South Belfast ARN

by D Wed Apr 06, 2005 17:14

Did not realise you are at work -

Nevertheless as stated I prefer people to put their name.

If you cannot then I will debate with you more extensively via my e-mail address as above.

Alternatively I can wait until you
can fine usage elsewhere after work.

Given your situation though I will give but a very brief response only this once - but as stated Alternative Avenues for debate will be done as above if the case.

Quote - 'Are you claiming that the SWP always seek the most confrontational actions. rallies in the Village' - -

no - not on the issue of rallies in the Village as already stated they were at the meeting that agreed to meet loyalist reps - without raising any objections.

I have said though there are other vital issues that need to be also addressed and taken into account and other avenues sought other than- in we go for a half a hour- now out we go- slap on the back - didn't we do well - job well done ...

It ain't as simple as that - and thats where that real Politik comes in as explained

Secondly on 'that differing note' - the quote is not aimed solely at the SWP.

Quote - 'Would you be for the calling of a mass rally even if your loyalist contacts opposed it'

Yes.

Cannot keep coming back. So any other points I will try and come come back at some stage early on Saturday -as only time I can do it., unless something comes up -

Logging of

by Anti-confrontationalist Wed Apr 06, 2005 16:41

I'm using the computer while at work, would rather not get into bother in my job by giving my name, no union here to help.

What are you afraid of - a political debate?

by D Wed Apr 06, 2005 16:31

Reminder -

As stated- only will respond to those who put their name - when I find the time

by Anti-confrontationalist Wed Apr 06, 2005 16:06

Davy, you stated in this thread...

"On a differing note, as I think about various issues - the politic of only confrontation ‘at all times’, may it be on issues of Orange marches or other specific local issues I have come to an understanding to - and again believe real politik is needed"

Not sure what you mean here. Are you cliaming that the SWP always seek the most confrontational actions ie. rallies in the Village? This wouldn't fit in with what you claimed was their push for cultural activities instead of the mass rallies on The Make Poverty History stuff. Why do you think that is?

How do you feel your 'real politk' would fit in if the UDA admitted that their members were involved in the murder of a member of the asian community in the Village. Would you be for the calling of a mass rally even if your loyalist contacts opposed it?

I'm against confrontation for the sake of it too and therefore would like to hear your opinion.

by Davy Carlin Wed Apr 06, 2005 16:00

I will reply this one time as you are giving me a good chuckle. I will not reply to you again {as not only do you not put your name} but I believe, if one reads deeper, that you may actually be doing it as so others will attack the SWP.



You Quote -


'As for the meetings with the loyalists. Well I wonder how many people in the ARN (forget about the SWP for a moment) think it is a good idea to meet loyalist leaders when their priority seems to be not to deal with the attacks but to deny that their members have anything to do with them. I am really concerned about this. I am aware from speaking to other ARN members that I am not alone in this.


Not sure what ARN members you are talking to but -


I think ya need to go back to your Muckers, - if any of them have been involved in the ARN for a while- and maybe they will tell you about the 'Collective' decision of the ARN at a public meeting {probably about 15 - 20 of the Key organisation in attendance - in which it was agreed to meet the loyalist reps} as part of a wider strategy -

and incidentally my friend - it should be noted that no objections whatsoever were indeed raised at the meeting in relation to this by ANY SWP member in attendance,


I would suggest you would do well to understand some of the background of the ARN before making such statements as it shows quite simply how little you know of the ARN - but I can understand your driving motivation either to attempt to support the SWP or indeed to attempt to get others to attack them..

Other points you make are just factual incorrect - have not got much time to go into presently - while on others refer back to my original extensive article.

As for , Quote - - - 'the rest of this nonsense cannot be done justice without the assistance of a psychologist and a thesaurus opened on the word buffoon -

Priceless, absolutely priceless. Chuckle Chuckle - almost as good as John Paul.

Had found a mo at my break but that's me - the thing is now getting repetitive from those who have shown that they actually know very little about the ARN. Gone for good

Back to work D

by eeekkkk Wed Apr 06, 2005 14:41

on a certain arms inspector

lovely

'walter mitty'

by Peter Cosgrave Wed Apr 06, 2005 12:51

First point No where on this thread does it say that it is easy to organise these protests. Second point you would be foolish if you didn't believe you must meet the loyalist leaders, all that does is show you are very far removed from reality. Third point why don't you publish your name? , what have you got to hide? is it your membership of a politcal party?

by Red Ant Wed Apr 06, 2005 12:15

Davy Carlin would do well to remember that there are people other than the swp reading this site and that to the ordinary man or woman in the street this sounds absolutely crazy. For the ordinary member of the ARN it is very embarrassing

As far as I can see Mark Hewitt who is one of the people who built the event described at the beginning of the rest of this nonsense pointed out a few very important clarifications regarding an event on the Donegall Road. His clarification was designed to give a view of what people on the ground need to know if they are working in the area around anti-racism. Why pretend that a thing is easier to do than it is. It only demoralises anyone else who is doing work and not finding that similar masses are turning up.

