What Must you do to be Excommunicated?

dublin | rights, freedoms and repression | opinion/analysis

Saturday October 28, 2006 14:20

by Chris Murray

Pope Benedict to Visit Ireland with the Queen.

Todays Papers state the Pope Benedict will visit the North of Ireland Next year.
He is to be Invited to beatify Saint Columbana. The proposed visit is being
requested by Dr Martin and envisages also a joint visit by HRH The Queen.
The most recent report of Pope Benedict was a couple of days ago , when
he deplored the activities of the Fern's Priests who got away with child abuse
and tortured a generation of Irish Children. There was no acceptance of
responsibility by the Roman Catholic Church in the statement on Ferns.
http://www.indymedia.ie/article/79298

The excommunication request is simple; It is no longer acceptable to me as an Irish
woman baptised in the Faith of the Roman Catholic Church (admittedly a second generation convert) to be a member of a centralised control nexus which fails to recognise my individuality as a member of the human race. The successive dictats of the
Roman Catholic church which have driven the politics of Ireland for too long, have oppressed generations of women by foisting on us a morality which fails to honour our dignity as people. The Church has shown itself to be a politcal animal which interferes in the rights of people and governments by foisting a jaundicied and anti-woman
stance on the politics of nations.

The recent campaign by members of that centralised and undemocratic organisation has led to the banning of all abortions, including therapeutic abortions in Nicaragua. The Unabated rise of the right in Poland has put the issue of private morality back on the political stage, wherin members of the LPR, Samoobrona and PiC are agigtating and have forced a debate for constitutional change to article 38 of the Polish Constitution where abortion will be banned , even in cases of Rape and Incest. Chancellor Merckel of Germany assumes the presidency of the EU in January 2007 and her stated aim is to lobby for the inclusion of God at the heart of the EU constitution, she has been discussing the definition of God with Pope Benedict in recent months.

http://www.indymedia.ie/article/79311

The words of Sister Mary Theresa Kane in Washington D.C (1979)

"We beg you to listen with compassion and to hear the call of women, who comprise half
of mankind. As women , we have heard the the powerful messages of Our church addressing
the need and dignity of all persons. As women , we have pondered upon those words.
Our contemplation leads us to state that the church in its call for reverence and dignity
must respond by providing the possibilty of women as persons being included in all
ministries in the church"

The plea went ignored. There has been no dialogue with women on the issue of
the ministry within the Roman Catholic Church.

It is not alone the refusal to acknowledge the contribution of women to the church but the
view of woman as help-meet to the man, which has led to oppression and abuse. The
interference in reproductive rights and the politcal development of nations extends the
private morality of the church deeply into the politcal sphere and deepens alienation on
a massive scale. Churchmen who have addressed the issue of poverty with enormous
compassion and realism, including Leonard Boff in Brazil have been silenced because
his drive for equality was interpreted as socialist, thus anathema to the centralised
control of the Roman Catholic Church. 'Instructive Morality' which does not admit of the
opinion of woman either as an equal partner in the church, or as a human being with
unique individuality has led to massive alienation, contributing to cycles of oppression
and abuse within the Church. The Nicaragua decision, which The RC church lobbied for
denies therapeutic abortion in the case of rape or incest. The interference in legislation
in this instance adds to oppression of women- wherein of the 24 Legal abortions carried
out in last three years, one was on a nine year old girl who was a victim of rape.
Criminalisation of women and children for seeking abortion in a society where private
questionaires on women's issues cite rape and domestic abuse as major problems
is a refusal to recognise and accept that these issues even exist.

The two problems facing the Roman Catholic Church in this century are that refusal to
dialogue equally with women in creating a theology of belief which recognises woman
as part of the human race :and the democratisation of the Church, which includes
the removal of the hierarchical nexus of control, so that each church community can
face issues of what are essentially part of the sphere of private morality and not
legislative control issues.

