|
|
Blog Feeds
The SakerA bird's eye view of the vineyard
Public InquiryInterested in maladministration. Estd. 2005
Human Rights in IrelandPromoting Human Rights in Ireland
Lockdown Skeptics
|
Were 'Anti-Fascists' Right To Vandalise The Sean Russell Statue? dublin |
history and heritage |
feature
 Sunday January 16, 2005 21:34 by Pádraig Ó Ruairc flannbui at yahoo dot com
 A brief analysis of Irish Republicans and their alleged collaboration with Nazi Germany.
The idea that "my enemy's enemy is my friend" is as old as war itself. The United Irishmen and later the Fenians held that "England's difficulty was Ireland's opportunity" as the British military became increasingly involved in colonial wars and disputes. In the First World War Irish republicans sought German military aid. The small amount of aid rendered does not mean that the I.R.B. supported German imperialism or a German monarchy. Pearse stated at his courtsmartial "Germany is no more to me than England is. I asked and accepted German aid in the shape of arms and an expeditionary force, we neither asked for nor accepted German gold, nor had any traffic with Germany except what I state: My aim was to win Irish Freedom." It was in this tradition that republicans saw themselves acting, when they sought foreign military aid in later years.
In the 1920's the I.R.A. had very strong connections with the Soviet Union. Pa Murphy was granted an audience with Stalin where he requested finances and arms for the I.R.A. and members of the I.R.A. attended celebrations in Russia marking the tenth anniversary of the 1917 revolution. Few today would however claim the I.R.A was Stalinst or die-hard Communist in its ideology. "I am not a Nazi. I am not even Pro German. I am an Irishman fighting for the independence of Ireland. The British have been our Enemies for hundreds of years. They are the enemy of Germany today. If it suits Germany to give us help to achieve independence, I am willing to accept it, but no more, and there must be no strings attached." Irish Times Sunday 6th June 1958It is clear from the above quote that Russell was not trying to establish a Nazi puppet state in Ireland. Russell set back for Ireland with Frank Ryan aboard a German U-boat in 1940 but died of a perforated ulcer on the way. The U- boat returned to Germany with Ryan aboard. Frank Ryan was a republican and anti-fascist who had fought on the republican side in the Spanish Civil War. During the recent controversy around Sean Russell, Ryan has also been cited as a NAZI collaborator. Alot of unsubstantiated rubbish has been written about Ryan on the internet recently including claims that he was incharge of transporting Polish Jews to Auschwitz by rail. Such allegations are entirely fictional and are not accompanied by any historical proof. Ryan was captured by the Italian fascist "Black Arrows" tank unit during the Spanish Civil War, he was courtmartialled and sentenced to death. "Upon his return Ryan was placed on the road in view of the Prisoners and, with bayonet prods, ordered to give the fascist salute. He refused whereupon an officer lined up a firing squad in front of him. Still he refused. Ryan was placed in a truck and driven off." (Taken from _In Green and Red. The Lives of Frank Ryan_ by Adrian Hoar.) Ryan's continued refusal to give the salute while in captivity earned him repeated beatings and punishments. These are hardly the actions of a Nazi sympathiser. Ryan was kept under sentence of death in a Spanish prison until released into German custody through the endeavours of Nazi diplomats. Ryan did not request such diplomacy on his behalf and was unaware of its existence. Ryan was brought to Germany but after two years of imprisonment his health was very poor. He was almost completely deaf and spent alot of his time in cafes so that people could warn him when the air raid sirens were sounded. He was to suffer from a stroke, pneumonia, blackouts and an apoplectic fit. The Nazis frequently asked Ryan his opinions on Irish Affairs North and south. Ryan was a supporter of De Valera's neutrality policy and counseled the Germans according to this. Ryan remained under suspicion and investigation from the Gestapo. Ryan kept his opinions about his Nazi saviours mostly to himself and declined the opportunity to broadcast German propoganda to Ireland by Radio. He once commented to Francis Stewart while in Germany "All this is not my work and I must not become too involved." Ryan agreed with some reluctence to speak to Irish prisioners about forming an Irish Brigade amongst British Army P.O.W.s in Germany as Roger Casement had done in 1916. It was insisted that this would only fight for the Germans if the Irish Free State was invaded by the British and/or the American armies which was a real possibility. However after his initial contact with the prisioners Ryan refused to have anything further to do with the Idea. The extent of Ryan's actual participation in this venture is not certain. Red Cushing, an Irish P.O.W. who says he knew Ryan and who later wrote his experiences in a book _Soldier for Hire_ claims that in Lamsdorf P.O.W camp the Naz's used a speaker imitating Ryan to deliver a "ranting address in a brogue thick enough to plant potatoes in." Cushing later challenged the imposter. (Red Cushing - _Soldier for Hire_) According to Francis Stewart (one of Ryan's companions in Germany) Ryan had a "hate" for the regime. "He detested the arrogance and contempt shown by officials towards foreigners and even toward their own people.... To survive however he had to hide his real attitute towards most officials. He did not like Veensenmayer but played along in the hope that some day he would return to Ireland." (Irish Times 11 april 1975) Ryan lived in relative comfort and claimed he got "everything I ask for - except a deportation Ticket." (In _Red and Green the lives of Frank Ryan_ by Adrain Hoar). At this stage ryan was refusing to do much more than advise the Germans on how best to maintain Irish neutrality. He died in a hospital in Loschwitz on June 10 1944. His friend Francis Stewart stated "Never to the day of his death abondoned his beliefs. He rejoyced at the Red Army victory At Stalingrad." (Irish Times 11 Aprill 1945) I am not a racist or a neo-nazi sympathiser. I have campaigned for refugee and immigrant's rights, and for a No vote in the citizenship referendum. I am saddened that people will launch attacks on both Ryan and Russell without doing any research. It seems a tabloid approach toward republican history is taking place where by people can say anything to descredit republicans without proving it. I think Russell was wrong to seek German aid and was equally stupid in launching his bombing campaign in England in the 1930's. He was incredibly short sighted in sticking to the "Englands difficulty /..." philosophy because it meant he had to ally himself with imperialists and warmongers far worse than the British military. However Russell himself was not a Nazi. (Despite the fact that the racists on the stormfront website try to claim him as one. without any proof!) He was not trying to set up a Nazi state in Ireland and did not know about the holocaust. The world public only found out about it in 1945. Had he been less of a physical force man and more of a republican idealist Russell might not have associated himself with such racists, imperialists, warcriminals and mass murders. Finally, I wonder how much research those who attacked the statue actually did on Russell and his Nazi connections? Did they pour over history books and documents to inform themselves of the fact? Or did they take the Irish Independent's word for it? Do they know Ghandhi was once described by the British as a Nazi sympathiser? I can't help thinking the anti-fascists who attacked his statue were a lot like Russell himself. Their aims and ideology were noble, they were ignorant of the full facts, and their methods were questionable and shortsighted. Is míse Pádraig Ó Ruairc |
Earlier this month a group of 
printable version
Digg this
del.icio.us
Furl
Reddit
Technorati
Facebook
Gab
Twitter
|
View Comments Titles Only
save preference
Comments (151 of 151)
Jump To Comment: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151I find this story really suspicious. I know of no genuine anti-fascist organisation that would carry out this attack. Lets look at the possible suspects:
Anti-Fascist Action, the most militant group, is made up mainly of former members of Red Action or current members of Working Class Action . They have a deserved reputation for physically confronting racists/fascists but they have never been known to engage in this sort of 'symbolic' attack. Also their political sympathies are with radical republicanism so they would be unlikely to choose Russel's statue as a target.
Residents Against Racism are the main campaigning anti-racist group in Dublin, the main focus of their work being helping individual asylum seekers and combatting racism through education and information campaigns. They dont generally engage in direct action and their leading members are leftists who have enough on their plate rather than attacking a long dead republican's statue.
SWP/Anti Nazi Leage/Civil Rights Movement etc. The SWP fronts have only one purpose: recruitment, so they don't engage in any serious activity especially direct actions of any sort.
So where does this leave us: serious (and not so serious) anti-fascist groups are very unlikely to have attacked the statue and anyway most would never dream of doing so. It was reported in the right-wing Indo which loves to link SF/republicans with fascism. Does anyone else smell a rat?
Personally, I have little sympathy for Russel or SF for that matter but Im not going to fall for this scam. Any objective historian will tell you Russel was'nt a fascist, just a narrow nationalist who was willing to work with anyone, including the Nazi regime, to unite Ireland. Same as the Bretons who threw in their lot with the genocidal Nazi in the vain hope of winning freedom from France. I have no sympathies for them (Im a Partisan fan) but I know my history. So Russel was anything but a role model but somehow I dont believe that the Indo and the various Young PD types etc are on our side when we take on latter day fascists/racists. Before you start on about Russel and Provo fascism, ask yourself this: were you out campaigning against the Racist Referendum last year, have you taken on the racist thugs in your area. I was and I have.
Congratulations to the last two posters, Nazi Hunter and Peadar o Ruairc for two intelligent pieces were people use their intellect rather than talk pious waffle. Peadar actually took the trouble to research what he talking about.
I definitely agree with what Nazi Hunter is saying about it being suspicious. I am of the opinion it is linked to the equally suspicious attacks on Islandbridge and the Jewish museum. I dont actually believe this attack was the work of anti-facists at all.
Although the assertion that the Russell statue was defaced by 'anti-fascists' has been made in the press, we should look at the source of these assertions. Henry McDonald, that bloated ex-Stalinist windbag who has never met an imperialist he doesn't feel a need to suck up to, Kevin Myers--need I say more?--and a loyalist hack from the Belfast Telegraph are the most prominent cheerleaders for the action, and even their fans would admit that they have an agenda here. I think it extremely unlikely that this was the work of 'anti-fascists.'
I believe the culprits who vandalised island bridge and the jewish cemetery on the same night, may be the very same ones who attacked this statue. Some one with a very definite agenda is working here. The agenda is to portray irish separatists as nazis.
Dublins not that big a place, yet noone seems to know the group that done it.
