British Police - Republican Policemen?

by Sean Brady Tue Dec 19, 2006 10:37

I wrote the article attached to this piece for muscaill magazine at the request of the editor. I'm glad to see that Ógra have used it as a discussion piece. I am a bit annoyed to see some pettiness, individualising, felon setting and cheap point scoring in this discussion forum. The article is a stand alone, opinion piece from myself and should only serve as a piece of mature discussion material on the major issue of the day, i.e. republicans and policing. I'm writing this to qualify my artcile and to distance myself from the personalised nonsense that seems to be following it up. My views on policing are obvious from my article. I am not trying to be divisive, insulting or destructive and resent the allegations that i am. I do however recognise the divisive nature of the policing question and gave ample forethought to my article accordingly. In the end i believe that it was correct to write the article and that muscaill were right to publish it and furthermore that the views expressed therein are legitimate. I would gladly listen to any counter arguement and give it the courtesy both of objectivity and reading it on its own merits. I will not be drawn into an attack game on any republican or republican organisation. I still believe that policing endorsement, in the context of the current phase of negotiations, cannot deliver for republicans and that it will be, at best, irrelevant in terms of tackling crime. I believe that republicans who feel likewise should make their views known in a comradely constructive manner and have the courage to stand by them. It was not my intention that my article would appear as a discussion piece anywhere other than in muscaill magazine but, as it has, i feel it only fair that i comment. Make up your own minds.

by Barry - 32 CSM Sat Dec 16, 2006 05:43

"If the PD's came out with a policy of summary execution of people suspected of drug dealing you can bet I would be marching against it. "

Right now theres a report before the cabinet of Leinster House which states the British crown forces , military and police , had a policy of summarily executing innocent civilians both sides of the border on the suspicion they were Irish , using everything from knives and guns to no warning car bombs in quite indiscriminate and murderous attacks on the general populace . Hopefully we will soon see details on Indymedia of your planned protest march on this matter , or perhaps your intent to march against the Gardaí and governemnt figures colluding with British terrorists and their state killings and their current criminal activity of hiding the files . As Minister for Justice the recent post Barron report disappearance of all the files from McDowells justice department , Garda HQ , Castleblaney , Dundalk and Monaghan Town garda stations come right back to the PDs door . These files have all walked under Mickey McDowells watch . Please let us know when you intend to march against this illegal activity , collusion in the mass murder of your fellow Irish citizens both sides of the border , highly illegal terrorist activity the PDs have direct ministerial responsibility for . Or perhaps you may be too afraid to get on the wrong side of the gardaí on such a politically sensitive matter - virtually everyone else seems terrified of this deeply corrupt force which seems to be controlled from Whuitehall and Vauxhall bridge HQ in London rather than by any Irish body . The PSNI will most certainly be under the direct control of British military intelligence , the same British intelligence which sponsored about 1000 state killings both sides of the border and which seems to control the Gardaí special branch . Rather helpfully our southern politicians put them virtually in charge of C3 at Baldonnel in 1974 a few months after they bombed Dublin and Monaghan .
In the meantime Irish republicans will continue to reject all wings of the British occupation forces in this country .Anyone supporting the British occupation forces in this country is by simple definition a British collaborator and not an Irish republican . Anyone joining the PSNI is by definition a member of the British occupation forces in Ireland .

by Dubliner Fri Dec 15, 2006 20:47

I'm a Republican and although I have nothing but respect of the leadership of SF.
If they go along with this and join the RUC/PSNI then I will walk away and join someone else.
I dont care what they say about leading us to the Republic,I wont go for this.
In my book anyone who stays with SF after they join the RUC are not Republicans

by Ciarán Ó Suillebháin Fri Dec 15, 2006 18:58

So Republicans will be asked by Gerry and Martin to join a British police force, to help uphold British Law over Irish people, and help to enforce British justice, and maintain the British statelet on Irish soil.

