Opening up Croke Park

by Conor Tue Feb 22, 2005 00:07

This is a very simplified view of the whole situation. The GAA has every right to defend what it has built, but at the end of the day who has built the GAA.
The same people who have a love of all sport and the knowledge that the best way to see it is live.

As far as taring the FAI and IRFU with the same brush that is just blind ignorance. Lansdowne road is the IRFUs pitch not the FAIs. The whole professionalism /amateur argument is also entirely irrelevant to this argument. These are two international sports competing on an international level and at least the IRFU can keep it's international players at home unlike soccer.

At the end of the day it will be decided at congress because at last it will be allowed to be discussed. In my own opinion the FAI should suffer for their lack of foresight and initiative in relying on Lansdowne road all these years. Irish Rugby can play in Thomond park or Ravenhill if needs be. The GAA needs to make the statement that Croke park is the home of GAA but is also the property of all irish people as is our games. The gesture of offering a home to Rugby while their home is being repaired is one such statement after all Rugby is an All-Ireland game aswell .

All those Irish soccer fans will have to go to Britain to watch their home matches but i'm sure they'll feel at home in their replica Man Utd./Liverpool/Celtic jerseys.

by seedot Tue Feb 22, 2005 02:36

Rugby competes for players and spectators with GAA.

Next Sunday Kilkenny are at home to Galway, Limerick are at home to Tipp and Wexford are playing Cork (All in the NHL) at the same time as the egg chasers have some form of event on in Lansdowne road.

You can't attend both.

You can't play both.

It doesn't matter that rugby might be a 32 county game or that by ditching the soldiers song they've got players from both traditions - what matters is whether it is better for the sports that the GAA is bound to promote to let other games be played in Croke park or any other ground.

This is the sensible argument for opposing foreign games (and don't bother mentioning american football - which Irish kid chooses that over football or hurling?).

The emotional argument includes Michael Hogan, shot on the pitch with the Hogan stand named after him, Hill 16 built on the rubble from the city centre that was shelled, Crossmaglen Rangers ground occupied for 30 years, etc. etc. right back to the foundation of the association.

To have paid players on the pitch, to have god save the queen and the English flag flying, to have fans who have rioted in Dublin in recent years in the ground are all huge steps.

Anybody who thinks that money is an argument doesn't get the GAA.

Why is the ground the property of all Irish people when one group have, through community and voluntary activity developed it to promote Gaelic games while others have wasted their money.

Croke Park belongs to the GAA. This was debated only 3 years ago. It should be debated again since clubs and then county boards have put forward motions. But I don't see how the GAA gains from opening the ground.

by toshkar Tue Feb 22, 2005 11:05

Then again the GAA can't really do much to gain anything. It is such a pity that Croke Park was built in Dublin where most of the population are more interested in soccer.

All of the arguments for not opening croke park seem to be historical, does it have a future.

What about all the kids who will decided to give up GAA to become a rock star after seeing U2 this summer?

by toshkar Tue Feb 22, 2005 11:05

Then again the GAA can't really do much to gain anything. It is such a pity that Croke Park was built in Dublin where most of the population are more interested in soccer.

All of the arguments for not opening croke park seem to be historical, does it have a future.

What about all the kids who will decided to give up GAA to become a rock star after seeing U2 this summer?

by jonah Tue Feb 22, 2005 11:14

I say lets keep Croke Park for ourselves. We shall defend the right to stage American Football exhibition games, Garth Brokes and any other propaganda that pays top dollar.

Any we want more millions from the government as well.

by Bruce Billabong Tue Feb 22, 2005 14:24 irishyusuf at yahoo dot com 087 2741222

G'day mates ! Just a quick hello from us Aussie chaps who have enjoyed playing our game in your sacred souper-bowl for years.

Australian Footy is a great Empire game and even though our national flag includes the Union Jack (seen regularly in Croake Park) I'm sure that the few changes to our compromise rules made it as Oirish as the mornin dew.

Maybe the Soccer and Rugger buggers could compromise their rules too and gain admittance to the holy of holies through mendacity and fineaglin, just as we have?

Maybe soccer could legalise the famous Roy Keane, "kick in the nebs" , just for matches in Croaker, thus making it more Gaelic? The Ruggers too could legalise the broken jaw tackle and thus find the turnstiles welcoming in well heeled Fiachras and Fionas fron Foxrock?

Just a thought!

by Dublin Exile Tue Feb 22, 2005 16:07

Croke Park should be opened up while Lansdown road is being rebuilt for one reason only - Its the right thing to do.

I trained a team of U14s at the weekend, half of whom were wearing replica soccer jerseys, what would Barra have me do - send them home to put on replica county or club jerseys? Give us a break.

When I talk to other kids about why they've dropped the GAA in favour of soccer you get all sorts of responses including an almost universal one around it being 'cool' to play soccer and comparisons between our facilities and what they see everyday on TV from the Premiership. Perhaps a chance to see the Republic playing in Croker, possibly the 'coolest' stadium in either Britain or Ireland might get some of them to look at GAA differently.

The other thing to be realised is that the GAA doesn't operate in splendid isolation, most of our lads play soccer as well and some have even played a bit of rugby and whatever about the past I don't believe anyone thinks that Roy Keane or Shane Byrne are any less Irish than Sean Og O hAilpin or Oisin McConville.

The money raised by hiring out Croke Park could be well spent on trying to up the standard of hurling particularly in counties where it is treated as the eccentric fascination of a few blow-ins but not what we ought to be wasting our time and talent on.

Finally, selfless committment over the years is not the sole preserve of those who oppose change, indeed those who work hardest for the GAA wont be at Congress at all, they'll be out training teams, driving kids to matches and refereeing and umpiring, not sitting on their arses on county boards waiting for muggins turn to get a chairmanship or whatever.

