Ógra Shinn Féin push for All-Ireland elections

by Irish Republican Thu Jan 22, 2004 11:19

The majority of the people of Northern Ireland are Unionist and want to remain part of Britain. A minority want to be part of the Irish Republic.
The majority is the ascendent voice not the minority who still have a say in how their country is run but not the final say.
That is called democracy.
The President in the south of Ireland has no jurisduction over the north while democracy exists in both states.
The population of Northern Ireland are not part of the rest of Ireland while that situation exists and therefore rightly have no say in elections in the 26 counties no more than they have a say in elections in France.
sure one day I'd welcome it if Unionist changed their minds about us in the south and we had a peaceful tranisition to unification of the island.
But then again i really don't give a damn if they do our not.
I've got a life.
Why don't you Sinn Fein people get one too.

by Tom Shelley Wed Jan 21, 2004 17:54 Boulder, CO USA

1) I am pretty sure this proposal is limited entirely to voting for President. The Pres., as has been noted elsewhere, is an almost entirely ceremonial position, they are the Head of State, a representative of the nation, not the policy-making, law-passing gov't or parliament. So there really isn't any reason to believe that this would mean Northerners having influence over laws passed in the South. Also, unless you consider the North to be as foreign to Ireland as Zimbabwe or Poland are, if you believe it is part of the Irish nation, then they should have the right to vote for the person who represents them on the world stage. I'm sure that's one reason why Northerners can run for Pres.

2) I'm not sure of what the Constitution says about this, how the new articles 2 & 3 affect it, but the proposal is to extend voting rights to non-resident irish cituzens in the North specifically or perhaps world-wide. I'm pretty sure this would be limited to people who actually are Irish citizens but are living somewhere else. I could be wrong about this but I'm pretty sure it wouldn't give voting rights to people of Irish descent who are not citizens of Ireland.

3) "Considering yourself Irish does not mean you are affected by the decisions of the Irish government. Because someone is Iraqi does not mean they supported Saddam, Because someone is American doesn't mean they support Bush. The Government of a country is very different to the People of a country".

I'm sorry, but this is really stupid. You are saying that if someone considers themselves American, they support Bush? Then I must be a right-wing ass-hole, because I'm American. Your last sentence is right on, but I'm not sure what it has to do with this discussion.

Tom

by No Vote Wed Jan 21, 2004 17:15

Thanks for the reply Jonah. I accept that SF would probably favour the extention of the vote to all residents and to make the postal vote system better. However I have to raise my disagreement with some other points you make.

"They obviously still consider themselves Irish and decisions made by the Irish Government can certainly still affect them"

Considering yourself Irish does not mean you are affected by the decisions of the Irish government. Because someone is Iraqi does not mean they supported Saddam, Because someone is American doesn't mean they support Bush. The Government of a country is very different to the People of a country.

You are correct to say that you and I would be more informed on US politics than many US resident citizens. However I am not living in the USA, I don't know the local issues and problems. I don't really know the political mood of the American people, you and I just hear it secondhand. Not quite the same with Northerners, as they are in the same country as Southerners, but the same idea applies.

I also think that Northerners voting would be a massive amount and would dramatically effect the results. Northerners count for about 25% of the population. Even if its restricted to Northerners it would still be a massive amount that is 'out-voting' Southerners.

Why not call for Southerners to vote in Northern elections? Same idea. I'm not a foreigner when I go north of that border. I'm well informed on politics in the North.

by Jonah - Sinn Féin Wed Jan 21, 2004 16:46

Quick point that I'm not speaking on behalf of Ográ, just doing this off my own bat.

>1. Irish citizens resident abroad are not >subject to the rule of the Dail, President, etc >that they elect. That's unfair on Irish >residents in the South.

In a fashion though they are. As Irish citizens they are members of the Irish state, even if resident abroad. They obviously still consider themselves Irish and decisions made by the Irish Government can certainly still affect them.

>2. Extend voting rights to non-citizens >resident in South. In the South non->nationals have not got full voting rights. Only >in Local elections is there votes for all >residents. In Dail elections on UK and Irish >vote, in referenda and presidential votes >only Irish citizens vote, in Euro elections it's >Irish and other EU only.

