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Papal Fallibility & Ratzinger's apology.

category international | history and heritage | opinion/analysis author Monday September 18, 2006 19:04author by iosaf .:. ipsiphi Report this post to the editors

Regardless of one's position on faith groups, comparatively recent concepts of world civilisation blocks, secularism, state & religious group relations - the importance of this last week's papal history can not quickly be underestimated.

Though I come to considering Ratzinger's personal apology for his anti-Islamic comments whilst on holidays in his native Bavaria from old fashioned anti-papist prejudice. Benedict XVI who wanted us all to consider his job as supreme pontiff of the Roman Catholic church in the terms of the last war-time (WW1) pacifist "Benedict" has instead made history as the first pope to publically apologise.

& what a lame effort it was, as one nun lies murdered in a inter-religious sectarian attack in Africa & the Vatican city endures its highest level security alert since the mid 19th century.

That previous "hot period" was indeed when Pope Pius IX promulgated both the notions of Mary's blast-off into heavenly space & "papal infallibity" itself. The single most problematic teachings of the RC church for not only christian ecumenism, but also the freemasons whom he had described in the encyiclal "Qui Pluribus" (1849), as "men linked by evil union". For his troubles the Vatican was occupied by the French army & his funeral coffin was almost thrown into the Tiber on the night of July 12th 1881.

What is important now - is how Ratzinger's apology which follows 2 seperate & quite contrite apologies from the Holy See will be understood wherever muslims or their friends are to be found. An importance which now overshadows exactly what Papa Ratzi, the black pope, he who tied up the last mystery of Fatima - the german shepherd actually said in Bavaria.His "humble apology" put the "inverted commas" into an otherwise sweet as dishwater address to the ever dwindling faithful. The towering intellectual (who like his namesake & the author of this article) speaks a glut of languages & plays classical piano everyday to chill out forgot to remind his audience that when he sort of said "all muslims are mad mullahs and jihad is typical of Islam which only spread itself through the sword" , he was in fact quoting a medieval writer.

You knew that didn't you?
Oh! that's a medieval writer, Ratzinger is plagiarising went up the cries from little Hussein in the ashram to Johann Mengele waving the papal flag in the Bavarian square. His Holiness followed this clarification with the really pathetic disclaimer "but that's not my personal opinion" . Well, that makes everything alright doesn't it? If in future the pope wants to quote crusader propagandists he'll just need to use his fingers in the global "inverted commas" sign & then we'll know he's just an ultra-conservative but on the side of God's struggle all the same.

It has been a little over a month since another man first elected with as little democratic panache as Ratzinger first used the words "islamo-fascist" . G.W. Bush first used the term on the 10th of August, since when it has been recorded over a thousand times on network US TV and the sort of newspapers they read. Curiously that foray into "language" by Bush came just after he had apologised for "poorly thought out language & statements" in the previous 3 years. You remember surely?

"we are on a crusade"

I wonder when Joseph Ratzinger will get to saying ...........
........"bring it on "

Before anyone reminds us - the RC church clocked up more genocide in its worldwide expansion than any other world faith group. That's why so few people in South America look "pre-colombine Latin". Enough to turn you onto the Mormons indeed.

here endeth the lesson

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author by Miriampublication date Mon Sep 18, 2006 20:05author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Anybody who seriously professes to believe in core Catholic teaching should disassociate themselves from Ratzinger for what he has said. This is the absolute proof of what people feared when he was made pope. And make no mistake, his remarks will not have displeased the war-mongering, anti-muslim/asian propoaganda of Bush and Blair - whatever half hearted distance they might want to pretend to put between themsleves and Pappa Ratzi. He is playing to an agenda designed to bring Rome back into the war-mongering socio/economic fold - which the last pope was so determined not to capitulate to.

True catholics should demand a new pope. This one has disgraced himself.

author by Johnpublication date Mon Sep 18, 2006 20:49author address author phone Report this post to the editors

You should just be thankful that the Chistian Churches in general and the Catholic Church in particular are so tolerant. Should the Pope ever read your post, his most likely reaction will be to say a couple of Hail Marys for you. In contrast, were you to insult an Islamic leader in that way, there'd probably by now be millions rioting on the streets of Teheran, Islamabad, Cairo, London etc demanding that this site be closed down and those responsible for the insult handed over for immediate beheading.

author by Seán Ryanpublication date Mon Sep 18, 2006 21:09author address author phone Report this post to the editors

It all seems a bit on the daft side. One should remember that the pope didn't suggest that the text he quoted from was badly worded or indeed that it was wrong. I'm reminded of the fact that before he was elected the Chairman, he was leader of that sect within Christianity, who evolved from the Inquisition. One must remember also that the church has never properly apologised or atoned for the Inquisition. (Ah sure it was a long time ago...) http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4445279.stm

Wasn't it the Irish prophet/fortune teller Malachy, that predicted that the current pope would be the last?

Did Ratzinger not choose the name 'Peter,' in order to keep us guessing till it's too late?

Maybe it was meant to be, that we'll name him 'Peter.'

I just hope Peter never presumes to Speak From The Chair. That might be a tad bit more difficult to fob off, or gloss over.

author by Yusufpublication date Mon Sep 18, 2006 22:26author address author phone Report this post to the editors

This former Hitler Youth and German Army boot boy is not new to attacking those who are revelaing the lies and baseness of the Roman Catholic Church. He was the outstanding attacker of Liberation Theologists and those who proposed justice and human rights for those long oppressed peoples of Central and Latin America. He has attacked many minorities and proposed the canonisation of fascists like his friend Jose Maria Escriva of Opus Dei.

There is nothing new in this hateful and gratuitously offensive tirade. Nothing new. Same ole Nazi, same ole sheisse.

author by Johnpublication date Mon Sep 18, 2006 23:01author address author phone Report this post to the editors

He was 14 when he was conscripted into the Hitler youth. He was 16 when he was conscripted into the German army. If you'd been in your early teens in Nazi Germany you'd have served in both those organisations. Your real gripe has nothing to do with activities he was compelled to do in his early teens and everything to do with the part he played in bringing the marxist tyranny in eastern Europe to an end. You may hate him for that, but those who actually lived under that tyranny love him for it. Hence the millions who turn out to greet him when he visits eastern Europe. There is of course nothing new in marxists attacking the Pope. They tried to murder the previous one. On a related note, it is interesting to note the anti-Catholic venom that is spewed out by leftists in Ireland. When the Orange Order makes relatively moderate criticisms of the Catholic Church it is condemned by the same leftists and physically attacked when it tries to stage marches in Dublin on the grounds that it is anti-Catholic.