Those advocating change are doing it for the best of reasons, to give a hand out to others involved in sport in Ireland, instead of letting some corporate stadium in the UK fleece them while they rebuild their own place.

by dart Tue Feb 22, 2005 18:09

You make some good points Dublin Exile especially about the real people who make the GAA work. But the GAA should only up Croke Park if it is in the interest of the GAA. And only if its the right thing to do in promoting Gaelic games.

I don't think giving a platform to a competing game is in the long-term interest of the GAA.

I heard Pat Spillane say how it sickens him how Michael Jackson can play in Park Uí Chaoimh but Brian O Driscoll can't play in Croker. But this isn't comparing like with like. The GAA aren't competing with Michael Jackson over whether young children are going to choose a singing career or play GAA but they are competing with rugby over which sport young children play.

The only way it should be opened is if the GAA deemed that they can promote their games more with the money they can receive than the negative effect done by giving the opposing sports a platform (or possibly by the bad image that would be presented if they don't open it)

by Dublin Exile Tue Feb 22, 2005 18:28

The question you ask and points you make are fair and good dart. I still think its the right thing to do for a number of reasons:

1. Many kids are playing both sports anyway and soccer is thriving in Ireland depite the fact that the FAI have been an appalingly incompetent organisation for so long

2. It would be playing into the hands of anti-GAA people if we were to say no as the mainstream media would portray it as a throwback to the days of the Ban.

3. The money could be used to improve our own games and the facilities which we use

4. It might allow some people who seem to spend their lives organising Silver Circles, Race Nights and Private Members Draws to actually get back to what they really wanted to do in the first place, play the games and train the youngsters

5. Rugby (outside of Dublin) and soccer people are by and large ordinary guys and girls like ourselves, and putting the cost on them of having to go to England to watch Ireland play a 'home' game would be deeply unfair and indefensible if a beautiful and modern 85,000 seater stadium was lying empty at home.

How could the GAA as a movement which is so closely related to the development of this country politically, culturally, physically and (whisper it) economically, justify forcing our friends and neighbours to shell out massive amounts of money to PLCs in England, or Scotland or Wales when the same money could be put to use here to develop football, hurling, and camogie?

by Barry Tue Feb 22, 2005 18:54

Maybe the soccer fans should follow the excellent example of Ireland captain Roy Keane and simply refuse to give a shite about the Ireland team or the world cup . And stay at home if their sport is too expensive.

by Dublin Exile Wed Feb 23, 2005 13:50

Regardless of what your opinion of the Saipan debacle was( and every GAA person I know has an opinion on it) it does appear that Roy Keane and the Irish team have gotten over it.

The second part of the above contribution is ridiculous, if soccer fans cant afford to travel to England they'll watch the match at home on TV anyway! Why not pack out Croker instead and use the money to help the clubs?

by Barra Ó Gríobhtha Fri Feb 25, 2005 16:33

>>Next Sunday Kilkenny are at home to Galway, Limerick are at home to Tipp and Wexford are playing Cork (All in the NHL) at the same time as the egg chasers have some form of event on in Lansdowne road.
You can't attend both.
You can't play both.

Exactly, it doesn't get simpler than that.

>> Smallmindedness Rides Again!
>> The second part of the above contribution is ridiculous, if soccer fans cant afford to travel to England they'll watch the match at home on TV anyway! Why not pack out Croker instead and use the money to help the clubs?

Money does not help clubs. People do! That's the premise of my argument. The GAA can have all the money in the world but if they can't find people who are interested in preserving Irish-Gaelic sports, then they are doomed to failure. Stuffing Croke Park with Soccer or Rugby supporters has nothing to do with the preserving Gaelic sports. In fact, I make the point above that it will impact negatively on it. I am not small-minded thank you, and if I thought opening up Croke Park would help preserve Irish-Gaelic culture of course I would support it.

>>The GAA needs to make the statement that Croke park is the home of GAA but is also the property of all irish people as is our games.

No they don't. The Gaelic games are part of the Irish-Gaelic identity; they are not someone's property. Ireland is a multi-cultural state, and therefore Irish-Gaelic culture is a subset of Irish culture. The GAA is not supposed to represent the cultures of all the peoples on this island; it is supposed to preserve Irish-Gaelic sport. Many Irish people do not regard themselves as belonging to a Gaelic heritage and there is nothing wrong with that. Therefore the idea that Hurling or Gaelic Football belongs to them is both tedious and irrelevant.

>> I trained a team of U14s at the weekend, half of whom were wearing replica soccer jerseys, what would Barra have me do - send them home to put on replica county or club jerseys? Give us a break.

No I don't think you should send them home. Give yourself a break!

>>When I talk to other kids about why they've dropped the GAA in favour of soccer you get all sorts of responses including an almost universal one around it being 'cool' to play soccer

It’s “cool” because the media promotes it as being such. There’s also the materialistic lifestyle associated with professional soccer that appeals to many young people. In reality though, there is nothing cool about the scenes at Goodison Park at the weekend, when missiles were thrown on the pitch, or the scenes from Landsdowne road a few years ago. Or the fact that Soccer fans are generally segregated at Premier League matches.

They will associate the 'coolest' stadium in Britain and Ireland with Soccer if that’s what they see being played there.

>> The money raised by hiring out Croke Park could be well spent on trying to up the standard of hurling particularly in counties where it is treated as the eccentric fascination of a few blow-ins but not what we ought to be wasting our time and talent on.

Well, I moved to Donegal when I was 10. One day my friends and myself were playing Soccer, when I asked them if they'd have any interest in playing Hurling. They weren't to keen at first, but I did manage to persuade them. We used to play a game similar to "3 goals in" with a tennis ball, where the outfield players had hurls, and the goalie had a tennis racket. No money was required what so ever, just one blow-in.

