Secondary students punished for being political

by John Sat Sep 17, 2005 00:16

Your spelling leaves a lot to be desired. Have a read through and you'll see what I mean. Perhaps you'd be better off working on that and forget politics until you grow up.

by Cian - USS Sat Sep 17, 2005 00:27

ahh come on.. im in a bit of a rush here.. there is lots going on, spelling is the first casualty of activity. HA. Anyway...
Thanks, Cian

PS. Would people be interested in helping out by having a letter writing campaign? Just say if u'd be interestd then i'll give more details about the issue and also the adress if we decide that is how we will deal with it (just to say, there were only 2 members of SY involved in this, the others are not members, some kinda interested others not, and the leaflet wasn't a socialist youth one). Thanks, Cian

by Ciaron - Catholic Worker/Ploughshares Sat Sep 17, 2005 00:36 087 918 4552

John your cynicism and cowardice leaves a lot to be desired. Maybe you should grow up and take some responsibility for defending freedom and protecting the innocent being slaughtered by your government. Give me a typo with substance anyday over your perfection of a grammar colonially imposed.

Cian, don't let school ever get in the way of your education!

It's a case of free speech use it or lose it! The situation is so bad in this country, that the act that created the state is now criminalised by the state. The putting up of a poster on a wall is now a criminal activity in Dublin (billboards abound!).

The state devours its young. It ships then through Shannon daily to kill and be killed. When I was 17 I was expelled from school in Brisbane for protesting a visit by the Queen. The school, ten years later, employed me as a teacher. This year the Queensland Board of Teacher Registration attempted to deregister me (not for crimes against spelling!) on the basis of "disgraceful character" for a track record of 28 years of nonviolent civil disobedience against war-making. They failed...those who cannot do, teach! Those who cannot teach, deregister & supress free expression of critical youth.

Solidarity from Dublin
Keep the faith
Ciaron

by Damien Moran - Dublin Catholic Worker Sat Sep 17, 2005 02:04

Well done Cian. A rare bit of resistance coming from Limerick. Tim Hourigan, Ed Horgan, and the MAMA group have kept the flame of dissent ignited while Ireland's anti-war memory has extinguished into passive disapproval but overall acceptance that, well, business must and shall go on.

We will be holding a public meeting at Halla Ide, Thomas st. in Limerick City at 7.30pm on Friday Sept. 23rd.
Catholic Worker And Ploughshares defendant Ciaron O'Reilly will speak alongside Shannon Planespotter and MAMA spokesperson Tim Hourigan while former army commandant Ed Horgan will chair the meeting.

All are welcome and hope we will have an opportunity to meet you and your comrades.
Unfortunately Ciaron, Deirdre and I will not be able to meet you in Shannon as we are barred from a 5 mile radius. We will vigil at Bunratty Castle on Sept. 24th from 12 noon.

Keep us updated and let us know if you need/what support you need.

by . - belfast socialist party Sat Sep 17, 2005 02:53

dont let the bastards grind you down

by Mary Kelly Sat Sep 17, 2005 12:40

Dont let the bastartds grind you down Cian!
And they wont teach you about that at school.
Well done for breaking ranks with deadlty school suppression and brainwashing.

Now is the time to kick ass while you are at school and dont take shit from this fucked up state dished out as "education" by cowardly so called teachers.

Ask your teachers do they support the use of civilian Irish airports by the US military in illegal bombing missions? Also do they support Irish government assistence to undercover CIA planes transporting kidnapped people to torture centres?

This is a crime against Irish and International law and has been denounced this week by the UN..

If your teachers support these crimes, and insist on punishing students who are raising awareness about it, then its time to raise the roof and expose that school and its teachers as not being fit educate.

educare= to lead out


All power to you and friends.

Mary Kelly, disarmer of US warplane, Shannon 29/1/03

by Oisin Sat Sep 17, 2005 14:27

Sue them !!!

by Shipsea Sat Sep 17, 2005 16:05

Do you want anyone to write to your headteacher or to the board of management? If so, only say the word.

Outrageous attitude from your headteacher. Needs to be put back in her box, definitely.

by Sharon - Individual. Sat Sep 17, 2005 17:27

'Full marks' (!) to you , Cian , and your friends for having an interest in what is happening around you . I have one son in College who is now only starting to 'ask questions' of a political nature ; I explain my beliefs to him and let him make his own mind up thereafter - if he decided , with a few of his friends , to leaflet outside the school over a certain issue and was 'pulled-up' for same as you were , then I would continue the leafleting with him on the following day !