As for the meetings with the loyalists. Well I wonder how many people in the ARN (forget about the SWP for a moment) think it is a good idea to meet loyalist leaders when their priority seems to be not to deal with the attacks but to deny that their members have anything to do with them. I am really concerned about this. I am aware from speaking to other ARN members that I am not alone in this.

The rest of this nonsense cannot be done justice without the assistance of a psychologist and a thesaurus opened on the word buffoon.

by Davy Carlin Tue Apr 05, 2005 18:17

Apart from a few brief SWP anon supporters with little to say, there has been little else forthcoming.

Thanks though to those that voiced support both for oneself and Street Seen.

As stated, I only had until now for debate as have a tight {diary} - shit should not have said that diary word.

Oh and yea my article - this thread - {had everything to do with the SWP}

I therefore have provided ample time for those who wanted to debate to begin that debate.

So I now have to get back to work, and activism - Signing off D.

Will be down in Dublin in a few weeks, would like to meet up with a few heads to discuss a few things - will be in touch

by eeekkk Tue Apr 05, 2005 16:29

he's very open about what he thinks and what he does unlike his nameless critics

i have also seen him a lot of times on tv notably recently and during the bush visit to belfast

he doesn't come across even faintly as a walter mitty type

he keeps us sudderners informed about anti-racist ativity in the wee six pretty effectively

if you disagree then get your finger out and you do it

by John Paul II Tue Apr 05, 2005 16:16

Remember this post? Yes last may Davy decided to give the 'Citizens of Ireland' a blow by blow account of a week, and a bit, of his life. How can anyone take this guy seriously. Read on -


"As for getting out more well I don't know you personally but I suppose you get out a lot then {involved in a lot activity and all that}. For me I try to write a few things for Indymedia {I think it is a good project} so I am not sure if you partake in it more than me {more regular readers would know} not that I am trying to raise any contradiction in that statement therefore.

But on getting out . Here is brief one week of a Diary {which I keep} . I believe firmly that persons also need to have a life outside activism. In doing so I believe one will not burn oneself out but as importantly will also understand life more from many perspectives. So I will use Badman's timely intervention to give a week in my life as an activist.


- tuesday of this week - up for work - 6am -{we are on going strike actions over pay NIPSA} Check and deal with all e-mails, asked to do a meeting in North Antrim {stick in dairy}, After work had dinner with partner then of to local Anti Racism Network meeting {West Belfast Branch} to organise activity for Sat . Back home 9.30pm. Went for walk with partner. 12.30am - 3.am continued writing on a book that is to be published.

Wednesday up for work - 6.am. Check e-mails, dealt with them all, Asked to speak at a cross community meeting in Belfast {stick in Dairy} Take a half day to meet partner for lunch, get stuck into doing some writing, for a local paper, article for Indymedia, and article for Blanket - Contact the media who had been looking press interviews, All done by 6pm. On to another meeting, Home 10pm. Go for walk with partner. Do a bit on my book - Bed 2am

Thursday {Yesterday} - Work up 6am, deal with e-mails, asked to speak in Craigavon and to confirm a speaker fo Derry - get contacted by press re, racial attacks meet them for interviews, Doctors appointment, then meet person re - meeting that I am to speak at { re- ex loyalist and republican prisoners at end of month}. Had dinner with partner, More press interviews. Picked up 6.15 by A Mc Intryre from the Blanket, away to Castle - Wellan do a meeting on ' A radical left'.. Home 10pm - Watched a film with Partner - Do another bit {Part six} of my life in West Belfast for the Blanket {as some things came to mind when listening to persons at the meeting. To bed.

