Kos Has Had it With The Conspiracists

by deep throat Mon Jul 11, 2005 21:34

Yes and while we're at it let's not forget Operation Northwoods as documented on that well known conspiracy geeks site, the National Security Archive at George Washington University.
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/news/20010430/

Of course, those of us who have taken the trouble to study events in the long regional "war against terror" in Northern Ireland (before it became a global mantra) know that it's always the TERRORISTS who are to blame when innocent civilians die. Remember the Dublin and Monaghan bombings ? Quod erat demonstrandum

by shipsea Mon Jul 11, 2005 20:04

Your powers of comprehension must be slight. Whats the difference between the cluster bomber and the suicide bomber? None whatsoever - exactly my point! Instead of being personally insulting, try actually reading what I wrote. And as usual with you people - no mention of the facts!

by irish citizen Mon Jul 11, 2005 18:28

"I am surprised by the level of ignorance demonstrated by those who rage about 'conspiracy theory nuts' or whatever." followed bv

"If these bombings are the actions of a terrorist group (and this is not and never has actually been proven), ..."

I can think of one conspiracy theory nut, right away.

And I'd like to ask you: what is the difference between a cluster bomb falling on a bus and a suicide bomber killing UN workers?

by shipsea Mon Jul 11, 2005 14:03

The world 'these people' live in is the world of those who are following the facts. Plans to invade Afghanistan and Iraq - put together by many of those who are now in high office in the Bush administration - were in place in 1997. The minutes of meetings and reports have been published and widely reported and commented on in both the US and UK mainstream media. Where have you been? There is so much documented proof of how these wars were seen as necessary before 9/11 or any of the recent terror attacks ocurred. What was needed was an excuse and even that obstacle was openly acknowledged and discussed beforehand. These are FACTS - not conspiracy theories. Go and do your research before you start raving at people - and censoring them. Bush and Blair have thought nothing of taking the lives of hundreds of thousands of people, including US and UK soldiers. They clearly think other peoples lives are expendable in the pursuit of their objectives - even those of their own citizens. How far are they prepared to go?They have certainly killed far more people than the terrorists. But if that provides us with an illusion of safety, then thats alright, I suppose. I am surprised by the level of ignorance demonstrated by those who rage about 'conspiracy theory nuts' or whatever. How utterly naive and gullible they are! All of this killing is absolutely vile and nothing anyone ever said or did justifies any of it at all. What is the difference between an American cluster bomb falling on innocent Iraqi civilians (elderly, women, children - not to mention huge numbers of entirely innocent men) and a bomb on a bus in London? If you can do it in one circumstance you can do it in another. Whoever is responsible, the same consequences follow and nobody changes their minds - not ever. If these bombings are the actions of a terrorist group (and this is not and never has actually been proven), the mind-set on both sides is identical - that you can achieve a legitimate objective by killing other people. The only distinction then is to decide which people are most usefully killed. How much weight do you give to your ultimate objective. Does the end justify the means? From this perspective there is no difference whatsoever between any of those who are prepared to kill in any kind of offensive action. Blair is run by Bush. The Bush regime is as fundamentalist and aggressive in its outlook as any terrorist organisation. It has the money, the power and the means to do virtually anything it choses and it is routinely exploiting all of those things to do just that. Welcome to reality.

by eeekkkkk Mon Jul 11, 2005 13:17

America's had trouble with normal since the day it watched a police narcotics informant silence a self-described patsy on live television. It's degraded to the point at which it needed rebranding as the "New Normal" to still be recognizable to most Americans, who aren't sheep so much as lobsters who believe it's supposed to be this hot. And since at least the disclosure of Operation Gladio, and the revelations of connivance of Western military intelligence with fascists, gangsters and secret societies to wage false flag terror to discredit Europe's democratic Left, no speculation should be discounted out of hand, and nothing should be taken at face value. As Gladio agent Vincenzo Vinciguerra testified, "You had to attack civilians, the people, women, children, innocent people, unknown people far removed from any political game. The reason was quite simple: to force...the public to turn to the state to ask for greater security." Person in the street shrugs: "Security comes first...."

by Barry Sun Jul 10, 2005 19:33

do Irish people buy such shite ? Are our own media rags not repulsive enough ?