I don't think SF would have any problem supporting that. As it is the party maintains that a more open and inclusive attitude should be taken to involving non-citizens in Irish political life and culture. While I don't think the party has a position on that per se, I think it would certainly be open to it.

>3. Irish citizens ouside the South do not >know what living in the South is like. How >can they have an informed vote? They don't >know local issues and candidates.

How many people in the South have an informed vote, how do you judge an informed voter? As a political nerd I'd have a good knowledge of the political process in the US for example, far better than some Americans, should I be allowed vote? I think you would find that if Irish citizens in the North could vote not only would they inform themselves as well as anyone down here, but they would be informed by candidates looking for their votes.

>4. Irish citizens outside the South out >number Irish resident in the South. In the >20th century 20 million Irish born people left >the country, their children and grandchildren >are Irish citizens. Why should we be out->voted?

The proposal is for the Six Counties, not everywhere in the world :) Frankly I think it's a related, but different issue. The Six COunties is part of Ireland, Vermont is not......yet.

>And the postal vote should be made easier >for students and those working strange >hours.

A point repeatedly made by Ográ Shinn Féin.

Hope this helps, don't expect to have the time to get back to this so contact Ográ for more information.

by Mike Wed Jan 21, 2004 16:32

I have no right to a say in your internal matters so this should NOT be interpreted as a comment pro or con on the issue itself.

"No Vote" --- did youTRULY misunderstand?? Or are you trying to insert an implicit argument about the status of the rest of Ireland by treating the voting suggestion as if it were referring to "overseas" Irish?

Is THAT how you consider the rest of your island, no longer Ireland and forever? Then how about an EXPLICT statement from you to that efffect rather than this oblique reference to "overseas Irish". SORRY -- but I do not believe you HONESTLY did not understand that this proposal is coming from people who still retain hopes of someday "liberating" those portions of Ireland THEY consider to be under "foreign domination". That these people consider the "Six Counties" an intrinsic part of Ireland. I think it was perfectly clear that this proposal was intended as a "non-violent" contuation of their campaign.

You may not agree with that, might consider the Six Counties not and never again part of Ireland. Then say so and stop pretending the people making this proposal are saying something quite different than they are. Of course it is possible that like me you do NOT have a legitimate say in the matter.

by No Vote Wed Jan 21, 2004 16:29

Why not also call for Southerners to vote in Northern elections? Afterall there are only about 2.5 million of us in south for your 1 million voters. That's nothing on the 6-7 million that you want to vote in southern elections.

While we're at it, in the interests of the peace process why not let the 60 million people of Britain vote in Northern Elections, afterall their UK citizens.

by SM Wed Jan 21, 2004 15:54

asm long as we can vote for Big Ian

by No Votes Wed Jan 21, 2004 13:42

I don't agree with this for the following reasons:

1. Irish citizens resident abroad are not subject to the rule of the Dail, President, etc that they elect. That's unfair on Irish residents in the South.

2. Extend voting rights to non-citizens resident in South. In the South non-nationals have not got full voting rights. Only in Local elections is there votes for all residents. In Dail elections on UK and Irish vote, in referenda and presidential votes only Irish citizens vote, in Euro elections it's Irish and other EU only.

3. Irish citizens ouside the South do not know what living in the South is like. How can they have an informed vote? They don't know local issues and candidates.

4. Irish citizens outside the South out number Irish resident in the South. In the 20th century 20 million Irish born people left the country, their children and grandchildren are Irish citizens. Why should we be out-voted?

In saying this I favour Irish that are temporarily not resident (intending to return within 3 years) in the south getting a vote. And the postal vote should be made easier for students and those working strange hours.

I'd like to see ÓSF or others in favour of this campaign answering my points.

by Tim Wed Jan 21, 2004 11:19

So he can't have it!

by Cora Ni Ghruagain-Belfast Organiser - Ogra Shinn Fein Tue Jan 20, 2004 22:19 Cora700 at hotmail dot com

OSF have launched a campaign to extend voting rights to the six counties in the forth coming presidential elections in the south of Ireland.

We would urge those interested in the campaign to visit the website for further details and sign the online petition-

www.apresidentforall.com
A President for All

Ógra Shinn Fein is calling on the Dublin government to allow citizens living in the 6-counties to vote in the 2004 Presidential Elections.