Friday work 6pm - to meet partner for lunch, leave in our films from our recent long weekend break to Spain, {do this article for Indymedia site though before I clock in} - Check e-mail, NIPSA fundraiser to attend, requested to speak at two events, plus various other quieries, Dealt with. Checked my finished articles sent to Mackers for the Blanket. One on the Anti Racism Network and the left, Another on Nipsa but with an Intro on 'Revolutionary parties or not' and another on Republicanism

Then after work go and get our shopping in, will have dinner, go out or , grap a pizza in , or go out with friends {non - political night}

Saturday - up out of bed, check e-mails then down town to Canvass and leafletting for E Mcann, then do SWP stall, then sometimes either go to IPSC or BAWM or SEA event depending, But this time am to speak at an event organised by the West Belfast Anti Racism Network. will be attended by probably over 100 persons and activists. Meet partner after she comes back from her swim with friends. Do some writing for papers, Then friends and family arrive up for our Sat night booze up - have a few beers - to bed about 1am after everyone goes home.

Sunday - up 9am spend several hours writing - usually get phoned by the media or activists in the campaigns {SEA, IPSC, The Blanket, ARN etc} that I am involved in as so we can chat or prepare our diaries for the week.- . 2PM my partner and I either go jogging aroung the park or take a walk up the mountains. dinner 5 - 6pm. Then we do our weekly house work where we clean the house top to bottom. Shower- then some chilled out classical music while we chat {about life and things} and read.

Mon - up for work 6.am, check e-mails, After work leafleting local commuties, one of several meetings from which to prioritise to attend, Home, spend time with partner.

Tuesday - Up for work - 6am, Check emails,
both of us take a half day to go to the pictures then on for a meal. Away to the ARN steering group meeting, a march and a public meeting and requested speakers amongst other things to be dealt with., Home - go for a walk. Do some of my book. If time articles for papers

So I do get out quite a bit and prioritse what I do . What I would say though as with a previous excellent article on Indymedia is that persons need to balance their activism within their life as so to have a life, In doing so one can not only get more done but feel good about doing it. Signing off, Davy Carlin"

Come on folks, this has nothing to do with the SWP and everything to do with Davy's ego.
I too logged on for some political discourse however Davy's embarrasing posts have to be countered.

by Sean - None Tue Apr 05, 2005 15:27

This is getting tiresome. This is a thread that starts off about anti-racism. Then there is just vitriol about the same organisation - that I hadn't been aware of to any extent. Now every post is about them.
Can I read these articles on the web from Street seen?

by Peter Cosgrave Tue Apr 05, 2005 14:59

Oh the poor SWP are being attacked again! Maybe they wouldn't be if they hadn't behaved the way they did in the past (and present). As for political alternatives to the SWP they are too lenghty to go into here scan the archives yourself and make up your own mind but don't kid yourself thinking that the SWP are a political force, they are political parasites that offer nothing to the left in Ireland. Street Seen is a homeless magazine, i have read all issues and the articles are from right across the left political spectrum. The only people i have heard complain about Street Seen are the SWP, who as usual attack something that they cannot control. They more than likely view it as a threat to their miniscule paper sales. Street Seen is also only a new paper it is still beginning to put everything in it's place. Good luck to all at Street Seen, can't wait to see the next one!

by Sean - None Tue Apr 05, 2005 14:11

I didn't think asking questions made you a begrudger. People are posting again about the SWP - it seems an obsession. I am still at college and want to know what political alternatives there are. Someone posts from a magazine called street seen - but what is there about it that politically catches the imagination? And again Dave is there anything that you have written that has some analysis in it? Why did you set it up?

by Davy Carlin Tue Apr 05, 2005 14:00

Good one John Paul I enjoyed that piece - must say though I just stated what I had done as opposed to others saying I had done nothing - as stated, was not going to get into such specific detail - but with the 'photo Shoot' thing, well.

Cheers Sudderner.

Update on the West Belfast ARN welcome pack launch this morning.

Between one hundred and fifty and two hundred attended the launch today in West Belfast which seen Community, Trade Union, NGO and Minority Ethic organisations attending as well as local residents.

This was an excellent turn out and fair play to all those who turned up. More especially to the West Network and all the activists that put in the hard work both on the pack and building the event

The launch was hosted by Sara from the West Network and ARN steering group, and speakers where from the Latin American Solidarity group, with the official launch by Gerry Adams MP for West Belfast.