author by iosafpublication date Mon Sep 18, 2006 23:27author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Ratzinger's relationship with liberation theology stretched back to his own university experiences, debates & conflicts with one RC writer & sometime profesor of theology Hans Kung. It was under Ratzinger's watch as head of the Vatican dogma section that he earned the nickname "god's rottweiler" for how severely he came down on a generation of teachers. The main man who got bitten in such a way was Hans Kung. There were others who normally would be of more interest to indymedia readers from a anti-globalisation perspective, I'd suggest including the Brazilian Leonardo Boff. Many people if they know the name of Kung just think of his support for women, female ordination - the whole "magdalene legacy". But from a philosophical (& my own secular perspective) the suggestion by Kung in his final published work - that the Quran showed divine input or inspiration really was ground-breaking. At the same time that Ratzinger issued his final condemnation of Kung's "error" and stripped him of all authority to talk theology or teach, the last pope (the Polish one) went to Damascus.
Damascus is as we know the oldest capital city in continual habitation. And it is currently the capital of a secular state in the middle East, which we call Syria. Karol Wotyla (pope john paul 2) met with the not insignificant christian and RC community of Syria relishing their language Aramaic which has been spoken without break since Jesus ( who christianity is named after). He then knelt in prayer with the imam of the main mosque in Damascus, which they both did quietly in their own way. It was a greater symbolic step for him as pontiff than the imam. The Quran as anyone who has bothered to read it will know - makes specific mentions (in the name of God via the archangel Gabriel) of Christians & how the good muslim is to be pretty nice to them.... lend them cups of sugar, allow them their parades around the village square that sort of thing, try & avoid using them as the butt of all your jokes. That pretty decent and alltogether tolerant advice from god (known as Allah PBUH to muslims) was followed up by the man Gabriel had talked to - Muhumad the prophet (PBUH) in his "hadith" which underlined the general Islamic attitude to followers of the old Christ. The pope on the other hand was representing a religion whose core texts were disputed for the first four hundred years & as any reader of pulp fiction or cave explorer of the middle east knows - edited for the subsequent thousand years. No-one ever said God wrote the bible but christians almost to a single one reckon he had role to play in how it was written. Muslims are not divided on how they read the Quran but Christians are. So................. not only had Pope JP2 to think "maybe they got all the written stuff together better than we did" he also had to deal with the fact that 7 of his predecessors (at least) had authorised bloody holy war on muslims . After the third "crusade" Islam saw the word "jihad" used across what was then "its world".

Thus we see that the kathurlicks & papists started it all.:.

There is no such thing as "christendom" any more. & for many reasons there really is no such thing as "the Islamic world" especially when compared to the caliphate which once stretched from Cordoba in Iberia to the gates of Vienna. If you walk around your neighbourhood tonight dressed like wee willy winky you will find "the secular world" living right next to "the muslim world" just next to "the christian world". So having added that little factiod - note that the Syrian RC bishop deplored recent US and UK action in the middle east region warning that "irresponsible words & foreign policy & politics of confrontation" are putting the only Aramaic speaking christians left on the planet (apart from Mel Gibson) ar risk of sectarian reprisals. & that appeal to "the west" was issued before the German Pope who is always saying sorry for something forgot his inverted commas .

Oddly enough I learnt how to make the globally recognised standard inverted commas handsign from an Irish religion teacher. It's easy. you close your hands and with them equidisant on either side of your face, palms outwards wag two fingers in hooked motion. Practise is at the mirror saying things like "my God is better than your God but our Gabriel was the same one the Jews invented".
Meanwhile Al Qaeda are being reported on US network TV as wanting to nuke the Vatican. Of all the popes who have been murdered most were killed by catholics. One of course did "almost get killed" by a muslim who was working for the Soviets at the time, so it really wasn't a religious matter.

+
pass the plate........................

author by Yusufpublication date Mon Sep 18, 2006 23:51author address author phone Report this post to the editors

I am not a Marxist and I don't think PapaNazi can claim any part in the demise of the Soviet Union, but that is another issue and topic. Thecomments about his reproachable comments here and elsewhere are neither "anti-Catholic"nor anti Christian. Christians and people of all religions and none are outraged by his vitriolic attack.

Is Ratzingers intolerance and sectarianism a result of his time in the Hitler Youth and Nazi army? When did he desert the Wehrmacht and why? He said he ran away 'at the end of April or the beginning of May - I do not remember precisely'. But it is significant and he should explain further. Hitler died on April 30th 1945 and if he was simply running away to surrender to the Americans instead of the Russians, as many did, then he should say so and not claim it as an heroic act when it was simply an act of self preservation.

Of course it would not have been unusual for a young German Catholic Nazi to support fascism at that time. German Catholic Cardinal Bertram used to congratulate the Führer on his birthday and on hearing of Hitler's death offered a requiem mass for him. In Spain bishops promised fascists one year less in purgatory for every republican they killed. Father Martin Torrent advocated mass executions. Nuns were jailers in execution chambers where republicans were imprisoned before being shot. So I assume it would not have taken much "compulsion" to get a young German Catholic of the time to enter Hitler Youth and later the German Army.

The Vatican would like us to forget these facts. Will we?

author by Ciaron - Catholic Workerpublication date Mon Sep 18, 2006 23:58author address author phone Report this post to the editors

The previous Pope as we are told was a footballer (goalie like Camus!), an actor, the Bishop of a diocese and thus predictably very tuned into playing to and countering the popular press..

We are told even by his critics that the present pope is an intellectual genius, worked in the Vatican for the pevious 20 years and before that as an academic before becoming Pope. One would assume not as tuned in to how a comment in a univesity lecture can be dumbed down, taken out of context, sensationalised and globalised by the popular press. Violence seems to be the worst response to the worst mis/reading of the quote. One way to lose an argument, you might not even be having!

It is said that the secular left is, numberswise, pretty irrelevant. The socialist project having been defeated by modernist capitalism/U.S. empire in an alliance with pre-modernist minority sections of Islam (see Saudi Arabia, see "Power of Nightmares", see the liquidation of the left in Indonesia, Afghanistan etc etc) It is said that "the Catholic church thinks in centuries". After seeing Al Gore's film tonight it's hard to imagine large numbers of people have got centuries left ecologically to turn this thing around. (I believe that humanity will survive a nuclear holocaust ecological meltdown, black plague, another dark age and we'll get it right in the end). I'd prefer repentance and nonviolent revolution and getting it right, now.

There are a billion Catholics and a billion Muslims...time for Catholics to study some Islam as many Catholics studied Marx in Latin America in the '70's for a basis for informed dialogue in reponse to what was once was mass movement there. It could be argued that dialogue made better Catholics and better Marxists without the need for converison to either camp. (maybe exolains why there wasn't so many executions of Somozaists after the Sandanista revolution in Nicaragua, maybe helps to understand the rise of the basic christian community movement from Latin America to the Philipines).

What would be helpful is to embrace this moment as a confessional moment, for the Christian churches to repent from its historical violence and challenge the way the U.S. empire is misusing Christianity to kill Muslims and others today and return to the radical nonviolent teachings of Christ.

Both the present Pope and the former mused that given the nature of modern warfare technology that the just war theory may now be irrelevant and impossibleto implement. More Prophetic nonviolent resistance form Christians www.peaceontrial.com www.jonahhouse.com etc
in defense of Muslime being bombed wholesale from the air would be the basis to challenge any retail violence coming from the other direction. Proactive defense of civil liberties of Muslims in the west as a basis for the demand for defense of christian minority civil liberites in Egypt, Afghanistan (where one guy was sentenced to death last year for conversion) etc

Anti-Catholic prejudice is not new to this island, it's an art form. I remember a Marxist friend (no fan of htis pope) originally from Omagh in Australia in the '80's saying "East Timor and Ireland, the only places you can get killed for merely being Catholic!" Not to be sensitive to that recent history on this site by indulging in flippant prejudices is only possible if you have complete internalised partition and imagine that where that was happening/ still happens is a world away. I guess if you could ignore what was happening 90 miles away could explain why folks have so successfully ignored what has happened for the past few years a few hours flight from Shannon.