Personally I believe one way of promoting Hurling would be to get the top 6 Football teams in each county to challenge each other in an end of season Hurling league. Again, it doesn't require money, just a little imagination.

by pat c Fri Feb 25, 2005 16:57

i live in the vicinity of croker and i dont want more crowds in the area. its bad enough as it is.

they're like the orange order, drunkenly singing their strange songs, waving their odd banners and marching triumphantly through my area!

by barry Fri Feb 25, 2005 20:30

Thats one of the most clear and concise arguments for Croke park ive seen to date. To open the park up to these utterly inferior sports will have a detrimental effect on the entire GAA ethos. It will simply be another stadium rather than being a source of ultimate pride and acheivement for those of us who wish to uphold our national games and gaelic heritage. Croke park is more than just a handy venue, it is a monument to the pride, hard work and sacrifice of the entire GAA movement who made such a stadium a reality.

Jesus, I can remember having to get changed behind a ditch , while the cows were literally chased off the field before the game. The pitch itself , simply a farmers field, was sloped at an angle. Throughout the game you had to avoid the cowshite. My townie chums, soccer afficionadoes all, used to mock both myself and gaelic games during the week . Now it appears they want their games played in OUR stadium ? They can feck off, hands off Croke park.

by Kev Thu Apr 07, 2005 20:50

It would seem that so many of the reasons for excluding non-Gaelic sports from Croker are not based on the promotion of football or hurling for their own merits but rather for preventing soccer or rugby from superceding them. Negative reasoning has the appearance of an injured animal swiping in vain at a predator and 'foreign sports' only represent a threat if, when on a level playing field, Gaelic sports are found lacking. It shows a distinct lack of faith in the Irish sports that so many have to resort to blaming the media or economic structures in football which exist primarily in England (home-based soccer players are not well to do) for soccers popularity. There is a GAA club in every parish in the country but it would seem that the Gaelic sports are a fragile bunch which are kept untouched in an enormous glass case. Preservation of tradition by any means - that is means that are not in the interest of Gaelic games but to the detrement of other games - is indicative of fear that the games are not capable of sustaining themselves. If the Gaelic sports are indeed too weak to exist in tandom with soccer or rugby then the curators of the museum may throw them out now. it is also odd no one has noticed that soccer and rugby teams in question are national teams. There is a serious distinction there. Gaelic games will never offer us international competition.

by kev again Thu Apr 07, 2005 21:02

Sports should hardly be concered with your townie-versus-culchie arguments. Such childish one-up manship is what degrades a debate. 'inferior sports' similarly makes a mockery of anything else you have included. Let the sports stand on their own two feet without relying such nonsense ideological claims about YOUR stadium.

by Real Irish Patriot Thu Apr 07, 2005 21:14

Balls to football and hurling. I live near Croke Park and want to have a reason to go along.

by lucie Fri Apr 08, 2005 19:26

"Jesus, I can remember having to get changed behind a ditch , while the cows were literally chased off the field before the game. The pitch itself , simply a farmers field, was sloped at an angle. Throughout the game you had to avoid the cowshite. My townie chums, soccer afficionadoes all, used to mock both myself and gaelic games during the week . Now it appears they want their games played in OUR stadium ? They can feck off, hands off Croke park."

Barry, being a country fella you've obviously no objection to Garth Brookes and all the other shite concerts that have been staged there in the past.

by Barry Fri Apr 08, 2005 21:28

now and again.

Music isnt a sport.

Garth Brooks fans dont go round Dublin with union jacks chanting anti-irish slogans either

by Hibee Fri Apr 15, 2005 00:21

Rule 42:
(a) All property including grounds, Club
Houses, Halls, Dressing Rooms and
Handball Alleys owned or controlled by
units of the Association shall be used only
for the purpose of or in connection with
the playing of the Games controlled by
the Association, and for such other
purposes not in conflict with the Aims
and Objects of the Association, that may
be sanctioned from time to time by the
Central Council.

(b) Grounds controlled by Association units
shall not be used or permitted to be used,
for Horse Racing, Greyhound Racing, or
for Field Games other than those
sanctioned by Central Council.

No mention of "foreign" sports there I see.

As for opening Croker - should the FAI and/or IRFU not actually ASK or INDICATE to the GAA that they would like to use Croke Park?. So far they haven't.

by Devil Dog Fri Apr 15, 2005 01:20

Short of going to the UK for "home" games, where else are they going to play while Lansdowne is being redeveloped?

And Barry, Croker played host to a game of American football a few years ago, between Navy & Notre Dame...I guess that's ok though....

by seedot Fri Apr 15, 2005 02:31

Maybe amateurism is a reason to exclude professional sports. The Special Olympics were in Croke Park. No GAA person that I have heard said keep these sports out. But these were sports played for the competition and the love of the game - not for money. They were organised by volunteers who saw what they did as contributing to their community - in much the same spirit that the GAA and Croke Park has been built over the years.

If the decision is pushed on the GAA tomorrow, if money and emotional blackmail on behalf of the idiot cousins of irish sport wins through then it will in some way be a betrayal of the objective of amateur sport as the way sport should be.

Australian footballers are payed for their sport - but the strange hybrid that happens in Croke Park every couple of years is more worrying for the way it has become a meatmarket to sell our best athletes than for not supporting any aim of the association. Connection with the diaspora is definitely an aim of the GAA - although the half time show with Brush Shields was definitely enough to ban the combination rules as well.

Whatever - maybe its not in conflict with the aims of the association to broadcast a marriage proposal over the tannoy while the 3rd quarter (2nd half in gaelic) threw in or kicked off or bounced up or whatever. Probably not stated or thought of explicitly when rule 42 was drafted. But having money through the turnstiles on Jones Road which supports the asset prices of the most expensive players in the most professional sport in Europe must surely be in conflict with the aims and objectives of any association for the promotion of amateur sports.

by Barry Fri Apr 15, 2005 15:42

This was a college football game. College football is an amateur sport, not professional.
Neither Navy or Notre Dame want to get their foot in the door and have it as their national stadium either.
This game was simply an attempt to reach out to our Irish diaspora and welcome them to the nation.