Maybe they should try robbing banks.
Herr Russell's aims and ideology were were ignoble. The AF vandals are fully aware of the full facts about Nazism and its insidious supporters in Ireland. And I don't want to hear any of this crap about Russell only working with Cannaris of the Abwehr who were really an conspiracy against Nazism. There's no good Nazis or bad Nazis. They're all rotten.
And all brits are the same too then.
There is no such thing as a good one.
To suggest a similarity of all nazis and all brits is dishonest.
Sounds to me like youve a certain amount of inside knowledge about the people who done this. The AF vandals, as you call them, are fully aware eh ? I wonder how aware they are of how angry many republicans are about this ?
Perhaps you could tell them when you see them.
The most ridiculous thing about this entire episode is whats happening in the present. The supporters of this desecration supposedly felt it necessary because of sean russells meeting with a murderous regime 65 years ago.
Just over a year ago Gerry Adams and Bertie Ahern met at Hillsboro castle with George Bush. As the very American bombers which are slaughtering Iraqi civilians were being armed and revved up on Irish tarmac, the leaders of so called republicanism were shaking hands and smiling with a war criminal in THIS country.
Tony Blair, another war criminal whose murderous forces occupy the ground were Im standing right now was another player in the backslapping fest which took place in this country as Iraq burned.
Irelands collaboration in this mass slaughter and illegal occupation stinks to high heaven, and they attack the statue of a man who sought german arms to overthrow a bigoted, hateful regime over 60 years ago.
Wankers.
And they accuse republicans like myself of living in the past ?
And these good socialists have now managed to secure the support of Kevin Myers, Henry McDonald and Eilis OHanlon, their official cheerleaders in Irelands sick media. Good men, the Nazis must be crapping themselves now because of this.
the piece today in the paper today had the title "Anti facist group say leave statue as it is", inferring another commique had been sent , but didn't refer to any such thing in the text... have any other paper been sent press releases or just did they rewrite the story from them?
It wasn't afa - they are rather pro-republican in outlook and they haven't released any statement on their website or on indymedia, which they normally do, even for extra-legal activities.
It couldn't have been a nazi outfit as they are far from capable of such a co-ordinated attack. Sticking up a few stickers in the wee hours is the limit of their ambition.
It wasn't anarchists - Russel is an irrelevance to them.
So this rules out all of the conceivable groups that might be believed to have carried out extra-legal actions. So who dunnit? Unfortunately fat ex-stalinists hacks wouldn't be able to drag themselves out of bed to carry out an action in the wee hours. It leaves one to think that it most probably was blue-shirters within the security services - cops or army. Nobody else has the ability or the motivation for doing this.
Henry McDonald, whose photo in the Observer was taken twenty years or so ago before he became clinically depressed and started eating Chinese every night and drinking pints with Lord Kookoo into the wee hours, was running short of self-righteous gossip for his Sunday column. Moreover, he was pissed off that the monthly check from the US 'fund for the support of lapdog journalists' had not yet come through. He stole his daughter's lunch money, plus the bonus she had earned acting in the BBC 'true-life' depiction of the events at Holy Cross, and jumped on the last bus to Dublin, where he would call upon his good friend and fellow Stalinist-cum Bush lackey Eoghan Harris, or Kevin Myers, to borrow a few quid to hold him over. Myers turned him away, telling Henry to fuck off as he was entertaining some VERY important company in town visiting the American embassy and couldn't be bothered with riff raff from the North, even one committed heart-and-soul to the Bush project for democratizing the world through torture and generous amounts of napalm. Harris, on the other hand, was willing to lend Henry the dosh on condition that he put on the tea and help him sober up for his first major paramilitary adventure in many years (two, to be exact; the last being the firebombing of a houseful of uppity taigs in north Belfast under the command of an Egyptian-born loyalist: who says Harris is a bigot?). After a quick phone call to Prioinsas De Rossa, the two of them hopped into a cab and picked up the gear, and then on to Fairview, where following a brief tactical delay to allow Harris to piss all over his left shoe, Henry scaled the statue, feeling young, vibrant, self-righteous again (the latter quality beign nothing new to him). The rest is history.
The next morning, hung over but still feeling the glow of his previous night's work, McDonald sent a press release to himself and a few friends in which, to deflect attention, he attributed the destruction to ANTI fascists. "That should throw them off the trail," he told himself. "Now where is that fucking check?"
Have people ruled out that perhaps the 'culprits' were just a bunch of drunk teenagers with nothing better to do on an early morning?
I mean, in all fairness, that was one ugly statue.
"Jaysus Steve, wouldnt it be mad if your man had no head?"
"Haha Tony! That's a deadly idea.!"
Maybe a bunch of the lads thought it would be a deadly buzz to get a coule of cans, a few spliffs, a chain, hammer and spend a good half hour hacking away at it...
ha! Deadly buzz!
3 highly unusual actions in the one night. I'd also guess that it takes a fair bit of persistence and preparation to take the head off a statue. Do you reckon the drunken lads then started a conspiracy to blame anti-fascists????
I wonder were these the same drunks which targeted islandbridge with pro-republican graffiti, and then sprayed the Jewish museum with swastikas. The Indo etc went wild with that story, inferring republicans were pro Nazi. Now this mysterious occurence, complete with statement.
They are bollocking about big style. Theres an agenda here, but it aint an Anti facist though.
Maybe it would be helpful if the groups who didnt do it publicly clarified their stance on this activity. The culprits would be easier tracked down maybe.
Can't believe some of you are so vacuous as to blame the right-wing for this.
Admit it, it's just like Justin Barrett getting slapped at UCD - some trigger-happy gobshites on the far-left have made you intellectual and cosmopolitan lefties look like marauding apes once again.
Intellectual and cosmopolitan lefty !!!!! (bejaysus)
As a "dissident" republican from what such people would refer to as a "redneck" area of the border thats the first time EVER, Ive been referred to in such a manner. In fact Ill probably never be again so thank you. That doesnt happen very often.
It was zionists who have beheaded the statue.The recent crimes are so suspecious that no other group has the motivation to carry them out. Jewish groups hate Ireland not only for our neutrality in ww2 but the popular support for the palistinians and nothong is more evident to this then what has been said in the media.
The same ones who " vandailise" their own synagogues to gain maximum publicity , have beheaded the statue of Russell. Not even the afa are that stupid to commit such an act. The only political motivation comes not from the Irish left or right but from over zealous IRISH zionists!
The same people who descreted their own synagogues just like other "hate crime " hoaxes across france. The suspecion is paramount. Their is no political group in Ireland so arrogant as to think they could away with it.
The same descretion of ww2 graves by jewish hoaxers happened in france also . No one else would get away with such a juvunile crime of "hate".
This thread lasted a full 12 hours before the Jews were blamed.
Is this an IndyMedia record?
All politicians in the south feel threatned by the electoral success of Sinn Fein. The rush to blame Sinn Fein on the basis of them responsible for almost every conceiveable ill in Irish and norhtern society is a wonder to behold. Labeling them facists or Nazis is simply another manifestation of this trend. And is equally without credibility. The result of all this "sound and fury signifying nothing" will be an even more resounding victory in the North by Sinn Fein. Their political opponents would do better to get their own house in order than go around spreading unfounded accusations.
As for Jews being responsible this is obviously another idiotic accusation. The knee-jerk response of "Noel" is of course equally idiotic!
Sean Russell is nothing but a Quisling and a collaborator with a hideous fascist regime.
Those who attacked the statue deserve to be commended as that statue was an embarrasement to the city. There should not be a replacement built, if there is it should be demolished.
The press release issued by the people who undertook that action I thought was eloquent and informed too. They knew their history.
Ignorance is never an excuse, if Russell was unaware of the Nazi's plan for Europe then that hardly excuses the cretin. I read in the Ian Kershaw biography that Hitler had tentative invasion plans for Irealnd and was going to establish a concentration camp in Connemara.
There is an overlap between fascism and nazism. Fascism and it's dupes who facilitate it should always be oppossed.
Britain had concentration camps in this country. It was responsible for a holocaust here also, one reason why so many Irish hated the British regime in this country.
.
The BIGOTED Stormont regime which Russell sought to overthrow was akin to facism. It sponsored pogroms throughout the 20s and 30s. Im sure if anyone else had offered him arms to put an end to that abomination of a state hed have went there instead.
While some people have diagrreed wiyh Russell, they understand his motives and absolute commitment to his country. As far as I can see those who hate him do so because he fought against Britain.
mr x is obviously a lunatic or a far-right troll or both. any socialist or republican worth their salt will add their condemnation against those who targeted the jewish memorials recently--any other response feeds right into the hands of the right. the notion that it was self-inflicted is straight out of mein kampf, and there should be no room for it on indymedia. send him to the independent--if he was literate, he could get paid work.
Kevin Briers, Eoghan Barris and Ruth Dudley Sedgewards in drunken attack on statue
After an evening swilling wine at Rolly's Bistro in Ballsbridge, three prominent journalists were seen galavanting in Fairview Park, roaring incomprehensible maledictions that included words like "egregious", "quislings", "mendacity", "onimatopoeia", "soliloquy" and "RTÉ".
Having procured a hack-saw from a distant cousing who was, much to the embarrassment of the Sedgewards family, involved in "some sort of primitive trade...carpentry, I think he called it", the envenomed historian guillotined the static, and in the end rather inoccuous, object of her vituperation (this was another of the words they used).
They were then joined by Eilish O'Hanratty, another journalist of equally bilious disposition, who took a hatchet to the beleagured Russell's arm.
All three sat up that night celebrating their foray into armed struggle with Champagne back in Briers' house, O'Hanratty writing up her press release for the following morning, and ther others their responses, using words like: "egregious", "quislings", "mendacity", "onimatopoeia", "soliloquy" and "RTÉ".
"mr x is obviously a lunatic or a far-right troll"
Correct on both scores, my friend. From looking at the boneheads' boards, we find that they have indeed blamed the 'zionists' for the recent spate of curious acts of vandalism.