48 hours after regretting the Ferns Abuse Scandal, without accepting repsonsibility
for it or apologising to the victims of Child Sexual abuse in this country, there is an
announcement that an invitation has been issued for Pope Benedict to visit this
country. The rights of the child and those of women are blithely ignored in what will
be a political visit to Northern Ireland, it will, it is hoped copperfasten the peace achieved
in NI, a celebratation of what unity can achieve in a globalised culture. The alienation
of women is a matter unattended to in the light of refusal to dialogue on issues
specific to women in both the theological sphere of influence and the private moral
choices that we make in the absence of that dialogue.

save preference

Comments (14 of 14)

Countmeow

by Papers

Thu Aug 20, 2009 10:07

I see in todays Irish Times that over 2000 people hace indicated their wish to defect from the RC Church through the countmeout
website mentioned above. Wonder if countmeout are making money from this? Not that I'm bothered really as I havent looked at the site.

Two fingers

by Carmel Diviney

Wed Aug 19, 2009 17:56

Maybe a two fingered salute suits you but I didnt feel the need to be that way. I did however feel the need to be officailly emancipated and understand why others would feel that strongly too. Two fingers dont quite cut it when something is significant legaly as well as, and more importantly to me, being a binding religious ritual. You may not fully understand the implications of that but it dosnt matter- each to their own.

Stranger Yet.

by Agnostic.

Wed Aug 19, 2009 16:23

"Got it in writing - never more to be associated with the Catholic Church."

How strange.

A bit like "having it in writing" that you are not insane.

What was wrong with just giving them A Two Fingered Salute?
.

What's the problem?

Wed Aug 19, 2009 10:58

Who is having difficulty defecting? I did it years ago and had no problem with the process at all. I left because of many of the reasons stated above and because I hadnt been a practising RC for decades. I follow a different path which suits me better. All I had to do was write to the ArchBishop, an appointment was made for me to meet his representative at Archbishop House in Drumcondra and after an interview with him explaining my reasons etc I sent in my Baptismal Certificate to be voided and within 2 weeks I had defected. Got it in writing - never more to be associated with the Catholic Church. Simple as that. I was treated with the utmost respect at ArchBishop House. He did try to win me back by telling me I could never get married in the RC Church though- amusing to one who has no intention of ever getting married anyway :) Another pointer is to have your funeral arrangements made and your intentions made clear to your famillies as he also tried to point out that the funeral rite is for them to aid in their grieving process. Good luck.

Just Leave.

by Atheist.

Wed Aug 19, 2009 08:28

"It is no longer acceptable to me as an Irish
woman baptised in the Faith of the Roman Catholic Church (admittedly a second generation convert) to be a member of a centralised control nexus which fails to recognise my individuality as a member of the human race."

They never excommunicated me either.

Just leave the circus if you don't like the clowns.

How to defect from the Catholic Church

by An ex Catholic - Freedom from Church Control

Wed Aug 19, 2009 02:19

Check out this link if you want to defect and leave the Catholic Church

http://www.countmeout.ie

Declaration of defection from the Roman Catholic Church

by uinsin42

Wed Aug 19, 2009 01:28

Why is the Roman Catholic Church so arrogant in dealing with or ignoring those who wish to defect?

Uinsin O'Riabhaigh

COPCA Link and Info.

by Loophole

Sun Jul 15, 2007 20:35

Tomorrow , the report compiled by COPCA under the leadership of Eileen Shearer will
be released. It contains 70 recommendations to the RC church on dealing with the
issue of child sexual abuse in England and Wales.

Ms Shearer resigned 24 hours before it's release.

COPCA was instigated by cardinal Murphy O Connor in the wake of the Michael Hill
abuse case in 2000 and its reports were accepted by The Conference of Religious
in 2002.

The links section contain all documentation projects from 2000 to date in pdf
format. The press release on Ms Shearer's resignation is in Today's Observor.

http://www.copca.org.uk

The report and recommendations will be available at the site link.

Eileen Shearer Resigned 24 hours before release of COPCA report

COPCA

by loophole

Sun Jul 15, 2007 17:08

In the light of the assertion of a Pre-Vatican II spirtuality by Pope Benedict the XVI and the
recent edict to refuse fund-raising to Amnesty with regard to the education of women
in relation to abortion rights, the latest news from the RC church is that Eileen Shearer,
the head of COPCA has resigned on the eve of a report on the Church's ability to
deal with victims of child sexual abuse. the report contains 70 recommendations.
Her resignation statement is in the Observor Newspaper.