Related Link: http://www.catholicworker.org
author by Johnpublication date Tue Sep 19, 2006 00:56author address author phone Report this post to the editors

You refer to the Pope as PapaNazi. You sound like a bit of a racist? You obviously consider all Germans of that age to be Nazis? Do you refer to Gunther Grass as GunterNazi? Grass actually volunteered for the SS as a mature adult. But, the whole Nazi thing is irrelevant to the Left's hatred of the Pope because they had the same hatred for the previous Pope and he was from Poland, the country the Alliance of Nazis and Communists invaded in September 1939.

author by Yusufpublication date Tue Sep 19, 2006 01:09author address author phone Report this post to the editors

If being a member of Hitler Youth and the Nazi army does not qualify you as a Nazi, what does? Not joining the German Resistance after thousands of brave Germans did? Proposing his good friend Josemaria Escriva, founder of Opus Dei and self-confessed fascist who served in the dictatorship of Franco and who openly praised Hitler, for sainthood? Refusing to shelter Jews? Being part of the anti-Liberation Theology movement along with the Friends of Augusto Pinochet and the CIA? Perhaps even Hitler was not a Nazi?

Me a Nazi? Him?
Me a Nazi? Him?

Related Link: http://www.natcath.com/NCR_Online/archives/060200/060200a.htm
author by Johnpublication date Tue Sep 19, 2006 02:39author address author phone Report this post to the editors

The Pope was 14 in the photograph you present. All German children were conscripted into the Hitler Youth at that age. He was never a member of the N. Socialist Party. Being against the version of Marxism known as Liberation Theology doesn't make a person a N. Socialist. Nope, I think you'll find Hitler was a N. Socialist. What's the difference between Socialism and N. Socialism anyway? He was 17 when the War ended. How is a 17-year-old boy supposed to shelter Jews? But your concern for Jews is touching given your support for the Islamic fundamentalists who wish to wipe out all Jews. Wonder how many Jews you'll shelter when your Islamic friends start killing them in Ireland.

author by Anabaptistpublication date Tue Sep 19, 2006 03:13author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Good article from Madeleine Bunting about how the Pope isn't a naive blunderer but a conniving provocateur and includes a smattering of some of his bon mots.

Related Link: http://www.guardian.co.uk/pope/story/0,,1875791,00.html
author by Yusufpublication date Tue Sep 19, 2006 08:39author address author phone Report this post to the editors

It would be mistaken to blame a young Catholic boy as Ratsinger was for having been caught up in the Nazi fervour of his seniors and superiors in the Bavarian Nazi Roman Church. The Roman Church authorities were strongly behind the the Nazi governments in Europe like Germany, Spain and Italy. Even here in Ireland they strongly opposed any social justice and change instead choosing to back nazism. Indeed that runs to the present day with the last pope posing with the murderer Pinochet on a visit to Chile and demanding the dropping of mass murder charges against him.

Anyone who believes the Roman Church intends anything other than moral, physical and spiritual subservience from those who give it credence and obedience are severely deluded.

I ask you, what but evil has come from the Roman Church mass murder of over 10 million people through inquisitions? What other than evil from its justification of slavery and the invasion and theft of South and Central America? Did they not spread Rome by the sword? Did they not give the "Savages" of the Americas the choice to die by the sword or convert?

What but evil came from the Crusades they endorsed? The wars of religion they started?

Who is this former Nazi soldier to point fingers. Is he so stupid he didn't know what he was saying and the offence it would causeor just so evil that he did know but did it anyway?

What gave you the idea we are Nazis/
What gave you the idea we are Nazis/

The Panzer Pope in Hitler Youth
The Panzer Pope in Hitler Youth

Saluting Hitler
Saluting Hitler

More salutes for Hitler
More salutes for Hitler

Orsenigo at Hitlers Birthday party
Orsenigo at Hitlers Birthday party

Related Link: http://www.nobeliefs.com/nazis.htm
author by Ciaron - Dublin Catholic Workerpublication date Tue Sep 19, 2006 09:37author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Anabaptist...point taken. He believes what he believes and knows what he knows. He claims to be open to an interfaith dialogue that some in other traditions may not be ready for. Part of their lack of readiness is that they are being bombed and exploited by a U.S. Empire run by those who cloak themselves in symbols and references to Christ (a few with such a weird take on the Book of Revelation...they want to bring the end of the world on!).

For a Muslim-Catholic dialogue to have any chance at this point in what looks to most a western war on Islam...Catholics would have to be a lot more visible nonviolently resisting tihs war in the west. More than a handful prophetic minority like Joshua Casteel (ex Abu Ghraib interogator/ now war resister), Fr. Carl Kabat OMI (imprisoned) and the recently acquitted Catholic Workers etc Catholic defense of the Muslim community as their civil liberties are crushed in western countries by new anti-terror laws woould have to be defended more than by Fr. Frank Brennan SJ (OZ) and the handful who are hiding out escapees from OZ outback gulags and doing outreach to those presently detained. That would be a possible context for an interfaith dialogue between Catholicism and Islam.

Catholicism could be mobilised int he west to confront Pax Americana and the escalating "war without end", the new neocon "crusdae" announced by Bush. Catholicism is more intellectually equipped than the teleevangelist cheerleaders for Bush, there are 50 million Catholics in the U.S. the most churchgoing part of the first world (40% of the general population compared to 4% in England) and the heart of the sole empire (operatiing without the deterence that existed during the 50 year Cold War).

An interfaith dialogue does not mean dissolving into mutuality. (It doesn't mean Protestants taking communiton at Catholic mass when their identitiy is in the breaking from that community. That would be a disrepect to real protestants and a denial of the fracture that need sot be addressed rather than pretending it doesn't exist) It means a better understnding of other traditions contribituing to a better understanding of ones own. In my life livinng and learnig from good Buddhists has made me a better radical catholic, organsing and taking risks with good secular anarchists has made me a better radical Catholic.

I know two anarcho Muslims in Dublin and London...I need to make time to listen to them about thier take on their own tradition. These Muslims have expressed they experience similar prejudices from adolescent anarchists that I have sometimes experienced over the years as a christian anarchist (their is no crime in being an adolescent, it is prolonging one's adolescence that is questionable). which brings me to the yusuf posts....

Yusuf you are posting on an Irish website! a small island where people have been targetted and assasinated merely for being Catholic by the British military in Derry and by anti-Catholic death squads over the last 30 years. Your posts display a certain insensitvity to my commmunity. I need to remind you that the Catholic church is a voluntary organisation. We all know where the door is and we have a hunch it will still swing open in 30 years if we decide to return. Sometimes (like for Phil Berrigan and Liz McAlister) we will be thrown out the door and we we still outside calling the church back to its origins, for the most part we will stay inside prophetically challenging it.

I have many friend s in Dublin and London who in their youth were members of th Stalinist pioneers. Some lacked any "fervour" for membership, some as kidz liked the uniform and were dazzled by the patriotism as the U.S. aimed nuclear weaopns at them does that make them Stalinist now? did it make them Stalinist in their youth?

The individual you attack was a youth in a country that was beng pounded by aerial bombardment of cities (a phenomenon denounced as a Nazi war crime at the beginning of WW2, later adopted by the allies and perfecteded over Hiroshima and Nagasaki, now just basic U.S. foreign policy and military strategy. That was the context of his youth. the previous Pope you denounce was on the other side of that conflict.

These postings made here would be similar in context and style to making anti-Baptist posts in the U.S. South in the 1960's after the Klan bombed Baptist churches . They lack a certain sensitivity to the dead and their survivors. They depreciate an authentic debate. There is room for criticising the Catholic community in Ireland even although it has been targetted recently with assasination and recently with assault and attacks on its churches and community. A little sensitivity and a bit more inteleuality would help in these criticsms.