As a step towards the re-unification of our country, we believe that citizens living in the 6-counties should have the right to join with those living in the 26-counties to choose a President to represent the whole of the island of Ireland.

At present, we have a President who was born in Belfast; but the very people who grew up with her (and still live in Belfast), cannot vote for her!

Extending voting rights in Presidential elections to the 6-counties is a step towards a more inclusive society. We will only have a President who can truly represent the whole of Ireland when they are elected by all the people of Ireland.

by pat c Tue Jan 20, 2004 11:31

i was only joking. hate to lose norris though.

by iosaf Mon Jan 19, 2004 23:42

you also get a better type of drop out as well.
The Dublin University constituency (TCD) is a residual constituency, one need only look at the last MP to sit for that constituency, upon that farce termed "saorstát", the unionist constituency transformed to the Senate nominations.
I think that Ireland could easily offer one on of these Senator positions to the Irish non-residents citizens, in line with like "refreshing" the whole thing.
So..... who will we ditch?
Shane Ross? oh yes let's.

{on a technical theological note, I am not really empowered to absolve Pat C. so don't go sending me emails recounting your transgressions looking for heavenly reward, I do however offer a niffty little line in Indulgences, a plenary indulgence complete with certificate and ball point pen can be yours for only 30€ [30 euro for the Win 95 lot]}

by pat c Mon Jan 19, 2004 16:30

i meant to say nui. but surely tcd deserves its 3 seats, you get a better class of graduate AND a better degree.

by Legal Eagle Mon Jan 19, 2004 16:28

Pat rightly says that 43 members of the Seanad are elected by councillors. These 43 are meant to have certain interests, eg public administration. However in reality they are just party hacks.

However Pat is wrong to say that 3 are elected by graduates of UCD. 3 are elected by graduates of the National University of Ireland. The NUI includes UCD, UCC, NUI Galway, NUI Maynooth, RCSI, NCAD, and then a few other smaller colleges. Even among Graduates there is inequity as Trinity College graduates have 3 seats while the whole NUI have 3, University of Limerick and DCU get no seats.

There are also 11 nominated by the Taoiseach, which gaurentees a government majority.

by pat c Mon Jan 19, 2004 14:17

i dont think the seanad would present the same difficulties. the constitution specifically provides for the seanad being elected by a restricted electorate eg at present 43 senators are elected by 1,000 councillors, 3 by tcd grads & 3 by ucd grads.

this is blatantly undemocratic.

by Sean Óg Mon Jan 19, 2004 14:10

The same arguments against non residents getting the vote in presidential elections apply to seanad election. It also has the same constitutional difficulties. You cant give northern citizens a vote without giving it equally to all non resident citizens. Anyhow should SF be advocating a continuence of the Seanda? It is a backward undemocractic institution, SF should really be looking for complete direct election of the seanad or its abolition.

by number cruncher Mon Jan 19, 2004 11:33

In the course of the 20th century TWO MILLION irish citizens left Ireland. That means there are TWO MILLION and their CHILDREN, and their GRANDCHILDREN who are Irish citizens.

They should not get the vote as they would out vote those living in Ireland! Apart from it being undemocratic that people not subject to the law should have a say in making the law you have to see that the MAJORITY OF IRISH CITIZENS ARE NOT IN THE 26 COUNTIES! I don't want to be out-voted in my own country!

by Seán Mon Jan 19, 2004 10:41

A chairde

Sign the petition at http://www.apresidentforall.com

Stating something like:


The assertion of Irish citizenship rights in the amended Article 2 of the 1937 Constitution placed a special responsibility on the Irish government to ensure that the rights of all Irish citizens are vindicated. This establishes an imperative on the Irish government to ensure that the right to full voting rights are afforded for citizens registered on the election lists in the Six Counties in referenda and presidential elections. Obtaining voting rights for northerners in forthcoming Presidential elections, is a step towards representation in Leinster House and the Séanad.

by Scath Sheamais - People's Front of Judea Sun Jan 18, 2004 16:59

Kelly - It's time for action on Presidential voting rights

Published: 17 January, 2004

Sinn Féin MLA for North Belfast Gerry Kelly today attended the launch of Ógra Shinn Féin's campaign to secure voting rights for Irish citizens in the Six Counties in this year's Presidential election campaign. Mr. Kelly said "the Irish government had stalled long enough. It is long past time that they bring forward the necessary legislation to allow Irish citizens in the Six Counties to vote in the 2004 Presidential election."