Our dead must be spinning in their graves. For what died the sons of Róisín? Was it British policing?

by Kieran O'Sullivan - None Fri Dec 15, 2006 17:52

I am always interested in the term Monoplay on violence. The state has a monoploy on violence by virtue of its structures and in the context of the war in Iraq this is appaling. However in the context of policing in NI it is perfectly acceptable to have a single group which is recognised by everyone as having the authority to act in defense of the community. The PSNI/RUC is far from that organisation however what accountability has there ever been to the community by any of the non state actors who have carried out some prity reactionary attacks to impose order.

Their treatment of drug addicts and petty thieves is an example. If the PD's came out with a policy of summary execution of people suspected of drug dealing you can bet I would be marching against it.

The PSNI/RUC has at least some accountability to the community and while they are far from perfect it is far prefferable to have some accountability than none.

Put very simply which would you rather get caught smoking hash by your local PSNI/RUC officer or your local rupublican?

What is the alternitave to SF strategy. Lets hear it!

by provo implosion Wed Dec 13, 2006 19:43

By Seosamh Mac An Ultaigh, Tyrone

I WRITE this letter with deep sadness and great anger.

Sad that many honourable republicans are being hoodwinked and cajoled into accepting a British agenda by a leadership who are using the loyalty that the grass roots have shown throughout the years of struggle and suffering.

Anger at a leadership expert at total in-house control with no room for criticism or another point of view.

I am not a dissident (I count myself mainstream) but I am a free thinker and speak as I see it.

Myself and another 12 ex-prisoners, internees, blanket men where I live have never been asked our thoughts on the policing issue. Why?

So much for the in-depth discussions the movement is supposed to have with all the republican family – not just members of Sinn Fein.

We are bombarded with clichés like “You have to see the bigger picture” as if we are incapable of having a constructive or alternative view to that of the leadership.

The leadership vowed there would never be a ‘rusty bullet’ handed over to the British.

What did they get in return for ecommissioning?

Nothing – Paisley just moved on to his next demand – policing.

So after the surrender of all its arms the leadership is asking republicans to take up arms again but this time in a six-county police force.

A force involved in the slaughter of republicans in particular in Armagh and Tyrone.

A force under investigation for 75 killings.

A force whose members by their own admission used child informers.

A force that batoned us at the funerals of our republican dead.

A force that brutalised us in its interrogation centres – including some of the dead hungerstrikers who were forced to implicate themselves under torture.

It is ironic that 25 years after beating Thatcher’s criminalisation policy – with 10 of the bravest dead on hunger strike – republicans are going to criminalise themselves by joining and supporting such a tainted force?

As an ex-prisoner who spent years on the blanket, all of this is deeply hurtful and nearly beyond belief. The six-county police force is obligated under British law to uphold and enforce (under arms) the constitutional position and that, of course, is partition.

If Sinn Fein supports or joins the six-county police force, a vote for Sinn Fein will then be a vote for maintaining partition.

It’s as serious as that.

All republicans should keep that firmly in mind at election time.

by Sartre Wed Dec 13, 2006 00:55

Id like to know exactly why the poster "Red Wedge" has a problem with Indymedia linking to 32 CSM ? Does he believe there should be a wedge between Indymedia and this organisations site for some reason ? Obviously theres an insinuation in the post , however it seems non specified insinuation rather than any substance is this posters way of..well..insinuating something . Why on earth is there a problem with that particular organisation being linked to ?

by Shauna - Ógra Shinn Féin Tue Dec 12, 2006 18:40

Editor's Note: Editorial comment edited out
.

Now: my thoughts on this,

Paisley is, yet again, trying to play word games with the process. He has said that Sinn Féin must humble itself by endorsing the RUC/PSNI

This sounds a lot like his "sackcloth and ashes" speech of the recent past. That speech didn't work and neither will this.

He is trying to create division with Republicanism as his own party is split in more places than a Terry's choclate orange. The prospect of Republicans in government with the DUP is enough to give your average DUP voter a coronary embolism.

The DUP is scared that Sinn Féin will call their bluff and show them up for what they are, sectarian bigots!

This is a time for Republicans to stand as one and take those tough decisions together. The policing issue is quite simple, it hasn't went far enough yet.

The party has already said that unless there is significant movement from the Brits there will be no special Ard Fheis called. Even when one is called it is up to the Sinn Féin membership to decide what is acceptable.