Again brilliant work by the West Network and solid support from the local community

by sudderner Tue Apr 05, 2005 13:02

feck the begrudgers. i see abuse but no disputing of what you have outlined. but do get someone to edit your posts a bit. the auld grammar is a bit hit and miss. tell all those friends of yours up there in the wee six about indymedia. that way you won't come across as the busiest activist from the same wee six

by Sherlock Holmes Tue Apr 05, 2005 12:58

SWP at it again, how surprising! Such a typical Trot tactic, someone leaves their party so they character assasinate. They have no problems with them when they are in the party, but when they leave the invented problems appear. The reality is that all across the 32 counties of this island the SWP have become an organisation which no-one wants anything to do with. Everytime they set up a new front it is the same tired faces which are used. Every other party or group will get involved in a campaign to offer something. The SWP only get involved to get something from the campaign, be it more members or more paper sales. During a meeting when people are asked to be open and transparent and say what organisations and parties they are from the SWP protest claiming it is a Mcarthyite witch hunt. They are the only people to give out about this, no-one else from any party does. They stand up at meetings claiming to be from different campaigns (yet all demanding the same thing!). The SWP have nothing to offer the left except irritation and embarassment. I'll finish off with a question whoever answers correctly wins a free copy of the Socialist worker. What political party floods meetings in an atempt to take over the organisation or campaign?

by John Paul Tue Apr 05, 2005 12:21

Davy, after reading your post I began to wonder whether there is any need for a mass anti-racism campaign at all. It seems you are doing quite well on your own.

You single handedly initiated and organised the protest in the Village. You alone have been making contacts with workers and trade unionists in the BCH. With your media profile there is no need for press releases or postering. On top of all that you have made all the statutory bodies redundant by offering and providing victim support to those who suffer physical or verbal racist abuse.

Can you raise the dead? Some guy in Rome could do with your help.

by Davy Carlin Tue Apr 05, 2005 11:59

In relation to me responding - refer to my last post. -


Away to West Belfast Anti Racism welcome pack launch. Signing of

by Sean - None Tue Apr 05, 2005 11:45

From what you said there was less than 50 people there and no political or community persons from that area. Again in your last reply you want to have a go at the organisation you were once a member of. I asked if you have written anything with politics in that would inspire some one to try and change the society they live in? Could you give me a link to it?

by Davy Carlin Tue Apr 05, 2005 11:01

I agree with the clarification? I think you are reading a different thread my friend.

As for the organisation - I reckon you are not SWP - but for those in the SWP - then ask the PC for all the correspondence I had with them over the last year and a half of my time in the SWP. I am not raising any points that I had not raised with both them and other leading cadre.

As for anything political to say or anything with any meat - well that shows your on to attempt to stir up things - before you head of to work or something.

Suffice to say though to date I have had around a dozen contacts in relation to the article - which has seen two more key activists now involved in Street Seen.

Therefore to clarify - I will only reply to those who both put their name - and- whom I believe are not only interested in stirring things up.

I really only have the remainder of this afternoon for any extensive debate - as I am away shortly to a meeting -and tied up for a few days after that.

by Sean - None Tue Apr 05, 2005 09:47

This is not a debate but a 3 thousand word rant. From what I can see you now agree with the clarification. However you spend most of the time saying how bad the organisation you left has become (since you left it - of course). Do you have anything political to say? Have you wrote anything with some meat in?

by Davy Carlin Mon Apr 04, 2005 15:59

or at a later date

by Davy Carlin - Street Seen Mon Apr 04, 2005 14:09

Good to see the SWP back on Indymedia. Will just reply though to the ones that put their name.

So will start with Mark

Have to say though I don't think the disaster in the Village would have come around by anything I had done - indeed it was widely acknowledged where that disaster would have come from if the SWP had of got their way - which they didn't. Read on, again
.

Firstly though I had attended to give some clarification on the recent demo but with the attempted revisionism of myself having just attended for a ‘photo opportunity’, and having done nothing else, I will therefore be more specific - although still brief as it is other issues that I wish to deal with more especially

As for Debate - Indymedia is a medium for it, so I will raise various points for debate now that Mark is seemingly willing to engage


Briefly on the Protest, as my main concern is to take this opportunity to open up debate on other issues with the SWP, although this issue of the protest also touches on important issues such as loyalism etc that are important to debate.

The protest

After news came out of the attack it was I who emailed the ARN steering group of which a number are in the S/Belfast ARN and stated we need a visual reply to this attack urgently. I later e-mailed a second time, this time solely to the S/Belfast ARN people, again stressing the need for a quick response. After that I then phoned Mark and left a message on his machine stating the same. Then later I yet again phoned Mark and got through and asked him again if a visual reply could be organised with great urgently – as also, as I stated to him, that I could plug the event on the BBC and ITV who where coming to my home to do interviews- this as well as stating to get it out to the ARN Network.

I had also contacted our press officer to get out a statement

Mark then phoned back later stating the protest would be ‘in the Belfast City Hospital Car park’ – which I now presumed he meant at the gates of it where it was held. With that e-mails where sent out and our press officer did a brilliant job publicising it as it was advertised in both Nationalist and Unionist dailies. He also was able to get the Mayor of Belfast to attend and indeed contacted me to do radio interviews, which I did once again to plug the event on the daytime radio bulletins. In the meantime activists both on the ARN steering group and in the South Belfast ARN where busy on the phones contacting people, with Mark etc sending out e-mails to build the event.