Mr. Kelly said:

"One of the most significant consequences of partition has been the effective disenfranchisement of the nationalist population living in the Six Counties.

"People in the Six Counties cannot vote for the President of Ireland; indeed, the current President, Mary McAleese, could not vote for herself. People in the Six Counties cannot vote on any proposed change in the constitution, which includes them. And they have not been afforded representation in the Dail, which frequently holds debates and takes decisions, which directly impact on their lives. Furthermore tens of thousands of people in the Six Counties elect their parliamentary representatives as Irish legislators and they are currently denied access to a parliamentary forum.

"For many years now Sinn Féin has been lobbying intensively for Northern participation in the political life of the nation. We raised the matter during the Good Friday Agreement discussions and following the signing of the Agreement the Taoiseach instructed the All-Party Committee on the Constitution to look into the various issues involved.

"It took the Committee from 1998 to 2002 to report on the issue and even their cautious recommendations recognised that the most obvious first step would be to extend voting rights in Presidential elections to all Irish citizens living on the island of Ireland. And several years on there has been no action from the Irish government.

"People from all over Ireland voted for the Good Friday Agreement and the Irish constitution was changed on the understanding that the Agreement would be implemented and change happen. The Irish government has failed to act on this issue for long enough. It is long past time that they bring forward the necessary legislation to allow Irish citizens in the Six Counties to vote in the 2004 Presidential election. It is an important part of the peace process and a natural outworking of the Good Friday Agreement.

"I want to commend Ógra Shinn Féin for launching this campaign and it will be getting the full backing of the party. And we will continue to campaign and negotiate until we secure:

* The right to vote in Presidential elections for citizens in the Six Counties

* Right of attendance at the Dáil for the 18 Westminster MPs elected in the Six Counties.

* Reform of the Seanad to include election by a national list system with people in the Six Counties having the right to vote." ENDS

by Seán Fri Jan 16, 2004 13:04

From Ógra Shinn Féin's Youth Manifesto on the Sinn Féin website.
"If young people are to play a full part in the political life of our country then we need to see our political institutions and politics open up and become more accessible to young people. Too often political institutions are seen as the preserve of middle class men in dull grey suits, with little or no knowledge of young people and our needs and aspirations.


Ógra Shinn Féin believes that:

The voting age should be lowered to 16;

All political institutions should have shadow youth assemblies or councils;

Political and civic education should become core subjects in the school curriculum from 13 years and up."

by golda Thu Jan 15, 2004 18:35

oh, and i loved that quote of that Loyalist could vote for Socialsts, and Unionists for the PDs, Federal State of Britain and Ireland my arse, and Michael McDowell is an ultra right-wing closest Unionist Castle Catholic.

by golda Thu Jan 15, 2004 18:30

"Why should a bunch of Northern sectarian nationailists have a say when it does not affect them at all."

[contentless insult edited out by R Isible - 1 of IMC Editorial]].

THEY ARE IRISH, AS IRISH AS YOU ARE,
AND IF NOT, MORE.

how dare you call northern nationalists sectarian?how dare you! i bet you are one of these types that has never even been up there and experienced what it is like for a nationalist up North.
the ideals of Irish republicanism are equality for all sects of religion. and on that comment on how the Good Friday Agreement was an agreement to compromisse and make both the communites live together and settle down, settle down in a British Royalist state?
NEVER.
THe GFA is a stepping stone to a united Ireland. Protestants and Catholics could get on together in an Irish Republic, after all, it was Northern Presbyterians who started the United Irishmen! and the sooner they rediscover the past, the better.

by irish born Thu Jan 15, 2004 18:26

no. they should not get a vote in elections in the south. why should they? why not call for southerners to vote in northern elections? They should not get a vote because they are not going to live with the consequences.

in general it's shown that citizens outside the jurisdiction have a different view to what the country is really like. the vast majority of irish citizens outside the state are not in the north, most are in britain, america, australia. in fact there are more irish citizens in britain (ie england, scotland, wales) voting in westminster elections than Resident Irish citizens voting in Dail elections.