'Catholic Church's Anti-Abuse chief quits on Eve of Scathing Report' by Jamie Doward.
(Apologies I do not have the link).

COPCA:- Catholic Office for the Protection of Children and Vulnerable Adults in
England and Wales. She, Miss Shearer had an immense struggle.

Of course recognition of child abuse as a crime and not an aberration, as it is viewed
by canonical law would help alleiviate the struggle and suffering of the many victims
of Church Abuse.
The RC church in the meantime seems to value the elite in terms of Mass and the
pre-Vatican II return to the Latin Mass and the culture of de-hellenisation continues
apace.

The COPCA Report will be Published tomorrow.

Link;-

Fri Mar 02, 2007 19:44

http://home.eircom.net/content/irelandcom/breaking/9957...omnet

Link:-

by C Murray

Fri Mar 02, 2007 19:30

Information on Crimen Sollicitationis:-

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/panorama/5389684.stm

or
http://www.paddydoyle.com

[Sex Crimes and the Vatican]

Apparently there is a loophole in the Criminal Justice (sexual Offences bill) 2006.
along with section 5 (being unconstitutional- this is backround material)

Women ..Go

by catherine sara

Sat Dec 23, 2006 23:03

universalchild27 at hotmail dot co dot uk

I excommunicated myself many years ago now.
One day my daughter 8 asked a room full of women...
"why are you paying men in dresses to talk to God when you can all do it yourselves for FREE.
I would like to know why women bother to give the Pope and priests this power over them as in birth control, abortion tec.That is a womans business and what would the Pope or any celebite person know about it.
The Pope is never going to get pregnant is he.???
Men and women give them power when they bother with them.I just find it difficult to think that they still accept being repressed and seem to think that they are still slaves to the church.

He is not now coming

Sun Oct 29, 2006 12:01

Catholicism is a politcal religion which has the moral governance of one billion souls. It is
therefore not enough for me as a person to ignore the wrongs of the church, as many do, and
create a way around the issue of it's dominace in many societies.

I am not denying the hurt the church has caused to men. Indeed I personally know
men who have suffered at the hands of the church and have written about it.

The interefernce of the church in emergent democracies in the twentith century- right down
to legislative interferences in the creation of constitutions which mitigate against women
is something that has not been studied to an acceptable level and is skirted over.

The decision of the Catholic church to lobby for a pro-life stance in the month before the
Nicaraguan election which makes currency of women's bodies is unforgiveable.
The legislatures of poverty-stricken economies are necessarily male- dominated.

The use of a Catholic pro-life ethos In Poland to further erode the reproductive rights
of women and young girls is appalling. It indicates that again women's bodies are
a vehicle for population control.

The fact is that the church has shown itself to be a force which is politcal , not a
moral force for positive change- witness Benedict's speech about Muslimism which
put him on the tight-rope. In that context, I am seeking a separation from the church.

It is not enough for me to have simply rejected the tenets of the faith and to have moved
away from the church but to delineate my protest against the church's overt interference
in a manner which is complete and absolute.

The other political interferences are the overt support of the Church for the Franco regime.
It's celebration of the overthrow of Allende. It's refusal to condemn the CIA takeover
of Guatemala. In it's perceived hatred of communist totalitarianism, it has aided
consciously or not the expansion of the totalitarian US State and advanced the
capitalist imperative in western society. It has contributed to the growth of that
specific brand of totalitarianism by influencing the moral and political direction
of emergent democracies.

O , I forgot the Pinochet regime.

Pope Benedict is not coming to Ireland and for that I am glad. He has not apolgised for
the hurt he has caused to the victims of Child sex abuse or the women who ended up in
the laundries separated from their children because of the morality of sin conferred
on the birthing process by advocates of the RC religion.

In the 30's and 40's- excommunication was simple enough- you joined the IRB.
Today it seems more difficult to separate yourself morally from the overt politicisation
of that church.Let the church have the moral guidance of people who choose it- I have
never argued with that, but I reject utterly its overt and nasty interference in the business
of political development. It's refusal to dialogue with women of faith and it's refusal to
apologise to the millions of people who have been victimised by its moral authority.