Have we become so accustomed to swallowing bullshit we've acquired a taste for it ?

Whats needed now is compassion , reflection and honest debate among Irish people on this issue . Not sensationalist , pro- British and more than likely racist nonsense a la the news of the world and their ilk.

by redjade Sun Jul 10, 2005 18:01

iosaf - dead on.

'i 'blog' on indymedia for similar reasons - but i'm not as prolific as you so I just take snips from others more prolific than i. I snip from those I agree with and dont agree with ( http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=70728 ) and those who challenge me to think differently, as well.

In the first moments of a media event, or rather an event in the media (excluding all those other events that didnt happen because 'the tree made no sound when it fell' because the Irish Times wasnt there to record it)... I blog to understand.

To 'understand' one must gestalt with what little one knows and build from there on. Of course many many many assumptions go with gestalting - assumptions based on past experience and knowledge, as well with predjudices. The scientific method is suppose to apply here, but Ive been told in college by 'Social Science' profs that Social Science is not really a science - so, it is often hard to find a there there.

But there is a there, I'd say. And the there that is there is not there within the mediums of the corporate bards that sell us their distractions - so, thus... Indymedia.

Blog the dog.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gestalt

Today's DOse Spoon-Fed MSM Gestalting

by iosaf ipsiphi Sun Jul 10, 2005 15:12

symptomatic of alienated urban western life, which under the trigger such attacks brings out the paranoid, the irrational, and often if it were not for the immediate offence (which would be caused to those who died, were wounded, or worked and still are working in the emergency services with the primary victims) might appear amusing or creative.

& from my point of view and experience "sifting" "collating" archiving" "translating" "analysing" on a daily & often nightly basis many thousands of words which float on the net expressing opinion, belief and *emotions*
this material is important. It doesn't surprise me to read, but I don't want it "left on the open newswire" (but I'm not an editor that's not my responsibility) but I do pay attention to it as indicitave of what I term "quartiary victims".

Those whose connection to the trauma is cybernetic (television or internet) rather than by being related to the primary victims, or those who feel "they had a lucky escape". Many people to put it simply "go mad", rationalising these events.

That is truly one of our collective weaknesses.

We don't have words to correctly and accurately describe "the enemy", we are still seeing used the blanket term "al qeada" on news-screens and in papers, we are this time studiously careful to the fall-out to the muslim community, but we are far from "understanding" that these attacks

*are not logistically or militarily difficult to launch
(they are not the work of genius.)
*are designed for mass psychological damage.
(they touch nerves within the western collective psyche which has spent too many years honing the responses to "terror" in our entertainment products. The peculiar thing, I doubt the perpetrators themselves realise how effective their games on dates and such are, coming from very narrow sociological and cybernetic types.

So:-
There is a lot of material being published and written and thought at the moment, all over the western world, which _reacts_ according to prejudice. The right wing blame the pacifists.
The left wing blame the war on iraq. the division begins, the spanish are thrown back to last year in their party political clashes of yesterday, the americans are thrown back to september. & for attacks by *do not forget* different people, under different banners operating in languages most people have no idea of, occupying a percentage of the cybernetic global information pool which is less than 9%. But we in europe and the west miss that, we feel we have to draw connections, to find a pattern, to enter delusional states.

This is about psychology.
I've been through this personally, I've seen the "patterns" and then seen beyond that, having been online through them all, with real world connections to all sites, and each time I have to remind myself to remember those events which are not part of the "popular distortion memory".
Those attacks foiled and achieved which did not match, Ankara, Casablanca the racin events.

It would be useful to have a annexe I have often said, an indymedia "paranoia/conspiracy" page to collate these. For we can learn a lot from them.
Because the same underlying causes, are common to the "terrorists". By understanding the "conspiracy nuts" we might move to better understanding the "terrorists"...

by only jokin' Sun Jul 10, 2005 08:29

Looks like he's acted in the heat of the moment and most of them will be let back. So much for freedom of speech...