Crime rate is out of control.

by Pete Sun May 29, 2005 21:19

I blame the doo gooders, we had a victory for the ordinary decent people this week when those armed thugs got what they deserved, straight away the Joe Costellos and Co started whining and its good to know that they are only the vocal minority , the Garda force is expected to deal with crime, yet when scumbags are arrested they go whining to Costello and Co and Amnesty why sould the garda be bothered, back the Garda to do their job like they did this week and stop backing the Criminals and scum. The police force in this country is as good as the best thats about internationally and the majority do their job unarmed in an increasingly dangerous society. Dont tie their hands and then blame them for inaction

by Raymond McInerney - Global Country of World Peace Sun May 29, 2005 21:35 raymond.mcinerney at ul dot ie Limerick 086 0638611

The Enlightened Sentencing Project (TESP) is offering a consciousness-based approach to criminal rehabilitation. They use the Transcendental Stress Management program and proven programs for stress reduction, including neuro-muscular integration exercises (yoga) and neuro-respiratory techniques.

The graduates from this program report a remarkable transformation in their lives. They are moving and inspiring. Anecdotal evidence is complemented by ongoing research on participants in the TESP program. Psychological tests are administered pre and post-participation. A study is being undertaken to gauge the long-term results of the program as far as it affects recidivism rates.

by Al Mon May 30, 2005 00:36

Im all for rehabilitation and in certain circumstances the cost would probable be less than having people spend their lives in the justice system however there is also a need for justice to be served for the victim and that requires compensation and/or punishment.
If there is no penalty then why not commit the offence?

by Garda Pat Mon May 30, 2005 13:38

1. Most of our overtime is on weekends doing the routine mopping up after pub closing.
The governement has yet to put any real onus on pubs to stop serving people who are already so drunk that they will become a public nuisance outside.
They make more money, and we have to deal with the drunken behaviour.

2. despite being thin on the ground, there's still plenty of us 'minding' ministers.

3. our colleagues in the Press office, instead of doing police work, are busy spinning tales to put things "in the right light" e.g. anonymous security sources linking the Lusk robbers to the IRA.

4. our representative body, the GRA likewise is more about appearance than substance, and they have yet to grow a spine and demand the resources we need. We haven't got re-inforced cars despite the number of our members killed in the past few years.
We haven't got any of the real measures we need to tackle serious crime, just wave after wave of rhetoric and stunts to crack down on minor loutishness, especially in areas where people are more likely to vote.

5. Gardai doing office duties that could be done by non-gardai. Why put someone through Templemore just to mind the phone or even work in the press office? those members could be out on the street or working on a case.

by Dalkey boy Mon May 30, 2005 13:41

an armed raid on a post office... that gets a crack garda team....

a council housing estate in fear of hardmen with shotguns... tough luck.

So long as it's not the money of the state or the banks being stolen... it's not a priority.

Don't go asking people to back up the cops until the cops start backing up the people.

by CJH Mon May 30, 2005 14:00

TP > TE

Where TP is the Time needed to draw up and implement a decent Plan to tackle crime, and it's causes

and TE is the time between elections...

So long as the Gardai are only accountable to the government, and not to the people, they will not adopt any policies that might prove risky around election time.

Therefore, it's all short term reactions...

by Al Mon May 30, 2005 14:11

If the gardai are answerable to the government and elections are coming up doesnt that make the government answerable to the people?
Regardless of our personal opinions this government was chosen by the people and its the people that will decide its fate.
If the Gardai were directly answerable to the people do you think the people should have control over the Gardai? There are 12000 Gardai, how many career criminals?

by Eh Aye Mon May 30, 2005 15:19

Are you seriously suggesting that a majority of the population are criminals? What a lame excuse.

Is that why we can't have a policing board in the 26 counties?

Is that why there's no oversight except by token reviews by a reactionary cabinet?

In the US a lot of sherrifs have to face an election to retain their posts.
If they do a good job, then the people retain them, if not then they get replaced. They have to do the right thing for the community, not by the governor, or congressman. It's not good enough to simply pull a stunt in the election year. When people get to pick their own sherrif, then it is

Obviously, nobody is suggesting that the public gets to pick every single cop.
It could be done here that the higher ranks have to face some sort of public vote of approval in order to retain their job, or proceed up the ranks.

