Sinn Féin Vote for FF Candidates in Seanad Election

by Maurice Ross Sun Jul 01, 2007 18:26

Camillus Glynn: As Chairman of Midland Health Board in the 1990s Glynn supported the downgrading of Mullingar Hospital. As part of this downgrading plan by the Health Board an extention of the Hospital was left idle on purpose.

Mary White: She is a capitalist and in most well known for being the founder and owner of Lir Chocolates.

Labhras Ó Murchú: was prominant in music organisation Cohmaltas Ceoltóirí Éireann. But interestingly he does not play a musical instrument himself.

by SFwatch Sun Jul 01, 2007 20:10

This justy further shows how rotten SF are. By doing this they are guarenteeing that FF get a majority in the senate yet they claim to be an opposition party?!!

by HS Sun Jul 01, 2007 22:16

Lir chocolates are very nice. She gets my vote on that basis alone. Now can you find something useful or productive to do instead of bashing Sinn Féin?

Maybe start working on your own camapign for the seanad, and see if you get any support.

by EK Sun Jul 01, 2007 23:15

SF vote FF, who'd Labour vote for? Or the Greens?

Theres not much left, of the left- as just those in the Dail.

by Eamon Canty Mon Jul 02, 2007 11:16

This further exposes that SF are not much of an alternative. All through the election they were talking about baking Bertie Ahern in a coalition. In the North they are now implementing Water Rates. They are also cutting pay of Classroom assistants in the North.

Given the rotten nature of the Seanad only FF, FG and Labour are gaurenteed seats. Obviously Labour will back themselves in these elections and are set to win 5 seats on the Panels, an outside chance of a 6th. Maybe 2 more on the University seats (Bacik and Ryan). FF and FG also have their own candidates. If I was a Councillor from outside these parties I would abstain rather than vote for any 'lesser evil' OR I would look for a decent left-wing candidate to be nominated and I'd back them even if they would only get a handful of votes.

Sinn Féin have enough TDs to nominate their own candidates in each panel and then vote for them and not transfer. They did not do this. Sinn Féin instead of abstaining or spoiling their votes (which is what SP did last time I think) they are backing people that close hospitals! Sinn Féin are not a left-wing party. This Seanad vote is further proof.

by hs Mon Jul 02, 2007 12:02

"They are also cutting pay of Classroom assistants in the North." That's obviously going to be a Socialist party mantra from now on. Even though they know it's not true.

They'll be telling us that Mary White is giiving free chocolates to the Sinn Féin Cllrs and TD's soon.

It really is sad and pitiable the way they get people involved in these sectarian attacks on the other parties of the left. Meanwhile the right wing parties can do what they want.

by Eamon Canty Mon Jul 02, 2007 12:34

hs siad: "It really is sad and pitiable the way they get people involved in these sectarian attacks on the other parties of the left. Meanwhile the right wing parties can do what they want"

Left-wingers will criticise you for VOTING FOR FIANNA FAIL candidates! This is a fact. Sinn Féin elected reps are helping Bertie get a Seanad majority. FACT.

Did people voting for Sinn Féin in 2004 local elections want their elected reps to back Fianna Fáil in parliamentary elections? They did not. This is a betrayal of the Voters in the Local elections of 2004.

At least the Greens had a charade of a 'deal' before selling out. HS please can you or anyother SF supporter justify or defend this uncritical support for Fianna Fáil.

by Sfwatch Mon Jul 02, 2007 13:03

To be honest I am not surprised one bit about SF supporting FF in this election. SF are not a left wing pro worker party. They are a nationalist, pro market, pro capitalist party. We can see this in the North were they are implementing neo liberal cuts and policies that Blair or Thatcher would be proud of.

In the recent elections in the South SF continually aligned themselves to FF. Throughout the election they were virtually begging to go into coalition with them and constantly stating how 'good FF were for the peace process' etc.

SF are not in any way an alternative to the establishment parties, lets stop treating them as such.

by SFapologizer Mon Jul 02, 2007 13:31

mary white supported the columbia 3 when labour wouldn't

labrous o murochu opposes the OASA when labour supports it

cymalis glynn supports the justice for eddie fullerton campaign when labour barly achnoladge it.