It is a shame that the staff in your school are not more encouraging to you and your friends . Keep that attitude , Cian - it will stand to you in the long run .

Sharon.

by Paul Kinsella - Various Sat Sep 17, 2005 19:03 paulkinsella53 at yahoo dot com 53 Lorcan Grove, Santry, Dublin 9, Ireland 085-7105140

This is outrageous! Talk about suppressing freedom of speech! If you want Cian I will Email the newspapers and others about this. No better person! And ignore John! He's just a troll who wastes people's time. Email me at paulkinsella53@yahoo.com when you get a chance Cian.

by iosaf Sat Sep 17, 2005 19:24

Cian, you can go various ways on this-

* make a national media hullabooloo which you are doing, and it would be appreciated if you got the message across that a very broad coalition of groups individuals and political parties are anti-war.
* fight fire with fire - make public a list of all your peers in Ard Scoil limerick who are using drugs or underage drinking and.... make a national media hullabooloo.
* relax, enjoy the Shannon protest know you are part of a multi-million public opinion lobby in Europe against the war, and enjoy your time out of school, ask those who sympathise with you for notes on any difficult chapters in your course work, don't forget to continue your learning curve, and this is the most fun bit- enjoy your new status as a revolutionary at the local disco.

Whichever you choose, you'll be ok. Look forward to hearing more from you over the years. Try and put yourself in contact with Zainab Khadoum. (see link)
http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=67656

by Cian Sat Sep 17, 2005 19:35

Hey,
thank you all for ypour support, im going to pruint it off to show to the others nd hopefully keep up morale. THanks again.

Later on today i am planning on being able to put up a full list of the events of the day that this all happened so as to give people the details. Then tomorrow i will hopefully post up a draft letter that people will hopefully copy down, put there adress etc and sign and send it off to thae school.

Also, we would also welcome calls from people to comlain to the school. We would hope that you will chighlight the points that we decide are mor important for the moment - i.e. the democratic rights involved as opposed to general anti-war things.

School details:
Ardscoil Ris,
North circular road,
Limerick

Tel: (061): 454828/455251
Fax (061): 325035
Email: asroffice@eircom.net

All comunications to the attention of Principal Brid de Brun and the the board of managment, and letters or emails could also request to be passed on to teachers and the student council.

All communications could also be forwarded to the Limerick Leader or some other local press.

Anywaay, wait till monday to call or send the letters - by then you will have the full details of the issue and also a draft letter.

Thank you all,
Please pass the word around, through your organisations, friends, family and colleagues.
Yours gratefully,
Cian

by Cian Sun Sep 18, 2005 03:02 comradecian at eircom dot net Limerick 085 7077919

Students have been punished for handing out leaflets in there own time and on public property.
As promised i have the full details of the days happenings of the day. Basically students were distributing leaflets to fellow students outside of school time and grounds. The school rules allow this activity., Yet the principal has punished the students (8 in total) involved.
The students involved shall be coded a, b, c, d, e, f, g and h. The non-student shall be named x.

08:30 – 3 (a, b&c) Students distribute leaflets outside Ardscoil Ris, informing them about the use of Shannon airport by US military and also about the protest on the 24th of September.

8:40 – 2 (a&b) Students are called into the office and there leaflets confiscated, when they asked under what rule or law these actions are being done the principal replies “I don’t have to justify my self to you”. She gives out to them for leafleting students before school in uniform and promises to return the leaflets to them after school.

08:49 – C finishes up and heads off to class

08:50 – school starts and all 8 students involved in the totality of this are sitting in class

10:50 – at small lunch the school rules are once again consulted to see if there is any rule in reference to anything like this. None is found. The decision is made to continue, as planned, with further leafleting and a stall after school.

15:00 – A and B whose leaflets were confiscated go to the office to collect them, the principal is not around so they wait.

15:02 – the other 6 students and a non-student begin handing out leaflets, with a stall table set up on public property across the road from the school. Despite the fact that no rule exists that bans us and even the Irish constitution defends us, we decide to try to avoid conflict by taking off all clothes with the school crest on it.

15:10 – 2 other students (d&e) are called into the office by the principal

15:11 – the principal gives out to a,b,c & d for the stall going on outside and the previous leafleting, and refuses to give back the leaflets from earlier. Remember c&d played no part earlier and a&b played no part in the stall and they were promised that they would get there leaflets back.