The Zionists were also responsible for the 'holohoax' in their small and dull minds.
and i'll call them up and see if anything indicates 'anti-fascists apart from an anonymous e-mail. I reckon that's all that this is based on.
My pet theory - kids did it - someone else claimed responsibility to blacken mary lou and gang with the usual mickey mcdo well line (see related link) and used antifa as a flag of convenience (false flag) which had the added bonus of blackening the AFA name. So who wrote the statement? Political Activists but not left ones? Creepy - Crawlies? Someone who realses anniversaries (esp 100 year ones) can bring big support to Irish Republicans?
"mr x is a lunatic or far-right troll or both".
This talk appears on this site regularly, and is usually a far-left cover for putting down any point of view which doesn't agree with theirs.
Find a more original argument.
And to our dissident republican friend from the redneck area, I'm sure you and your organisation still have the same Catholic nationalist principles as yesteryear? Not Marxist, by any stretch, I'd bet?
have you not got any brain at all, derek? mr x's problem is not that he diverges from some conformist left-wing hymn sheet. its that he floats palpably anti-semitic consipiracy theories which are based on nothing but his own prejudices. join him if you like, but leave the rest of us alone. redneck, cosmopolitan, whatever--barry's got more sense in his little toe than you could ever muster. now go back to the indo and your latte. or is it the telegraph? or the new york times?
....I still think it was the lads..so there ya go!
Because Im from a rural area perhaps, or because Derek knows eff all about republicanism. Perhaps he could name a truly republican organisation which espoused catholic nationalism.
How could culchie northeners have Marxist principles, preposterous !!!. Despite me having posted on this board in support of everyone from the Baader Meinhof to Hugo Chavez.
Wasnt too long back he called me cosmopolitan trendy lefty. Dereks a little confused methinks. Maybe he should take interesteds advice and go and lie down.
I don't suppose Russell was guiulty of anything except for myopia BUT sympathy for Nazi Germany was pretty widespread at the time among the Republican Movement e.g. Patterson's book Politics of Illusions reports on leftist IRA prisoners being somewhat peeved at their colleagues happily plotting the course of the Germany Armed Forces through the Soviet Union on maps you got with the papers. Also Ryan's communist afilliations would not preclude him from working with Nazi Germany it wasn't unknown for such to do that at the time of the Nazi-Soviet Pact.
Does anyone know anything about the small nazi outfit un-Blueshirt affiliated which was hardline republican really big into Gaelic, had a Gaelic name which I cannot remember, operated here during the 1940s and held a mock "invasion" of the North (bit like Peter Robinsons' effort) ..TG4 had a documentary about this....
BTW Barry I think the person you are responding to was having a go at you for NOT being a traditional Catholic nationalist and being corrupted by Marxists...that is the far-right line on republicanism.
"0Does anyone know anything about the small nazi outfit un-Blueshirt affiliated which was hardline republican really big into Gaelic, had a Gaelic name which I cannot remember, operated here during the 1940s and held a mock "invasion" of the North (bit like Peter Robinsons' effort) ..TG4 had a documentary about this...."
i think your talking about saor uldha, a splinter group thats tactics were a pre runner to the border campaign but not familiar with nazi sympathies if it's the same organisation, could you expand on this.
You are probably thinking of Ailtirí na hAiséirí (literally: The architects of the Resurrection/Rising) also known simply as Aiséirí. It was led by a chap called Gearoid Ó Cuinneagáin from Belfast, but based in Dublin. His brother was Joe, an IRA leader of the time. TnaG had a programme about it - utlra Catholic, ultra Nationalist, certainly fascist. Didn't have a military wing but would certainly have been into direct action. One or two members were elected as local councillors before it faded away in the 50s.
By the way: Russell's statue was a blot on the landscape. Whatever way you look at it he was a collaborator with the Nazis. Shame on all true socialists that it was left there unharmed for so long.
Presumably then you believe that any memorial to Frank Ryan should be desecrated also ? If not why not.
Any true socialist worth his/her salt acknowledges the hateful regime Russel sought to overthrow. if Stalin had offered him armaments hed have gone there instead.
Exactly how did Russell collaborate ? By stabbing gallant little England in the back ?
Little England, despite our recent troubles, stood between us and the Nazis. Hitler seemed prepared to cut a deal to preserve the British Empire, he'd have had little time for the wasters on the Celtic fringe.
Will the same heroes who took exception to Russell smash up the restaurant in Chatham Street named in honour of the bloody murder Mao - whose death toll makes Hitler appear like a novice?. Or go around ripping CCCP tee shirts off people in memory of the victims of Lenin and Stalin? Or rip down the Union Jack wherever they see one in memory of the genocides of the Irish people by the Tudors, Cromwell and the Famine?
"Little England, despite our recent troubles, stood between us and the Nazis."
I can't believe the historical elisions inherent in this remark!
Little England colonised this country. Little England Partitioned it. Little England STILL has more of its soldiers stationed here than in ANY country worldwide including Iraq.
Little England was a Nazi regime and it is notable that a great number of its aristocracy sympathised with Hitler. Don't hear any of the West Englanders moaning about that now, do we?
If Hitler had invaded Ireland Sean Russell would have been forefont to the resistance against him.
Those who collaborated with Britain throughout the decades would simply have found new masters to suck up to and betray their country and its patriots to. Once a collaborator, always a collaborator. Its in the genes.
is that that those who collaborated with the British were the Irish people on both sides of the border who served in the British Army, RAF and RN.
You deride them as collaborators, yet praise Russell - but which were the most effective at holding back the Nazi machine?
Russell was a member of the Dublin Brigade that beat the Irish fascists off the streets. No-one needs to argue for his anti-fascist credentials.
So who is the mysterious 'Anti-Fascist' / Stalinist group helping themselves to vandalism?
Sean Russell died in early 1940. He wasnt in much of a position to hold anyone back. Also Hitler never attempted to invade Ireland. Only our aggressive imperialist British neighbour did that one, hence Russell wanting them removed, as do I.
l think youll find the Americans, Russians and Titos partisans stopped Hitler. He kicked the shite clean out of the Brits. They didnt win the war.
Not to change focus bu people should also remember Sean South, he was a member of an anti semitic group. He should certainly be cast aside as a republican/nationalist icon.
Whereas I agree with you that Hitler kicked the shite out of the Brits, I do not agree that the yanks had much to do with the ending of the war in Europe.
The Russians had already beaten the Nazis and had them on the run by the time the Brits and Yanks decided it was safe enough for them to invade Europe. It was safe because the Russians were creaming the Nazis in the east and Hitler had to drastically deplete his forces in Europe to avoid being routed completely.
The whingeing Yanks and Brits should be on their knees every day to thank Mother Russia who paid an enormous blood sacrifice for their freedom.
Why argue over who won the war. It wasn't any of us. People should focus on what should be done now. Perhaps suggest a new memorial. A FG councillor suggestted Phil Lynnott or Maureen Potter, i can't think of worse suggestions. It would set a bad precedence, in a few years time we could have a memorial to Bono. Any suggestions anybody?
Id be quite happy to see a memorial to him next week frankly, the weirdo.
This site is owned by the National Graves Association and is dedicated to IRA C/S Russell. That will continue to be the case. This memorial will be replaced and I for one will be contributing to its replacement, as well as doing my damndest to find out who desecrated a republican martyrs memorial.
I am not saying anything against you donating towards the statue and if the NGA decide to replace the Russell statue thats their perogative. I was asking people for their suggestions as to what they would like. Also what is your opinion of the anti semitic Sean South?
Leave the existing one as it is and rechristen it P. O'Neill.
How about a memorial to the Northern Bank robbers, whoever they are
I can't remember the Poles or Czechs or East Germans thanking Stalin for his particular brand of freedom.
As for Hitler 'kicking the shite' out of the Brits.
Ask the Luftwaffe whether the RAF had the shite kicked out of them during the Battle of Britain.
A statue to the many brave Irishmen who died fighting the Nazis would be much more appropriate.
> Russell was a member of the Dublin
> Brigade that beat the Irish fascists off the
> streets. No-one needs to argue for his anti-
> fascist credentials.
Yes, because are we all know, Irish fascists
have been an even bigger threat to mankind
than the SS, concentration camps,
Wehrmacht, Luftwafte and concentration
camps. Forget the ash of six million Jews,
gypsies and homosexuals; someone
might have flyposted a lamppost in
Fairview, and where we would we be all
then?
Thank god Russell kept a sense of
perspective on things and targetted the
real threat.
Ní fheicimid a leithéid arís.
P.
Paul, do us a favour and find out something about the history of the period before you start spouting nonsense. The Irish fascist - the Blueshirts - were a real threat and the IRA played its part in making sure that they didn't come to power in the same manner as the fascists in Italy and Germany.
Secondly, do you think that Russell was clairvoyant? The killings of which you speak had not taken place yet. Besides, Russell as an Irish republican was hardly likely to see any moral superiority in the British who were responsible for near genoicide here in the 16th, 17th and 19th centuries (genocide in the sense of between 15 and 30% of the population on three separate occasions), not to mention all of their other contributions to Irish civilisation.
Mr Historian, of course, you're entirely right. After all, up until 1940, Hitler was still making his famous "all my best friends are yids, ovey!" speechs, and appearing on stage every night in his popular burlesque routine with Hymie Zillvesky.
Only a _mind-reading time-travelling alien_ (which Sean Russell was not, 'm sure, being a good Catholic) could have suspected anything about Mr. Hitler at all at all.
And of course, anything perfidious Albion does excuses the Irish, since we're mere children not given to any weighing up of moral issues. So they allow 3 million Irish to die of starvation in the 19th century, so it's only fair game for Russell and his comrades to indulge in antics that give succour to those who want to murder 6 million in ovens. As long as it's one in the eye for them Brits, eh?
I have a great idea for a sequel to "Independence Day", called "Independence Day 2: Not If It's Up To Use, Me Bucko!" in which Sean Russell (played by Macauley Culkin) helps the aliens conquer and destroy Earth, as long as they're _really_ mean to the Brits beforeland.