SF don't owe labour anything

by Sfwatch Mon Jul 02, 2007 13:58

Hang on a second, so bloody what if they signed some petition?!

Lets have a brief look at the record of these FFers that will given a Senate majority by SF.

- All supported the FF/PD government that are ruthlessly persuing an agenda of privatising the health system and recently forced nurses into taking strike action.

- FF/PD have given massive tax breaks to business, taken autistic kids to court to deny them their rights, supported US troops in Shannon, facilitated the 'race to the bottom',

- FF in government have imprisoned people for opposing the bin tax, privatised Aer Lingus and supported the massive multinational Shell plunder and ride roughshod over the people of Mayo.... I could go on and on, all these policies were supported and will continue to be supported by Fianna Fáil senators.

Lets looks at the people SF are backing in particular

- Camillus Glynn supports the closure of the Mullingar hospital.

- Mary White is a capitalist, she owns a large business. Does she recognise unions? does she pay her workers well?

Fianna Fail senators fully support these right wing policies that have been implemented by the FF/PD government and they will continue to support the continuence of these policies for the next 5 years. This is what Sinn Féin are endorsing.

by SFapologizer Mon Jul 02, 2007 14:08

i'd say SF care must be why there voting for them.

are you saying labour would be any different. on co-location shell to sea etc a vote for labour is a vote for FG. At the very least the 3 above have some history of bucking the trend with in there parties there not perfect but there working on some issues of concern to SF when labour start doing that then and only then should SF concider voting for them. But untill that happens as i said SF owe labour nothing

by SFwatch Mon Jul 02, 2007 14:17

I'm not saying Labour are worth supporting either. Labour are just another establishment party, and you are right, a vote for them is a vote for FG or FF and all the right wing policies of those parties.

these senators are not 'bucking the trend', they signed a petition with one eye on the senate election. So what!

If SF were really an anti establishment party, they'd back no candidate from the establishment parties. If this meant abstention or voting for a candidate that had no hope, well so be it.

by sfapologizer Mon Jul 02, 2007 14:29

your adviseing SF to abstain. we did that for 60 years. they got on with out us and did there own thing.

and your probabley right they did a bit of running for SF to get there jobs back and if the the vote is as tight as your making out and it's that dependent on SF votes then maybe labour will do a bit more running the next time and so on and so on. unless the people go in to the GPO again then this is the system we have. standing on the ditch does nothing

by Eamon Canty Mon Jul 02, 2007 15:11

In this Seanad election the Government majority is in doubt due to the FF hammering in 2004 local election. By SF backing the FF candidates Bertie Ahern may well keep a Seanad majority. This is not some abstract eventuality. Without a majority in the Seanad unpopular Bills can be put to referendum. In the next 5 years there may be an extremely unpopular Bill proposed that FF/PD/GP want to push through. Without a Seanad majority the Government would be faced with a referendum (31 Senators and 56 TDs can initiate this). Sinn Féin are allowing Fianna Fáil off the hook over the next 5 years. They could bring in another tax amnesty and face only huffing and puffing from SF in the Dail while they get a clear run in Seanad (thanks to SF)

I think that SF should put forwad their own candidates OR spoil their votes. Labour and FG are also a joke not worth backing. The reality is that the Seanad is undemocratic. Not voting in it or only backing decent candidates is not standing on the ditch. Unless of course you only see electoral politics as the place for political action? I suspect SF do. you don't even understand SF's previous abstention policy. Abstention was carried though for 2 reasons (1. to form an irish Parliament in Ireland, 2. in opposition to partition). Not voting or only voting for decent candidates that may not have a chance of getting in is called keeping principles.

What we have here is SF selling out their voters and Bertie getting a majority. You did not even seek a deal with the government on this! At least the Greens asked for a price before selling out!!

SFapologizer said: "they got on with out us and did there own thing.". Sorry to break it to you but they will get on with their own thing anyway. To think that FF will somehow pay any serious attention to SF is a farce. The idea that Camillus Glynn, Mary White and Labhras Ó Murchú will be doing SF's bidding is a farce. All they did was talk nice to you, signed a few petitions and visited Colombia3. That must be SF's price now. At least Judas got 30 pieces of silver! They will continue to implement right-wing policies and continue backing the government on Shell, Shannon, Privatisation, Health, Education, etc.

by Killian Forde - Sinn Féin Mon Jul 02, 2007 15:11

Having just read Maurice stunning expose of SF voting intentions, which was news to me, and in particular the fact that Labhras Ó Murchú doesn't play an instrument, but mysteriously ""was prominant in music organisation Cohmaltas Ceoltóirí Éireann" I will have to reconsider my entire voting stratedgy.