15:15 – the principal comes out, leaving the students inside, and calls f onto school ground. He asks if it is possible not to as that would be school ground. The principal refuses to move and so f crosses the road and talks to her. She says she wants to meet with him later. He says ok.

From 15:15 on – the principal calls the parents of a to f. F's parents in particular refuse to apologies or promise that it won’t happen again. Other students involved are later punished by their parents. Note: a call home constitutes a level 3 punishment and level 2 was skipped. In order to skip a level the issue must be considered a ‘sever beach of the code’. Also note: there was no breach of the code involved.

16:15 after waiting for around an hour f is told tat his meeting will happen on Monday. Also at this time e’s parents come into the school and make e apologies and promise never to do this again.




Important things to keep in mind:
- There is nothing in the school rules that could even be used against students in full uniform, during school lunch, on school ground setting up a stall and distributing leaflets. Now that is a hugely different story but it does give some background. In such a situation they would be able to deal with us under state law as it is private property etc. they could not however, punish us as students for breach of school discipline as there would be no breach in those actions in and of themselves. The fact of the mater is we did this in our own time, public property and in clothes that we even made sure had no school crest on. Unavoidably we did, however, have grey slacks on and in some cases a blue shirt, which are part of the uniforms of most boys’ schools in limerick. They are also worn by many others. Even if the school rules stretched to us while we were wearing these slacks (which they don’t) the reality is we weren’t breaking the rules so they couldn’t do anything.
- We are perfectly entitled in law, human rights and school rules to spend our free time exercising our right to free speech, especially on public property!



#########################



I plan on puttin up a draft letter and asking people to copy it and put there details etc and there own thoughst if they want and sending it to the school. Basicaly saying they can't make up rules on the spot and that studnets are free to be politically active oiin there own time on public property. If u want to take it further or a little less strong that too is ok. We just want to show them that they do not exist in a vacuum and wil be help accountyable and that this is not acceptabnle. Slippy slope etc. Please say if u would be able to help with b doing this, or emailing or calling (or all of them). I will post more details and answer questins later.
Thank you,
Cian

by Blue Peter Badge Winner 1976 Sun Sep 18, 2005 04:20

Cian, you are an embarassment to the Irish education system with such spelling. You are a silly little fool that is clearly being manipulated for political ends. You don't know the first thing about the war in Iraq, a war that liberated the Iraqi people from a dictator. Furthermore, the situation in New Orleans is a complex one - you can stop blaming President Bush for that catastrophe and focus on the mayor of New Orleans. Furthermore, the Federal and Local funding of States in the US is a matter for the American people, not the USS - an organization that failed to condem the terrorism in Turkey that murdered a student Tara Whelan during the summer.


The Union of Secondary Students is a privately owned organization who have refused to disclose their funders. Perhaps, Cian, after you've had some spelling lessons (or learnt to use the Spellchecker in Microsoft Word), you could protest about non-disclosure and the use of children for political ends (yes, just like the child soldiers in Africa)...


I wonder if these students (I suspect the origin of the post) were canvassing for Fianna Fail would the dreadlocked horrors of the DCW et al be so quick to start shouting "Freedom of Speech"?

by Shipsea Sun Sep 18, 2005 06:53

Im not sure if I havent just read the most patronising and idiotic post ever seen on Indymedia. (Above?) Is it really there, folks? Or have I not woken up properly yet.

The issue, as Cian has pointed out, is not New Orleans, the War or child soldiers in Africa (concerning though these issues are) - it is about the exercise of normal civil lberties regardless of who is exercising them. Nobody posting here is fussed whether we are talking about Fianna Fail supporters or anarchists. (Of course the chances of any Fianna Failer actually giving a damn about free speech must be pretty slim, granted.)

Neither are we talking about spelling or spell-checking - what is it with these retentive types - Jeez!.

Ms de Brun appears to be a shining example of everything that is bad about her profession: arrogant, stupid, controling and way out of line. Why did the parents of these young adults not tell her to get lost... Did they actually run into the school for a dressing down by this person? Who the hell does she think she is? The subservience of Irish people never ceases to amaze! Teachers have a lot to answer for - churning out obedient and aquiescent business fodder by the hundred. Brendans and Dermots talking about 'the product', educationally labotomised, neatly dressed and ready to report for a life-time of mindless duty at 21.

Stay informed and involved, Cian. We need people like you and your friends. And that's more than enough advice for you on this thread - which, as Steinbeck said, is really the givers present to themselves.

by Shipsea Sun Sep 18, 2005 07:08

If you can provide an email address, that would be helpful.

by Faolcu Sun Sep 18, 2005 11:13

Good on you, Cian!
Not much point in being able to spell properly if your not allowed to write what you believe, john!!!!!!
Young minds thinking quick don't worry about spelling.