No, you're right; far better that Russell concentrated on the likes of the Blueshirts (whose plans for the Irish Holocaust were well advanced by that stage) and not mind the antics of those amateurs on the continent (who by now are a mere footnote in history).
P.
You will have heard about the Wannsee Conference, January 20 1942? That was when the Nazis decided on the extermination of the Jews. Sean Russell died in 1940 at which stage to most people's minds there was no moral difference between the Germans and the Brits and indeed, Irish people had obvious reasons for not being supportive of the latter. You may also recall the Stalin Hitler Pact? 1939 which lasted until the German invasion of the USSR in June 1941. Does that make Stalin morally culpable in the Holcaust as well?
I agree with Mr. Historian. Stalin had his own holocaust to worry about
..I guess that you've not actually passed a history exam after junior cert....
Hitler was more than explicit about his 'final solution' long before the death of the rat Russell. Not that you'd be aware of this, as its rarely mentioned in APRN, or indeed the Beano, which appear to be your main historical references. But recent debates in real newspapers have brought up a speech he made in 1939, reported in the Irish Times, which was quite explicit. A protestant newspaper,of course,but one would have thought that he might have heard something about it if he was intent of collaborating with this pack of scumbags.....
Not that anyone who had read Mein Kampf would have been under any illusions. But hey,maybe he was just a bit simple like yerself, eh?
For the final time, the Nazis did no decide to exterminate every European Jew at Wannsee, Hitler had already made that decision. previously...Wannsee was effectively the SS, in the form of Heydrich,informing the other arms of the Nazi state of that decision, coupled with the fact that henceforth, the SS would be in charge of dealing with the Judische Frage....you can try to make excuses for that scumbag Russell as much as you want but they won't work.
The successful, and hence generally uncondemned, British colonial genocide in
Australia and North America, included the following incident: "[The] final
extermination [of the Tasmanians] was a large-scale event, undertaken with
the cooperation of the military and judiciary ... Soldiers of the Fortieth
Regiment drove the natives between two great rock formations, shot all the
men and dragged the women and children out of fissures in the rocks to
knock their brains out" (Moorehead, The Fatal Impact).
Hitler's unsuccessful project was based on, and copied from, the British
method: "The talk about the peaceful economic conquest of the world was
possibly the greatest nonsense which has ever been exalted to be a guiding
principle of state policy. ... England [is] the striking refutation of
this theory; for no people has ever with greater brutality better prepared
its economic conquests with the sword, and later ruthlessly defended them,
than the English nation."
Britain was Hitler's accomplice and supporter until it turned on him in
late 1939 when it felt its imperial pre-eminence was threatened by the
ambitions of its former friend. (It was mistaken in this, as indicated by
approving statements such as the above from Mein Kampf.) After seeing off
the British in Europe, Hitler was eventually defeated by his intended
victims in Eastern Europe - Russians and others who, unlike the native
populations of Australia and North America, understood modern warfare.
"you can try to make excuses for that scumbag Russell as much as you want but they won't work"
Yeah right. I think we now know who the "scumbag" is.
The historical record if you are interested enough to check, which I seriously doubt, will show conclusively that Russell had no sympathy with fascist ideology and angrily rebuffed attempts to influence him in that regard. The statue was NOT attacked by anti-fascists but by a bunch of twerps operating to a Sunday Indo agenda.
Have the group who attacked the monument to republicans of the 1940s got the nerve to come out into the open and debate the issue with others including local republicans? I doubt it and for this simple reason- They are NOT an anti fascist group at all. It will transpire that they are people in league with certain newspaper columnists in Dublin with a distinct Northern connection. Anti-provo ex-Stickies! the person earlier in this thread who mentioned 'bloated Stalinists' was not too far off the mark. They are gutless wonders!!!!
Ive challenged them on over a dozen occasions on this board to defend their actions and identify their group. I believe your analysis is spot on on this one. I also believe they are the same people who attacked Islandbridge and the Jewish museum simultaneously to blacken republicans as Nazis as well.
The scumbags who attacked Sean Russells statue are as anti-fascist as Johnny Adair. As another commentator pointed out the attack was probably done to get media attention for the idiotic west-Brit/loyalist lie that republicans equal fascists as well as having a side bonus in potentially smearing the pro-republican AFA with the blame. All the evidence points to a sneaky right wing put-up job on this one and I doubt we will ever get the real culprits putting their hands up.
Again the evidence that Sean Russell was pro-nazi is based on sleazy manipulation of the truth., by which logic the British collaboration dwarfed any by the IRA, i.e;
· Arms embargo actively pursued by Britain against Spanish Republic 1936-38 while Franco armed to teeth by Italy and Gertmany
· Brit/French sponsored Nazi carve-up of Czechoslovakia 1938,
· Rump Czechoslovakia occupied by Nazis -March 1938
All this can be viewed as collaboration with Hitler and their results brought death to millions but of course Sean Russell’s U-Boat ride home from Germany is deemed much more worthy of screaming about to those furlock tuggers still amongst us.
Since we can pretty much rule out any left wing groups or republicans from this, we are left with the assumption that it was the cops wot dunnit. Think about it. The gardai are the most anti-republican organisation in the country and have been since their inception. They have a secret wing (special branch) and this is exactly the sort of thing that they must get up to - especially at a time when their boss McDowell has been calling the shinners fascists in the Dail. They have a huge amount of faith in the state and it must really piss them off to see state monuments to Republicans who they consider to be criminal scum.
On the other hand, the people who are blindly defending Russel are very short-sighted. Whatever else the man may have done, you should recognise the fact that looking for help from Hitler was the stupidest thing imaginable. In fact this is a perfect illustration of the fact that 'my enemy's enemy is not always my friend'.
Not everyone who defends Russell from the charge of being pro-Nazi is necessarily "blindly defending" him. Many republicans disagree with many of his policies and decisions at that time but defend him as a republican and former IRA Chief of Staff. Nobody should be "blindly defended" but historiacl accuracy is also important and calumny is wrong.
Russell got no aid from the Nazis at all. It was a failure. He is known to have visited the Soviet Union to get arms for the IRA. Does this make him a Stalinist as well as a Fascist? It can't be both!
I am not blindly defending Russell. I am simply mindful that the man died at sea, unable to explain, defend or renounce his actions.
I am also mindful as a resident of the occupied part of this island that the man lost his life in an attempt to provide people such as myself with a better one.
I would remind people again of the regime Russell was so desperate to bring an end to. 25 years after his death my own parents were seeking employment here. Job advertisemants routinely carried the warning "NO ROMAN CATHOLIC NEED APPLY". Facist B-Specials ruled the lanes and highways, and crushed any opposition to the bigoted militaristic, one party regime. Kristalnachts, pogroms and in Russells time ethnic cleansing were part of the Northern way of life. It has been estimated 10% of the northern nationalist population were driven from the 6 counties in the 1921-24 period alone.
Therefore the least I can do is seek to defend the mans character from the pro-brits and trendies who have been attacking it.
Barry, you outdo urself. An excellent summation of many of my own feelings on the matter but even better coming from you as a Northerner. I feel that you have dealt adequately with the codology of the Fairview vandals and their pseudo 'anti-fascist' imposters on this site and elsewhere. So much so that I will say no more on this matter. Sin e.
I totally agree with Barry on this one. I also believe dissident republicans allied to the 32 County Sovereignty Movement were responsible for the vandalism of the War Memorial Monument and the Jewish Museum. I think they beheaded Sean Russell to provoke just such a debate as we are now having.
Barry wrote: "Ive challenged them on over a dozen occasions on this board to defend their actions and identify their group. I believe your analysis is spot on on this one. I also believe they are the same people who attacked Islandbridge and the Jewish museum simultaneously to blacken republicans as Nazis as well.
As a "dissident" republican and a member of the 32csm I would strongly advise you to go and have a rethink about what you just said, as it is absolutely ridiculous.
I have spoken to 32csm members in Dublin about the attack on Islandbridge and the Jewish museum and they are none too happy about it I can assure you. I would not like to be in the shoes of the culprits should they be identified.
I believe those simultaneous acts of vandalism were carried out simply to blacken the movement as nazis. This attack on Sean Russell again tried to blacken an extremely dedicated republican as the same.
I will assume that remark was a result of gullibility rather than malice.
Garda intelligence suggests that members of 32csm were responsible for the vandalism. They said the poor handwriting and frequent spelling mistakes clearly pointed in the direction of dissident republicans.
Continu...Conaneu...Caontinu...Cantaneuity no Compromise
if you are looking for irish fascists then dont forget the 1930's when FG/Blueshirts organised a mussolini style march on dublin.
hers some gems from FG TDs:
"Mr. Belton: I wish we had a Hitler here." Dail, 25/7/1935
"The Minister gave extracts from various laws on the Continent, but he carefully refrained from drawing attention to the fact that the Blackshirts were victorious in Italy and that the Hitler Shirts were victorious in Germany, as, assuredly, in spite of this Bill and in spite of the Public Safety Act, the Blueshirts will be victorious in the Irish Free State. "
John Costello 28/2/1934
"Dr. O'Higgins: I should like it to be more intelligible. However, Mussolini, I think in the opinion of all is a very great man. He has fulfilled a number [1932] of functions and held a number of positions during his life" Dail 28/5/1935
"As an Irishman and as a Catholic—a humble one, I must say—I will oppose this Bill, because I will not agree to the application of sanctions against Italy, who is going out to civilise and to Christianise a pagan race. I sincerely hope that the Italian race, and Mussolini, the great leader of the Italian people, and defender of our faith in Italy, will be successful in this war." Mr Kent, Dail (supporting Mussolinis invasion of Ethiopia)
"Mr. Morrissey: A great many people in this country think Mussolini a most intelligent man, and probably a great many people think the same of Hitler." Dail 27/5/1937
"By our action here to-day we have curried no favour except the favour that will come from Communists, from Jews and Freemasons. We have alienated Christian Catholic support in this supposed Christian Catholic Chamber." Belton Dail 19 February, 1937 speaking on the Spanish Civil War (Non-Intervention) Bill, 1937
Yep RC, your quote from those scumbags tells me exactly whose hymnsheet youre singing from.