As it stands in Ireland promotions to the rank of superintendent and above have to be approved by the Cabinet. So they know which side their bread is buttered on, and it's not necessarily about doing what's best for the public.

Do you really think that's a better situation?
Or do you just no believe in democracy?

by Eh Aye Mon May 30, 2005 15:19

Are you seriously suggesting that a majority of the population are criminals? What a lame excuse.

Is that why we can't have a policing board in the 26 counties?

Is that why there's no oversight except by token reviews by a reactionary cabinet?

In the US a lot of sherrifs have to face an election to retain their posts.
If they do a good job, then the people retain them, if not then they get replaced. They have to do the right thing for the community, not by the governor, or congressman. It's not good enough to simply pull a stunt in the election year. When people get to pick their own sherrif, then it is

Obviously, nobody is suggesting that the public gets to pick every single cop.
It could be done here that the higher ranks have to face some sort of public vote of approval in order to retain their job, or proceed up the ranks.

As it stands in Ireland promotions to the rank of superintendent and above have to be approved by the Cabinet. So they know which side their bread is buttered on, and it's not necessarily about doing what's best for the public.

Do you really think that's a better situation?
Or do you just not believe in democracy?

by John Mon May 30, 2005 18:05

This is all a bit hysterical. These questions are best approached by examining the aggregate figures, not listing individual crimes which could be done in any country for any year. The facts are: (a) the crime rate has fallen in Ireland each year since 1996 with the exception of the years 2001 and 2002 (in these two years the Gardai introduced a new computerised system for recording crime, which may or may not explain the increase in these years). There was a 25 per cent fall in the crime rate between 1996 and 2000, this was then totally reversed between 2000 and 2002 (possibly or possibly not because of the new computerised recording system), but the falling trend resumed in 2003 and 2004. The falling trend is continuing in 2005, the first quarter figures showed a large fall compared with the first quarter of 2004 (b) the crime rate in Ireland is about 25 per cent lower than it was in the early 1980s (c) Ireland has one of the lowest crime rates in the developed world - its about one-third the level in countries like England, Scotland, Denmark, Finland, Netherlands - the homicide rate and attempted homicide rate in Ireland is actually the lowest in the developed world according to the UN Human Development Report published in July 2004 (d) the detection rate in Ireland is around 35 per cent to 40 per cent - in England its around 20 per cent and 18 per cent in Denmark. I detect a certain inconsistency on the part of leftists in regard to crime figures. Some leftists claim falsely that Ireland has a high crime rate and that this is due to inequality, poverty, neo-liberal economic policies. Other leftists like journalist Vincent Browne and TCD criminologist Ian O'Donnell accept that Ireland has a low crime rate and instead attack the FF/PD Government for increasing the number in prison at a time of low and falling crime rates.

by Al Mon May 30, 2005 18:36

Yes, thats exactly what I am suggesting. im suggesting that the Majority are criminals! Of course Im not you fool. Im suggesting that theres more than 12000 criminals in Ireland. Thats less than 1% of the population.
Are you seriously suggesting that a majority of the population are criminals? What a lame excuse. IN answer to your quetions:

1. Policing boards made up of local councilers and politicians. They are in place because forces in England are seperate to eachother, have seperate budgets, officers, etc. Why would Ireland require a policing board? We are a unified force. A Garda has to leave the country to be outside his jurisdiction. We have one commisioner for the whole country.

in the US a lot of rural/small towns elect sheriffs however the deputies are not elected. The reasoning behind this is to have officers within the town looking after town affairs. State authorities and officers still have jurisdiction over these towns. The fact that the sheriff is elected has resulted in many unfair actions. The result of this is that the towns people often feel above the law and the sheriff has to thread a fine line as he is a politicion not just a law officer. It results in unfair decisions by the officer as the sheriff is constantly running a popularity contest and decisions could be based on winning votes as apposed to enforcing fair law. Consider an outsider accused of a law by a townsperson. The outsider cant vote there however the towns-man and his friends and family can.