Where the letter, I had a problem last year with my kids principal, he didn't understand constitutional or administrative law either, you have a possible case against the school, both on the grounds of denial of due process and fair procedure and on infringment of constitutional rights. Contact a good barrister and let these people know that they don't llive in a legal vacuum(or is it vaccum?). As for the imbeciles who would say not to go into the courts or you are becoming part of that which you wish to deatroy, well I go in and when the sit at homes do destroy the state then I will join them in their ridiculous thinking.

On the subject of a good legal representative, just look at who is defending the ploughshares.

by Oisin Sun Sep 18, 2005 12:50

QUOTE

Tiresome, Wrong, Misguided.
by Blue Peter Badge Winner 1976 Sunday, Sep 18 2005, 3:20am

/QUOTE

Maybe you should just ask them where the money comes from I am sure they will have no problem in telling you and by the way it is not a privately owned orginisation ... It is a Company Limited by Guarantee to protect them for financial reasons. The Board of Directors of the Company are not involved in any policy decisions !!! Also if you look at their website you will see that they publish their financial reports for all too see.

As for the USS coming out against the terrorist bomb in Turkey which killed a student ... the was a press release issued, the national media never picked up on it....

I really think that you need to look at things a little deeper then just what you see on the face of it. And I dont think it is important as to weather or not someone makes a few spelling mistakes and oboviously you are just looking for someway to fault what Cian is saying ... and cant find it in his arguement so you have to target spelling ... how patethic !!!

by Paul Sun Sep 18, 2005 12:53

The USS has engeged its legal team to take up the matter with the school on Monday. There has been a leak from the Board that they are worried as to the type of precident this could set if left un contested !

by EpF Sun Sep 18, 2005 13:35

Very disappointed to read that some of the students' parents have caved to this disgraceful behaviour of the principal. Would be interested in helping via e-mail or post. Have you made any effort to get a local paper interested in the story?

by Cian Sun Sep 18, 2005 14:42

Hey,
School details:

Ardscoil Ris,
North circular road,
Limerick

Tel: (061): 454828/455251
Fax (061): 325035
Email: asroffice@eircom.net

All comunications to the attention of Principal Brid de Brun and the the board of managment, and letters or emails could also request to be passed on to teachers and the student council.

All communications could also be forwarded to the Limerick Leader or some other local press.

I will be posting up a draft letter later, if you can wait till that. The main points we wish to raise are that schools have no right to create rules on the spot or to interfere with students actions outside of school time off of school grounds - especially when all it is is exercising their freedom of speech.

Letters, as opposed to emails, would be prefered as we think they have a bigger impact. Calls of complain are also very welcom. We are hoping to get many high up names helpng u, like Joe HIggans etc. If anyone else has particular imporance then tell us also. If everyone who decides to help could post it up here that would be helpful, so as we have an idea of numbers.

Thanks,
Cian

by Sharon. - Individual. Sun Sep 18, 2005 15:42

Hi again Cian !

Re the comments (above) from the poster 'Blue Peter Badge Winner 1976' :

You are right , Cian , not to point out to the above-named poster that the word 'embarrassment' is spelt with two 'r' 's and 'condemn' is spelt with an 'n' , as to do so would only drag you down to his/her level ie 'condemn [with an 'n' !] the messenger ...'

I , on the other hand , am only too happy to do so ! Again , Cian - you and your friends are to be congratulated for taking a stand on this issue .

Sharon .

by Starstruck - Grassroots Dissent Sun Sep 18, 2005 17:19

Fair play to you for taking the stand you have and I wish you all the best.
Pay no attention to the petty begrudgers,they are merely envious of your spirit and motivation,all they can muster is trolling around the net seeking to criticise those they could not do so in person.
Good work on spreading the word about the Shannon protest on the 24th and remember,if some of the people you speak to can't make it to County Clare,the Take Back the City street party is on at 2pm at the Spire..
Peace

by Sam - TODAY Sun Sep 18, 2005 19:33

I have encountered similar problems in my school.