Is this thread intended to be satire?

by Maurice Ross Mon Jul 02, 2007 15:26

Killian Forde has a vote in the Senate elections. Killian Forde will be voting for these candidates. Ok, the fact O Murchu can't play an instrument is an interesting tit-bit. Don't let it take away from the nub of the issue. YOU WILL BE BACKING FF CANDIDATES. This Seanad election the Government majority is in doubt due to the election of many many non-FF Councillors. Killian Forde took an FF seat in Donaghmede in 2004. Killian Forde's voters voted for him as a way to attack the Government not keep them in power in the National Parliament. Cllr. Forde will now throw his voters' intentions in the bin when he votes No. 1 Fianna Fail this month.

Grow some balls and spoil your vote.

by Maurice Ross Mon Jul 02, 2007 15:29

This news item was reported in the Irish Times on Friday 29 June 2007. Are you saying the Irish Times are making it up?

by HS Mon Jul 02, 2007 16:03

Killian,

Are you or are you not getting free chocolates from Mary White? Give us some, g'wan.

Can you even play an instrument yourself?

Do you think that the Irish Times sometimes makes up news items?

Are the poor classroom assistants in the north being sacrificed just so you can have free choccies? Shame!

by Killian Forde - Sinn Féin Mon Jul 02, 2007 16:18

Maurice you stated I have some questions to answer and then proceeded to make some statements on my intentions!

So go ahead and ask me questions if you really want some facts.

HS - yeah I got some chocs from Mary White, lovely :)

by Maurice Ross Mon Jul 02, 2007 16:27

1. Who will you give your No. 1 votes for in the Seanad elections? (all 5 panels please)

2. Who will you transfer to (if at all)?

You are an elected representative so don't pull the "secret ballot" excuse.

by Patrick Henry Mon Jul 02, 2007 17:30

After all we've seen $inn Fein do over these last couple of years are we really surprised that they would support FF?
My God, they've even gone as far as supporting the paramilitary police force implicated in countless murders of Republicans and ordinary Catholics just to play a bit part in the farce that is the 6 county Puppet Government.

It is also interesting to note that because of their decision to support the RUC / PSNI/ Loyalist handlers that they've been allowed to once again fund raise in America......30 Pieces of silver or what???
Still surprised about $inn Feign supporting FF......Wise up!

by SF APPOLOGIZER Mon Jul 02, 2007 20:54

the pinciple of abstentionism was dropped in 86 theres nothing new in it as you rightly said they get on with or with out us but the party decided that it would be better to add ourselfs to the mix that happen'd over 20 yrs ago, not wanting to be condosending to you but where do you see an advantage in any issue from a SF perspective in taking it back.

on do i see leinster house as the only venue for political activism. no i don't but a part of it on the outside is lobbying people inside who in turn lobby other people thats what happened with thoose 3. and you or someone else are right i would be in favour of selling the SF vote to the highest bidder so there's a few weeks left on this election if the labour party come out in favour of northern speaking rights in leinster hse i'd support selling it to them if FG trow in voting rights then i'd support dealing with them any takers, any takers!

by Killian Forde - Sinn Féin Tue Jul 03, 2007 12:57

Maurice to answer your questions.

1. Haven't made up my mind.

2. Haven't made up my mind.

I trust that helps.

Killian

by Maurice Ross Tue Jul 03, 2007 13:24

Cllr. Killian Forde:

1. Will you rule out any candidates and/or parties?

2. What are the main issues that will determine how you vote?

3. Is the likely Government minority an issue for you while you are considering your Seanad votes?

Fair play to Killian for actually engaging in a debate. Other SF, Green, SP and Independent Councillors should also.

by Dan Sullivan Thu Jul 05, 2007 15:34

At least, tell us you won't be voting No.1 for one of the FF candidates for the TCD panel.

by Maurice Ross Thu Jul 05, 2007 15:56

FF will not have to bother much about the University seats if they get SF votes.