***Among Irish citizens those over 18 and resident in the South are a MINORITY.*** Why should they have the value of their vote devalued by people who are not subject to the laws of the dail they elect!

by laughing out loud Thu Jan 15, 2004 17:27

Did you even read the OSF statement? If so, where does it say anything about them looking for votes for the "rich right wing americans who back Sinn Fein"?. And how many rich right wing americans live in the 6 Counties? which is to where OSF are proposing to extend the franchise from this part of Ireland to the rest. For everyone. You see? So republicans could vote for SF; SDLP types for FF, FG or Labour; Unionists for the PDs and loyalists for the Socialist Party.

by irish born Thu Jan 15, 2004 16:42

1. Why should non resident citizens have a vote on something they are not subject to. ie rich right-wing irish americans voting for something that poor irish residents have to put up with.

2. why should they get a vote when there are many residents without a vote already. In referenda and presidential elections only citizens vote, in Dáil elections irish and british, and Euro elections only EU citizens vote.

3. "constituency of my birth". That is madness. That means I (and many thousands) would be voting in the constituency of the Coombe hospital- Dublin South Central I think.

4. Irish Citizenship is given to all Irish born and thier children and grandchildren. So there are potentially 2 generations that have never set foot in Ireland voting in our elections. Also many of these would not even be aware of being Irish citizens, most of Australia are eligible for Irish passports for heaven's sake!

5. Irish abroad already have vote in Seanad elections. If an irish citizen is a graduate of Trintiy or the National University of Ireland they already vote in Oireachtas elections. Personally I think this should right should be taken off all graduates- regardless of where they live.

6. Pay more attention to reforming the electoral system for residents. For example the postal vote is hard to get, students, many workers, those in hospital can find it hard to exercise their vote. The right to vote should be extended to all residents, regardless of citizenship. What about making polling stations more accessable. What about giving under 18s the vote? All this is what should be campaigned on before looking for votes for rich right-wing irish americans that back sinn fein.

by iosaf Thu Jan 15, 2004 16:02

I'd like the right to vote in the constituency of my birth, if granted that right I shall recind my right as a European Union Citizen to vote in the consituency of my residency.
If allowed the irhgt to vote in the constituency of my birth, Ireland will join her fellow European States in full franchise, being at present the only state in the EU which does not allow non residents to vote.
In the elections where non residents voted in the EU in 2003, no more than 4% of total votes passed were attributed to non residents. In the recent Catalan Government elections non residents accounted for 2.6% of votes passed and mirrored exactly the voting patterns of resident voters.
Not until all "citizens" of Ireland are granted suffrage will it become clear how many have refuted such a right. Only then would we know how many do not vote.

It strikes me as curious that I with her excellency Mary 2, share the right to sit in the houses of the Oireachtas and serve my constituents, yet do not have the right to vote for same.

by P O'NEIL Wed Jan 14, 2004 21:56

As a former member of O$F, I can safely say that $F leadership are clutching straws in order to give members kids something to do or feel radical about which is now not part of their overall politics.

This is all about giving/directing young members up blind alleys. Nothing new there I here you say but at one stage O$F was going places, unfortunately others took the decision for them and lead them to Stormont which is why myself and others, there are others, left.

This is merely a game for those in suits to play with. drop them if you have any politics!

by Last of the Tallymen Wed Jan 14, 2004 16:24

Who will the candidates be? It's only around the corner and I'm sure that there is plenty of speculation. Given the nomination process it's the main parties that can decide.

Fianna Fail: If Mary McAleese nominates herself it's likely that they will not run against her as she will in effect be the FF candidate. Other options for FF would be David Andrews, who sought the nomination before, he has also notched up some work with NGOs.

Fine Gael: They say they are not running. And it's likely that they won't as they seem to be their own worst enemies. FG have never had a President and are unlikely to win this years contest. An obvious candidate would be Garrett Fitzgerald. He is a former Taoiseach and an Academic type. He is Chancellor of the National University, so he must like the ceremonial stuff.

Labour: Michael D. Higgins has already expressed interest in the position, and would be the favourite for the Labour nomination. I can't see them nominate someone like Dick Spring, or even try to nominate some liberal do-gooder again after the Adi Roche disaster.

