a seperate CWI section. It is part of and subordinate to the Israeli Section.