In total FF/PD/Greens/pro-Gov-IndTD/SF have 486 voters.
In total FG/Labour/anti-Gov-IndTD/SP have 491 voters (although 4 SP Cllrs likely to spoil so it's 487)
There are 100 Independents (many of which are FF gene pool Councillors)

If SF did not back FF candidates then the balance would be 428 for the Government and 549 anti-Government. That would be a massive 121 voters behind - even if all Independent Councillors and Senators backen the Government they would loose. With SF votes FF will be able to comfortably hold onto a majority using the 11 Taoiseach's nominees.

by Plato Thu Jul 05, 2007 16:29

"Clarity
by Killian Forde - Sinn Féin Tue Jul 03, 2007 12:57
Maurice to answer your questions.

1. Haven't made up my mind.

2. Haven't made up my mind.

I trust that helps.

Killian "

Well done Killian, clear and straight answering-classic New Sinn Fein.

by SFAPOLOGIZER Thu Jul 05, 2007 19:49

what if SF vote for the noble principle of anybody but FF. whats to stop the people they vote in from doing there own deal with the government. If people want SF's votes make it worth there while

by sycik Thu Jul 05, 2007 20:15

No wouldn't think they are like the greens,
The next elections isnt too far away, and we already see whats happening in new government.

by sf apologizer Thu Jul 05, 2007 20:24

wouldn't think.......... hmm comparisions to the greens............. when you weigh it up like that you sound like a FOOL. pick an issue you know is important to SF. If you can gauruntee a referndum on say northern representation in leinster house etc otherwise your preaching to them and they've withstood more than a few nasty words on the internet or the irish times. if your prepared to do thaty then spit in your hand.

by Dub Fri Jul 06, 2007 11:54

I've been looking at this thread with interest. "SF apologizer" seems to be spinning the SF leadership line they are selling to their membership. The point that is being made by others is that SF are not even seeking a price. They are not in negotiations with FF but will still be voting for FF candidates. "SF Apologizer" is right to cast a cold eye on FG and Labour. But why not abstain from this election? To say that is a return to abstentionism is a misunderstanding of the abstentionist policy of 1917-86. That policy was about recognising the State and had nothing to do with tactically choosing to vote (or not vote) in an election. Personally I'd call on left-wingers to spoil their ballots. But if SF want to engage in 'lesser of 2 evilism" then they should hold thier noses and vote against the Government. If SF back FF candidates then it will be used against them on the doorsteps by their opponents in the next local elections.

by Maurice Ross Fri Jul 06, 2007 12:01

"what if SF vote for the noble principle of anybody but FF. whats to stop the people they vote in from doing there own deal with the government."

That would be their sell-out not yours.

by sfapologizer Fri Jul 06, 2007 18:30

no it's in your hands. do something for SF. playing the left card is childish concidering most of the left spend any time talking about SF talking about how they are not a part of the left.

if we spoil our ballots who gains, what dose it do for our objective. If nothing or nothing much then why should we do it. This is in your hands. we have no loyality to anyone. If you want us to vote or not to vote then show us what we gain.

on maurice's that will be there sell out. ahh great, a week with out getting blamed for something...... nah give us something we care about.

by Dub Sat Jul 07, 2007 20:33

no it's in your hands. do something for SF. playing the left card is childish concidering most of the left spend any time talking about SF talking about how they are not a part of the left.

So SF see left wing politics as just another card to play in the electoral game? And to be honest you know that the left don't spend most of their time criticising SF. I assume you don't classify SF as left-wing yourself?

if we spoil our ballots who gains, what dose it do for our objective. If nothing or nothing much then why should we do it.

If you vote for FF who gains?! Fianna Fáil do! If you spoil your votes then you keep to your principals. Indeed even if you gave critical support to non-FFers then it will be a blow to the Government wanting to pass their policies. A Govt minority in the Seanad could seriously test Greens during the next 5 years and may help in brining down the Government. Surely giving the government a lashing and ending it asap is an objective?

we have no loyality to anyone. If you want us to vote or not to vote then show us what we gain.

Surely you should have loyalty to your voters. The people that voted Sinn Féin in the 2004 elections and the recent general election did so as a vote Against the Government. Surely you should implement that an not vote for the Government candidates in the Seanad. I've already outlined above what you will gain by not voting for FF candidates.

on maurice's that will be there sell out. ahh great, a week with out getting blamed for something...... nah give us something we care about.