Related Link: http://www.catholicworker.org
author by Miriampublication date Tue Sep 19, 2006 10:04author address author phone Report this post to the editors

The pope's statements are not an accident. He understands perfectly well what their impact would be - more than anyone perhaps. His election is a worrying lurch to the right at a time when the world cannot afford it. He is known to be a Catholic purist and not to have supported JPII's attempts at bridging gaps with other faiths. After the attacks on the church and the scandals of recent years, he wants to bring it back into the fold with the powerful, understanding that anti catholic propaganda as much as any genuine criticisms that can be made could yet destroy the church. Whether it is the faith or the institution of the church with which he is concerned is the worrying question for Catholics - the personal question. He is going to bring it to a crisis and frankly, the sooner the better. We have humoured the church's head in the sand nonsense on celibacy, homosexuality, divorce, contraception and women priests for far too long. There are of course those who are motivated by sheer bigotry and hatred of all things Catholic. Benedict is a gift to them.

I may be wrong, but he doesnt seem to have said anything at all to distance himself from Bush and Blairs' war of terror on Muslims. JPII was implacably opposed to that.

author by madonnapublication date Tue Sep 19, 2006 10:16author address author phone Report this post to the editors

religon has always been the cause of war, never the solution, the 21st century is no different

The catholic church is one of the biggest sinners of them all

Dont forget the catholic church closing its doors back in the days of need of the famine, the abusers it hides in its network and the land grabbing corporation it really is

author by Seamuseenpublication date Tue Sep 19, 2006 10:34author address author phone Report this post to the editors

I'd be inclined to go a bit further than Miriam. I'd say the present Pope may be very deliberately joining ranks with Bush & Blair? - and with Rupert Murdock, Sir Anthony O'Reilly, and many, many other such influential and like-minded people?

"This weekend, in a luxury hotel outside Washington, D.C.," said the announcer, "Europe's secret rulers are meeting their American counterparts – or that's what some people believe. Today is the start of the annual gathering of the Bilderberg group. Never heard of it? That's the whole point. It's officially described as a private gathering, but with a guest list including the heads of European and American corporations, political leaders and a few intellectuals, it's one of the most influential organizations on the planet."

Taken from:
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_I...27814

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=Bilderberg%2C+...earch

author by Miriampublication date Tue Sep 19, 2006 10:54author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Jon Ronson did an expose of them in the Guardian about ten years ago, I think. Really chilling stuff. They are beginning to be less secretive than they were. Hilary Clinton has a reference to them on her website. Time was when nobody would admit to being a member. Peter Mandelson is involved, I think, as was Denis Healy. Ronson printed a transcript of a telephone conversation with Healy ('the best prime minister we never had' they say) during which Ronson challenged him about the fact that the group was bypassing democracy completely and that ordinary people had no idea that the whole global agenda was being decided off the scenes in this way. Healy said something pretty close to 'well that's just the way it works'. When pressed further Healy told Ronson to 'fuck off' and put the phone down on him. Nice.

There is no accident in what Benedict is up to and his election was yet another example where the process was dibbled with beforehand, pretty much guaranteeing Benedict would be elected. He's the pope for Bush and Blair ok. JPII sent Blair packing with a flea in his ear when he asked him to support the war of terror.

author by redjadepublication date Tue Sep 19, 2006 11:02author address author phone Report this post to the editors

'religon has always been the cause of war

I think religion, like any other ideology, has been used to justify and promote war - while economics tends to be the leading reason why wars happen.

God is the ultimate trump card justification - 'God is on our side' is a phrase that seems most effective to motivate young men to kill other young men, and that's why the Adults always use the phrase.

'never the solution'

not true - reverse what I wrote above and its all the same.

Religion like any other ideology, can be used to justify peace and end war - otherwise 'The Good Friday Agreements' wouldn't have much resonance.

author by Trilateral fan - -publication date Tue Sep 19, 2006 11:49author address author phone Report this post to the editors

For a more up-to-date analysis of Bildeberg pls read

"Murio la Verdad"
Infiltrating Bilderberg 2005
By Daniel Estulin

http://www.counterpunch.org/estulin05272005.html

author by Anabaptistpublication date Tue Sep 19, 2006 13:51author address author phone Report this post to the editors

I'd agree with what you say about interfaith dialogue not being possible unless Catholics were much more obviously involved in protecting Muslims. I don't agree with any of the Bilderberg stuff above which strikes me as conspiratorial and unprovable. Elites tend to share similar beliefs because unless you conduct a revolution you only get to be in power if you believe in the system.

That said, I think that the current Pople demonstrates very well that the hierarchical nature of the Catholic church is a dangerous thing and that reform from within is probably not possible.

author by pat cpublication date Tue Sep 19, 2006 14:31author address author phone Report this post to the editors

I support Pope Bennys right to free speech. As I have already pointed out though I think its a case of the pot calling the kettle black. In the name of Christianity many countries were conquered, tens of millions were foribly converted, driven out or put to the sword.

Yes, Christianity and Islam are both nasty belief systems.

It doesnt mean that I would stop Pope Benny from citing his holy texts but I will let a Rabbi have the last word on that. Anyway Benny badly needs some media savvy spindoctors. He succeeded in insulting a lot of Jews yesterday by citing St Paul: "we preach the crucified Christ - a scandal for the Jews, a folly for the pagans".

Rabbi Jonathan Romain responded: " The Pope has every right to quote his own holy texts, but it may be unwise in the current climate to choose those which refer to other faiths."

author by Ciaron - Dublin Catholic Workerpublication date Tue Sep 19, 2006 15:36author address author phone Report this post to the editors

This papacy is different form the last one. It's going to be a lot shorter. If anything Benedict is a pruner not an expansionist recruiter.

The U.S. presently run by folks with dodgy Christian theology) has only a few potential opponents since the collpase of USSR
-China (1 billion)
-a United Euro economy (Britain pays the role of sabotaging that)
-Catholicism (1 billion)
-Islam (1 billion)

The interactions -hostile and flirtatious -between these phenomenon are something to watch. The secular left -parliamentary and exytraparliamentary - is no longer the force it was (Unions, student movement, youth culture antiwar movement, environmental etc) however much activity there is in cyberspace on sites like these.

I'm not celebrating that, just pointing it out. Power, wealth status co-opts all traditions. Ours has been around for 2,000 years that's alot of time for co-option. But there are radicals in all traditions you need to respect and hook up with on the basis of nonviolence and direct democracy. Everyone, no matter how wrong you think they are, deserves respect and free expression.

Related Link: http://www.catholicworker.org
author by Miriampublication date Tue Sep 19, 2006 17:44author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Here is the link to the wikipedia entry:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bilderberg_Group

author by Robynpublication date Wed Sep 20, 2006 04:29author email peacefulwarriorprincess at yahoo dot com dot auauthor address Australiaauthor phone Report this post to the editors

The Pope said it.
I don't believe it.
That settles it.

buy the tshirt here www.cafepress.com/greenviking

author by Bollocks Indymedia!! - SWPpublication date Wed Sep 20, 2006 05:41author address author phone Report this post to the editors

I'm glad your colours finally show hypocrites, If a Celtic Wolfe posted an image of a Nazi swastika it would have been rightly removed as offensive.

Yet you have no problem using such a hateful image as a smear against someone you disagree with.

Ahh ,the internet Heroes who condemn a man for being impressed into the Hitler Jugend at the age of 12, yes heroes tell us all how YOU would have resisted.

Yusef tell us at 12 years old how brave you were laddie?

Ignore the realities of being a Child of pre-military age in Nazi Germany, how long after saying no thanks to membership in the HJ would you have either had a Luger at your neck or been in Flossenburg Koncentrations Laeger?

And who was Murdered a Moslem?

no, it was an Italian Nun, 60 years old, working with the sick.

Real honour for Allah , one of his adherents backshoot's a senior citizen & you defend the Moslem outrage?

FOR SHAME Sean Ryan, Yusef, et al.

where is YOUR Humanity?