The GAA occupy a special place in the psyche of ordinary Irish people throughout the country. Its purpose is not only football and hurling but to promote a set of values, evidenced by its adherence to its amatuer status, but demanding of standards such as respect and fair play.

Witness the arrogant snub to Mary McAleese by the English rugby squad, the despicable behaviour and racist chants of English soccer fans at lansdowne rd, an Irisg rugby team which despises this countrys national anthem, Irish soccer fans hissing and booing every time a former rangers player touches a ball. (not to mention the idiots who deface our national flag by painting soccer slogans over it)

This nonsense should be kept firmly outside the door of croke park, not just because its in contradiction to the entire GAA ethos, but simply because its a bad example to our young people. Thrse people are simply incapable of respecting the standards the GAA has set, so they should go away and annoy someone else.

by David Slattery Wed Aug 03, 2005 20:39 slattery_david at yahoo dot co dot uk 0879955478

After reading this artical, and the story was very well writen but let us not forget at the beginning the child perfered to watch football(aka soccer) but due to croke park only alowing gaelic football to be played there he was unable to wach the match he wanted. Of course because of the gaa and the rules he was FORCED to watch a gaa game, which he enjoyed, but are we to believe that by FORCING your children to watch gaelic football that this is the way forward, i think not and also as we live in the 21st centuary there is a thing called freedom which i hope every young child will be alowed to enjoy. welcome to the 21st centuary G.A.A

by Peter Fri May 19, 2006 11:42

The idea of refusing assisstance to the I.R.F.U in a short time of need is like a knife in their back from the hands of the GAA. How many times have we seen rugby clubs in this country allow their facilities, be them clubhouses or playing fields, to be used by GAA clubs or organisations? The GAA themselves are in debt to this country and rugby and soccer supporters/players (through tax) are also the ones who have paid for much of Croke Park. On a different point (just to rant a bit), Rule 42 which prohibits the use of Croke Park for "foreign" sports has been disregarded repeatedly BY THE GAA in the past. American Football....? International Rules....? It seems to me that the prehistoric die hards of the GAA will disregard such an important and nationalistic rule seated deep in the beliefs of Irish patriotism IF it results in financial gain.

by Barry Fri May 19, 2006 13:10

Could you please inform us as to who these poor GAA teams are that didnt have grounds to play on or clubhouses and which rugby clubs offered theirs to them ? Your comtending that this has happened constantly . Im not aware of this phenomenon at all so some examples would be welcome .

by Bugger Fri May 19, 2006 13:57

Here you go.

by pat c Fri May 19, 2006 13:59

Some people wont be satisfied until there is a plaque put up in Croke Park honoring the Black & Tans who carried out the Bloody Sunday massacre.

by Barry Fri May 19, 2006 15:18

Last year I attended a seminar with the former Armagh player behind that paticular initiative , Ger Houlihan . On the panel with him was Billy Hutchinson of the PUP , a former lecturer from Jordanstown uni and a Dublin sports journalist . The decision for GAA clubs to play on the Armagh rugby grounds was part of a peace and reconciliation inititive sponsored by a number of bodies . Armagh GAA clubs werent stuck for facilities and coming begging cap in hand by any means as the above poster suggests . Hes also suggested its happened all over the country . One localised initiative that basically no club outside of Ger Houlihans patch takes part in is not a hypocritical GAA by any means .

by youknowwhoitis Fri Feb 09, 2007 14:17

Well I think it's great that Croke Park is being used for Rugby etc.
Public money has gone into the refurbishment.... if the GAA wanted to keep their holy ground to themselves they should have paid for everything themselves.
It's not as if the Rugby was playing there for free either...
And for those of you who are so anti the foreign sports..... well you really should stop writing in this foreign language... sauce for the goose and all theat

by bohsfocus - Bohsnews Sat Feb 10, 2007 12:19

The concept that football and rugby are nasty, professional corporatised games is at least an original argument for keeping these codes out of Croke Park. Of course, it is not the mindset that keeps a sizeable majority of GAA supporters are swayed by: they just don't like 'foreign' games.
It might be worth noting that football, of itself, is not some nasty agent of globalisation, You can have football, and even professional, football, that isn't corrupted by oligarch ownership. Bohemians is a democratically run, member-owned club with professional players. So there's no reason to bar the sport from this publicly-funded stadium. Of course, the dogs in the street know that many county managers and players are professional in everything but name.
As for football being inferior: hah! Just look around you at any unsupervised group of youngsters to be found in any green space. Are they playing the GAA code? Of course not.
In fact, if they're not playing football as it is played everywhere else, they are more likely to have hurls in their hands, playing a real Gaelic game that is much superior to Cusack's gimcrack mix of rugby and soccer.

by bren Sat Feb 10, 2007 22:29

No aspect of Rugby has anything to do with Gaelic football .....

by dub Sun Feb 11, 2007 13:09

You are talking utter nonsense. I cannot think of a single instance of a rugby or soccer club helping out a GAA club with pitches or faciliites. Indeed it is not that long ago that Cathoic run middle class schools had a ban on GAA sports. And I don't even have to get into the "culture" of Ulster rugby and the IFA.

by Paraic - GAA Tue Feb 13, 2007 11:51

Croke Park will resound to "God Save The Queen" in 2 weeks' time - is that right, the scene of the Croke Park Massacre ? I don't think so . Surely something can be sorted out in time to prevent the British National Anthem being played there for the rugby match ?

by Caobhin Tue Feb 13, 2007 12:43

But beware - cops are hyping it as a rerun of 25/2/06

Meanwhile, English rugby fans are likely to encounter republican protests at the historically resonant clash with Ireland. The breakaway nationalist group Republican Sinn Fein (RSF), which opposes the peace process, has confirmed it will picket the match. The organisation was one of three republican groups that organised protests against a loyalist parade through Dublin city centre last year. Demonstrations against the 'Love Ulster' march degenerated into some of the worst rioting Dublin had seen in decades.