In Solidarity,

T.O.D.A.Y

by Limerick1919 Sun Sep 18, 2005 19:37 limerick1919 at gmail dot com

The union in Ard Scoil Ris is the ASTI and they have had some problems there with strike action threatened before. ASTI head office should be informed as should the teacher rep.
RTE education correspondant (o'kelly) is from the area and might also look into it. I would get on to her asap.
You might have the backing of more teachers there than you think.

by DENIS THE MENACE Sun Sep 18, 2005 21:12

Cian says " I have read my schools code of discipline and it has nothing that could even be loosly interpreted-------"

First things first.

No man can be a jude in his own case.

Instead of giving us your interpretation of the rules why don't you quote them to us so that we can see that piece of evidence first.

Some school rules have catch-all areas that are open to argument and interpretation ! Some rules talk about behaviour that might bring a school in to disrepute.

If your conduct could have brought the school in to disrepute you might have some bother.

The absence of identifying uniform items may still not be enough to disguise your identity.

Mind you if there is no such catch-all it is very hard to discipline you as it could be like to arresting a person for an offence that does not exist...............

by DENIS THE MENACE Sun Sep 18, 2005 21:15

Cian says " I have read my schools code of discipline and it has nothing that could even be loosly interpreted-------"

First things first.

No man can be a judge in his own case.

Instead of giving us your interpretation of the rules why don't you quote them to us so that we can see that piece of evidence first.

Some school rules have catch-all areas that are open to argument and interpretation ! Some rules talk about behaviour that might bring a school in to disrepute.

If your conduct could have brought the school in to disrepute you might have some bother.

The absence of identifying uniform items may still not be enough to disguise your identity.

Mind you if there is no such catch-all it is very hard to discipline you as it could be like to arresting a person for an offence that does not exist...............

by Niall Harnett - Na Cosantóirí Síochána Sun Sep 18, 2005 23:01

Well done Cian, fully supportive of your stance. Be bold. Stay in touch with us here on indymedia, keep us updated etc. Best wishes.

by Cian Mon Sep 19, 2005 00:16

"The union in Ard Scoil Ris is the ASTI and they have had some problems there with strike action threatened before. ASTI head office should be informed as should the teacher rep.
RTE education correspondant (o'kelly) is from the area and might also look into it. I would get on to her asap.
You might have the backing of more teachers there than you think."

Can i have contact details for that RTE guy if you have it and also for ASTI.
Thank you,
Cian

by Cian Mon Sep 19, 2005 01:57 comradecian at eircom dot net Limerick 085 7077919

Hey,
below is a draft letter of complaint that i would urge as many people as possible to put their details nto and print it and send it and get others to do the same. Or f u cant do that then do it as an email. If u can or ant to it would be great if u either wrote your own letter or edited this one to more your ideas. Please send the letters to the school as soon as possible. But if they are emails please hold out till tuesday - that is the day we have decided to blitz them. Also if people here live in limerick and would be available tuesday mornin to hand deliver the letter we could arrange for a group to go at the same time. But that is unlikely. Also i would LOVE people to call the school on monday. Thank you all.

oh ya.. details:
Ardscoil Ris, North Circular Road, Limerick
Tel: (061) 453828 OR 455251 (try the firts one first then the second if u cant get through, thanks)
Fax: (061) 325035
Emial: asroffice@eircom.net
Letter:


####Your address##
##Your contact details##

The Principal,
Ardscoil Ris,
North Circular Road,
Limerick.
18th September 2005

Dear Ms. de Brun,
I am writing to complain about your actions regarding several students in Ardscoil Ris who handed out leaflets outside of school time and grounds on Friday September 16th. The leaflet concerned expressed their opposition to the Iraq war in general and the use of Shannon Airport by US military in particular and also to inform peole of government subsidies to those planes and the protest, with music, on the 24th of September in Shannon. Whether or not you or I oppose the occupation of Iraq is irrelevant – the students involved were just exercising their right to express their opinion and make it available to others .I believe that you were wrong to punish the students involved in this basic and age-old exercising of democratic rights.
I believe, the students involved broke no school rule and are free to express their opinions both inside and, most definitely, outside of their school. I also believe you have no right to make up rules (such as ones outlawing leafleting) on the spot. Students should not be punished if they broke no rule. Also, no rules controlling student’s political activities outside of school should be allowed, as they would go against fundamental democratic rights.
I demand that all disciplinary actions regarding the events in question be immediately halted. As I said, you have no right to punish students who have broken no rule or law. Also, you also have no right to punish students for activities outside of school – especially perfectly legal ones like this!
I also demand that there is no more infringing on peoples democratic right to free speech and to political activity in general. At the very least students are free to express their opinions and distribute leaflets etc. in their own time and on public property, as was the case here. Students should also be allowed to organise, legally, within the school and to be political. Schools should not be punishing, but praising, political activity and interest.
I would request that you pass this letter onto the Board of Management of the school as well as the teachers in the school. I will be forwarding a copy of this letter to the Limerick Leader and others.