Good man, I hope you and your friends in Garda "intelligence" can congratulate yourselves on a job well done.
Has everyone failed to notice the anti Sinn Fein propaganda in ireand today. A couple of years ago there was none of this anti SF media now its everywhere. This is because alot of people voted for SF and they became a threat to power so as we've all seen in the last few years ireland is no longer the breakaway revoulutionary country it once was and the Gov. started a nice campaign against Sinn Fein by slatting them in the Herald and Indo. One story reported that it was odd Mary Lou was in Sinn Fein because see was educated.(does someone really need a Degree in Civil Engineering to be EDUCATED).surely growing up in 1960's ulster is enough education to know the real going's on of politics for the leaders. -------Anyway, countries have allies, irelands natural allies being non allies(enemy) of britain(france, spain, GERMANY). Irish leaders had been meeeting with the germans since 1916(gun running) so open your eyes, Russell was meetin Germans for political reasons. If the Nazi's get power, is everyone on the Gov. pay roll a Nazi?????NO
So if you look at it. The day the story broke Russell was a "Nazi collaborator" according to the papers. (Collaborating what , it was the mid 30's and every country had diplomatic relations with Germany)
He was head of the IRA so this is linked back to 'Sinn Fein' (the baddies) then junior ministers(the goodies) start talkin in the media saying they wont use public money to fix it, creating in peoples minds that SF must be wrong. OPEN YOUR EYES IT WAS THE GOVERNMENT.
Even though im only 20 i remember the ireland of my younger days when politicians where the IRA and Fianna Fail----'The Republican Party' incase you didn't know , wheren't badmouthing SF(the party FF come from) for political gain when we shud be supporting them due to the little problem of the North.
one more point.........:-
Everyone loves Michael Collins or Eamon DeValera but didn't Sean Russell do the same job as them?????????stop trying to cover up the past just cause its a little dirty
i wouldn't go as far as to say mr. x is racsist. to me . the ppl condemning his views think themselves to be cool and hip and peaceful.I personally dont agree with mr.x but to say he'd be in the same boat as ppl who deny the holocaust is a bit extreme. its possible it was zionists, its like counter insurgency, the U.S. wer goin to bomb one their own merchant ships and blame it on the Cubans so they could invade Cuba. so this sort of stuff go's on. The ppl who jumped back at mr.x are the same people who think
there cool cause they have no republican views and say stuff like...Dara Obrian on The Panel to Mary Lou....'Do we really want 1million angry unionists in this country' (dara's family from the 20's obviously didn't have relations cut off when this border was sudddenly dropped on ireland) or my friend who after we talked about the injustice of america ruling Iraq and moved onto the north he said 'who cares who rules people 150 miles away' Does everyone else she his contradiction. All these ppl are too smart for their own good, they think they know it all and their political views are determined by fashion....its cool to be a Bush Basher
over Iraq but not cool to show any interest in getting back your own country...maybe Michael Moore should make a film about the North and you never know, maybe, just maybe.
Is this the same IMC report that Sinn Fein denounced from the roof tops as Brit propaganda from highly unreliable pro-British sources working to a "securocrat agenda" ?
According to Gerry and Martin no-one should pay a blind bit of heed to it, so Im going to take their advice ,for once ,and ignore it. I suggest you do to.
It sounds suspiciously like youre trying to justify the garda special branch's policy of virtual internment by political show trial theyve been using against 32csm s membership since 1998. Of course $inn £ein supporters would never do such a thing, would they ?
Thats exactly why the Omagh massacre took place (virtually on Francie Mackeys doorstep), to facilitate the destruction of republican opposition to the Stormont Agreement and British dominion in Ireland. The public campaign of demonisation and Draconian legislation against true republicans was its intended outcome. Britain was the only beneficiary of this slaughter, and its agents are now implicated in it up to their necks.
Only this week it was revealed by a Garda branchman at the centre of the Omagh case, that his superior Garda officer, an individual with close ties to MI5 and British intelligence, had taken the decision to supply the car used in the bombing. The British Army in Omagh on that day were confined to base, under the orders of British intelligence. This senior branchman/ MI5 collaborator has since mysteriously done a flit from the states jurisdiction, as has Garda agent Paddy Dixon who worked under his supervision.
The collaboration between garda special-branch and MI5 is also evident in another mass murder, the Dublin Monaghan massacre. The outcome of that was identical to Omagh - Draconian legislation and demonisation of republicans facilitated by the deliberate mass-murder of Irish civilians. That the Branch are now implicated in two MI5 -sponsored mass murders over the last 30 years speaks volumes about the 26-counties much vaunted "independence"
Your attempts to smear republicans are every bit as pathetic and hypocritical as those who've been attempting to smear Sean Russell as being a supporter of mass murder.
At least, reality check, you have graduated from sniping sarcastically from the sidelines, to using sources as part of your smears. Unforunately your sources have thus far been a highly discredited report commissioned by the Brits (and rejected by $inn £ein), and rumors from Garda intelligence. You may as well have said "British intelligence" as thats who controls them apparently.
The 32csms opposition to British rule today is as steadfast and determined as Sean Russells was. Like those whove defamed Russell you have simply resorted to smear tactics to justify your own acceptance of British rule, and the demonisation of those opposed to it.
The Real IRA bomb that killed 29 people in Omagh was planted by terrorists.
John White's claims that he tipped off senior garda management about the Omagh bomb is only a side issue in light of the fact that the bomb was actually planted.
Who planted the bomb? The Real IRA did.
What happens when you plant a bomb and explode it in a busy town? People die.
Twenty nine people would never have died were it not for the existence of the Real IRA and their apologists in the 32 CSM.
Why is the Independent Monitoring Commission discredited? Because its work doesn't suit Sinn Fein or your arguments. Why aren't John White's claims, a man whose career has been destroyed and has a serious agenda, not discredited? Because they fit your argument like a glove and detract from the only pertinent issue:- that the criminals of the Real IRA and the Continuity IRA murdered 29 people.
Are we seriously to believe that there are no links between the Real IRA and the 32CSM?
Amazing what information won't pass between a husband and wife these days. 32CSM was set up by Bernadette Sands-McKevitt. The Real IRA's director of terrorism was her husband Michael McKevitt. Of course, his conviction was a miscarriage of justice like the jailing of every other murderous terrorist that you defend.
To talk of side issues is a bit rich coming from someone who has done their damndest to turn a thread about Sean Russell into one about Omagh.
Garda Whites claims are hardly irrelevant if the senior Branch operative he passed the intelligence to was himself an agent of British intelligence. It was this senior Branchman who took the decision to supply the bomb car. It appears that this individual was both trained by them and worked very closely with them. He has since conveniently left (fled?) the states jurisdiction.
It is hardly irrelevant if the plan to bomb Omagh in the first place originated and was driven from within MI5 , assisted as it seems by agents within Garda Special branch. Another MI5/Garda agent, Dave Rupert, who lived over the border not far from Omagh also fled Ireland only days later. He returned later only when he realised there was no suspicion against him.
As for Garda Whites "discredited" testimony, it appears some very powerful individuals went out of their way to discredit him. A criminal they pressured to give evidence against him was basically laughed out of court by the judge as the worst liar he ever came across.
When Whites legal team recently asked for a firearm and ammunition to be DNA tested to see who had actually handled it, it promptly "disappeared" from the states evidence locker. Just as Whites superior disappeared, as did Paddy Dixon, an agent at the centre of Omagh, and just like Omagh RUC stations operational log for Aug 15, 1998.
Amazingly all the files relating to Dublin/Monaghan have recently "disappeared" also from state custody. Of course absolutely no-one has the right to point any of this out, or to ask any questions of Garda Special branch and their cosy relationship with the murderous MI5, eh RC?
As for the "Independent" Monitoring Commission, its conclusions are based solely on intelligence from the same MI5 and their Garda Special Branch puppets who have a long history of corruption, sleaze and collaboration in the mass murder of innocent Irish civilians. Thats why their report is a fucking joke not worth the paper its written on.
As regards Michael McKevitt, neither he or his spouse have had any connection with 32csm for a number of years now. His conviction however solely on the word of MI5/garda agent Dave Rupert, who was paid approximately £1 million pounds to testify, and who described himself as a "money-whore" is hardly what I would call justice.
I have also defended SArmagh businessman Colm Murphy on this board for the last 6 months, (and was vilified for doing so) and it now appears that his case was most definitely a miscarriage of justice. Set up by Garda Special branch liars and perjurors and demonised as public enemy No 1, it will be proven that this man was wholly innocent of Omagh.
Your talk of defending "murderous terrorists" is utter hypocricy. The murderous terrorists of British intelligence have been slaughtering Irish civilians both sides of the border for decades in their dirty war of dirty tricks and black operations. It is now abundantly clear their agents within Garda special Branch actively colluded.
It is a great pity that Sean Russell was unsuccessful in his efforts to remove these scums masters from our nation. To hear him labelled a collaborator with a foreign power is an absolute travesty when one considers what the powers within the free state have been engaging in.
oops!
Are you suggesting its a false flag?
Our version of the Lavon affair?
Pardon my ignorance, but I dont know what that is.
But yes, I am convinced that Omagh was exactly that, a black operation/false flag initiated by British intelligence. The slow but steady release of information into the public domain is certainly pointing in that direction.
What was/is the Lavon affair ?
Was bombing in the 1950s carried out by Israeli agents in Egypt on US targets. It was designed to provoke US action against Nassar.
on the contrary
by toneore Sunday, Jan 16 2005, 8:12am
toneore@eircom.net
"Herr Russell's aims and ideology were were ignoble. The AF vandals are fully aware of the full facts about Nazism and its insidious supporters in Ireland. And I don't want to hear any of this crap about Russell only working with Cannaris of the Abwehr who were really an conspiracy against Nazism. There's no good Nazis or bad Nazis. They're all rotten."