With that, support came not only from the North and West Belfast ARN but also further afield and from Street Seen

The ARN now termed a movement has got to the stage due to its stand and way of working that many activists and local people will support it calls for support and solidarity.

The demo itself of course was not like the marvellous community participated demos in West and North Belfast that were hundreds strong, but I believe there was around 60 people who attended it through - out the period of the protest. I had asked Mark half way through the demo as to how many where at it and he said 46 -47, this was after and before some people came and went .As for those in attendance and support – there was a representative both from the local community {who had been there at the talk I gave in the Village} and another who works closely with that loyalist community and indeed was our point of contact to them at the height of the attacks. Also some local residents did stop with us for a while on passing, while others waved from across the street and again others whom I know from the locality beeped and waved from cars, as did others, indeed quite a few showing such support.

Similar support from individual porters and domestics who live in the Village and who work in the Belfast City Hospital {BCH} was also forthcoming, although initially verbal, this through my continual engagement with such BCH local workers and trade Union members, more especially increasing over this specific period, again as I see also as a priority.

As for political reps only the Alliance attended, and I had been informed that Bob Stoker {Unionist} was to, and had attended, although now I have found out he did not – {although there was some one there who was the spit of him}.

Fundamentally though the demo was endorsed both by local community and political representatives and indeed I had contacted other such persons later on - at our press officer’s request.

In addition to this a most important factor that is often forgotten in these cases is seeing what one can do practically for the victim. Such rallies are important but many do tend to see this as the only priority – then they leave the area and go home - job done.

For me I had seen the victim also as a priority and I had both met and spoke to the victim over those days, offering support and solidarity and asking if I could provide any assistance. There was assistance sought - which was provided.

Therefore not only did I see the demo as a priority by quickly and with great urgency initiating its organisation, but also provided support and assistance to the victim as yet another priority. The third priority, as stated, {I see and do} is to seek engagement and dialogue, with locals or – and local representatives more especially when within such ‘tight communities’. Which I have been doing over many years and did here – although it had often been done to the ridicule at times of those ‘more Revolutionary Socialists’ for engaging with the loyalist working class communities and their representatives..

So my friend - a tad more than turning up to a photo shoot as you had attempted to revise.

{On a differing note, as I think about various issues - the politic of only confrontation ‘at all times’, may it be on issues of Orange marches or other specific local issues I have come to an understanding to - and again believe real politik is needed.}

Therefore this protest came in a far different climate as to the time when the attacks where at their height previous in the same area. On that occasion the Irish SWP leadership who where in London at that time argued for us to go in. All logical thought of those who knew what was happening on the ground and the history of those behind those attacks knew such a call was madness. Therefore support from the community and indeed from the network was not forthcoming for such madness and we worked other paths to bring it to an end. Indeed when we actually had the support of the trade union movement, the churches, the minority ethnic organisations and much more - and with myself actually being invited into the area by local community and political reps, - therein followed two nights of rioting and roadblocks in the area which unionists attributed to me for simply speaking there against racism.

Similar as thought, and as stated before {much later} such understanding came from those close to {and who dis - agreed with} the horses mouth. That is, that there would indeed have been the typical knee jerk re action from those involved which would have been - to escalate. So we would have gone in - then out - to go back home and let others face the brunt for our actions – This situation has happened before elsewhere when the handbook of tactics was read from and followed to the dot. In this case it would have been even more disastrous – many knew that, and even those closest to the events on the ground had raised such independently later on.

Since then there has been increased on going dialogue and engagement within the wider loyalist community done primarily by myself in relation to the ARN, which has brought some small but nevertheless positive results and created in large part that ‘differing climate’ as stated by themselves. This in regard to anti racism and their and our various actions and initiatives, and that support voiced or pro active for them.

Indeed I had been hammered by the left for such engagement, yet I found that I now deal in real politik and not that taken solely from a textbook. I state again I do not see loyalism as progressive but there are more progressive persons within it, mainly centred around those who believe in ‘Community or Christian Socialism’ etc. Therefore such dialogue and engagement is essential, as is a quick visual response, as is real support to the victims.