Are you all sure your not closet UFF Redhanders?

author by Anti-Nazi - SWPpublication date Wed Sep 20, 2006 05:48author address author phone Report this post to the editors

And Yusef, as for catholics being Nazi's, I seem to remember the Grand Mufti of Jeruselem was Hitlers Houseguest for the duration of the war boyo. Does that mean the leader of Moslems was a Nazi as well, ergo all Moslems are Nazi's? There were Moslem SS units- 13th Handshar division committing war crimes all throught the Balkans, Nazi's in Fezz's.

Related Link: http://www.srpska-mreza.com/handzar/handzar.htm
author by UnAmericanpublication date Wed Sep 20, 2006 08:26author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Must be an American intitiative to have the t-shirt out so quickly?

That's why Americans are running the world, the war and the peace movement. They know how to market and hit the gorund running. Prejudice is always a good marketing tool.

Reminds you of the inflammable flags they were selling when the burn the flag issue was big in the U.S.

author by Jimmy From Ballygomartinpublication date Wed Sep 20, 2006 12:31author address author phone Report this post to the editors


I met a German oldage pensioner in a bar in Heidelberg who boasted that not everyone could get into the Hilter Youth but like him you were selected for your fascistic views and Ayran backgound. After 1945 this was not dwelt on by members. Ratzinger, judged on his form since 1945 definitely passed.

author by Chris Murraypublication date Wed Sep 20, 2006 13:41author address author phone Report this post to the editors

freedland@guardian.co.uk has an interesting overview of the benedictum,

Some points: "He appears to join Osama Bin Laden in the effort to cast
the current conflict as a clash of civilisations-complicatedly and dense in footnotes
he is, at bottom trying to establish the superiority of one faith over another."

The whole piece is good, inproviding a political overview of the crisis.

On another tangent: Murdoch has started a company called FOXFAITH. it's
hollywood Christianity, that is where the big bucks are, first movie: Love's
Abiding Joy.

Quote from Hollywood insider"I don't know where their hearts are, but we have to be realistic
they have found an audience out there where Hollywood can make a lot of money
and they are tapping into that" (quite)

Good photo of a mass charismatic/conservative Christian gathering. The type that
feeds on mass energy and votes for hawk administrations. Mass Propoganda.

(Guardian Unlimited)

author by iosafpublication date Thu Sep 21, 2006 11:55author address author phone Report this post to the editors

in case people have missed it :-

* Ratzinger has issued a second apology / clarification. We now have 4 statements.
* the EU came out in support of him.
* the emergent "non-alligned powers" also came out calling for restraint. The most important statement coming from the Iranian prime minister who speaking in Venezuela where he's been all week called for a little bit of understanding and mutual respect.
* the complete text of the Ratzinger speech has been issued and published in commercial newspapers, interestingly the offending section has been printed with and without "inverted commas" in it's different translated versions...
* the Pope has made a public appearance in Rome using the oldest pope mobile (a converted jeep) which has no bullet proof armour, this appearance of course is very open to interpretation.
* Al Jazeera adopted a mild satirical stance airing a cartoon which showed the last pope releasing doves of peace which are then fired at by ratzinger with a shotgun.

Now my analysis on what's going on remembering that I said above it is more important how this plays out than what exactly he said :-

Since Pope JP2 released doves in Rome and they flew back into his room and he subsequently caught the flu which hastened his death - I've taken an interest in explaining the complex agenda adjactent to Ratzinger's rise to power. Quite a few of my "sunday papers" pieces featured "pope news". We have seen an attempt by the RC church to allign on many social and political issues with the Christian right of the USA. That approach has seen close co-operation on abortion, stem cell research, genetics, gay marriage & AIDS. Ratzinger went to Germany earlier this year to meet as he does annually with ex students of theology. The theme (as reported by chris) this year was "evolution" the debate was proposed by the Austrian cardinal (and once a favourite to be pope). This discussion was another step in searching for a "united global christian front". We can see political spin-off from this emerging front in the approach taken by Ratzinger's Vatican in Europe. All we need do is remember the hostility to left governments and their "social reform" in both Spain and Italy. At the same time in the "islamic" world attempts have been made at many levels to show a "united front". A front in which Iran dearly wants to play a "leadership" role. We know no-one yet speaks for "global christianity" just as no-one speaks for "global islam". For the moment however, I think the Iranians and Al Jazeera have come out of this ratzinger thing quite well. Better than they emerged from the cartoon clash last year and on the other side I have seen more support come from the EU and significantly the "pro-gay marriage secular left" regimes, (Spain & Italy) for Ratzinger now - than has come from the USA. The born again fundamentalist christians of the mid west are still "at war" but they have not accepted a papist catholic as their inellectual ally yet. They'll need a kathurlick president before that happens.

it is no-one's interest that Ratzinger be seen as a "martyr" for any cause.
Least of all one which pitches the church of Christ against the heritage of Fatima.

author by take itpublication date Thu Sep 21, 2006 12:10author address author phone Report this post to the editors

its crap TBH

muslims burn effiegies of the pope whilst they complain that the pope insults them and therefore they are entitled to burn effiegies and lay threats to his life

ROFL

anyone see the IRONY

The pope comments were totally correct, mohammed bbrought religon on the point of a sword, in fact all religon has been at one point or another enforced by the sword

so WTF is the problem>??

author by Chris - .publication date Thu Sep 21, 2006 12:20author address author phone Report this post to the editors


"Benedict XVI's weekend meeting with his 'Schulerkreis', or circle of former doctoral students
in Castelgandalfo came and went without the major new statement on evolution that some had rather "Breathlessly anticipated"

The proceedings of the Schulerkreis will be published in November.
This will be the first time that papers from one of the Schulerkreis meetings will be published.

Prior to the sept 1-3 session, Schonborn delivered two lectures on the theory of Evolution in Rimini and Alpbach.

Schuster sadi BenedictXVI made it clear that he's interested in the relationship between the church and the sciences, especially biology. (SHUDDER)

From The Catholic Reporter.

(now all he needs is a charismatic leader, to bring us back a couple of centuries in women's rights)

author by Paul Bpublication date Thu Sep 21, 2006 13:46author address author phone Report this post to the editors

What Ciaron says about Benedict being a pruner and not a recruiter goes to the heart of the matter. One shouldn’t presume that he wants to make everyone a Catholic – more likely he wants to make those who are Catholics buy into a more hardcore version of Catholicism. Less a la carte Catholicism is the aim, methinks. The pope seems to me to have a vision for a leaner and more on-message global Catholic population.

I personally think this is a more honest approach – one of the reasons I rejected Catholicism was that I didn’t agree with things like ‘no sex before marriage’ and ‘no condoms’ etc. However, many Irish I know still attend mass and would call themselves Catholics, but would happily enjoy casual sex, for example.

RE: Ciaron’s four potential opponents for the US:
"-China (1 billion)
-a United Euro economy (Britain pays the role of sabotaging that)
-Catholicism (1 billion)
-Islam (1 billion)"
First of all, I don’t think Catholicism is a real candidate. It is an interesting idea. But I don’t think it’s a runner, because the 1 billion ain’t a monolith. I think that there’s too much internal political diversity for them to present successful unified opposition to the US.

As for the other three, the issue here is that if any of these were to replace the US hegemony, we’d still be facing a different version of the same old issue of imperialism. Furthermore, I remember you saying at the Greenbelt festival (http://www.indymedia.ie/article/77651) in that debate about Northern Ireland that the nation-state paradigm was being overtaken. I agree that there is the potential for this to happen, but I feel that your three remaining opponents feed into that paradigm. China obviously does, the united euro economy is the nation-state approach mapped onto a western European scale, and for me, Islam is becoming a Middle-Eastern equivalent of national identity.