Given all that Sinn Féin members and Republicans in general should have nothing to worry about.

It is the DUP who are on the ropes, let's keep them there!

by PS Mon Dec 11, 2006 21:49

Too true, Sinn Feign are like pathetic teacher's pets trying to please the Master.

"Did you know big laud that the United Irishmen were Presbyterians?" I nearly threw up my dinner.

by Who? Mon Dec 11, 2006 20:56

I'm afraid that it is too late for Sinn Fein, they've gone too far and now find themselves being sucked more and more into the quick sands of Unionist bigotry with only the DUP able to help them by throwing them the lifeline of participation in a Paisley-led Government. However the over eager Shinners have left themselves with no more bargaining chips and the DUP are now content to sit back and watch them sink, while enjoying every moment of their victory.

Personally I couldn't give a damn!

by John Meehan Mon Dec 11, 2006 19:51

The Democratic Unionist Party's far-right fundamentailst politics are apparent ffrom the following stories :

http://www.nuzhound.com/articles/Sunday_Tribune/arts200...n.php

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/616...3.stm

Congratulations to the youth wing of the SDLP for staging a protest outside Stormont.

When will the penny drop?

It's not too late for Sinn Féin, and even (James Joyce help us!) the SDLP and the Alliance Party, to honestly admit coalition government with the DUP is a backward step (into the pre-enlightenment middle ages) too far.

Mercifully bring the Stormont Parliament experiment to a humane end - a nice Christmas and New year present for us all.

by Pól Mac Mon Dec 11, 2006 19:30

i have no time for the 'new' sinn fein political position in being all too willing to accept the captialist political system, and an even considering an imperialist police force. but Ogra are genuine in their opposition and true republicanism. and they have expressed this in the party, not that they'd be listened too but. il give them that

by M Lac Mon Dec 11, 2006 16:47

Too little, too late from OSF. Their leaders have already decided to embrace British colonialism and policing, so it doesn't matter to them what OSF says now.

As for the threats against Gerry and Co. I think everyone knows at this stage that it is bull; made up in order to paint any republican that doesn't embrace the SF 'vision' as a crazy, bloodthirsty dissident.

by Frank Mon Dec 11, 2006 01:32

What dreadful things are the British Empire linked to?

Anyhow the problem OSF faces is quite simple; policing is a symptom of what PSF has politicaly accepted. Does OSF now realise that they must be opposed to the cause in order to proffer a proper rejection of policing or have they realised that in signing up to the GFA their options regarding this matter are severely curtailed?

by John Meehan Sun Dec 10, 2006 23:16

It's good that Ógra Sinn Féin raises the policing issue.

There is a left alternative to the Good Friday Agreement :

See the links below :

http://www.dsp.org.au/links/back/issue13/McAliskey.htm

http://www.indymedia.ie/article/52280

http://www.indymedia.ie/article/80013&comment_limit=0&c...78789

We need to be clear the war is over, and oppose coalition with far right wing fundamentalist organisations such as the Democratic Unionist Party.

it is worthwhile taking a look at the scary Ian Paisley website to see the political character of the individual Gerry Adams has proposed be the next First Minister of Northern Ireland :

http://www.ianpaisley.org/main.asp

Readers with a sense of humour are specially recommended to read the bizarre article on "Seat Nº166" in the European Parliament.

On a more serious note, the following Sunday Times article indicates the practical problems that will arise if the DUP is given partial state power at Stormont :

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/printFriendly/0,,1-1507-24....html

Liam Clarke attacks "Vile Unionist Homophobia" - and he is dead right.

by Meaghner Hobson Sat Dec 09, 2006 21:21

Why is their a link to the website of the 32 County Sovereignty Movement on indymedia.?

Because the story is about a looming shift in policy by the major republican organisation and it's not unlikely that people interested in that would be interested in what other republicans thought. The 32 CSM, like all republican organisations, aren't exactly the mainstream media's number #1 love, so it's doubley useful for an alternative news website to enable such views to be accessed.