Do you not care about giving the Government a bruising in the Seanad elections? You say you want something from a Party before you vote for them. But you are not even in negotiations with Fianna Fáil and you'll be voting for them! As was said before. At least the Greens had the charade of a deal before giving FF their support.

by Yes Sat Jul 07, 2007 21:51

Surely, the Greens are a Yes party, run withn the Hare & hunt with the Hound They have not stood by the people of ireland who are poor (increase prices of plastic bags, ati woman no word about keeping the Mother at home with her children to form a bond and clear the gridlock in the mornings. Thats an environment isue too

by Dub Sat Jul 07, 2007 22:04

Small bit off topic. But while you raise it. What the hell are you saying about the role of women in society. You think the Greens should have "Mother at home with her children to form a bond and clear the gridlock in the mornings"

Go back to the 1950s you AH. Women in the workplaces is one of the most positive developments in the past 20 years. Women have a right to work and indeed it's good that people are not stuck against thier will in the home all day. You comments also expose your stereo-typical view of men. Do you not think men should look after children? Are men incapable of bonding with children? Aside from the Victorian attitude you are blaming Female workers for the traffic gridlock?! The Government are to blame not working people! The complete lack of proper investment in public transport and the privatisation agenda is to blame not people going to work!

Anyway, let's keep this on topic. And i'm not going to waste my time on a posting that may be taken down for being off topic!!

by women Sat Jul 07, 2007 23:56

mr dub, it was a safer society though do you agree?

by Dub Sun Jul 08, 2007 00:00

Notwithstanding the fact this is off topic

"mr dub, it was a safer society though do you agree?"

I do not agree. Rape, incest and abuse went on in 1950s Ireland. There was also massive emigration and unemplyment. Women were denied basic rights such as employment, access to education and contraception. There was political corruption and crime in the 1950s. There was never a golden age in Ireland despite what you would like to think.

I would like to discuss SF and Seanad election. Why not start a thread elsewhere?

by dub Sun Jul 08, 2007 00:32

fair point, wont take up your space here but rape crime etc. is very high now

by SFapologizer Sun Jul 08, 2007 15:59

no it's in your hands. do something for SF. playing the left card is childish concidering most of the left spend any time talking about SF talking about how they are not a part of the left.

So SF see left wing politics as just another card to play in the electoral game? And to be honest you know that the left don't spend most of their time criticising SF. I assume you don't classify SF as left-wing yourself?
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RESPONCE:
most of there time when talking about SF. As opposed to most of there time. The first may make up a small fraction of the second but in that context i think my point is still correct.

In broad terms yes i would condider it a part of the left but i get bord dwelling on it as a consequence of the huge fractering on the left with each faction expecting everyone elce to live up to there own standards, conversations tend to get tedious fast.

ENDS:
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if we spoil our ballots who gains, what dose it do for our objective. If nothing or nothing much then why should we do it.

If you vote for FF who gains?! Fianna Fáil do! If you spoil your votes then you keep to your principals. Indeed even if you gave critical support to non-FFers then it will be a blow to the Government wanting to pass their policies. A Govt minority in the Seanad could seriously test Greens during the next 5 years and may help in brining down the Government. Surely giving the government a lashing and ending it asap is an objective
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RESPONCE
as i said futher up the page the 3 FF mentioned have a history of lobbying on issues of concern to SF. I accept that it is most likely not on principle and more to do with self preservation but it is still more than anyone elce has done or proposes to do.

prove that it's a government minority. that the people SF vote in or get in as a consequence of SF not voting don't have there own issues that they can do a deal with the government with.
ENDS
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we have no loyality to anyone. If you want us to vote or not to vote then show us what we gain.

Surely you should have loyalty to your voters. The people that voted Sinn Féin in the 2004 elections and the recent general election did so as a vote Against the Government. Surely you should implement that an not vote for the Government candidates in the Seanad. I've already outlined above what you will gain by not voting for FF candidates.
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RESPONCE
ahh now in all fairness the SF voters that didn't vote for us probabley did it on the basis of being anti government. we were quie clear we where prepared to go into any coalition. As where the greens.
ENDS
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on maurice's that will be there sell out. ahh great, a week with out getting blamed for something...... nah give us something we care about.

