Why the deal wont work.

by an imcer Fri Dec 10, 2004 22:47

Look at the region drop down menu - 32 counties listed. Look at the site Front Page - Does it say Southern Ireland Indymedia?

If you want to be separatist about it then how about a Northern Ireland Indymedia?? ;-)

by Indymedia Ireland Editorial Group - Indymedia Ireland Fri Dec 10, 2004 22:57

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by An Púca Fri Dec 10, 2004 23:06 flannbui at yahoo dot com

As in the above piece I refer to the place as the six counties. I just thought Northern Ireland would be a better heading for Indymedia as some people wouldent have a clue what the six counties refers to.

by Billy Fri Dec 10, 2004 23:36

Puca, old boy. You seem to be a tad confused about the extent of the powers in the hands of the Northern executive.
A DUP-SF administration wouldn't have any power in many of the policy areas identified by you. For one, foreign affairs, and for another, sectarian marches.
And as for economics, (strange as it seems) the policy platforms of the DUP and SF place both of them the left of the political centre. (Even fervent DUP haters would concede that it is still economically closer to the SF than the UUP would be)
Ok, SF might pay lip service to liberal positions on issues like abortion (I say lip service because its leadership is only too aware of the reactionary nature of many of its rank and file- particularly in rurual areas) but once again this is totally irrelevant from the point of view of a Norn Iron govt.
Methinks that a DUP-SF govt would (and probably will, next year) work, helped by lots of long-suffering civil servants shuffling over and back between the different ministerial offices in order to minimise the need for face to face meetings.
And one last point. While it's unclear if Dr No will be first minister in the event of a deal, it's quite likely that SF will continue with its policy of maintaining Grizzly Adams' 'purity' by nominating someone else (Martin McGuinness) to the post of Dep 2st Minister.

by Barry Sat Dec 11, 2004 03:23

Bobby Sands clearly identifed the above as British strategy in Ireland . Brtain itself declared these as their means to victory.
The $inn £ein leadership have delivered all this through the GFA.

The GFA simply incor[porates every strand of British counter insurgency strategy here since 1976, and markets them as conditions for peace. As long as the British govts. presence remains there will always be republican resitance to it. Adams and his traitors have sold our freedom down the river. they are a total disgrace.

This simply guarantees a return to conflict, with Adams and $INN £EIN collaborating with the Brits.

by redjade Sat Dec 11, 2004 15:15

If either Sinn Féin or the DUP needs a photographer, I'm always happy to help.

Peace Plan could work like this:

1) I take photos of weapons at issue
2) post the photos on Indymedia.ie
3) All sides in the North can troll each other endlessly in the cyberspace of Indymedia.ie

4) Peace, at last.

SF and/or DUP can click on the following link to contact me and other Indymedia.ie Photogs to help in the peace plan....
http://www.indymedia.ie/contact.php

by . Sat Dec 11, 2004 16:12

Surely taking the photo is v. 20th century and old fashioned?
We could just generate a nicely humiliating / confidence building image and save the day.

by New Sinn Féin? Sun Dec 12, 2004 01:03 Belfast

If this article from the lastest edition of Socialist Worker is to be believed. - although it quotes the Sinn Fein website, so can be checked.