Do you consider Lehi rotten?
Who was Lehi ?
(Im getting an education today)
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/lavon.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_(group)
I had heard of the USS Liberty though.
This is also similar to what happened in Venezuela recently. American backed coup-plotters opened fire on crowds of civilians, killing dozens. Pictures beamed throughout the world showed horrific civilian casualties and laid the blame at the door of Hugo Chavez. Chavez was then demonised in the media and temporarily swept from power. Those behind the coup were stupid enough to boast about what they had done live on tv and the truth only then began to emerge.
America was behind that.
In the case of Omagh, a key man in the lead up to those events is one American citizen Dave Rupert, an FBI/MI5/Garda agent.
Rupert lived over the border in Leitrim, not very far from Omagh. By his own admission he was in Omagh a number of times prior to the explosion. He fled Ireland immediately afterwards , although returned later.
Maybe those Simon Wiesthenthal people could highlight these people instead of sicking their big noses into our affairs.
Barry.
Ordinary people who can not stand over the murder of 29 people and the rape of the ideals of Irish republicanism by groups such as your own are never going to agree.
But I would really love to see your evidence for this point: "It is hardly irrelevant if the plan to bomb Omagh in the first place originated and was driven from within MI5 , assisted as it seems by agents within Garda Special branch."
I think we all know that the man who built the bomb, an engineer based in one of Dublin's old south city suburbs, was not an agent of the MI5 or the Garda Special Branch. I think we all know that the person who ordered that bomb built, a so-called victim of a miscarriage of justice, is not an agent of the MI5 or the Garda Special Branch.
Are you really suggesting that republicans are so stupid as to be led down the garden path in this way?
I certainly agree that 32CSM, Real IRA and Continuity IRA republicans are stupid - but are they completely retarded? No.
Your claim that a Dubliner built the bomb , with absolutely NO evidence to back this up, flies full in the face of what is known in the public domain.
A British agent known as Kevin Fulton (a Newry man named Keeley) identified the bomb-maker as a fellow Newry man, who he claims to have met reeking from ground down fertiliser immediately prior to the explosion.
. This was made known to RUC Special branch both before and after the explosion. Despite this, this individual has NEVER been questioned about Omagh. Indeed former RUC and SB chief Ronnie Flanagan publicly declared this man was not a suspect and never will be. A curious statement to make.
Flanagan has since resigned in the face of Nuala O'Loans report which takes Fultons claims very seriously.
As regards who ordered the bomb to be built, you do not know this, and neither do I. You refer to a victim of a miscarriage of justice but unfortunately there are quite a number of such people in jail at the minute so Im unsure who you mean.
One thing I do know is that Colm Murphy, the man the Garda, Britain and every newspaper and tv programme in Ireland hounded and demonised over Omagh, was fitted up and made a scapegoat in a political showtrial and frame up. Those who repeatedly swore lies against him have been exposed as liars and perjurors.
What we do know for certain is that the man who ordered the car be supplied for the bombing, a senior Garda special Branch operative was trained by MI5 and worked very closely with them. This man has now left Irelands jurisdiction. However hell be named shortly, as will more revelations emerge.
We also know that the garda agent he ordered to supply the car, Paddy Dixon, has also been allowed to leave the jurisdiction and has since vanished. Despite supposedly being wanted for questioning by UK authorities over the bombing, he was stopped, apprehended for a few hours by Customs and let proceed unhindered in England.
We now know that attempts to frame and discredit the claims of Garda White have spectacularly failed, and that a planted fire-arm which his legal team demanded be DNA tested promptly vanished into thin air immediately after this request..
We also know for certain that the operational log from Omagh RUC station vanished into thin air as well. We know as well from Nuala OLoans report that the bombing itself was hardly even investigated.
Another Special Branch officer in the North warned of an attack in Omagh for the 15 august ELEVEN days prior to it, yet not only was his warning not acted upon, it was deliberately suppressed until very recently. And there will be further revelations from this and other sources I am sure.
From cctv footage, and eyewitness reports on the ground we know for certain that civilians were herded directly into the path of the explosion. People leaving down side streets were turned back and sent to their dooms Not a single RUC officer was scratched, and the British Army in that garrison town had been confined to base on the day as a result of intelligence.
Surely with all this prior knowledge and involvement of agents both sides of the border, the stupidest people it would appear are the British security forces. They are NOT stupid, far from it, and they and their Garda Special Branch puppets were the only people to benefit from it.
The Draconian legislation introduced immediately after the explosion, as well as the public revulsion generated greatly diminished all opposition to British rule here and underpinned the status quo quite satifactorily.
AND THEY DID IT BEFORE IN DUBLIN/MONAGHAN, and other places so dont for one minute suggest they arent capable of it , please.
You "know" none of the above.
Knowledge is not the same as opinions based on a prejudicial interpretation of allegations and counter-allegations.
There is no argument with dogmatic people like you.
Your great mistakes are attributed to your enemies. I note you have no problem glorifying the rocket attack on MI6 HQ in London.
However, had that RPG gone astray and killed innocent civilians, you would no doubt be blaming the gardai, Independent newspapers, and beatings suffered as a child for it rather than owning up.
Your denial of Omagh as a "black operation" is no better than your denial of Sean Russell's support of a regime that created the world's largest systematic industrial killing machine.
Yes, the UK has a terrible record. But no, it can never be defended to jump in bed with somebody even worse.
There is no argument with dogmatic people like you. Britain had no involvement in Dublin Monagahan either. Good man.
Yes, I should be ashamed of my dogmatic hatred of terrorists and murderers, mandated by absolutely nobody.
I should be ashamed of myself for wanting the eradication of illegal unrepresentative groups who believe they are the true government of Ireland.
I should be ashamed of myself for not buying in to your fabricated revisionist recent history of Ireland.
Should the stern museum be vandalised? afterall , a year after Russell died some its members tryed to procure German help to create a Jewish state in British occupied Palestine. I'm sure those critical of Russell will be consistent and denounce " The fighters for the freedom of Israel" for their stain on jewish history by their overtures to Hitler supporters.
You'd wana cop on Reality, either you work for one of these shadowy organisations(mi5 etc) or your the most naive person to international politics. Your crys of terrorism and the like seems like you've been watching a bit too much Sky News since Sept. 11. What Barry describes is Black Ops it goes on all the time. sure it was just mentioned with the israeli attacks on the U.S. in egypt. I think you forget what these countries get up to. Im sure you think america and britain are saving us all by spreading democracy around you tick bastard
The last time I checked the dictionary, the word "tick" was what a clock does, what you do to a box, or a small blood-sucking parasite like yourself.
Perhaps, you meant "thick".
oh ye, in your last statement you said Russell was worse the british, are you nuts or just stupid. Britain is the reason theres a third world and these large countries are still the reason. they've plundered weaker nations forever and havent stopped they just dont do it so obviously. just cause they set up NATO and say they are doing good for world doesn't make it so. people like you seem to think the brits are bad for invading iraq for power and money yet you think they deal with us, a considerably smaller country differently. the only difference is where not arabs so theyve nothin to blame on, we have american support nad where in the EU and the so called civalised world and where too close to hide the truth, thats why they would use underhand tactics my friend so cop on.
And as regards the laughable notion that I work for MI5? Do you really think anybody from any intelligence agency would have the time or inclination to read the conspiratorial ill informed clap-trap that constitutes the content of Indymedia.
Stoner, Please read your ramblings before you post. Nobody minds a couple of spelling and grammar mistakes but that last post makes you seem barely literate. I can't even follow it.
yes i did mean thick thanks for pointing that out. once you knew what i meant. whatever you do dont attack my typing skills again its hurtful. I dont support the omagh bomb by the way. but i do think it was very strange. I dont think any republican is stupid enough to do that but i do know the brits are capable of killing people for the bigger picture. Why would you blow up 29 people that aren't involved in anything to disrupt a peace process when all you have to do is rob a bank and say it was the IRA and SF , that wud bring you a little lesss trouble on your doorstep
that mi5 jibe was more a judgement of your political views, international affairs are not as sugar coated as you might like
he is on the record about it too
of course these sites are checked out. this is where the people agianst world domination talk and sometimes Reality Check
Nobody credible reads Indymedia except people with time to waste or those like me who are looking for a laugh.
It's like looking through the window of a psychiatric ward. You keep meaning to turn away but you just can't resist seeing what insanity will come next.
I quite enjoy Barry's posts. As an exercise in delusion, they surpass anything I've ever seen before. His thoughts on the "black operations" of Omagh boggle my mind.
They're all based on the fantasy that the 32CSM and Real IRA had a mandate or popular support pre-Omagh and that the British/Irish governments with the help of Irish Indo managed to destroy some enormous support base.
The only people who ever supported 32CSM and RIRA were about 101 crackpots distributed around Louth, Armagh, Belfast, Dublin and Limerick.
Omagh didn't change any of that. It just made normal people hate them even more.
Reality check you should read this..you might wise up and its not...conspiritorial clap-trap
http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/0693/9306019.htm
Reality check Im sure you believed all the shit printed in the papers before Mayday about dublin turning into a warzone because of anarchists or how saddam was going to destroy us all with these weapons and his mates from the axis of evil
“He who is unaware of his ignorance will be only misled by his knowledge.”
george Soros (Funded UC IMC)
Rand Corporation (Various Reports on networks)
FBI / Italian High Up Coppers (Involved in server seizures)
Irish Police (Set up an operations room to monitor 'websites' in runup to may 6th do in the feenix park)
Oh yeah and at least half the lazy journos in the country including:
geraldine kennedy/Conor b***** and Aenghus fanning brendan o connor/editors of tribune starsunindoetcetcfeenix
why? Lots of reasons - the illicit thrill - they can read it but are not allowed to mention it in their bulletins - cos it's more interesting than their own websites - because it's not filtered-because the readership is huge sometimes and it's a small country etc etc etc
oh yeah because they love being scandalised by John Untouchable from the rffp
I could go on as i'm sure you realise
Yes, I've heard George Soros is one of Barry's biggest fans.