Garda sources in Dublin told The Observer they were monitoring the RSF and several other anti-Good Friday Agreement republican factions in the run-up to the clash at Croke Park.

'They managed to turn O'Connell Street upside down last year and we were caught napping. They brought hundreds of young men looking for trouble on to the streets. We can't afford for that to happen again,' one senior officer said.

by bohsfocus - Bohsnews Sat Feb 17, 2007 17:41

To Bren: tell that to Con Houlihan.

by dub Sat Feb 17, 2007 18:25

Central Council has voted to today that 2008 is last year for foreign games. Lansdowne will not be even started by then so off to Cardiff with you :)

by Bren Sat Feb 17, 2007 18:41

I could'nt care less about Con ,Ive been promoting Gaelic football in the USA for years and the even mention of Rugby turns people away and if you look at the sport Rugby has nothing to do with Gaelic football ,Nothing crosses over Nothing !!!!!!

by John Boy Sun Feb 18, 2007 01:25

How small-minded are some of these comments!

Lets ban Ireland from ever hosting anything remotely English....800 years of oppression!

Repeat ad nauseaum.

So what if 'God Save The Queen' is played at Croker....its not a smack in the face for anyone. It's testament to how far this country has come. We are a Republic. We're not ruled by anyone and to continuously harken back to when England controlled matters is just backward.

by bren Sun Feb 18, 2007 01:37

Is there not still the matter of 6 little counties up north or did Ulster break off from Ireland and become a nation all on its own ???? and no Iam not part of any Republican party and anything like that just a citizen of Ireland .

by Jasper Sun Feb 18, 2007 12:00

Yes but is that a reason to have a problem with opening up Croker and allowing Ireland to stage matches there?

This is about Ireland playing on an international stage....now who they play there?

I'd rather be proud of the country I live in and playing on a magnificent stage that'd be the envy of many a country rather than harken back to 1920 and beyond and a time when things were vastly different.

by Jacqueline Fallon Sun Feb 18, 2007 14:45

I believe it is very unwise and grossly insensitive of Cumann Lúthchleas Gael to allow the English National Anthem to be played in Páirc an Chrócaigh or indeed the English flag to be allowed fly there. Out of respect for the victims of the first Bloody Sunday, a moment’s silence should be observed instead, in remembrance of the dead and injured GAA players and supporters who were fired upon and shot dead (three of whom were children) by the British Army from the pitch on 21st November 1920.

I sincerely hope that the money gained through opening Croke Park up to rugby could be put aside for the GAA players, and also set aside for the weaker counties to better promote: camogie, hurling and football among youngsters and to build-up their existing teams - some GAA grounds I’ve visited in the Connacht region in particular, leave a lot to be desired, those in the Leinster area, as usual, fair much better.

Perhaps, during the rugby interval they could have a hurling game on one side and a Gaelic football game played by school kids on the other, to show case our Gaelic games and also have the Artane Boys Band playing a few patriot traditional tunes like ‘A Nation Once Again’ or (more facetiously) ‘Come Out You ‘Black ‘n‘ Tans’!’

I hope some day soon we will have a National Sports Stadium so people can play rugby and soccer and other games there without controversy; and that the Gaelic Athletic Association can be left alone to concentrate solely on promoting Gaelic athletics, the sole reason it was founded 1884 in the first place. In my opinion, it is greed that is the sole motivator that compelled them to take their eye off the ‘ball’ in this instance (the metaphorical ball being, of course, the promotion of Gaelic games and pastimes).

On a final note, I hope that Ireland beats the shite out of England!

Slán anois.

by Barry - 32 csm Sun Feb 18, 2007 20:02

The norths recent history has seen the British crown forces single out GAA players and supporters for harrassment , numerous beatings and a number of murders while going to and returning from GAA matches as well as murderous attacks on clubhouses and GAA officials. On countless ocassions GAA matches were disrupted by patrols crossing the pitch and low flying helicopters buzzing the grounds .For the entire troubles the GAA ground at Crossmaglen was occupied by the British army . Only a few months ago its was revealed that many British army observation cameras on the border were targetting the Dromintee GAA pitch and clubhouse and club members family homes . Just a few weeks ago a heavily armed contingent of PSNI attacked and entered the family home of a prominent GAA playing family in Crossmaglen and inflicted severe beatings upon a father and son , the son a player for Crossmaglen Rangers CLG .
The union jack and God Save the Queen will now be taking up physical occupation of the birthplace of modern Irish national consciousness while still in physical occupation of part of our national territory and violating our national sovereignty in a criminal manner . However as the southern government can now inform the world that the constitutional issue is finally settled and there is no longer any dispute over our national sovereignty , it means the embarassing issue of the British activities in the north can be safely ignored . Its no longer part of the national territory thanks to the GFA , therefore there should be no longer any problem welcoming a British team to Croke park because the issue is settled for good .

by pat c Mon Feb 19, 2007 09:56

things will be a bit different this time. The last time the English were in Croke Park they had machine guns and rifles (but not an armoured car, as at Armistar, they couldn't get it in). The players have also promised that they won't use their personal weapons to fire into the crowd if God Save The Queen is jeered.

by Jacqueline Fallon Mon Feb 19, 2007 22:19

"For the entire troubles the GAA ground at Crossmaglen was occupied by the British army"

On reading Barry’s contribution, it really astounds me that Cumann Lúthchleas Gael would allow 'God Save the Queen' to be played at their headquarters given the continued harassment that GAA players and supporters in the six counties experience at the hands of the British Crown forces, and in the past the murder of GAA supporters by the British Queen's army. Without a doubt, the people who made the decision to permit the playing of this awful anthem did not suffer such harassment themselves going to a GAA game nor have they any understanding of it, or else they would not permit the English Anthem to be played.