Again gone for me are the days when solely we call a march through the city centre, with placards and by and large the same speakers etc or solely the organising of a picket – although all essential. The day and daily politik is also a priority for me, as is real support and solidarity in such instances. As is getting to and attempting to tackle the direct root of the cause, in a real, not abstract or rhetorical way, may it be through engagement or indeed through mobilisation or confrontation. No all embracing tactic or handbook can cover all instances in all areas in differing times.


Therefore various avenues are open in dealing with such circumstances and for me there will be no holy book of tactics that will be followed in all instances with blind faith. Of course though, as stated before, much will be the same – but not all.

My understanding to such events have come through that daily contact and that growing political understanding of a world and politics outside of a strictly to be followed and pre written ideology.

Moving on to other issues now, firstly that of poverty. Again I believe in real politik as I had risen at the recent E Mc Cann meeting.

Real Politik means dealing with the reality as it is now.

For example while it was important engaging and debating about how the over throw of capitalism through a Proletarian Revolution etc is how to get rid of poverty in its entirely, as I had done while in the SWP – I believe the issue also needs to be tackled in a real and daily way as it exists and thrives.

Therefore my involvement in Street Seen, which is primarily an Anti Poverty paper but initiates and supports other issues, is real politik. While building with others for a mass Anti poverty event in Belfast in June we are engaged in immediate social and solidarity projects that make an ‘immediate’ difference in people lives, in respect to poverty.

{Having just attended this morning the organising committee for that said event in Belfast and having been there from the start both on the Organising and Communications committees - it was good to see the SWP turn up today. Albeit as a priority to pubilise the G8 alternatives and a MPH meeting they have now called - although there where some decent intervenetions.

I was a bit surprised though as while I was arguing hard for a mass rally in Belfast - which again was opened up to discussion this week as people again had doubts -

the SWP leading cadre though stated, I quote, 'that mass rallies have been done to death' and instead argued for a 'cultural event'?

Therefore I had found myself in the bizarre position of two NGO's -Christian Aid and one other arguing hard my corner for a mass rally - while the SWP arguing instead for a cultural event as the priority}.

Although they did finally back my position at the end when more NGO hands went up in support.

And they attempt to call me a liberal at times?

Therefore I have moved on from at times abstract and solely long - termism Socialism to real daily politik while still being a Socialist and arguing and attempting to win others to that view.

This moves me on to the point of the Movement. Now while I had welcomed the SWP for opening up their paper in part to debate it seems already to date that the re -active mindset again is bubbling underneath within some. Nevertheless I will attempt some form of engagement here – only with those that put their name – others can waffle, rant or whatever but I will not reply - and viewers can take that on board.

The Movements as I have stated needs to be open, accountable and democratic and one should not fear the diversity with them. I will start initially with just one area of debate as I have much more to discuss when Mark or whomever comes back. It is that of working equally within such Movements and ‘allowing’ concerns to be raised. As you are aware Mark as per my correspondence on this matter including to the Political leadership of the SWP - that genuine activists concerns should at the very least be listened to in that very context of genuine activists.

There is a difference between Sectarians raising concerns to be sectarian and genuine activists raising concerns through genuine concern – many of which may be involved actively building the campaign but may be in a differing party or none.


I had cited a couple of cases – such as that as the key figure within the IPSC in Belfast. This was an activist who spoke on joint platforms with us, put his heart and Soul into building the Anti War Movement and did the graft on the ground. Yet when this one time he had a major concern and I raised it both with our Northern organiser and other leading Northern cadre the response ranged from ‘Sure he is only a fucking Shinner’, or ‘ there is the aul Shinner coming out in you’ {for simply supporting a genuine activist’s right to voice concerns – whatever party he – she was in, or none}. Similar had been done with those who had Anarchist views and again with those who had Liberal views whom we had started to work with actively. The distaste though for Anarchists had seen even the word spat out by some, and the eyes where rolled when Alliance type – liberals- raised points.

{Yet the smiles to their faces was not reflected in acknowledging their concerns if raised. Similar as it has taken for oneself but a brief word or acknowledgement with and of SWP activists - therefore having had immediately known who was genuinely fraternal and those who wished to appear to be – something I have always been able to do since becoming deeper involved in politics.}

And so if it were not the SWP view it was dismissed when they had gone – indeed while ‘cannon fodder’ at times to build our campaign – their concerns on many occasions would be simply ignored or dismissed if they did not fit in with ours. Similar in part as has been attempted with myself being deemed a Republican, Loyalist lover, Anarchist, Liberal etc – such finger pointed ‘direction’ of course can work within such a small tight ideological party – although quite a few would not be won to that accusation.

However that is of little consequence within the wider movements where actions speak louder than back room words- and that was the case when the attacks and dismissiveness where directed to the activists as arose above.