Technical Group: There are 31 members of the Oireachtas that are independent or in SF, GP or SP. A likely candidate would have to appeal to all in this group. A candidate that springs to mind would be Senator David Norris. He's an academic type and has experience in the Seanad- like a number of previous Presidents. Joe Higgins has also been mentioned as a candidate by the Irish Independent, but highly unlikely in my book.

Councils: 4 councils can endorse a nomination. This is how Derek Nally and Dana got nominated last time. It's unlikely to happen again as the Partie will whip their councillors into following the party line. However if FG don't nominate anyone it may be an opening for their Councillors to nominate someone. But with FG in decline they won't do well in local elections and Labour and FF won't endorse any nomination.

Former or Retireing Presidents: Mary McAlleese is likely to nominate herself. Constitutionally Mary Robinson could come in to the race on her own nomination- but it aint gonna happen!

by Labour Lover Wed Jan 14, 2004 15:57

Presumably SF will support Mc Aleese, An embattled northern nationalist!! This would leave any other independent/technical group candidate short of numbers unless they go the local authority route. Don't be surprised if this is less successful as FG and FF want a stich up and with McA as incumbent it is easier for councillors to say no. Presumbaly Michael D. will try and get the various other forces of the left/greens behind him, not to win but to demonstrate the amount of support behind an alternative candidate

by pat c Wed Jan 14, 2004 15:43

to nominate someone who would outrage catholic obscurantism - David Norris!

seriously folks, Norris is capable of winning, hes also someone that labour could back. michael d. higgins might get a good vote but is a no hoper for a win.

no, i'm not suffering illusions in elections, this is an election for a ceremonial post but the victory of a gay progressive would be a blow against both the political and religious right.

by labour lover Wed Jan 14, 2004 15:19

Of more relevance, there now seems certain to be a contest even if FG have given up the ghost. What will SF and greens etc. do. To nominate a candidate they will have to club to gether. This is going much further than a "technical group" and would imply a loose alliance, surely even the greens wouldn't chnace that yet with so many questions around SF

by pat c Wed Jan 14, 2004 14:42

i also remember when they used to bury the hatchet but then they moved on to more humane punishment methods such as concrete blocks.

when are the oira going to decommission and disband?

by Janus Wed Jan 14, 2004 14:33

They haven't gone away you know.

by Chucky Wed Jan 14, 2004 13:40

Are the Officials back?

by Historian Wed Jan 14, 2004 13:20

Why are ÓSF caring so much about the Presidential elections? It does not matter. It an office that has no real power except in certain circumstances. If you look back at past Presidents they are FF hacks or are all from the world of the Law Library or from the Halls of Academia, not exactly working class heroes! Prof. McAleese was a Pro Vice Chancellor of QUB, Prof. Robinson was Professor in TCD, Dr. Hillery a tired old politician, Mr. Justice Ó Dalaigh was Chief Justice, Mr. Childers was a FF hack, Mr. DeValera was ex Taoiseach and Chancellor of the NUI, Mr. O'Ceallaigh was FF hack and ex Tánaiste, Prof. Hyde was Dean of Celtic Studies in UCD.

And then to get nominated is didgy. You have to be over 35, and get the backing of a large establishment Party.

by legaleagle Wed Jan 14, 2004 11:58

Sorry I only saw your last post after I had posted my reply.

That is what I am saying, you must give the right to vote to all citizens resident abroad if you are to include all irish citizens in the north.

One yhing that may be possible however is if the right to vote is extended on the basis of previous residency in the SOuth ie all citizens that were resident in the SOuth in the past 20 years. This could be done but it would not include most citizens in the North and must be open to citizens in the US, UK, Australia, Iceland, the South Pole, Rwanda or whereever

by legaleagle Wed Jan 14, 2004 11:53

Firstly the right of citizensip and nationality has NOTHING to do with the right to vote if you live outside the state.

Secondly, you are dead right to say that there is nothing in the constitution stopping the right to vote being extended to those resident outside the state. But the constitution is clear instating that all citizens must be equal before the law. If you granted the right to vote to those in the North and did not extend that right to vote to ALL citizens living outside the state it would be unconstitutional as you would be discriminating between non resident citizens.