The gardai did indeed set up operations room to monitor crackpot websites around Mayday and I've heard the poor unfortunate members forced to read the dirge on Indymedia are still undergoing counselling.
Those journalists only read it to remind themselves of how important their job actually is because one of the unfortunate side-effects of the Internet is that every lunatic in this country can now publicise his latest "theory" or conspiracy.
Tell me one significant story that Indymedia in Ireland has ever broken or any significant event it brought to light, which would otherwise have remained unknown. And please don't mention the Battle of Dame Street, considering every organ of the mainstream press covered it.
Shannon Becoming a (the?) main US logistics hub in Europe in US/UK attack on Iraq. One of the biggest news stories here in Ireland in last 5 years and it was read here first in pretty much all the details including the fact that armaments and extraordinary rendees were also transiting through. Feenix did a bit too and the rest of the media played it softly softly in the footsteps of people publishing here and there.
reality, anybody who has a brain would know which side you support or work for. You show no regard for the counter-culture so it seems your only here to mock that culture and therefore are against it
there was NO 'Battle for Dame st.' reality check
pure anti-republican spin. another media hoax story.
according to reality check people voicing their theories is a side effect of the internet and that it shows journalists how needed there job is. everyone knows how the Gov. can control the media reality. ive come to conclusion that your not naive due to your comments but they have also led me to believe you know alot of shady people
My God man, you haven't a clue.
Shannon has been used by the US military since the Vietnam War and before.
Before that, Foynes was used during World War II.
Hip Hip Hooray for Indymedia - it broke a story that was sixty five years old. Cutting edge counter culture and all that.
who are you Reality Check? What do you stand for? if your young i think you might group up to be an irish ian duncan smith or something. Your probably the type of person who wouldn't pay tax so people cud have medical cards coming out with shit like ' why should i pay for there health with my hard earned cash, its not my fault ther poor'
yeh we know they used shannon Reality. the mans talkin about the Iraq war, you should read more carefully
Never ever ever before did this country allow transit to 150,000 troops per year of a country going to fight a war of agression.
The Iraq Buildup use of shannon this time round was unprecedented and was denied and hidden and covered up every step of the way by the government. The whole country realises this so you should realise that what you said in your last piece of disinformation has no credibility.
thats the thing eeeek.......reality either believes the disinformation his thrustworthy gov. and media feed him or he helps create it
imho
can anyone say 'antidemocratic minority'
more people read indymedia than vote for his party 'and that's the truth ruth'
After RCs comic intervention, does anyone have any firm leads on who wrecked the memorial ?
RCs bizarre attempt to blame the absolutely MARVELLOUS 32CSM, has fallen flat on its arse like the rest of his daft nonsense. Any firm contenders in the frame out there ?
Anyone ?
he is demonstrably 1. handy with a ladder 2. Virulently anti Republican 3. Virulently anti left 4. obsessed with republicans being nazis (this i would categorise in freudian terminology as 'displacement') And while we're at it he is complicit in putting people in concentration camps without trial, assisting in illegal pre-emptive war, depriving minorities of a voice (citizen traveller), midnight arrests and deportations, setting up special courts where a fair trial is far from guaranteed, deporting irish citizens, contributing to an atmosphere of festering racism through his land/blood referendum on citizenship, legitimising growing economic inequality, using the gardai to conduct surveillance on those trying to really get a free press going, scapegoating and slandering newspaper publishers, trying to revive thatchers failed criminalisation policy wrt SF and the PIRA 20 years after it first failed.
McD is far too much of a cissy boy to do any hard graft. His little soft milkwhite hands and flabby little arms wouldnt be able to remove the lid off a pickle jar, never mind the head from a bronze statue.
Plus its unlikely he would be wandering around the park at that time of night, as hed be tucked up at home with his winnie the pooh pyjamas on and waiting for Santy.
Regarding the earlier reported comments from the Simon Wiesenthal centre, this letter is in the Indo today.
++++++++++
Irish Independent
28th January 2005
Sending the wrong message
Sir - An article in the Times of London, entitled 'Nazi IRA Man's Statue Beheaded', also appeared in your newspaper as 'Jewish group says beheaded "Nazi" statue should be left as "symbol of Irish shame"' on the same day. I wish to clarify that this is a total misrepresentation of my position and that of the Simon Wiesenthal Centre.
I have repeated in my many visits to Ireland - especially at a seminar on human rights at the National University in Galway and, more recently, in Dublin, at a meeting of European NGOs against racism - my personal sympathy for Ireland's suffering throughout the infamous Famine and as a victim of brutal British colonialism.
The renaissance of your sovereignty, your national liberation and the rejuvenation of your language have run parallel with the rebirth of Jewish statehood and of Hebrew as a modern tongue.
When asked by the Times to comment on the destruction of the Sean Russell statue, I made two points:
* The removal of the damaged effigy or its reconstruction would both be perceived as political acts. I recalled Unesco's decision not to rebuild the Buddhist Bamyan statues of Afghanistan, destroyed by the Taliban. It was thought wiser to leave the ruins as an object lesson of the dangers of extremism and totalitarianism.
* I emphasised that the Jewish people reject the concept of national or inter-generational collective guilt, responsibility or shame - we have been the victim of a collective charge of deicide for two millennia.
On the other hand, Ireland is the only Second World War neutral to have never confronted its contacts with Nazi Germany as opposed to its 'unofficial' support for the Allied war effort. Debating the complexities of Irish neutrality is a cathartic process to be undertaken by the Irish people alone, just as the painful self-enquiry into national collective memory was travelled by the Swiss, the Swedes, the Spanish and other neutrals.
Indeed, I used the word 'shame', but not in the context attributed to me in the article. I said it was "a shame" that the alleged Nazi art connections of the Hunt Museum founders had not led to a public enquiry and an open debate on the lessons of the Second World War, especially during last year's Dublin EU presidency.
Too many of my closest friends in Ireland have been hurt by the perception of an uncharacteristic and unintended offence on my part against the spirit and heritage of Ireland. I am aggrieved at their pain and only hope, through your column, to reassure them of my constancy and goodwill to Ireland.
Dr Shimon Samuels,
Centre Simon Wiesenthal,
Avenue Marceau,
Paris
Now we are being told that we have to go through some collective examination and persumably expiation for the 26 county state having been neutral during WWII!
Let's be clear about this. What happened here in the 1930s and early 1940s - Blueshirts, Russell, neutrality, DeValera's message of sympathy on Hitler's death etc, etc, had to do with internal issues and no-one involved bears any repsonsibilty or guilt for the holocaust.
It seems that remembering awful event is no longer suuficient. Everyone must take part of the blame!
Well, when I looked at the picture of the 3 yr old girl murdered by the Israelis I didn't immediately blame every Israeli, much less every Jewish person anywhere in the world for what happened.
would republicans in southern ireland be right to destroy the hundreds if not thousands of HRH Victoria and HRH George adorned an Post boxes scattered around the country? Would it not be a valid protest in the light of the atrocities commited in this country and elsewhere?
Decapitate all the British postboxes now!!!
To the post boxes!!
I never noticed that -but I did, I must have. Fecking subliminal shit. Good point. I think ye'd have a hard job decpitating them though, they are cast solid.
I used to paint them postboxes green, and even a phonebox once. Up here in the occupied zone they are still bright imperialist red.
The best thing to do with the ones in the soth is chisel away the crown emblem. Not easy Ive tried that here in the past.
Dr Samuels from the Wiesenthal centre should be commended at least for taking the trouble to clarify his position. It appears certain journalsists have been taking liberties with the truth in order to promote an agenda.
Some of those Victorian cast iron boxes are actually valuable, though destroyed by years of paint. All right, it is a British Imperial crest, but come on - this is original street furniture over 100 years old. Was going to suggest robbing them and selling on e-bay with the money to a worthy case. But undoubtedly An Post would erect some useless monstrosities as replacements. Down the country many counties have also been denuded of their old communal pumps. Again very ornate but functional cast iron objects. Now, sadly, decorating Plastic Paddy pubs and Fake Georgian gardens. Sad.
But I agree with Barry about painting the post boxes in the 6 counties green :)
Youve put an idea into my head there Dan. That would be an interesting way for cunning individuals to raise much needed funds for republican POWs, and maybe even make a hefty donation to the replacement of Sean Russells memorial. HHmmmmmm.
By the way are there many statues/memorials left to the British crown in the 26 counties, or have they all got their come-uppance ?
There is some fountain to the Famine Queen in Bray and a statue in UCC too I think. Also the Wellington Monument up in the Park, but a bit ambitious maybe. I mean after selling it on e-bay you'd have to hire a feighter to deliver it as they don't make jiffy bags that big :)
Barry, there's a very large obelisk in the Phoenix Park called the Wellington Monument. Perhaps, you and your pals in the 32CSM should try and blow it up.
Only problem is that with the expertise of your compadres in the Real IRA, you would probably detonate the bomb at the entrance to Dublin Zoo, kill 28 people and an unborn child and then try and blame the British.
Here's a list of victims of Barry's intergovernmental + independent newspaper conspiracy.
Olive Hawkes, 60, Omagh
Jolene Marlow, 17, Omagh
Deborah Cartwright, 20, Omagh
Mary Grimes, 65, Beragh, County Tyrone
Her daughter, Avril Monaghan, 30, Aughadarna, County Tyrone
Avril Monaghan's baby daughter, Maura,
18 months, Aughadarna, County Tyrone
Sean McLaughlin, 12, Buncrana
James Barker, 12, Buncrana
Oran Doherty, 8, Buncrana
Geraldine Breslin, 43, Omagh
Brenda Logue, 17, Carrickmore
Philomena Skelton, 49, Drumquin
Gareth Conway, 18, Carrickmore
Brenda Devine, 20 months, Donemana
Lorraine Wilson, 15, Omagh
Samantha McFarland, 17, Omagh
Julia Hughes, 21, Omagh
Elizabeth Rush, 57, Omagh
Ricio Abad Ramos, 23, Madrid, Spain
Fernando Blasco Baselga, 12, Madrid, Spain
Esther Gibson, 36, Beragh
Anne McCombe, 48, Omagh
Veda Short, 46, Gortaclare
Aiden Gallagher, 21, Omagh
Alan Radford, 16, Omagh
Fred White, 60, Omagh
His son Brien White, 26, Omagh
Brian McCrory, 54, Omagh
Sean McGrath, 61, Omagh. Died three weeks after the blast.