Living in the 26 counties, far from British military observation posts and British military helicopters disrupting games and guns being pointed in your face, it is easy for some people here to be complacent and say it is all in the past, when in reality for the people in the six counties that is not the case, they are still occupied and harassed on a daily basis by British crown forces (army, police and MI5 etc.).

I can only imagine the anger felt by those like Barry, who experience at first hand the British Queen’s forces harassing them going to and from GAA matches, and then hearing that 'God Save the Queen' will be played in the headquarters of the GAA!

I sincerely hope someone in the GAA, indeed, I plead with them all to come to their senses and do the right thing and make the decision to ban the playing of this detested English anthem in the grounds of Croke Park, if they care at all about the GAA players and supporters in the six counties and those who died in the first Bloody Sunday, they will.

Dia ár sábháil.

by Tenant rights Mon Feb 19, 2007 23:01

J. Fallon wrote - "I sincerely hope someone in the GAA, indeed, I plead with them all to come to their senses and do the right thing and make the decision to ban the playing of this detested English anthem in the grounds of Croke Park, if they care at all about the GAA players and supporters in the six counties and those who died in the first Bloody Sunday, they will."

The GAA don't have the authority to ban the singing of the British national anthem. The GAA are the landlords of the stadium they have no authority over the rugby match being played. If the international rugby union authorities were to ban the singing of the British national anthem, then who would stop the thousands of England supporters from singing "God Save the Queen" at Croke Park?

No one will be able to stop the England supporters from singing "God Save the Queen". This "argument" is pointless. Just another dying gasp from the extreme right wing nationalists.

by situationalist Tue Feb 20, 2007 00:18

Which will be easier?
giving landlords the power to regulate a tenant's music taste, performance, downloading, recording, storing and sunday tea-time after the match manuscript writing? ...........or..............
giving the rank and file Garda the authority to detain anyone singing, performing, emitting, broadcasting or causing in any way to be received by a third party the intellectual property known as "God save the Queen" except with written permission from the directorate of the Irish secret services countersigned by non-political and neutral character of the bone fides like genuine Mr Garland?

I'd go with the public order angle to be honest with both the cumann member and non-member alike. You'll get more support from the local community that way. No-one is interested in tenant's rights anymore. Couldn't everyone not sing our nobel anthem a bit louder in response? OR considering we're talking about a rugby crowd here - I suppose there would be an extra budgetary requirement to print up the hand-outs in both written gaeilge and the easy to sing phonetic version. It might be a good provisional measure to push up the volume on a choir signing it on the loudspeakers until at least the rugby union public learn it.

Oh I can't see this going any other way but polemical.
P-o-l-e-m-i-c-a-l................ you can count me out of Croke park and off of hill 16. I never thought I'd write it.

by curious Tue Feb 20, 2007 08:44

It will be interesting to see how many of the Irish supporters sing along with it! Let's face it, for a significant section of the Irish bourgeoisie this is their way of getting back on those nasty peasants who play their awful games and have no respect for their betters.

Personnally as a GAA member I was opposed, and still am, to allowing soccer and rugby, so GSTQ is a secondary issue.I will be nowhere near Croke Park nor will I watch it on television. Plenty of good GAA matches on the same day.

by Congal Tue Feb 20, 2007 13:44

Can we please have some common sense when it comes to playing sport.

We are now in a globalised world where availability of information and freedom of speech enable us to interract in a civilised way.

Its sport and thats it, Rugby, Football, Tennis, Hockey, GAA its just sport. It is entertainment and a way of keeping fit for people able to play it.

Yes mistakes have been made in the past and they will always be made, but its 2007 not 1907 !!!

All this talk about fans being shot in stadiums almost a hundred years ago, in the middle of a revolution? What do you think the Irish Government would do if Leinster wanted to become an independent state and overthrow the Irish Government?

Onto the sporting question, I believe the fact that a large stadium like Croke Park not being used as much as possible and losing out on revenue is ludicrous. I say lose the politics, grow up, accept the money and do something constructive with the money.

by Jacqueline Fallon Tue Feb 20, 2007 22:13

In reply to "Tenant Rights":

In defence of myself, I would like to clarify that I am not an 'extreme right wing nationalist' - I'm more inclined to the left.

I am expressing an opinion, that is shared by many, that the playing of "God Save the Queen" in Croke Park is deeply offensive, because of the massacre perpetrated there by the British Queen's infamous force the 'Black 'n' Tans on the 21st November 1920. Not so long ago, GAA supporters and players in the six counties were getting shot by her army. In 2007, in the six counties, there are reports of GAA players and supporters being continually harassed going to and from GAA games in places like Crossmaglen by the British Queen's forces. It is for all these reasons that I'm deeply offended by the words of the English anthem.

Given your choice of words 'dying gasp', no doubt you are an admirer of the Progressive Democrats, and you have graduated with honours from "The Michael McDowell School of Brainwashing".

by Meehawl Wed Feb 21, 2007 14:45

Cosider that the six north-eastern counties of England were under Irish Rule; would the Irish national anthem be allowed to be played in Twickenham ? NO.

by legal eagle Wed Feb 21, 2007 15:06

It was adopted as the anthem of the Irish Free State in 1926 replacing "God save Ireland" the previous anthem from 1919 to 1926 (written by T. D. Sullivan in 1867, and first published December 7th 1867, inspired by Edmund O'Meager Condon's speech on the Manchester Docks. When the three Manchester Martyrs (Michael Larkin, William Phillip Allen, and Michael O'Brien) were executed, the song was adopted as the Fenian movement's anthem.)

and as such (intellectual property) Amhrán na bhFiann may not be sung, recorded, performed, stored in electronic or other medium without the prior written permission of the copyright holders to wit the Irish state. Here you will learn of the purchase of all rights to the song http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/gen121934a.html for £1,200.
Thus you'd have to ask the state for permission to sing it in occupied hypothetical Engurland just the same as here in Croke Park. After all, intellectual copyright is intellectual copyright. Together we will stop the pirates. I suppose that's why hardly anyone knows the words.

by Meehawl Wed Feb 21, 2007 15:28

To Legal Eadle: You are 100% legally and historically correct, however it would be more realistic to state that the Irish national anthem belongs to the Irish People everywhere, legal ownership being vested in our Irish Government.