Your view that Gardai of officer rank should get public votes of confidence has some merit however that could lead to a situation like sheriffs as above. This could also lead to officers declining certain posts if they are considered tougher than others or in an area not considered as friendly to police officers as others.

You are wrong about promotions having to be approved. They dont. Only the positions of deputy/assistant commissioner has to be approved and that is because they are still officially Chief Superintendents. Once the commissioner retures all deputy/assistant commisioners can be relocated back to posts as chief superintendents.

Your question about democracy strikes me as strange. Are you not the one accusing the government of cheating the people? Wasnt I the one that mentioned democracy?
I believe in democracy, of course I do. Thats why I believe the majority of Irish people agreed with the recent Garda actions, I agree that the majority of people are in favour of the Gardai and the powers we are granted. I agree that the government has power because it was given by the majority of the people.

Voting for Gardai could result in people being forced to vote a certain way by criminal elements. If the Gardai tried to stop this then we would be accused of rigging votes. Let me put it another way. When the complaints board was first introduced a Garda was automatically suspended while the complaint was investigated. This resulted in a known drug dealer giving prostitutes drugs in return for them making complaints against male Gardai on the grounds of sexual assault, etc. This worked for the criminal as the station in question had 66% of its officers suspended. Thats the problem, any well meaning action or system is always abused by those that simple want their own criminal way.
Our asylum system is abused, our social system is abused. these are well meaning systems to help those that need it but there will always be those that only see a chance for themselves.

by Nicolo Mon May 30, 2005 20:52

Al,

sorry for trying to get you like this but could you advise me re incitement to hatred legislation.

Can an event be banned under this legislation? or is the legislation only in place to charge peopl after an event

I am not planning to break the law but some of your colleagues i feel are trying to mess us about

by thinking why didn't you do woodwork? Mon May 30, 2005 23:54

& what point does crime become a career?
& what point does being a Garda become a career?

Now kids, you face tough choices.
You could choose the "precarity" option, and work without security and pension and long lasting pension and health providence like most people...

OR
you could choose either of the "criminally related" job options. One grants you a certain immunity to breaches of civil and human rights, and the vague possibilities of promotion, carrying a firearm, doing a dangerous driving course, dating a nurse and being shunned by most people at the supermarket and raising kids that disown you in late adolesence.
The Other grants you the possiblity of being incarcerated, getting tattooed, being marginalised yet never needing to fill out tax forms and winning the respect of uncounted throngs for emulating on a regular basis the escapades of the best paid actors of Hollywood.

YOUR CHOICE.
always was.

by Al Tue May 31, 2005 03:40

sorry for trying to get you like this but could you advise me re incitement to hatred legislation.
Can an event be banned under this legislation? or is the legislation only in place to charge peopl after an event

- Yes to both. There is more than one act that looks at this area and between them they pretty much cover all angles. A basic method of looking at it would be to advertise, distribute or campaign with the intent of urging a negative feeling towards a certain type of person however that is a very simple way of looking at it as there are exceptions due to freedom of speech, etc.
The example that is used the most often would be to place a sign up urging people to kill all homosexual people. that would be incitement to hatred. Putting a sign up stating that all travellers are drunken animals and we need to wipe them out. One is urging illegal action resulting in harm based on a certain persuasion, the second is making negative and false comments to turn opinion. Im thinking of why you would be looking at this and the only thing I can think of would be the flags at the upcoming match. If I had to make a choice I would say that could be considered however I think other legislation would probable fit the bill more. Im certain that there is leglisation to stop the flags being brought in based on the history and current volatile situation there. Also the fact that the flag doesnt belong to the nations playing the match. However saying all that I wont be there and have no say so I have no idea if it will even be an issue.
If you can give me an idea of the scenario you are thinking of I could give a better answer.

by Nicolo Tue May 31, 2005 12:09

Al,

the scenario is as follows;

we were hoping to stage a street demo which would build a mock house (palestinian home) and then demolish same to show the illegal actions of the israeli state. We were working for weeks with Dublin city council jumping through hoops meeting every demand and then the gardai say that under these acts they are banning the event.