Have you noticed nelson's erection mutate into the Spire, on that collage link that RTE use daily? Bah!!
Lost Lives
17 May 1974 Dublin & Monaghan Bombings
* Patrick Askin (44) Co. Monaghan
* Josie Bradley (21) Co. Offaly
* Marie Butler (21) Co. Waterford
* Anne Byrne (35) Dublin
* Thomas Campbell (52) Co. Monaghan
* Simone Chetrit (30) France
* Thomas Croarkin (36) Co. Monaghan
* John Dargle (80) Dublin
* Concepta Dempsey (65) Co. Louth
* Colette (20) & Baby Doherty, Dublin
* Patrick Fay (47), Dublin & Co. Louth
* Elizabeth Fitzgerald (59) Dublin
* Breda Bernadette Grace (34) Dublin and Co. Kerry
* Archie Harper (73) Co. Monaghan
* Antonio Magliocco, (37) Dublin & Italy
* May McKenna (55) Co. Tyrone
* Anne Marren (20) Co. Sligo
* Anna Massey (21) Dublin
* Dorothy Morris (57) Dublin
* John (24), Anna (22), Jacqueline (17 months) & Anne-Marie (5 months) O'Brien, Dublin
* Christina O'Loughlin (51), Dublin
* Edward John O'Neill (39), Dublin
* Baby Martha O'Neill, Dublin, (Stillborn)
* Marie Phelan (20), Co. Waterford
* Siobhán Roice (19), Wexford Town
* Maureen Shields (46), Dublin
* Jack Travers (28), Monaghan Town
* Breda Turner (21), Co. Tipperary
* John Walsh (27), Dublin
* Peggy White (44), Monaghan Town
* George Williamson (72), Co. Monaghan
Dublin Bombing - 1st December 1972
* George Bradshaw, (29) Co. Tipperary
* Thomas Duffy, (23) Dublin and Co. Mayo
Dublin Bombing - 20th January 1973
* Thomas Douglas, (21) Stirling, Scotland.
Unfortunately the above list is as a result of British / garda special branch co-operation. As more emerges about Omagh its becoming clear your list is also.
Open your eyes.
When did I ever say anything about Dublin/Monaghan. If you look at my posts - you'll see I've already said it's an utter disgrace the maintenance of the memorial to the victims of that atrocity.
I agree that Dublin/Monaghan was a "black operation". I do not pick and choose events as I see fit - I believe all terrorism whether state-sponsored or dissident republican is wrong.
But you and Barry insult the memories of those who died in 1972-4 by using that event to muddy the waters on the full responsibility of 32CSM and the Real IRA for Omagh.
Are you seriously suggesting that somehow Dublin Monaghan justified the murder of 29 people in Omagh?
Im convinced that both MI5 and their agents in Garda special branch colluded in both acts of carnage, and ensured they both would happen.
I am convinced BOTH black operations were devised and driven from within MI5, and that agents within garda special branch have actively assisted, in ensuring both slaughters occured and in the cover-up after BOTH.
And if my words obviously not good enough Ill refer you to a number of statements issued by the Grimes family of Omagh. They suffered the worst casualties on that day, including the loss of 2 unborn twins.
It was THEY who first referred to other forces being at work in Omagh on the day of the bombing, state forces. They also made a public statement on the day of the funerals referring to this, and pleaded that their families loss should not be used by those seeking to persue their own political agenda in this country. It appears those words have gone unheeded, especially by yourself. They also pleaded with the RIRA to never again allow that type of operational tactic to be used again. It hasnt.
Along with a number of other families they have publicly disassociated themselves from the shady Michael Gallagher and his politically motivated victims group which they have described as "media-darlings", and maintained a dignified silence ever since.
It was this dignified family who retained the services of Michael Mansfield QC, and whose questions at the Omagh inquests caused the crown forces not only to refuse to answer questions in the dock, but to hide behind crown solicitors.
At no stage have I said RIRA bear no responsibility. They publicly admitted responsiblity for assisting in the operation, and have borne the brunt of a huge security and media backlash ever since.
The 32csm chairman, Francie Mackey is a psychiatric nurse in Omagh hospital, and has been faced with the personal results of that carnage every day since.
Republicans in that movement have NOT ducked any responsiblity for it. What many are pointing out is HOW it happened, and who ENSURED IT WOULD HAPPEN.
The revelations in the OLoan report, as well as those by Garda White are just part of a jigsaw which is pointing in the direction of what did happen. Without a shadow of a doubt even more disturbing facts will come into the public arena. No doubt, and youll still ignore these .
It has taken 30 years to even get a semblance of an inquiry, or to even start getting at the truth of Dublin Monaghan. The Special Branch and their Brit controllers are actively frustrating these attempts - AS WE SPEAK. They are doing exactly the same in the case of Omagh.
What is your opinion of Colm Murphys release if you are so sure Garda sb/ MI5 bear no responsibility. ? Are innocent branchmen now on trial as a result of a 32CSM conspiracy ?
I watched some of the oireachtas meetings on morning tv during the week. One woman was speaking about her brother who was killed in Belturbet in Cavan. In the 30 years since it's happened not one person has ever called to her door. Not one Garda, not one politician, not one reporter, not even a priest. "The only information we got was off the telly occasionally".
Totally forgotten victims of the Brutish - conveniently swept under the carpet - but like everything else it will fester till it causes a stink.
Unfortunately that woman isnt alone being treated so shamefully
The gardas actions surrounding a number of other cases, including the abduction and murder of the elderly and inoffensive Seamus Ludlow by MI5 agents for sport, is another disgraceful act of collusion.
Barry, Both you and I know why Colm Murphy's statements were doctored. I'll save everyone's blushes by leaving it to come out in the perjury trial.
heres one for the youngsters
Israeli styleee tactics in NI were common, shooting schoolgirls in the head. Ho -hum.
Not because Colm was stitched up by the branch in a political show trial, of course you have a pefectly reasonable explanation. The gards would never do such a thing. Nor are any of them MI5 agents and they didnt cover up Dublin Monaghan either.
Its worth pointing out that the child murder referred to by Mise, as well as the slaughter of the Reavey family and the murders of the GAA supporters in Tullyvallen occurred on Colms doorstep. Colms family owned a pub there as well which British forces attempted mass murder in during that dark period too. No wonder that Colm became a republican prepared to hit back.
It appears that Garda Special Branch at that time were working closely with the very British intelligence agents who were directing this death squads activities south of the border, which included Dublin Monaghan.
But, Barry and Reality Check, ye are dragging the commentary on this article a wee bit off-topic. Rather than continuing to drag every last detail of Ireland's history into your debate at the end of a very long thread, why not write up a new article addressing some of the points raised? For example, a well-researched synopsis of the evidence for British intelligence's infiltration into the gardai would make an interesting read if the links are as close as Barry suggests. It would be more worthwhile than arguing with an individual who is probably not going to be swayed and is possessed of such a keen intellect that he claims, apparently without irony, that his main motivation for standing up on our soapbox is to tell us - repeatedly and loudly - what a stupid soapbox it is.
Note, this is _NOT_ an invitation to post up a poorly researched, fact-free diatribe about the shinners being nazis, the brits being devils or any other regurgitation of pre-fabricated opinions. We have the sunday papers for that.
I see Mr Murphy showing his best side on the RTE news shouting abuse at all of the journalists.
Amazing that he didn't want to give his side of the story.
Of course, he and his nearest and dearest have some very interesting and informative days in court to come.
If you still don't know what I'm talking about, I'd wager Mr Murphy is not looking forward to the garda perjury trial.
For a timely intervention. You are entirely correct. I have nothing further to add to this thread.
I'd like to congratulate Paul Moloney for his summary of the situation!
All in all, Sean Russell was extraordinarily short sighted in retrospect(did he really regard Germany-of the Fuhrer or the Kaiser_ as a friend of the independence of small nations, predominantly Catholic- pace Poland?) but it is clear that e was no Nazi sympathiser and the defacing of his statue was unwarranted
A review from Boston.
A slightly biased, but informative article by Brian Hanley is worth looking at.
According to Hanley,
An Phoblacht was reporting Nazi anti-democratic repressions from 1934,
that the IRA leadership tried to stop volunteers from going to fight against Franco;
that Seán Russell first had sympathetic contacts with Nazi Germany in October 1936;
that Russell was instrumental in a leadership coup within the IRA in 1938 that led to the 1939 bombing campaign - another venture to win German respect.
That official IRA papers began to use anti-semetic language in this period.
That all this should be seen in the context of varying political strands in 1930s IRA which was a sinking ship. Fighting with blueshirts was used by FF to ban it in 1936 and alienated some of its more conservative supporters. IRA went from 12,000 in 1936 to 2,000 in 1940. Such a rapid decline in fortunes made it easier for the apolitical militarists in the organisation to have greater influence, among them, Quartermaster Seán Russell.
Russell was afforded ambassadorial status in Germany in 1940, and his recommendations re using the North to hit British targets were incorpoerated into Operation Sealion, so well was he respected by the Nazis.
He died on his way back to Ireland on a German u-boat in August 1940. Frank Ryan on the boat with him, went back to Germany.
Worth remembering too, that Russell was like most other Irish people of that time (and since) - run with the fox; hunt with the hound.
Other v. interesting facts contained in article in link below. A summary can't do it justice.
I thought it was excellent and did put Russell's collaboration with the Nazis in the context of the time - though making it clear that it represented a conscious right wing turn for the IRA at the time. As the article makes clear, the nature of the Nazi regime was well known, particularly because An Phoblacht had used to carry anti Nazi articles up to late 30s.