I had said then and indeed rose continually that this was creating bad feeling as activists became aware of this – this in tandem with seeing the dogmatic, or down your throat approaches people where also increasingly seeing in some {who had not had that before,}.

Genuine activists therefore where stating in growing numbers that they would not work with such individuals. This was of course dismissed as we where ‘on a roll’, influencing well above our modest numbers.

Although while I knew that as we where creating bigger initiatives in which decisions where increasingly being influenced by those who we do not elect for afar, various activists where seeing that new change in part as arrogance, as we pulled more and more people around us and created those bigger and bigger initiatives.

I had said that a growing number would not work with any new SWP initiatives or with certain individuals. They will work and support though the already established BAWM and ARN, as they are aware that many similar genuine activists already work and have worked within or supported such from the start. I suppose the evidence in that will be the S.E.A in Belfast and as to how many of those key activists will give active support. I had remembered the SEA meeting we had pulled in Belfast and the many key activist from around the movements that lent support – I know that at least a dozen of them will no longer work with the SWP on any new SWP initiative. Indeed half a dozen of those key figures have now got involved in the Street Seen project, which is increasingly seeing representation from across the movement involved.

I do not know who attends or is involved actively in the SEA in Belfast but would suggest that as the SWP -those that they have around them on that project are those that would support the SWP, as it is now seen simply in that vein in Belfast

I and others are still seeing a few still with that frame of mind as raised above, while of course there are many really good fraternal activists there as there is in all parties. And of course there is the usual political attacks on oneself by some in the back rooms although more increasingly and interestingly, --- and this is the crunch --- on Jon Glackin - who I will not only stand shoulder to shoulder with but in front of those ever sharpening knifes of some, if they continue.

Such ways of working and mindset of old will be faced down by many in the wider movements – as it seems it has not been, within certain ideologies and parties. As I stated before maybe some just know no other way, while others have become influenced by it.

Jon like many others including myself was once a long-term SWP member as is a genuine activist and a socialist who puts the graft in on ground.


I do though still have quite a few friends in the SWP North and South and we are in regular contact, and it is their decision of course to remain there. I do hope – genuinely- that change can be effected, as there are a lot of genuine activists there, but I do see a worrying increase in such attitude etc, that I believe will be detrimental to the organisation. On the other hand I do see some positive changes - again I have many other points to raise in relation to the Movement but will let Mark etc come back before I go into various points of concern and how I as an individual see the Movement going forward.

The SWP state that they are for debate – some of the responses to date that I have been hearing as well as reading as above shows some are still not yet ready for it – but one can only try. I have a full diary for the next week or so – but will come back in time if there is a named response – If not I am sure this debate and the many other political and organisational issues that need to be aired will arise again at some stage and will be happy to partake in that debate either here and now

by . Sat Apr 02, 2005 12:36

I still can’t understand what Davy wants to debate with Mark.

Mark has factually outlined what happened at the demo, it is in complete contradiction to Davys report. The only debate can be over the facts.

Unfortunately Davy has a bit of a history of exaggeration. This wasn’t a major fault as it mostly referred to secondary issues but in the context of very difficult and frankly dangerous anti racism work in the Village exaggeration could lead to disaster.

Mark is quite right to correct him.

by Davy Carlin Sat Apr 02, 2005 12:08

Some mindsets never change. Red Ant – my friend - temper temper, oooh so easy and sooooo predictable, -had thought though certain SP would only have been so.

Ain’t going to lecture anyone only to give further clarification on Marks points, as he had done to mine, but my main interest {by} is to debate on various issues now Mark is willing to engage.


I must say though I do like the photo opportunity bit, reminds me of the one that I was just parachuted into the ARN at its height.

Although Mark is just recently involved in the ARN he would of course know its history - as you would Red Ant - but I will provide links with my article for your enjoyment.

After the clarification - I shall raise the issue of Poverty, of real politick, of loyalism and indeed the way of working within the movement and various other issues in relation to the SWP.

I have previous on Indymedia debated with Anarchists, Republicans, SP and liberals and I am glad Mark is seemingly now willing to engage in discussion and debate on Indymedia..

I will not find time to do it until tomorrow as very strict diary at the minute, meetings interviews, writing and work etc - but it will go up and the debate can commence for which I will set aside some time.

PS - I must say though, while in The SWP in Belfast - Indymedia was considered ' A Sewer for Anarchists - and 'A Swamp' amongst other things, for which I was to keep away from – but good to see some more SWP involvement which is welcomed.