We have taken legal advice and will challenge this in the high court, its a demo against a government which continually breaks international law in land illegally occupied. The demo is against an illegal activity. Our view is that all the demos that take place could in fact incite hatred, even state events such as events to remember the 1916 rising etc could incite hatred against the british state.

I'm afraid Al, that your colleageus in pearce street seem to be following political orders to do eveything to avoid embarrassing Israel.

Again we are protesting against a governemnt which carries outillegal activity.

by Devil Dog Tue May 31, 2005 14:15

a mock homicide bombing of a bus or a pizza parlour by someone who lives in the house? Bit tricky to simulate guts and amputated limbs, I know, but I'm sure you guys n' gals are up to it.

by Al Tue May 31, 2005 16:23

Demolished how? Are importing a tank? ;) If your portraying Israel as murderers, etc then yes its incitement. Its a tricky situation trying to decide between keeping calm and incitement and peoples right to express themselves. Where does one end and one start?

by Severance Tue May 31, 2005 17:17

"If your portraying Israel as murderers, etc then yes its incitement. "

---so you're saying that Israel can do what it wants (as it does) and if anybody complains about their abominable human rights record that''s "incitement" . I doubt you are as ignorant as you sound but your interpretation of "incitement" would go down well in the fourth Reich. Tough shit on the flag issue don't think you'll be able to fabricate a law quickly enough to repress that campaign.

Hypocrites like you no doubt would think that portraying democratically elected republicans as murderers isn't incitement.

Devil-Dog, you're as intelligent, so activists equal suicide bombers now, the depths of your political sophistication continue to astound.

by Devil Dog Tue May 31, 2005 17:36

You're not EEEEKKKK trying to do some Lou Reed reference, are you?

Either way, no matter.

Don't know where the need to introduce Republicans comes into it but to address this point:

Marty from Derry, Grizzly, Marty from Kerry and Patsy fra Glasgie are all either present or past members of the IRA Army Council. As such, they are senior leaders of a murderous terrorist organisation. The fact that they have been elected says as much about their voters as anything else. How is it hypocritcal to portray them as murderers when they and the organisation they lead have been responsible for outrageous acts of slaughter?

Now if that incites you, too bad - I guess the truth hurts.

I love your jibes at people's intelligence - I guess it's only fair to conclude you're quite insecure about your own if you feel the need to do so.

As for my point to Nicolo - what I was attempting to do was to introduce some context into the Israeli practice of demolishing houses of homicide bombers - they don't just pick a house and say "let's knock it down".

Nowhere did I compare "activists" (I'm assuming you're referring to Nicollo and his fellow protestors here) with homicide bombers. In fact, going by your logic, by re-enacting a house demolition , they are "comparing" themselves to the IDF.

by Nicolo Tue May 31, 2005 18:51

Al,

seems your colleagues are wrong , legal challenge and your buddies stepped back

devil dog
i would love to stop appalling acts like suicide bombs but u r a troll

by Indymedia Watch Tue May 31, 2005 19:01 indymedia.ie at gmail dot com

Since you're concerned with protesting against "outillegal activity" (sic), how about "localising" it by making a pretend Belfast pub and staging a mock slaughtering of a human being in the street? You could have three monkeys giving mock interviews, crying about "Peelers", Fat Pinucane, Robert Hamill and ethical trading in Derry, instead of answering any questions about murder. Perhaps, you could call it "Feile na Rubble" or something appropriate for that "neck of the woods"....

by Devil Dog Tue May 31, 2005 19:02

Congrats on joining the others on this site who immediately label anyone who posits a different viewpoint as a "troll".

At least Joe is one who has shown a bit more imagination and an open mind in this regard, kudos to him.

My question to you was not intended to inflame you or to cause you hate and discontent but, as I explained above, to endeavour to introduce some context into the actions of the IDF you intend to replicate. It's also one you ignored.

Do you have any concrete (no pun intended) suggestions on how to stop homicide bombings?

by tangents Tue May 31, 2005 20:26

a story about the Irish crime rate has ended up (yet again) going through the North, and the IDF....

is the comment function supposed to be for people to post comments on stories, or for anyone to have a rant about their favourite topic, and not have to worry about the Irish Times letters editor?