Pat please go and look legal opinion on this. This issue has come up agains and again and every expert on the constitution agrees with my interpretation

by pat c Wed Jan 14, 2004 11:51

yes, it would possibly be unconstitutional to let irish citizens in the north vote and not also extend that right to irish citizens in , say, rwanda.

by pat c Wed Jan 14, 2004 11:47

"Article 9
2° The future acquisition and loss of Irish nationality and citizenship shall be determined in accordance with law."

See, its up to the oireachtas to decide who has irish citizenship.

Article 12

1. There shall be a President of Ireland (Uachtarán na hÉireann), hereinafter called the President, who shall take precedence over all other persons in the State and who shall exercise and perform the powers and functions conferred on the President by this Constitution and by law.



"2. 1° The President shall be elected by direct vote of the people.

2° Every citizen who has the right to vote at an election for members of Dáil Éireann shall have the right to vote at an election for President.

3° The voting shall be by secret ballot and on the system of proportional representation by means of the single transferable vote."

nothing about the citizens having to be based in ireland.

by legaleagle Wed Jan 14, 2004 11:37

It's not the relevant article. I am not denying they are entitled to citizenship. That is quite clear and should remain. The right to citizenship is different to the right to vote. Giving the right to vote to citizens that are not resident if done has to be done in an equitable manner. A law that gave the vote just to citizens living in the North will probably be unconstitutional. The extention of voting rights to non residents will have to give the right to vote to all citizens regardless of where they live in the world if is to extend to all those in the North.

by pat c Wed Jan 14, 2004 11:29

read article 2, its the one thats relevant. some of the reactionary politicians are talking about changing it because it protects citizenship rights for any baby born IN ireland.
people born in the 6 counties have always been entitled to irish citizenship.

by legaleagle Wed Jan 14, 2004 11:18

under thte constitution it also specifies that all citizens are equal before the law. By giving the vote to some citizens living outside the state and not to others it probably is unconstitutional. Either you give the vote solely to citizens living in the 26 counties or you give it to all citizens in the whole world, you cant discriminate between the North and the rest of the world.

by pat c Wed Jan 14, 2004 11:09

the constitution specifically recognises all people born on this island as having the right to irish citizenship. therefore it would be a legislative matter. many countries including the US, France, Germany allow citizens based "abroad" to vote. so it would not be unusual.

"Article 2

It is the entitlement and birthright of every person born in the island of Ireland, which includes its islands and seas, to be part of the Irish Nation. That is also the entitlement of all persons otherwise qualified in accordance with law to be citizens of Ireland. Furthermore, the Irish nation cherishes its special affinity with people of Irish ancestry living abroad who share its cultural identity and heritage."

by Southern voter Tue Jan 13, 2004 20:04

Ceremonial mainly but it also has limited powers in forming a government and dissolving the dáil as well as powers to send legislation to the supreme court. At certain times the execution of these powers can be very contraversial. Do you want a president that is accountable to people living outside the state having these powers? Do you want a pro IRA person executing these powers? I certainly do not.

Anyhow it is unconstitutional so its not going to happen

by pat c Tue Jan 13, 2004 19:57

the presidency is a ceremonial post. all of her/his speechs & public statements have to be cleared in advance by the government of the day. the president cant order the irish army to invade the north, honestly.

by Southern voter Tue Jan 13, 2004 19:54

Why should they have a vote when the President will have no jurisdiction in the North. Why should a bunch of Northern sectarian nationailists have a say when it does not affect them at all.

by Yossarian Tue Jan 13, 2004 16:57

Why should unionists care if Irish citizens residing in the six counties can vote for a figurehead president? Surely if all people born on the island are entitled to citizenship, they are all entitled to vote for their head of state, especially if resident on the island. Also consider that the current president is from Belfast.

I really don't care who's president but it would make sense if "nordies" were allowed to vote for the president.

by Don Tue Jan 13, 2004 15:03

the DUP are pushing in the opposite direction, demanding re-drawing of the Good Friday Agreement, presumably to make it more palatable to unionists.

My point. The peace process must be about compromise on both sides or it will fail. There may be a (relative) absence of violence but lack of violence for a period of time is no guarantee of a peacful future. (remember Yugoslavia with its 40 years of relative peace before it blew up in 1990?).

The Good Friday Agreement was supposed to be about closure. Bringing about something which both sides of the community could live with. But if both sides continue to push it for their own sectarian demands the whole process will eventually fall apart.