"As we go to print, a ‘deal’ to restore devolution to the North is still in the balance. The view of most observers is that it is no longer a question of if but of when. The DUP may try to delay but no-one doubts the deal will be done.
Working people in the North want to see a return of the Assembly, if only to stop New Labour from privatising everything that moves and introducing draconian water charges. But while the world’s media marvel at the ‘two extremes’ entering government together, on the economic front, there is little to divide the two parties.
Both talk about issues like poverty but when previously in government, they did nothing to change things – except by making things worse. Both DUP and Sinn Fein Ministers were responsible for privatisation of public services and there is no sign of their attitudes changing.
For example, Council workers in Derry say there is not a cigarette paper between Sinn Fein and the DUP when it comes to attacks on Council workers’ wages and conditions. Both parties unite to portray the workers off sick due to the stress of their jobs as ‘malingerers’ and to impose swinging pay cuts for workers in the city’s leisure centres.
The idea of a £1bn injection of additional cash as a ‘peace dividend’ is welcome. However, the list of funding demands to New Labour has come mainly from the business sector, with whom Sinn Fein held talks before coming up with their list.
A visit to Sinn Fein’s website provides very useful information on what Sinn Fein sees as the priorities for the economy of the island. Mitchell McLaughlin emerges as a McDowell deadringer.
Three times in the course of November, McLaughlin issued statements about the need for the ESB and NIE to work more closely together in the development of “the single all-Ireland energy market”.
Mr McLaughlin said: "Sinn Féin believe that a single all-Ireland energy market has the potential to deliver real gains for small and medium enterprises and industry as well as being an important element in the battle to eradicate fuel poverty”.
It is true that, with separate ‘energy markets’, a scandalous number of families live “in fuel poverty” North and South – finding it difficult to heat their houses. This is in line with poverty levels generally across the island. However, it is hard to see how a single ‘energy market’ will change this.
The answer, according to the Sinn Fein chairperson, is Thatcherite competition. Despite an assertion that “Sinn Fein are no fan of the free market philosophy”, McLaughlin buys into the core neo-liberal lie that competition is the key to providing cheaper services.
“Obviously ESB are in a position to offer potential customers in the north a very good deal and are aggressively looking to expand its number of customers. The concern at NIE is…that they are unable to compete on price”.
Mitchell McLaughlin’s naïve view of the effect of the market on life and prices in the South is accompanied by the kind of adoration of economic growth that would more normally be associated with the Progressive Democrats than with a supposedly ‘left-wing’ party.
On 25th November, he welcomed a business survey that indicated “good growth in the value of exports and that the rest of Ireland is now the most important export market for the 6 county economy ….Sinn Fein believe that greater co-operation, harmonisation and strategic interventions by the business and economic agencies across the island can build on this positive growth”.
There isn’t a Chamber of Commerce across the island which wouldn’t agree.
With regard to ‘strategic interventions’ by the working class, Sinn Fein has no more to say than the DUP.

by its all lies Sun Dec 12, 2004 08:42

Tony Blair and Bertie Ahern are involved in the murder of hundreds and thousands of innocents in Iraq.
Wake up! stop calling the GFA a peace deal!

by eight of may Sun Dec 12, 2004 14:02

support the peace process, join up for service with your local I.R.A unit.

Peace will only come through the complete military defeat of the crown forces of occupation.

Lets get back to some REAL negotiating, the type the Crown understands.

P.S oh and learning a bit of arabic might be no harm, the crowns enemy is our friend!!!!!!

Tiocfaidh ar la!

by rooster Sun Dec 12, 2004 16:49

eighth of may is not alone in the republican camp

by Freddy Sun Dec 12, 2004 16:58

Cheer up rooster, you never wanted the peace process anyway.

by barry Tue Dec 14, 2004 08:43

What a pity.

As more and more republicans reject the GFA sell out to the Brits and Yanks, chances are the likes of rooster will be sadder still before too long.

Arabic would indeed be a handy language to learn. Englands difficulty could yet be Irelands opportunity.

by buster Tue Dec 14, 2004 14:46

After decades of the IRA practising mayhem, murder, extortion, abduction, torture, intimidation, knee-capping, fire-bombing; the slaughter, dismemberment and evisceration of infants, mothers and fathers and the spectacular cowardice of shopping centre and public house bombing "campaigns", it is hard to fathom exactly how Sinn Fein feels that they might be further "humiliated".
There is no doubt that the civil rights status quo in Northern Ireland required an urgent and major overhaul for most of the 20th Century.

And it is, of course, legitimate and honourable to work to persuade the majority of the case for a united Ireland, although, given the foreseeable pre-eminence of the European Union, the abolition or retention of a six counties, British enclave can be of importance only to a dwindling, embittered, antique minority.

Timewarper-in-chief Gerry Adams, like some ageing striptease artist, with his will he won't he show us the weapons routine; his arthritic move-the-process-forwards bump and grind wearies and embarrasses, surely, everyone but himself and his self-celebrating clique of heroes.