But that's not my point. To rephrase my question:

"If the six north eastern counties of Ireland were under Irish rule, would the British Government allow the Irish national anthem (with the consent of the Irish government) to be played at Twickenham in a Rugby match there between England and Ireland.

I believe that the answer would still be NO.

by Meehawl Wed Feb 21, 2007 16:21

"If the six north eastern counties of ENGLAND were under Irish Rule, would the British Government allow (with the permission of the Irish Government) the playing of the Irish national anthem at Twickenham between the English and Irish Rugby teams.

The answer would be, I believe, NO.

BTW: It is the decision of the I.R.F.U. whether GSTQ is played at Croke Park on Saturday, not the decision of the G.A.A.

J.J. Barrett this week withdrew his father's All-Ireland medals from the G.A.A. Museum in protest . It is not just RSF who are against GSTQ in Croke Park, but many everyday ordinary Irish people of no particular affiliation right across Ireland, North and South.

Nicky Brennan too has refused to be drawn on GSTQ being played at Croke Park. That means that effectively the GAA will pass over control of Croke Park to the IRFU for the day and allow them to conduct their own affairs.

"I think we made it quite clear", said Brennan, "that we were renting the ground to other associations, we made it quite clear from Day One that we were not going to get embroiled in the whole issue of flags and emblems. We have held that position and it remains the situation this week. "

Not even intervention by the Irish and/or British governments can, therefore, stop GSTQ being played now at Croke Park on Saturday.

Both governments should, I believe, try to quietly persuade the IRFU not to have GSTQ played at Croke Park on Saturday , it would not be a climb-down by anybody but rather a sensible move towards Peace and Enjoyment of the day - and a Thank You by the IRFU to the GAA for allowing them to be tenants, as well as a sign of the maturity of the IRFU and a display of their desire to take an active part in furthering the Peace Process in Ireland. Over to you, IRFU !

by legal eagle iosaf Wed Feb 21, 2007 16:51

I really believe you all have to come together to demand a referendum on the waiving of normal copyright restrictions on the Irish national anthem so that idyllic parents such as the one who brought little Sean to see his first game of GAA in the article above - do not continue as hypocrites - telling thier kids not to download music like pirates yet also expecting them to sing a song without proper permission.

and then we need an inquiry at Dail level reported here everyday in minute insipid yet virile detail - on the true story behind the change to the lyrics.
After all any know-all on my level will not overlook the sly revision of the lyrics by the De Valera regime substituting "Sinne Laochra Gaedheal" for "Sinne Fianna Fáil". The holder of the copyright is as I've explained to you the Irish state - but check out who publishes the new lyrics and music :-
http://www.taoiseach.gov.ie/index.asp?docID=792

cant you see how it comes together? Lastly I'd point out that if Norway is ever invited to play GAA games in Croke Park and the Norwegian crown are in attendance - God save the King will be performed. The Norwegian crown sharing the same anthem. It's an anthem which was used for Tsars, Kaiser and stll is for Lichtenstein.

by iosaf Wed Feb 21, 2007 20:06

I'm sure many of the readers do too. I see no reason why we may legally only listen to the FF Army band recording of the FF anthem. Oh yes - some of you pirates probably have an illegal copy of the Wolfe Tones version. Well you're technically thieves - how much of the Wolfe Tones royalties went to the state?

As the law stands - we do not have the right to perform punk, hiphop mix, deep trance techno versions of Amhrán na bhFiann. Of course we haven't tested it. Not one of us has had a go artistically and creatively at the national anthem. We haven't seen it subverted it. Why? because it like Croke Park is a shiboleeth? well it shouldn't be. Ive provided the evidence that this song wasn't an anthem before, the lyrics are adjusted, the performance rights are restricted - and it only got sung at Croke Park long after the Engurlish left.
Everyone has the legal right to re-mix and subvert God save the King / Queen or royal bollox. This is not a "odd observation" - it is a very serious matter. No-one has copyrighted either the music or the lyrics.

One commentator above thought the copyright exercised by the state through the taoiseach's office really means "in our name". If you believe that you accept Shell doing "your gas". We now have many copyright licenses in use globally. Creative Commons, Copyleft, certain waivings of restricted use - shareware - etc., Not one of these concepts has found reflection in the Irish state. I'd suggest indymedia ireland is the best example of alternative copy licenses in Ireland. Surely a simple change to the copyright exercised by the Irish state would send a positive message. Or do we have to organise a punk version? supported by subverting art work?

by anon Wed Feb 21, 2007 20:53

http://www.google.ie/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=Amhr%C3%A1...meta=

then check destrvkt's take on Amhran na bhFiann (the Irish National Anthem!
www.audioterrorists.com/links.html

http://www.cfourrecords.com/
http://www.cfourrecords.com/releases/releases.html

ah can't find it
destrvkt?

by Paraic Thu Feb 22, 2007 15:53

That Great Fianna Fail Republican TD of Louth, Dermot Ahern TD, Irish Foreign Minister, has spoken out about that match on Saturday "The E.U. has brought the Irish and the English closer together" (Newstalk radio today).