PSS - I am a Repubilcan, An Anarchist, A liberal and a cosier up to Loyalism amongst others that have been doing the rounds in the SWP - but dishonest -well thats a new one, thanks for letting me know that it may come in handy in time. D

by . Fri Apr 01, 2005 21:00

Davy, what debate are you going to have? there are only facts.

How many on the demo?
where did they come from?

Well done all who where on the demo that really happened.

by red ant Fri Apr 01, 2005 20:35

Did you organise the protest on the Donegall Road on Thursday? I was on it and I know who did organise it so I'll be interested to hear your version.

If you're honest and tell us that you had nothing to do with it other than turning up for a photo opportunity then I have another question. What authority have you to lecture people on how it was organised and who took what initiative and who contacted who as you've threatened to do?

I was at a protest that had about 40 people at its height, where people understood that local people would be afraid to come out and where after the event the politicians appeared in the Irish News today giving excuses about why they weren't on it (see link). What f**king protest were you on.

You were dishonest when you were in the SWP and leaving it hasn't improved you.

by skafrican Fri Apr 01, 2005 19:30

The phillipino nurse who died, commited suicide after racist harrassment at her work in Lisburn.

The christian nurse had fled her own country, the phillipines after persecution from muslim militia, her brother was murdered by muslim extremists.

The nurse was told she was going to be deported back to the phillipines and that her work permit, and PIN number would be withdrawn. She worked for a cutthroat private nursing agency, who cut her wages from £9, to £4 an hour just before she died.

She complained to NIPSA union officials about the racist harrassment, and union representative Patricia McKeown met with government officials after the nurse hanged herself in the new year.

by Davy Carlin Fri Apr 01, 2005 12:23

Good to see you putiing some interesting political points on Indymedia - hope more SWPers can follow suit.

Sorry about the brief post above as had not time to elaborate as I do not now - but will come back in detail tomorrow as hoping to get to Dublin tonight to meet up with a few people.

On Clarification - I disagree with some points raised and also believe mark has been mistaken in part.

I will tomorrow state as to where this initiative actually originated from, how it was publicised and how - who -attended and who within the loyalist community was contacted.etc

I will deal also with other issue of poverty etc.

I will also take the opportunity to raise what I see is the SP pattern {Belfast } that is now emerging in the SWP here - that is various good activists embracing the movement and to or three mindsets - of defence and re act.

Look forward to this debate and will respond to those SWP under their own name - and already have a feeling of who will respond

Will post tommorrow. Must dash

by Gilbert Jeannon - UNISON: ( Race Committee ). Fri Apr 01, 2005 11:27

In accordance to the wishes of friends and family there will be a vigil held for a worker from the Philipines, who died due to management harrasssment.

Leaving from to her place of work. from Jury's Hotel Belfast at 3:00pm today.

This vigil will be run in accordance to the wishes and culture of her fellow workers and family.

Please attend in solidarity with her family and friends.

by . Thu Mar 31, 2005 23:55

Mark makes an important point. we have to know what the real situation is. There has been to much hype from some people about the opposition to race attacks. It is very difficult to raise your head in the Village and there are real social issues in the background. Thanks for the touch of reality Mark.

by Mark Hewitt - SWP, ARN Thu Mar 31, 2005 22:13 southbelfast.arn at gmail dot com

I think some clarification is needed on tonights protest.
The South Belfast ARN group called the protest in response to a vicious attack on an Asian man in the Village Area last weekend.
Previously the protests we have held in response to such attacks have taken place just outside the area, mainly in mixed areas.
We made a decision to step into the Village area on the basis of encouraging local people to identify with anti-racism and see that it is possible to have a voice against such bigotry.
We approached 1 or 2 local groups that were not still on their Easter Holidays and got the verbal support of David Ervine. We were unable to poster the main areas of the village for various reasons. As it was the protest was built by emails and phone calls.
We were delighted to get just under 50 people to the vigil. Mostly were from South Belfast, and a couple from the ARN groups in North and West.
Hardly anyone (if any at all) attended from the Village. There were no local community and political representatives and no local residents from the area. The (Alliance) Mayor of Belfast did attend. It's important to understand politically why this is the case in order for us to build on tonights success. Paramilitary loyalism still has a strong grip in the area and people are still cautious in standing up to racist thugs who probably have connections with loyalist groups.
Nevertheless we were able to talk to onlookers and begin a debate about how to take on the problem of racism and other blights in the area - poverty and bad housing. What we could start to do in the South Belfast ARN is build stronger links with community groups in the area and encourage unions in the strategically important City Hospital to take up the fight against racism.