So vain has the Sinn Fein leadership become that it does not hear its own hollow pomposity or recognise its cheesy posturing, its pantomine menace, it has come to resemble a cabal of nit-picking, cheese-paring, hair-splitting Tory lawyers.

by buster Tue Dec 14, 2004 14:49

Does the Republican Movement not realise that forming a government with a political wing of a still active terrorist movement and all that entails is a form of humiliation for the unionist community, whether they are politicians or the ordinary person in the street?
I would rather stop this costly charade and stick with Direct Rule because the Belfast Agreement is a flawed document which is actually based around sectarianism and can be counter productive by promoting, among other things, positive discrimination.

The major core of the Agreement should have been the requirement for paramilitary groups to disband.

Even if there was agreement and the Assembly was up and running, Sinn Fein/IRA will not draw a line in the sand and let democracy take its course.

by John O'Driscoll - Wherever Customs Is Tue Dec 14, 2004 15:27 jodrisco at ireland dot com Shanghai People's Republic

Gerry Adams has his Principles. So does Ian Paisley.

I commend them both to you in this time of no-principles, speaking Globally.

I do not, however commend you to their obduracy or their egos.

Or their principals.

Only blood is thicker.

by Barry Tue Dec 14, 2004 15:34

Ian Paisley has principles (not very nice ones sure) but I would like to know what Gerrys are. Hes probably the least principled politician on this island, which is quite a feat in itself.

Buster, has it ever occured to you that living under British rule and the Union Jack, for Irish people, in Ireland, the land of our birth , might not in itself be... well ...humiliating to some degree ? It is in most countries funny enough. But sure maybe theyre all headers too.

by Osama O'Brien Tue Dec 14, 2004 17:58

What juvenile nonsense. This is supposed to be a grown-up site, not a forum for teenage cliches.
What excuse can there be for using violence to further political ends in Ireland today, let alone forming an alliance with a bunch of atavistic, women-hating fascists like al-Qaida?

by Barry Tue Dec 14, 2004 18:14

Theres the slight matter (it may have escaped your notice) that part of this island is militarily occupied by the British government. In virtually every other country in the world thats excuse enough for violence.

Perhaps you prefer this countries alliance with an often hostile neighbour whose imperialist ambitions include the illegal occupation of Iraq and the ensuing slaughter. Are they decent people here and only nasty to "foreigners" perhaps. Is this a "good" illegal occupation and Iraq a bad one ?

by Osama O Tue Dec 14, 2004 19:17

On your slight matter of part of this country being "militarily occupied" by the British:
You seem to be forgetting about the fact that a majority of the north's population happen to regard themselves as British. And the majority of the rest of us living there would just like to get on with the rest of our lives.
It's a fact which Grizzly Adams and his mates are coming to terms with. Maybe you and the cavemen in Republican Sinn Fein should join the rest of us in the 21st century.
Fighting privatisation, racism and poverty happen to be more important to us than some dated urge to create a 23-county Gaelic nation. If that comes about through time then that's fine, but it won't improve people's living conditions.
And no, I don't happen to support the occupation of Iraq. And guess what? It's possible to hold this position and NOT be a supporter of militant Irish republicanism.

by Barry Tue Dec 14, 2004 19:31

I wondered whether you were a hypocrite or not. Cant you read (never mind count. Theres 32 counties in Ireland, do you want to hand the Brits another 3 ?)

Im not a member of RSF either or a caveman. As i said at the beginning, why do you think its wrong for the Brits to occupy Iraq and not your own country.

Is resisting occupation only good when its far away but wrong on your own doorstep ?

by Ali H. Tue Dec 14, 2004 19:51

I think Ian Paisley should get his photos of bunkers being sealed in exchange for having his mouth sealed. He has obviously lost the plot completely as his antics with Bertie Ahern make it blindingly obvious that he doesnt even want a southern Taig about the place, never mind the northern ones! Paisley's my way or the highway approach leads nowhere and it is time for him to go the way of Maggie Thatcher, silence and oblivion.

by eight of may Tue Dec 14, 2004 20:52

I suppose osama obrien is one of those who protest at the presence of U.S military in Shannon on their way to occupy Iraq, yet ignore the 16,000 British Troops who are occupying this Island?