Yes it has, Dermot, it has brought those British and Irish politicians in Brussels on a half a million euros a year beyond in Brussels together, you know, the boys and girls you pal around with !

In fact I cannot remember a single occasion when the same Brussels crowd interested themselves in the Northern Ireland Civil Rights Campaign, they have never spoken a harsh word about British rule in Ireland.

The same Dermot Ahern spoke in favour of the Northern and Southern Soccer bodies the FAI and IFA uniting together to form an All-Ireland FA - I suppose that's his idea of a United Ireland.

He says that he hopes there will be no violence on Saturday - tell that to your colleague the West Brit Garda Boss Michael McDowell, Dermot !

What Irish Foreign Minister Dermot Ahern should be doing right now is calling in the British Ambassador and the IRFU to arrange for GSTQ not to be played at Croke Park on Saturday.

Then he'd be doing his job and then peace and enjoyment of the match would be guaranteed for Sir Anthony O'Reilly & Co., the chief supporters of rugger in Ireland - watch out for hostile reportage on the match protest in the Indo !

Like the rest of his cabinet mates, Ahern is out of touch as he has been in the job and up in the clouds, out of touch with the people for too long.

GSTQ at Croke Park, the Sell out to Shell at Rossport, the Destruction of Tara - all part of a plan to get the Irish ready to accept Capitalist Globalisation on a massive scale by getting us to believe that our heritage and national resources don't really matter that much at all.

Finally Ahern ended by saying: "I hope Ireland win on Saturday". Personally, as a true Irishman I couldn't care less who wins, it's a Brit game, so let the Brits win their own game, then rugger will fade a bit in Ireland - GREAT !

by Meehawl Thu Feb 22, 2007 20:38

I believe that the protest at Croke Park on Sunday will be massive, bit well stewarded and marshalled - and end in Peace.

Then we can all get on with more important national business like:

1. Opposing the sell-out to Shell at Rossport

2. Saving Tara from Destruction by the M3 motorway

3. Getting an historic Catholic -Protestant Government formed after victory in the Northern elections between Sinn Fein and the DUP, with the North governed jointly by Ian Paisley and Gerry Adams under the watchful eyes of the British and Irish Governments as a necessary step of Peace and Reconcialiation leading to a British Withdrawal and a United Ireland as early as about 20 years time. That's the program .

4. The Northern Elections and Joint Catholic-Protestant/ Unionist-Nationalist Government there to be followed by the Republic's elections which look like tossing up a Fianna Fail-Sinn Fein Government - AND WHO BETTER TO KEEP AN EYE ON FIANNA FAIL BUT SINN FEIN !!!

2007 looks like being a year of real practical progress, hopefully a long beautiful Summer - and the Economy, North and South, will become the Best in the World with real genuine Peace and Reconciliation breaking out.

Look forward to it Ireland, look forward to it all my friends.

A Peaceful Saturday in Dublin will sned all the right signals.

by Paraic Fri Feb 23, 2007 00:17

I've just read that the Dublin Grove of Druids are joining in on Saturday's Protests in Dublin in a Protest March to Save Tara.

This is fabulous news, the mainstream media propaganda machines can't credibly "manufacture" "violence" now, not with peace-loving Druids involved.

And they are encouraging visiting English fans to join in and hold hands to Save Tara and support the S2S Campaign too - what magical Wisdom !

And the Save Tara Campaigns too. See:

http://www.indymedia.ie/article/81114&comment_limit=0&c...84458

(I think the irish Druids would have played hurling).

by helpful Fri Feb 23, 2007 01:09

http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&ned=uk&ie=UTF-8&ncl=1...72679

So far only Irish interest groups in the "commonwealth" are reporting the game as a historical clash.
But a quick look at the headline will let you know there are Canadians, South Africans, Australians and Kiwis who won't look at the wind shaking the barley the same way again. Most brit coverage reflects how excited the younger players are to play in one of Europe's biggest stadiums. And that touchstone of conflict apraisal the Christian Science Monitor (a newspaper which serves not only the very small and very odd religious US based denomination which rejects intrusive medicine but after Pinochet got big time political and rates on the same level as the Seattle Intelligencer ) sees it as an opportunity for "peaceful symbolism". & that's what it will be. inside and outside. But they still remember Bloody Sunday -
http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/0223/p06s01-woeu.html
If you're thinking pubsport brits - then SKY aren't worried about the anthem thing http://home.skysports.com/list.aspx?hlid=449574&CPID=25...+talk

If you want to you can go to Google news everyday and use the drop window to select state areas and then search for news using key words. http://news.google.com/ you don't get everything - far from it - but it's the best cache for daily news on a near state basis. You'll find a lot of UK is a repeat of Ireland.. (or the other way round) so this http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&ned=uk&q=croke+protes...+News specifying "protest" and "croke" gave the same results. All in all - minimal coverage. Are you doing this for the Brits' (sorry English) benefit or your own?

by John McMahon - none Wed Jan 30, 2008 21:02 crucamim at yahoo dot co dot uk

Many people are educated largely at taxpayers' expense. Does anyone suggest that, because of that, the State owns those people? Why should receipt of financial assistance from the government call into question the right of the GAA to deny the use of its property to other organisations? Expecially organisations which compete with the GAA? Some years ago the government offered assistance to re-develope Croke Park and attached a condition that it be made available for soccer and rugby. The GAA Confress rejected the offer. At no time did the GAA indicate that it would "pay for" any finance from the government by allowing Croke Park to be used to promote rival products.

by Rebel Mick - none Mon Dec 28, 2009 17:54

I strongly urge we close Croke Park in 2010.The I.R.F.U./F.A.I will have a state of the art facility and I wish them well.But Croke Park is a G.A.A. Stadium and should only be used for Gaelic Games. This was a temporary arrangment and this agreement Must BE UPHELD.

Regards
Rebel Mick