Yours truly,


______________
#Your name#
#Your title etc#

by Mark C - Teacher Mon Sep 19, 2005 11:06 mark at markconroy dot net

Perhaps people might also like to add something like this to their emails (if they are also teachers), as I did.

I write as a teacher myself, and as a political activist. Although the text below I am sure you have read many times this morning I am sending it unedited to you as I feel to add my own views would simply be to reiterate its message.

I presume that your school also has the CSPE subject which encourages children to be politically aware. You should be thankful that the subject fulfilled its purpose.

Mark

by Cian Mon Sep 19, 2005 19:28

Hey,
I had the meeting with the principal today (i had to ly in waiting outside the school for half an hour after it ended to get her). I will write up a fuller account of what happened laer but basically she has retreated to saying she ws not complaining about us but merely advising us that there was a risk to sudents who stopped o talk to us. She said that she did not give out to those involved, nor did she give out abvout them to the parents when she called them. Considering the p[arents were asked to promise this wouldnt happen again, as wel as the fact 2 students have been grounded and others almost banned from talking to me and others involved, i think the evidence suggests a punishing tone was taken. Also, that is what i hear from my fellow students. Also, considerng an immediatemeeting with me was called, but later canceled, i think that also raises questions over the idea we weren't being given out to. Also, she didn' even mention to us any health and sfety concerns, she just called our parents and confiscated some leaflets. If she was serioulsly concerned presumably dshe would have mentioned it to us.
Anyway, i thnik the fact myt mothe refused to promise it wouldn't happen again, plus maybe someone found out about the posts i had up on sites r maybe she just sees how testy the ground she is onis, all thses things have added to what amounts as a dignified retreat. She has admitted she has no authority over us doing this. We plan to test the waters on thursday with some leafleting. Depending on the outcome of that i may need ye to write in those letters. Until then its probably best to keep the letters. If u have sent it already that is ok. But no more. If we have already won then there is no point doing more. Well, i can see that ifd we do that we serioucly weaken our stance.
I;ll post up the outcome of the leafleting on thursday. And soon enough i'll post full details of te meeting.
Thank you all,
Cian

by Mark C - Teacher Tue Sep 20, 2005 09:50 mark at markconroy dot net Portlaoise

Congratulations Cian, you've achieved a great thing, and it will certainly set a precedent for any other students in any other schools that may want to do the same. This could be what your principal may fear most - if she doesn't personally mind what you are doing and allows it, but other principals may not, she would be in the awkward position of having to defend the other students because leafletting was allowed at your school.

If you'd like any advice/ comments further about this, my email address is above.

Again, congratulations and good luck.

Mark.

by historian Tue Sep 20, 2005 10:20

I was reading recently about the manner in which the Bolsheviks brutally supressed all political activity by students in 1918. Contrary to the myth, the vast majority were members of left wing organisations including Anarchists and Social Revolutionaries. Trotsky was main advocate of hard line against the students. Good job he's not around Limerick! Cian would have a lot more to worry about than his mother being summoned by the Principal!

by Oisin Tue Sep 20, 2005 13:46

Has anyone got any update on the situation since yesterday ?

by Cian Tue Sep 20, 2005 17:54

Not much to update u about. One of the students whose leaflets were confiscated on friday was talking to the principal toay. She basically said the same thing to him as to me. He said she basically appologised. I presume she used no such word but...
We are still planning to go ahead with some leafletting tomorrow (as people arent available thursday and no school friday) to test the waters and make sure that she is true to her word. I don't think she will do anythin as she recieved some phone calls, emails and letters and also knows that the Limerick Leader were arond it. Also, Joe Higgans was another person we had ready to call in, and as he said: if they do do anything tomorrow we will come down on them 'like a ton of bricks'. I'll tell ye how it goes,and make sure to check as i may need ye sending letters right away. Hopefully not.
Thanks,
Cian

PS i promise i'll put up more details of the meeting etc soon. Just SO busy. Thanks again.

by Richard - Student Action, Ardscoil Ris, Limerick Tue Sep 20, 2005 18:51 richman2n at hotmail dot com