Do you not care about giving the Government a bruising in the Seanad elections? You say you want something from a Party before you vote for them. But you are not even in negotiations with Fianna Fáil and you'll be voting for them! As was said before. At least the Greens had the charade of a deal before giving FF their support.
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RESPONCE
you pointed out how in broad terms how you think it would be good from your prespective, but in the context that SF as a movement assembled to reach an objective, you offer'd us nothing to assist us in reaching that objective
ENDS

by SFwatch Sun Jul 08, 2007 18:58

This issue is very clear. Because FF got such a bad result in the local elections as things stand the government will not get a majority in the Seanad. This is fact, you can see the fugure earlier on the thread.

A government without a Senate majority would have some very practical difficulties.

- they could not rush contentious emergency legislation through.
and
- they could be forced by the senate to hold a referendum or force an election on an unpopular issue.

These two things could be used against an unpopular government to really cause them trouble and potentially bring them down more easily.

If SF are an opposition they would at least abstain but instead they are votign FF and ensuring a strenghtened government. How can they seriously go to people now that will move into opposition to the government and seriously claim to be against FF?

by Junior Cert Maths Sun Jul 08, 2007 19:38

SFApologizer says: "prove that it's a government minority"

Here is the proof.

There are 60 seats in the Seanad.
a. 11 nominated by Taoiseach
b. 6 elected by graduates of the 2 main Universities.
c. 43 elected on vocational panels by Cllrs, TDs & Sens.

a. Taoiseach nominations will all be pro-Government. There will be 2 PDs, 2 Greens, 6 FF. That's 11 pro-Government

b. The Universities are likely to return 4 independents and 2 Labour members. That's 6 not pro-Government.

c. The votes for the Panels are as follows:
FFers, PDs, Greens and pro-Gov Ind TDs: 486 votes
FG & Labour: 485 votes
Independents: 102 votes
SF: 52 votes
SP: 4 votes
WP: 1 vote

FF, PDs, Greens and 'deal' independent TDs make up 486, this is only 43%. which roughly translates into 18 seats pro-Government and 25 Anti-Government.

PROOF
Add it all up and you will have 29 Pro-Government & 31 Anti-Government. That is a majority against the Government.

Re-jig the figures and add SF support to FF candidates in the panels you will give pro-Government 31 seats and anti-Government 29 seats. That is a majority for the Government.

by AM Mon Jul 09, 2007 08:59

According to latest reports the deal with Labour is still on.

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/frontpage/2007/0709/11....html

I await the furious attempts to explain how this shows that SF are a right wing party, anyway.

by Maurice Ross Mon Jul 09, 2007 13:42

"I await the furious attempts to explain how this shows that SF are a right wing party, anyway"

It does not show they are a right-wing party if they do a deal that does not compromise programme or give advantage to political foes. Their policies and practices already show they are not left wing! And there is the question of SF transfers - will they give 2nds to FF? Unlike in Dáil elections these elections are by pure PRSTV where preferences are looked at. Any party with less than a Seanad quota should do deals if they can get a seat or seats. Why not? So long as party programme is not compromised I think it fair game. I remember DL and the PDs had a Seanad pact at one stage. They merely traded votes in the different panels and did not alter their policies. Even the Russian Bolsheviks had a similar approach in the undemocratic elections to the Tsarist Duma.

If the Labour-SF pact is done there will be Labour will win 6 seats on the panels and SF will win one (Pearse Doherty), and the Government would loose a majority.

by sfapologizer Mon Jul 09, 2007 13:53

sorry wrongly word'd sentace. i accept there is the potential for a gov minority in the senead thats what the whole tread was about. what i was trying to say was that if SF abstain or vote anybody but FF whats to stop the people who get elected as a result doing there own deal with the gov and removing the minority in the senead

by Obsessed with what SF do but won't join Mon Jul 09, 2007 16:19

Labour and SF discuss voting pact to elect senators

Stephen Collins, Political Editor

Sinn Féin and Labour are attempting to agree a voting pact in the Seanad elections that would give Sinn Féin its first ever seat in the Upper House of the Oireachtas.