For me, the only potential emancipatory opposition to the US would be some kind of (so-called) Third World coalition forming a challenge to the current global economic orthodoxy. I would see this as being partnered with transnational anti-globalisation networks, which would include non-state actors from within the US. This would include the secular left you refer to, but also corporate NGOs from Amnesty International to Christian Aid.

I share your pessimism about co-option really, but we have to hope. As well as all the negative stuff, one of the consequences of the current form of globalisation is the strengthening of these anti-imperial networks. For me, one solution, and one way to move away from the state-centric paradigm, is to move from exclusionary identities to a concept of overlapping identities.

Benedict's speech suggests to me that he buys into this exclusionary idea of identity, and yes, also the clash of civilisations idea of Islam versus the West.

author by Ciaron - Dublin Catholic Workerpublication date Thu Sep 21, 2006 20:42author address author phone Report this post to the editors

I don't think any of those phenomenons, including the U.S., are a monoloths.

There are 50 million Catholics in the U.S.
There are more practising Catholics in the U.S. than in Western Europe.

As Rupert Modoch concluded this week (see Guardian reference above) there are 100 million evangelical/fundamentalist Christians in the U.S.
The U.S. is the only "church going" part of the first world (40% of U.S. claims to go to church/ 4% of Britain claims to go to church...there are now more practising Muslims in Britain than Anglicans in terms of church going).

The hostility that exists in Euro-rad social movements (I think the term "left" is redundant, merely describing the seating arrangements in the original French parliement) to faith based activism and the general issue of spirituality does not exists to such an extent in the U.S. (partly because of the great social movements being historically led by faith based activists MLK, socialgospel, Dorothy Day, Berrigans).

I think it's a waste of time and energy for radicals to try and convince peple to give up their religious traditions and spirituality. They don't need an anarcho-inquisition into that....how people make sense of the existential questions of....
What the fuck am i doing here?
and I'm not going to be here for long?
......is there personal business....whether it be Islam, Buddhism, Catholicism, the pixies at the end of the garden. It doesn't stop them arriving at similar ethical conclusions and politics.

Leave those superior cynical pot shots to the liberals (some who have posted here!) who aren't serious about the redistribution of wealth or moving out of their comfort zone to resist empire.

Chavez blesses himself and attacks Bush's agenda and "the smell of sulpher" at the U.N. yesterday
The Latin Americans are another phenomenon...how much their resistance is part of a Catholic phenomenon?

What a radical does is support libertarian streams in China, U.S. Islam, Catholicism, Latin America.
They are there just put some effort into looking for them.
What a liberal does is denounce the spiritual beliefs of the poor as unsophisticated and inferior to their own post modern enlightenement.

The movement will be an ecumenical intersection across all traditions...where in practise rad catholics will hook up with rad Buddhists, rad Muslims, rad anarchists on the bais of nonviolence and direct democracy.

Allour traditions will be co-opted.
It took 100 years to co-opt trade unions, 20 years to co-opt feminism, 10 years to co-opt punk and five years to co-opt rap. They have been working on catholicism for 2,000 years (we had a pretty good run for the first 300 years before the Constantine shift and the just war theory).

But there are radicals in all those traditions (and in Dublin) worth hooking up to stop war and ressusitate the environment.

Related Link: http://www.peaceontrial.com
author by sofia +publication date Thu Sep 21, 2006 21:15author address author phone Report this post to the editors

november 5th is a great day to see such displays of hatred. when living in London I was invited by Engurlish pals to go to Lewis on the Sussex coast which has one of the most traditional guy fawkes displays in that cursed bigotted land. Great fun too. The compere of the fiesta stood dressed as the pope on the platform telling us how much the fireworks cost & how we were to be careful as they rolled burning wheels down to the cliffs to remember beating the spaniards. The kids aimed their rockets & bangers at him. The village ambulance and fire brigade were there to douse him when he went up in flames. "all clean fun". And yes they did chant with the "f" word.
Effigy burning is as old as human representation.

I have deliberately not given you the complete text of Ratzinger's speech. I note not one of you has added it. So we are all (as we often are) commenting about something we're not really fully clued in on. I suggest to you that unhappy kids burning effigies in Malaysia or Pakistan probably haven't read the pope's speech either. That is how things work. isn't it?

as for the extent of christian or RC fundamentalism as accepting that it is a mirror image of Islamic fundamentalism in many respects, & i would suggest a reaction to millenialism & global hegemony of Hollywood's interpretation of social liberalisation :-

remember that Ratzinger is most staunchly supported by those catholics who quote Paul to the ephesians on family relations but go silent when you ask them for their position on slavery citing the exact same chapter & verse. Social progress in Europe was made despite & often in conflict with the RC church, hence the masonic legacy. Whereas in the USA christian pastors such as Martin luther king played a great role in social equality. How do want or expect such liberalisation to occur not only in secular states such as Syria but the islamic republic of Iran? Do we want them to be force fed with Hollywood movies and TV teaching them how to "relax"? Or do we stop challanging them & allow them to get on with it?

I'll leave it over to the others for the moment - till I collate the Ratzinger speech in translation together with the Vatican two statements and his 2 statements & the links to IRNA (where the ayatollah's response was published, a response which was as hard line as the iranian prime minister's was soft).

author by Paul Baynespublication date Fri Sep 22, 2006 01:04author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Ciaron! I was looking forward to your response, but wasn’t expecting this! I’m surprised to be accused of taking “superior cynical pot shots”- it wasn’t intended as such. No need to be defensive of your spirituality, which I do respect, whether you believe it or not.

I do think it’s important to try to identify what the potential challenges are to the current US-led world order, and thought that your formulation of these was interesting. I was responding to this. I wasn’t trying to dismiss Catholicism or trying to “convince people to give up their religious traditions and spirituality”. I’ve been going to a Christian festival for three years running, despite having lost my own faith, so I certainly don’t think that Christianity is irrelevant. (I get defensive of my own views myself being surrounded by all those Christians, so I understand where you’re coming from).

But I agree with you that people’s take on “existential questions” are their own “personal business....whether it be Islam, Buddhism, Catholicism, the pixies at the end of the garden. It doesn't stop them arriving at similar ethical conclusions and politics.”
This is the very reason I think that a challenge to the US order will not be on the basis of a Catholic point of view for most Catholics.

In my significant experience of Catholicism in Ireland, very few people infuse their lives with the original spirit of the Catholic faith in the same way that you do. Before I gave up my own faith, when I was in school, I saw that most of my fellow pupils weren’t taking their religion too seriously. I respect those whose religion inspires them to act ethically and move out of their comfort zone, but I fear that most nominal Catholics are not willing to take this step. For that reason I am doubtful that Catholicism will be a basis for much opposition to the current world order.

In fact, what you have described is very close to what I would hope for:
“The movement will be an ecumenical intersection across all traditions...where in practise rad catholics will hook up with rad Buddhists, rad Muslims, rad anarchists on the bais of nonviolence and direct democracy”.

For me, it doesn’t matter what inspires somebody. As I wrote on another thread about the current debates about the future of indymedia, the important thing is that we unite on the basis of what is common to us all. If your personal inspiration is Catholicism, Islam, humanism, socialism, or whatever, I’m not trying to score points.