This incidence of the principle disbanding a group of students, whose only crime was for being (or attempting to be) political, is only one in the wider issues of both agist discrimination aimed at young people for being politically active, or even just taking an interest, and political consciousness as a whole. I hope that in the near future politics will not be dismissed as pointless or 'uncool', but as a favourable contribution from the young people of this country (and around the world) who will, one day become the working class- the class which will be supporting the currently discriminating class!

by jodie Tue Sep 20, 2005 19:47

D'you reckon there could be legal implications for pupils distributing various kinds of leaflets outside a school? Hence, the school have developed policies on this area, or make them up on the spot when confronted with new situations like this.

by Cian Tue Sep 20, 2005 20:16

Hey,
There are legal implications for most corporate leaflets, but political leaflets are perfectly legal under the term 'social interest' leaflets.
Thanks,
Cian

by Terry Tue Sep 20, 2005 20:17

What happens outside the school gate should be of no concern to the school, unless of course it somehow directly related to the school.

In this case it doesn't. I think what has shown up here is that school is designed to knock any initiative out of young people and to make them passive and obedient to the systems. It's all about teaching them to obey the official and unwritten (self censor) rules.

Cian, I think you have made an excellent start in breaking this straitjacket of one the strongest pillars of the propaganda institutes of the State.

You should check out the writings of John Gatto, author of: The Underground History of American Education.

Gatto was a teacher for over 30 years, got teacher of the year award numerous times, and eventually started researching as to how compulsory education was setup and why. His findings startled him.

It would be worth distributing some of his material about the school -or eh, rather outside it.


Here's two passages from his brilliant essay
Against School: How public education cripples our kids, and why By John Taylor Gatto
http://www.spinninglobe.net/gattopage.htm

"Mass schooling of a compulsory nature really got its teeth into the United States between 1905 and 1915, though it was conceived of much earlier and pushed for throughout most of the nineteenth century. The reason given for this enormous upheaval of family life and cultural traditions was, roughly speaking, threefold:

1) To make good people. 2) To make good citizens. 3) To make each person his or her personal best. These goals are still trotted out today on a regular basis, and most of us accept them in one form or another as a decent definition of public education's mission, however short schools actually fall in achieving them. But we are dead wrong. Compounding our error is the fact that the national literature holds numerous and surprisingly consistent statements of compulsory schooling's true purpose. We have, for example, the great H. L. Mencken, who wrote in The American Mercury for April 1924 that the aim of public education is not

to fill the young of the species with knowledge and awaken their intelligence. ... Nothing could be further from the truth. The aim ... is simply to reduce as many individuals as possible to the same safe level, to breed and train a standardized citizenry, to put down dissent and originality. That is its aim in the United States... and that is its aim everywhere else."

.... and ...

"Once you understand the logic behind modern schooling, its tricks and traps are fairly easy to avoid. School trains children to be employees and consumers; teach your own to be leaders and adventurers. School trains children to obey reflexively; teach your own to think critically and independently. Well-schooled kids have a low threshold for boredom; help your own to develop an inner life so that they'll never be bored. Urge them to take on the serious material, the grown-up material, in history, literature, philosophy, music, art, economics, theology - all the stuff schoolteachers know well enough to avoid. Challenge your kids with plenty of solitude so that they can learn to enjoy their own company, to conduct inner dialogues. Well-schooled people are conditioned to dread being alone, and they seek constant companionship through the TV, the computer, the cell phone, and through shallow friendships quickly acquired and quickly abandoned. Your children should have a more meaningful life, and they can."

More of his (and other people's) brilliant essays can be found at:

by Mark C - Teacher Wed Sep 21, 2005 12:50 mark at markconroy dot net

Whatever about the American school model (I don't know that much about it) but I have to say that inmy four years of teaching in Irish schools I've found them to be places that try to encourage students to learn and to be the best they can. I don't think it's that teachers don't want students to be individuals but more that students are the ones who display great feats of apathy and standardisation - take the school uniform (not something that I agree with myself) for example: if students were allowed to wear whatever they wanted they would just adopt another uniform of another hue (tracksuits or hoodies, perhaps); it isn't "cool" to be different. You can try to teach students to exert their individuality all you want but at the end of the day it is human nature for most people to want to be the same as the others, to be accepted. This does not change as people get older - that is why we have traditions and customs, people get used to doing the same things. Of course, some people are different and will try to step outside of the bounds that being human has cast upon them: Cian seems to be one of these people.

If it is the purpose of the education system to subdue people's intelligence, it is only one system in a conglomerate.