Indymedia itself doesn't have a view on the brilliance or otherwise 32CSM or any other political organisation.

by Red Wedge Sat Dec 09, 2006 15:08

Why is their a link to the website of the 32 County Sovereignty Movement on indymedia.?

by Indy observer Sat Dec 09, 2006 02:55

It may be a difficult issue but at least the PSNI know what the meaning of the word accountability is.... They use more restraint towards protesters than the Gardai ever do. If that was a Garda car they were standing beside, guaranteed they would think of something to have you up the courts for an unlawful protest!

Compare that to the way the Gardai acted in mayday 2002, in Rossport ..... The Gardai are still the most ill-trained, un-proffesional Police force in Europe. They are allowed to brutalise peaceful protesters, they can approach you even if you're walking on the Street (minding your own business) and interrogate you in an authoritarian manner. Whats more, they can get away with this. To sum it up, they are a Police force comprising of many rogue members who only know of the baton and the fist- these members need to be thrown out of the force to ensure public confidence increases.

Also, their new complaints system is a whitewash. Superintendents are allowed handle the complaints system- so much for the Independent body... In Britain, there is a commission set up called the 'independent Police Complaints Commission' which fully examines complaints about police mis-conduct and works independently of the Police force. We need the same in this country. If the Gardai are that confident that they are a fully accountable, non-bureaucratic, non-authoritarian Police force then what have they to fear from the setting up of an independent complaints commission?

by webwatcher Fri Dec 08, 2006 00:12

It's quite an interesting experience paging throught the various websites for which links are provided above. They are all pretty poor, but you can have fun deciding which one is the worst. Sinn Fein's has an ad for fundraiser that was on last Sunday, the RSF one has pictures of what looks like an old folks Christmas party, but the Fourthwrite one has:

Fourthwrite

the magazine compaining for an

Irish Democratic Socialist Republic

emblazoned across the top.

by B Mac Thu Dec 07, 2006 21:24

Sinn Fein are good at spreading rumours, like their most recent one about death threats against their leaders. In the end it turned out that the only attempt on their lives was by a Loyalist with arthritis.

Why should any right minded Republican try to kill Adams, McGuinness or any other of their lackeys when they are driving their own members with any common sense or idealism out by their repeated grovelling to Paisley in a desperate attempt to get into power at any cost.

We just have to sit back and enjoy the spectacle of Paisley degrading them at every turn.

The one thing that other Republicans can do is consider a united front to oppose the Shinners at every turn. OK we might not at this moment in time be strong enough electorally but that will take time and that time should begin tomorrow.

by Who? Thu Dec 07, 2006 20:34

These members of Ogra seem to have the conviction lacking in the Provisonal Sinn Fein leadership. I would say one thing however, watch your backs because the leadership has a way of dealing with those would dare question them, they will start a rumour campaign to blacken your names. This is one thing they have learnt from the Brits, the best way to silence a person is by destroying his character.

Many good and committed Republicans have been targeted in this way over the years, especially during the most recent Sell Out.

by p Thu Dec 07, 2006 20:27

A bit of cop on, you don't discuss matters like this publicly! Im not even a member of Ógra and i know that!

by Activist Thu Dec 07, 2006 18:50

I think this is a very constuctive argument Ógra have put up, (alot better than the IRSP - we won't touch anything til a Socialist Republic jargon) but it must be more than words on a page - community, revolutionary alternatives must be built now. That will strenghten any argument!

by Jonah Thu Dec 07, 2006 17:34

Good though the article is, it's merely restatement of Ógra's existing and long-standing position of opposition to going onto the Policing Boards. They've been opposed to it for longer than some of the groups linked by the poster have existed.

And fair play to them.

by ok Wed Dec 06, 2006 15:11

OSF needs to condemn not only the RUC/PSNI but also Sinn Fein for wanting nationalists and republicans to join the British Police to protect the British State!

Imagine if your photos (that you posted) if the RUC/PSNI arressting officer was a local Sinn Fein or PIRA member.

Keep up the indepent thinking and good luck with ARISE and dont forget that the police of Northern Ireland are an imperalist British force! and that there are more british troops in Ireland than in Iraq, and everyone here can agreed that the "war" in Iraq is an occupation.

here's a thought, will sinn fein announce that Iraqis should join the police in iraq to end the occupation there?????