The two parties have been in discussions about a deal that would see one of Sinn Féin's most promising politicians, Pearse Doherty, elected to the Seanad with the help of Labour votes.

In return, Sinn Féin councillors around the State would vote for Labour's Alex White to give the party an extra seat in the Upper House.

Labour has enough votes to deliver seats on four of the Seanad panels but it will need support from elsewhere to win a fifth.

Ballot papers will be sent out today to more than 1,000 public representatives whose votes will elect 43 of the 60 members of the Seanad.

Sources in both parties confirmed to The Irish Times yesterday that discussions on a voting pact were continuing.

Labour TD Joe Costello, who is the party's director of elections for the Seanad, said arrangements had not been finalised and he would not be able to say whether there was a deal until today at the earliest.

"We have been talking to Sinn Féin and we have been talking to other parties as well. Nothing is finalised," he said.

A Labour spokesman pointed out that there had always been horse-trading in Seanad elections and he added that there was no objection in principle to a deal with Sinn Féin.

A Sinn Féin source confirmed that contacts were continuing between the two parties: "My understanding is that a deal hasn't been agreed yet but we need to find 30 extra votes for Pearse from somewhere."

Mr Doherty is running on the 11-seat agriculture panel where he is guaranteed the 58 Sinn Féin councillors' votes but he will need about 30 further votes to be elected.

Labour, with 125 votes, should have 30 or so to spare on the same panel after electing their own senator.

By contrast, Labour is short about 30 votes for a seat on the cultural and educational panel but Sinn Féin support would guarantee the election of Mr White.

Parties have often traded votes in past Seanad elections. In 1992 the Progressive Democrats and the Workers' Party entered a voting pact that gave each party a senator.

In 1997 and 2002 the PDs voted for Fianna Fáil candidates and in return were given Seanad seats among the Taoiseach's 11 nominees.

There has already been controversy during this Seanad campaign over a pact between the Greens and Fianna Fáil struck during the negotiations on coalition.

Green councillors were informed that they would have to vote for specified Fianna Fáil candidates and that they would have their ballot papers inspected to ensure that they fulfilled the pledge.

A number of Green councillors expressed reservations about voting for specified Fianna Fáil candidates and said they would not allow their ballot papers to be inspected.

One of the issues for continuing discussion between Sinn Féin and Labour is how each side will guarantee to deliver the agreed number of votes.

by John Jefferies - The Workers' Party Tue Jul 10, 2007 13:56

Just to make it clear that the Workers' Party never did a deal with the PDs for Senate seats. Stephen Collins is mistaken, it was Democratic Left which did a vote-pooling deal in 1992 with the PDs.

by Curious Tue Jul 10, 2007 14:06

Well its good to have that cleared up about the 1992 elections.

However for the 1973, 1977, 1981, 1982(2), 1987 and 1989 Seanad elections I presume the WP voted for some candidates as they no longer believed in abstention. Please let us know who the WP voted for in those elections.

by Maurice Ross Tue Jul 10, 2007 15:29

If you are going to throw around the term "abstention" then why not use it correctly. Sinn Féin adopted abstention from Westminster so that an alternative assembly could be formed by Irish MPs. This was done in 1919. Anti-Treaty SF (and even FF until 1926) continued abstention as a protest against the partition of Ireland, ie they did not "recognise" the state but still ran in its elections. This continued over the years by SF up to the 1980s. Abstention was all about 2 things a. Establishing an alternative assembly (but they never had the numbers) and b. not recognising the state.

It had NOTHING to do with not voting or not running in elections. There is NOTHING in contradiction with traditional abstentionist policy and running in Senate elections, voting in Senate elections, and indeed geting elected to the Senate. It's just that SF never had the numbers. I don't think they'd any councillors in the South until 1999?. So could "curious" and "sfapologiser" please stop saying that all political forces without an abstentionist policy must back a "lesser of 2 evils".

SF voted in 2002 for FF candidates (they may still in 2007). This had nothing to do with not having abstentionist policies. Whoever told you this was spinning you a yarn. Maybe this is what SF leaders are telling the membership.

by Curious Tue Jul 10, 2007 15:41

I am not a SF member, supporter or apologiser. I am merely trying to establish how the WP voted in the elections I listed. Indeed I should also enquire as to how the WP voted in the 1992, 1997, 2002 Seanad elections and how will their Waterford councillors vote in the present election.