I’m not saying Catholicism can’t inspire people to resist US hegemony – what I meant is that I don’t anticipate a large scale Catholic mobilization, which is what you seemed to be referring to. I’d love to see mass opposition to the war, for example, articulated as an expression of Catholicism. But I’d imagine that a broad Catholic opposition to the New American Century is less likely than, for example, a broad Islamic opposition, because of the current popularity of applying Huntingdon’s clash of civilizations thesis to Islam and the West. I felt that the pope’s comments fed into this dangerous fallacy.

author by Miriampublication date Fri Sep 22, 2006 10:32author address author phone Report this post to the editors

One of the distinctions between Roman and 'Protestant' chrisitianity has been the Calvinistic notion of 'the elect' which basically means that it is already decided by God who will and will not be going to heaven. John Updike picks all those attitudes out in some of his novels. Successful types tend to be assumed to be going to heaven. You have to live your life as best you can but it might all be for nothing anyway - you wont know until you die. Add to that gloomy lottery the fact that Free Trade is literally an article of faith for some groups in the USA and you begin to understand some of the unfeeling and voracious nature of the fundamentalism that lies behind the Bush agenda. It is a God given right - a holy injunction even - to go on making as much money and capital as possible - that's just making the best of what the Good God gave you access to. The religion of capitalism? The WASP mentality?

Ciaron has articulated something I was struggling with on another thread where Labour Party people were expressing their disgust at sharing a platform with Kathy Sinnott in opposing the EU constituition because of her conservative views on marriage, abortion etc. What matters is what people have in common - the conclusions we share irrespective of faith, unfaith or whatever - if achieving social justice is the shared aim? Insisting on a perfect symmetry of conviction among 'the left' is as arrogant and exclusive as an dictum that only Catholics, The Elect or whoever may be going to heaven. Its needless, divisive and dangerous insecurity.

author by The Great Djerginskipublication date Fri Sep 22, 2006 11:13author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Well done Yusef. You have given the Catholics some historical realities to ponder while they are down chewing altar rail.

author by Chris Murraypublication date Fri Sep 22, 2006 11:37author address author phone Report this post to the editors

The full text of the speech, which I contend focusses on eugenics and
intelligent design was removed from another thread. (C+P)

there is a link to the speech beneath the red writing.

things to remember: it was for an academic and priveleged audience.
it links into the Schulerkreis.

and the thread is almost running parallel to this in terms of conclusion, but ipsiphi/iosaf/sofia
gets more comments.

author by Ciaron - Dublin Catholic Worker (personal capacity)publication date Fri Sep 22, 2006 17:16author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Paul,
Criticisms directed towards "liberals" were not directed to you or your post...I've got you down as a "radical community gardener". Correct me if I'm wrong!

Miriam
There was an interesting discussion going in San Franciso over a decade ago between women who were nonviolently blockading abortion clinics and women who were escorting clinic clients through blockades for terminations. These women although differing on an issue that ends a lot of discussion, friendships and parties when it surfaces....found they had a lot in common in terms of supporting initiatives and reforms for women generally and women with kids.

All
The state unifies quickly (and stays unified) around specific objectives of profit and power and how to expand it (their are sometime schisms a growing one with the neocons and the Pentagon over losing the war in Iraq)...the utopians usually defeat themselves over prioritsing their differences as insurmountable rather than what they have in common. Often imploding before the state has a chance to deal with them.

I think the Anti-Authroitarian Assembly and the Anti War Network are good rituals to keep mutual aid going and increase a better understanding of other fellow travellers positions (and they contribute a better understnding of your own with repectful challenge that doesn't have to mean circling the wagons) . I think the internet is the junk food of communication in comaprison to face to face...I eat too much junk food and I sped too much time on the internet (A confessional moment!)

You can rest assured there is a huge debate and reflection within the Catholic community about this papacy. You know from your own experience I assume when someone from the outside flippantly attacks your family community, challenges its very existence, that folks are going to circle the wagons. I would think that is what has put a stop to the grassroots reform process in Iran at the moment with the U.S. military appearing on either side over the last few years, for example.

Clarification of further reflection....obviously Latin America is generally part of the Catholic phenomenon. No matter how much small Trot groups try to own (or create a new poster boy to replace Che) out of what is happening now in Venezeula, in East Timor in the '90's or Nicaragua in the '80's as their own....it's got a lot more to do with left Catholicism than Marxism. saying that it is a catholicism informed by the left and the questions being posed theby left in Latin America over the last decades.

The Catholic church is a voluntary organisation.
It is 2,000 years old.
There are a billion Catholics.
It is very pluralist phenomenon - multicultural, global, full of religious orders, movements (monastic, prophetic, mission orientated etc)
The Pope is the teaching authority of the church.
The Catholic determines their ethical behavior through an informed conscience, which has primacy.
Catholics inform their conscience through the sacraments, raeding of scripture, (most of the history of the church and maybe most practising Catholics today is/are illiterate...that's why ritual/sacarment is more significant in our tradition than many protestant ones that take off after the printing press is invented etc), teachings of the church and getting reality checks from their faith community.

author by c murraypublication date Fri Sep 22, 2006 17:20author address author phone Report this post to the editors

There is another story about the Benedictum?

The speech is here: http://zenit.org/english/visualizza.phtml?sid=94748

the disection on dogmatic/eugenics/ and the need for de-centralising the control nexus of
the vatican power-base are here:

http://www.indymedia.ie/article/78467

author by Fatimapublication date Fri Sep 22, 2006 17:33author address author phone Report this post to the editors

The acknowledgement of scandal would be a beginning.
Reading Fatima: catholicism celebrated the destruction of Allende as a communist.
They believed that it was necessary to halt communism.

The power base that was enforced as a result of that celebration has led to many deaths.
I do not seriously believe that catholicism celebrates Pinochet, but these issues need
clearing up. The role of Benedict in the silencing of Leonardo Boff-who wanted a democraticised
de-centralised church to help the poor instead of a dogmatic power base invoved in denial of its sins.
The problems of catholicism in Central and South America and how it facilitated the US
power base and white supremacy must needs investigation.

Some of those political issues were directly to do with the present Pope.

No-one is questioning the need for people to express their faith, but to be caught up in
the destruction of elected governments and torture in order to preserve a dogmatic
centralised control does require mature investigation.

author by ?publication date Fri Sep 22, 2006 17:44author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Besides a stong anti-Catholic streak shared by the LVF and the KKK why would it concern you?
As has been pointed out it's a voluntary organisation.
"How many divisions does the Pope command?" Uncle Joe Stalin.
If you don't like it, don't join!
If you're in it, don't like it, leave

Let the Catholic lefties and Catholic facists fight it out in the context of their own tradition.
If you can't help yourself but stick your nose into other peoples business and voluntary organisations...choose a faction and support them.

author by DennisLpublication date Fri Sep 22, 2006 17:44author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Yeah C, there was an article talking offering evidence against the commonly held ideas that the Crusaders were blood-thirsty, whereas the Islamic armies were peacable. Basically (I'm no expert, but the person who wrote the article obviously was) the premise of the argument was that the Crusaders were not a nice group, but no more than other armies of the time (including Islamic ones). It also called for a discontinuation of the kind of "kid-gloves" treatment that the Islamic faith has enjoyed recently. There is a lot wrong with the Islamic faith as practised by Muslims today, that need to addressed before any real integration of cultures can begin to happen. It criticised the reaction, and the showed how the statement and the intent was reasonable criticism of Islam.

The article was one of the best I've seen here. Well written, well referenced

My own thoughts are that the Pope was making quite good points about the need for reason and peace in religion, things that are lacking in elements of the Islamic following of present. He could have saved us some trouble by including statements recognising that the Catholic Church is not innocent of bloodshed, but he didn't. Still this reaction is totally unnacceptable to any rational person., very clear.