Mark Conroy.

by Cian - Union of Secondary Students & Student Action (Ardscoil Ris) & Socialist Youth Thu Sep 22, 2005 00:38 comradecian at eircom dot net 085 7077919

Hey,
I will write more tomorrow. I think i wont write up the details of the meetings, just the generals of it. But anyway, leafleting went ahead todoay, we were watched froma distance but nothing was said so.. well.. VICTORY. We have shown that students can win in battles with principals, Boards of Managment and the same goes for widespread batles with even the Department of Education. I think that it is obvious that what made the difference here was the strong, pro-active, 'militant' atitudes of us as well as of some parents and also of ye and others. Wthout the willingness to do somethng and come in conflict with the principal we would have just lost a fundemenatl right. The same goes in other situations. The teachers few years ago would never have got their well deserved money if iit hadn't been for their willingness to take action. When it comes down to it: what is good for working class people and students is bad for employers. Employers don't want their workers to be political, or used to having real imput into their day to day lives. They don't want them having radical ideas, or being individuals, or being able to organise, or be used to having equality and justice. If students were used to this when going into jobs they wouldn't stand for it. And when it comes down to it, the companies fund ALL the main parties. Thus those parties, including Labour, Greens and Sine Fein, will and do, at one stage or noter, bow down to the 'bottom line' - Profit. They set up the education system in an authoritarian maner - it can't be called anything else. When students organise for democracy in schools the State try to undermine it with student councils with no role in the school, no real accountability, no political spirit and on top of all that - they have people supervising the meetings!

Both Teachers and students come into conflict with the state over education. They also come into conflict with principals, who want to maintain the authoritarian structures that pay him/her and give him/her power. Often, it may be, that they actually believe the propaganda - that students need to be oppressed as it is good for them, or they need it to learn, or to get used to the world. Whether they believe what they say or not is kinda irrelevant - their actions are still what they are: conflicting with the interests of students. the teachers strike a while ago, and the huge move by the media to attack it show that teachers DO have problems with the state, and always ill - they are employed by them, they are workers, who have seen the status and pay of their jobs decrease significantly. It also shows that they need allies. If students had also walked out and striked with the teachers then the medias argument thta they were harming the children would have been smashed. While some instances of this did happen, it was not widesperead. That is why a genuine students union in the schools needs to e developed - from the ground up. That union has to be committed to working witho our natural alies - teachers and workers. Teachers also need to realsis that they will benifit hugely from such a union if they work with them and recognise them as allies.

THis instance, of getting the right to leaflet, is just one struggle as part of a wider strugle - to get students & teacher democracy, where these 2two allies work together as the main deciding force in the runing of schols - they have the biggest invested interest and knowlege. The struggle for this is , i believe, part of an even wider struggle - the strggle against corrupt politics, occasional democracy, lowering of wages, imprisoning of activists, exploiting of workers, boom and bust, environmental destruction, imperialist war and the ruleof profit, not people. This struggle is the strugggle against Capitalism. It is the strugle for socialism.

Im people will agree with lots of what i say, but maybe not the anti-capitalist or scocialist conclusion. I don't think that matters too much in the short and medium term. i would still encourage all of ye to consciously consider these things and apply them to situations that arise. Students reading this i would urge to set up Student Action groups. like me and 8 friends have in Ardscoil Ris, limerick. If you want to talk about how we can do it and what we do, w are glad to talk. NOTE: I am pointing towards socialism as the solution, and towards the need to overthrow capitlisim to truly get somewhere for students. The group doesn't have this full policy. Thank you.

Thank you all for your great help in defending our rights. I hope to see you all at hte Anti-war protest this saturday in shannon. Busses going from belfast, cork, limerick, dublin and possibly other towns. Call me if you want details.

Tanks again,
Cian

by Graeme - "Student Action" ASR Thu Sep 22, 2005 21:26 yinyang at resist dot ca

Cian, will you please use a spell cheker or let me type things from now on? We goot see whats happeing with the discussion group too.

by Damien Thu Sep 22, 2005 22:24

Look, you have the privilage of being provided with an education by your school. If you don't like it, or its rules leave. I'm sure you are past 16 by now.

The school has a right to protect its image, and peole standing across the road in uniform are obviously its students even if they have no crest on display.

Given that you made it obvious you were pupils of the school, and projected an image which the school felt to be undesirable I feel they are well within their rights to ask you to desist.

If you wish to protest do it in plain clothes, away from the school. All you are doing at the moment is turning focus from the war towards ardscoil ris - which I'm sure is not your objective.