Given your hysterical response to my reasonable request it makes me wonder if you might be a WP apologist. It would explain a few things.

by Junior Cert Maths Tue Jul 10, 2007 15:51

The Workers' Party have 2 votes in the Seanad elections. They have 2 councillors on Waterford City Council - Davy Walsh and John Halligan.

by Junior Cert Maths Tue Jul 10, 2007 20:39

Sinn Féin have gained a new Councillor on the Cork City Council due to the death of an independent. Under the law party members are only ones eligible to be co-opted to a vacant seat on a Council. But under the law where there is an independent the person that can 'runner up' in the election gets the seat. In this case SF won a seat.

But I don't think Fiona Kerins will not be on the register for Seanad elections as that was compiled at end of June. Maybe someone can clarify that?

by Maurice Ross Sun Jul 15, 2007 15:55

The vote swap deal that was agreed by the directors of elections for both Parties, Aengus Ó Snodaigh and Joe Costello, has fallen apart due to opposition within the Labour Party. The Labour rank-and-file prefer transfers to Fine Gael.

Prominant Labour councillors such as Mary Freehill, a former Lord Mayor of Dublin, has opposed the deal and refused to give her second preference to Pearse Doherty in the Agricultural panel. Many more councillors for Labour have also refused to do this. These Councillors will instead by backing Fine Gael candidates in their lower preferences.

The vote swap deal was intended to be only on two panels. In the Agriculture Panel SF's Pearse Doherty was 30 votes short of the quota while Labour are 30 votes over the quota. In the Culture and Education panel Alex White of Labour is 30 votes under. The deal involved a SF voting for White while Labour would transfer to Doherty. This would maximise both parties' seats and would deprive the Government of seats.

Due to the pact falling apart the SF votes may now go to Fianna Fáil as originally planned. This will give the Government a majority on one in the Seanad. If SF follow through with support for Fianna Fáil candidates the Government will not have the difficulties in passing unpopular laws through the Seanad and they will not have to worry about referenda being called on legislation.

by sfapologizer Sun Jul 15, 2007 19:41

they all voted on thursday. it's done. if labour are going to break the deal then they,ve allready done it.

by False Name Mon Jul 16, 2007 11:11

This entire article is completely wrong Mr. Ross. Not only have you not admitted that you were wrong and made the whole thing up but you now attempt to try and invent more factually incorrect nonsense by saying the deal has fallen apart and SF will be voting for FF. Also you state that SF had originally planned to vote FF. This is a complete and utter lie. There are plenty of genuine criticisms that can be levelled against SF, instead you continue with a complete fabrication. The votes were cast last week Mr. Ross it's over and SF didn't vote FF so admit that you are wrong.

by Maurice Ross Mon Jul 16, 2007 12:48

All my sources are Newspapers (which had genuine SF quotes) and from SFers that I know. In yesterday's newspapers there was coverage of a significant number of Labour Councillors voting for FG No. 2, 3, 4 (and so on) on the Agriculture Panel. These Councillors include Mary Freehill, Dermot Lacey and current Galway Mayor Tom Costello. These aree all senior Councillors that hold or have held Mayoralties. They are reflecting a feeling among the Labour rank-and-file against the deal and in favour of FG transfers. However, as much voting has already taken place it will be interesting to see if this Labour 'revolt' will stop Doherty getting elected. As Doherty is 30 short he may still get a big chunk from Labour Councillors and from some independents. If it's the case that all SF Councillors voted last Thursday then Alex White will take a seat. Although it could have been argued he's have taken it with FG transfers and independents.

We'll see the extent of the Labour "revolt" by looking at the percentage of the surplus that will go to Doherty. Taking away any independent votes Labour may get, the transfer should be in high 90%s. Any lower represents a breaking of the deal.

by Matthew o'Reilly Tue Jul 24, 2007 12:46

It is clear that what was reported by BA is correct. Sinn Fein have backed up Fianna Fáil in transfers and with No1 votes in panels that were not effected by this SF-Labour pact. I had a look at the transfer patterns and it is fact, there is no way any SF supporters can credibly deny it. Unfortunatyely it will now mean the government are likely to keep their majority in the senate.