The references to the Pope being a Nazi are pathetic.

author by iosafpublication date Sat Sep 23, 2006 19:08author address author phone Report this post to the editors

And so the Holy See has invited all its credited ambassadors from muslim majority states to meet with the Roman Pontiff at Castlegandalfo, this Monday Morning at 11h30am.
That really is quite something. It has never happened before indeed. The "muslim world" from Albania to Pakistan, Tunisia to Libia will get to chat "inter-religious relations" with the German Shepherd. I wonder will we get to read the statements after?
There are of course notable exceptions. Saudi Arabia like most of the Arabic peninsula states doesn't hold diplomatic relations with the Vatican. The meeting in Castlegandalfo is a few miles from the holies sites of Catholicism, and the meeting won't get reported firsthand to the princes of Saud and custodians of Mecca. Nor indeed will Mauritania be present. Put "mauritania" through our search engine & you'll learn about their last coup d'etat, peculiar relations with the EU (via Spain) and diplomatic oddities. They have an Isreali embassy but no Papal nuncio.

Which sort of brings me to the most hilarious but crazy looney right reaction to all this. As we know both Italy and Spain's left wing governments which are not too loved by Rome expressed support for the Pope & appealed for tolerance. Spain's catholic church has fainlly come to a "funding" deal with the state of Spain. This has been a provisionally agreed matter since the end of Franco's dictatorship. It emerges now that they have agreed that it's the catholics who ought pay for the catholic church, but we sort of prefer their churches & cathedrals belonging to "all of us" (coz they're dinky, pretty & tourist attractions) & thus we won't support the RC church if it ever sells advertising space on a cathedral roof to Coca Cola. This wonderful agreement brought out plucky little mister Aznar. (you remember him). His reaction to church funding & pope effigy burning has been quite ludicrously engaging. "the muslims ought apologise for invading Spain!".

Oh yes. Which time? the caliphate of the crusades with their medieval hats the current pope loves to wear & shocking writers he might not quote again? or the last year's of globalised desperation which brought migrants in their millions?

God (peace be upon him) is above all this.

author by Statin' the Obvious.publication date Sat Sep 23, 2006 19:58author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Well that's more inter-ideological interaction than you get from most left groups in my experience!

author by Gandalf the Greypublication date Sat Sep 23, 2006 20:17author address author phone Report this post to the editors

This castle was of course the meeting place of the Schulerkreis.
I hope they are using incense.

author by bilbopublication date Sun Sep 24, 2006 14:11author address author phone Report this post to the editors

get it? no?
oh well.

author by Gandalf the Greypublication date Sun Sep 24, 2006 14:27author address author phone Report this post to the editors

could not be compared to Benedict,

He was allied to the evil forces who cut down trees, spread war and destruction
used black magick for forcing his issues. That would imply charisma, intelligence
and emotional complexity.

Tolkien criticised Lewis for his Masculinist interpretation of dogma in
for example:- The Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe, which was Lewis' excuse
for ending their mutual academic friendship- but Tolkien ended it by
criticising Lewis' marriage to a divorcee.

Both Lewis and Tolkien used middle earth mytholgical struggles to disseminate
mass exoteric theological systemisations, believing the mass incapable of
self-determination. Lewis' theology was simplistic and dogmatic- Tolkien's
rigourously intellectual and even more dogmatic.

Benedict may have taught Saruman, but he certainly has no charisma in relaying
his dogmatic truisms.

author by Ernst Udet 7th - Jasta 11publication date Sun Sep 24, 2006 22:16author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Yer man only said he was sorry because he had to, he's not sorry at all.

author by cat stevenspublication date Mon Sep 25, 2006 11:31author address author phone Report this post to the editors

But he doesn't now. Learn How Cat Stevens (yussuf islam) the man US homeland security thought a terrorist threat & who has since cleared his name struggles to understand the pope :-
http://www.torontodailynews.com/index.php/WorldNews/200...-pope

author by Chris Murray - The unmanspublication date Mon Sep 25, 2006 12:23author address author phone Report this post to the editors

I recently received an egg holder, from a women's Aids clinic in Africa.
It is constructed from a brown facecloth, twisted into a loop and ribboned
with a small white bow. Two small yellow , eyes and floppy ears
complete it. The women made it for their small kids, little mementoes.

I used get beautiful needlework cranes- the national birds of Africa (SA)
and necklaces, but the area of Boxburg has been decimated by Aids.

Its a poignant little thing. nothing to do with with the heavy tomes
on ecclesiastical dogmatic theory, but about loss and hope. They are
the words that are needed in times of war, not this conflaguration of divison
and intolerance promulgated by a the temporal leader of one of many religions.

Concilliation=tolerance=peace.

author by Not a Dhimmipublication date Mon Sep 25, 2006 17:16author address author phone Report this post to the editors

"Yer man only said he was sorry because he had to, he's not sorry at all."

Good for the Pope. He's been very clever in exposing the religious INTOLERANCE of Islam, which by it's very folundation is intolerant of other faiths to the point of committing murder and mayhem against:
Hindus, Buddhists, Zoarastrians, Animists etc....Christians and Jews are allowed to live as long as they accept Dhimmitude and pay protection money...failure to do so is hazardous to ones health when living among adherents to the Religion of Peace.

author by micheal o coinneainpublication date Fri Sep 29, 2006 11:43author address author phone Report this post to the editors

islam means peace. it preaches peace. the christian religion has been spread more by the sword than islam i.e.crusades. the prophet muhammed preaches dont transgress the limits of war for god loveth not the transgressors. aka. dont kill civillians. the religion isnt flawed its the minority of people who do these atrocities

author by Chris Murraypublication date Fri Sep 29, 2006 11:52author address author phone Report this post to the editors



Thats a metaphor- a lot of mythological systems, religions, fairy tales carry messages.
The literal translation of biblical matter is what seems to cause the problem.
I expect someday the historians will write about the post-millenial disease
of biblical literalism which is tearing our world apart. The Bushite brand of 'young creationism'
and the other side.

The problem is, that within the white noise of the bible bashing and fear, the dogmatism of
the orthodox translations of all the 'holy books' , has led to death, ecological warfare
and disaster as well as Mass movements of dispossessed people and abuse of the planet.

The truly christain/muslim/jewish/hindu /buddhist and everyone else should be
thinking about ways of solving these abuses and issues like Dharfur, instead
its all about control and temporal power.

author by PaddyKpublication date Fri Sep 29, 2006 12:20author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Islam does not mean Peace.

Islam means submission,or that at least is the nearest interpretation of what is a complex Arab word that has deep spiritual and religious implicaitons for devout Muslims.

Submission to the will of Allah.

author by horseypublication date Fri Sep 29, 2006 13:07author address author phone Report this post to the editors

a complex Arab word that has deep spiritual and religious implicaitons for devout Muslims

Thats a load of horseshit, and i sniff a goon that excuses suicide bombers

Islam is the acceptance of a view or a condition which previously was not accepted. In the language of the Holy Qur'an, Islam means the readiness of a person to take orders from God and to follow them

author by PaddyKpublication date Fri Sep 29, 2006 13:21author address author phone Report this post to the editors

I Said : Islam means , Submission to the will of Allah.

Horse lover says:
Thats a load of horseshit........Islam means the readiness of a person to take orders from God and to follow them

Much as I hate to be in agreement with a man who craves the love of a good horse, it appears I am.

author by winston smithpublication date Tue Oct 10, 2006 22:24author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Which all good catholics (except those in prison in non-internet service states such as Eire) may read here :-
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/speeches..._ftn3

One month for the "inverted commas" to appear ( http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6034895.stm )

As of yet there is no "You Tube" video of his speech.

+ go forth & make one.

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