Religion, Politics, Gender and Truth

by rojos

Sat Oct 28, 2006 23:48

The Politics of Abortion

The RCC has never claimed to be a democracy. If its actionsor inactions are no longer acceptable, one might reasonably ask "at what point did they become unacceptable?".

Alienation from any institution may be understandable, but when an individual has the freedom of conscience and ability to be able to leave that organization, why should they be so troubled?

Answer: if that organization has tangiable influences on institutions from which an individual cannot escape - e.g., the state. In such cases, a critique of the state would be more pertinent - especially it's centralised decision-making, hierarchy, pretend democracy, and even majoritarianism.

c. murray writes: The Church has shown itself to be a politcal animal which interferes in the rights of people and governments by foisting a jaundicied and anti-woman
stance on the politics of nations.

It is difficult for religious people to separate their conscience from 'God's Will' as they see it, and that inevitably ties decisions made by leaders or referenda into religious affiliations, but it can be difficult to draw a line between learnt principles, direct influence of the church, and individual attitudes.

Where points of view are heard according to merit, and not with prejudicial baggage re religious affiliation, only then can we hope to disentangle religious influence from politics to a greater extent: that is of course, apart from hoping that religion will just go away - which it probably won't.

For example, I'm an aetheist who disagrees with both abortion on demand, and abortion as an industry. I have seen the deliterious effects abortion has had on someone close to me, and yet, pushing it underground risks higher mortaility rates for women wishing to have abortions.

It's impossible to negate the influence of the RCC on women's issues in Ireland, but it's not good enough to say that anti-abortion ideas are wrong because they're associated with the RCC.

The Gender Issue

c. murray writes:
The successive dictats of the Roman Catholic church which have driven the politics of Ireland for too long, have oppressed generations of women by foisting on us a morality which fails to honour our dignity as people.

RCC influence on the Irish state today, looks to be over-stated here, but it is with issues of gender that I take most issue with here.

One might be surprised at the number of women still in the RCC, especially given the educational revolution of the past 40 years in Ireland, but to depict the Church as purely patriarchal is to diminish the poewr and role of women themselves in perpetuating the RCC.

In Tom Inglis' book, The Moral Monopoly (UCD, 1987), a picture is painted of apatheticfathers going off drinking or working, while mothers were responsible for the moral upbringing of the children from mC19 to l20 Ireland.

He concludes that the Devotional Revolution (re-introduction of the importance of St. Mary) of the 1850s was a means by which the (male) RCC hierarchy could best encourage women to incline their sons in particular towards the priesthood, and perhaps, their daughters to convents.

There are many still alive today who can remember kneeling by the fire while their mother made the family do the Rosary before they went to bed (e.g., as in Frank McCourt's Angela's Ashes. If these mothers were ignorant conduits, so were their sons and daughters.

The violence meted out to girls by women in the Magdalene Laundries, or by men to boys in industrial schools is far deeper than any simplistic gender analysis can measure. I would contend that such issues go beyond the RCC in Ireland and are the immitative reactions to a Victorian morality by a repressed people.

c. murray wrote: Criminalisation of women and children for seeking abortion in a society where private questionaires on women's issues cite rape and domestic abuse as major problems
is a refusal to recognise and accept that these issues even exist.

!. Men are criminalised by anti-abortion legislation, since most doctors who perform the operations, are men.

2. Recent Survey carried out by Gillian Paul of TCD, released on September 12th 2006, finds that men are equally if not more likely to suffer domestic violence from women than vise vers, but that women tend to come off worse because of physical strength differentials.

from European Journal of Medical Practice
http://taylorandfrancis.metapress.com/(gw5tnk453iwxztehv5cknb55)/app/home/contribution.asp?referrer=parent&backto=issue,5,14;journal,3,4;linkingpublicationresults,1:120163,1

Men don't get much help or sympathy.
http://www.amen.ie/Papers/15289.htm

Domestic violence is an issue for all victims and perpetrators, not to be used as ammunition in a gendered agenda.

Same goes for the victims of abuse in the Ferns diocese - many if not most of whom were male. Of course, One in Four is transgender, set up by a man (Colm O'Gorman), but that mightn't fit you're genderist approach.

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What Must you do to be Excommunicated?

Comments (14 of 14)