Or perhaps the U.S aren't occupying Iraq, since they were invited to stay by the "Iraqi Administration".

And while we are deluding ourselves that the above is true, we can delude ourselves that the Irish were not the victims of ethnic cleansing and genocide at the hands of the british.

Lets pretend we are all brits and be done with it!!!!!!!!!!!!

by Osama O Tue Dec 14, 2004 22:01

Guys, You still don't seem to be able to get your head around "the reality (to use provo-speak for a moment) of the situation" in northern Ireland / the 6 counties etc.
British troops are there at the moment but anyone who has been observing the political process there in recent times will know that demilitarisation is a practically a fair-accompli in the future. The SF leadership have reached an undertstanding with the British government that this will be sorted out once the current mess is overcome.
The reality on the ground - which you both fail to address - is that the majority of the population living in the north are British, while the vast majority of the rest of the people on this island no longer have an appetite for armed struggle. It's a dated concept here, although not in other parts of the world.
Iraq is a place where the US murder innocents everyday. Don't insult the suffering of Iraq to suggest that the political situation in the north of this island is comparable.
As for not being able to count, (23/ 32 counties) I always thought that the beauty of Indymedia is that we didn't act take Barry's pedantic attitude towards other peoples typo's. We'd be here all night if we were to pick up on every one of his.

by eight of may Wed Dec 15, 2004 02:48

The fact that the ethnic cleansing/genocide has stopped does not justify the continued invasion. Are you suggesting Osama that it is o.k to invade a country as long as you don't kill people? The population of this Island was near on 9 million today it is near on 6 million, that is 3million down. Those people were largely murdered, starved to death or were driven out through fear. So in a historical context I am sure it will rank up there with Iraq or Serbia or any other imperialist genocide.

By the way most of the people of the 6 counties consider themselves Irish, Dr. Paisley has described himself as Irish.

Why is it that the people of Ukraine are rebelling? Oh, it,s against the planted Russian population something similar to the Russian plantation of Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia.......and Chechneya?

Are you even beginning to see the picture?
National Self Determination without outside influence.

As for being in a minority, yes we are in a very small minority. I accept that, however Physical force nationalism has always been in that position yet without it we would be in the same position as Scotland (still be getting used to our new devolved parliament)

We havent gone away, and until national self determination is achieved we wont be going away.

P.S we wont be looking for your vote.

by Barry Wed Dec 15, 2004 09:08

Osama, the reality of the situation is the $inn £ein leadership have agreed with the Brits to collaborate militarily by joining the PSNI - a heavily armed British police force. Once theres no shortage of renegades doing Britains dirty work, the Brits can scale down their presence. Its simple mathematics and not a huge breakthrough. Normalisation has been a key plank of British counter insurgency strategy since 76, along with Ulsterisation and the criminalisation of POWs.

The reality on the ground in 1916 was only a tiny minority felt the need to take a revolutionary stand. They were also spat upon, hated and ridiculed by NATIONALIST Ireland. But they were right, Ireland was sinking into full acceptance of British dominion and collaboration in its Imperialist wars. Today isnt much different.

As for being an armchair republican, well I joined the Movement back in 1985. My armchair must be pretty threadbare by now. If I can just get a few armchairs shipped in from Iraq theyll no doubt be put to good use.

by Barry Wed Dec 15, 2004 13:39

I wasnt pointing your typos out to be pedantic. I just knew it would annoy you. And it did. Ha.

by Osama O Wed Dec 15, 2004 15:29

So this is what republicans consider intelligent debate. Dearie me.

by Barry Wed Dec 15, 2004 16:08

But its near Christmas so lighten up a bit. Anyway, you started it by calling me names.

So there.

by LOL Tue Feb 01, 2005 11:36

LOL.