fascist attack in rome

by DR Sun Jul 08, 2007 20:20

Where they wearing any Fascist uniforms? How do you know they were Fascist? I'm as anti-Fascist as I am anti-socialist. But I dont see a Fascist movement coming my way so I'm a little more concerned with the socialists.

by Caobhin Mon Jul 09, 2007 10:28

I'm as anti-Fascist as I am anti-socialist.

i.e you are just a right-wing throwback who admires fascism, but will never admit it.

by historian Mon Jul 09, 2007 12:13

Being anti socialist and anti-fascist - as I am myself - is perfectly consistent. Socialist and fascism are the two sides of the one coin of totalitarianism. Democracy and freedom are the alternative to both.

by Caobhin Mon Jul 09, 2007 13:36

Fascism was the creation of capitalism, only an illiterate would claim socialism has anything to do with fascism. Any surface "similarities" (that only convince those of narrow intellect as "being two sides of the same coin") stem from the fact that fascism, being the parasitical creation of the rich, feigned a social, though racist, concern in it's propaganda.

How exactly would you manifest your moronic stance then?

by historian Mon Jul 09, 2007 13:46

Abuse in the place of rational debate. One of the main attributes of the totalitarian mindset in fact. I suggest that you read some actual histories of totalitarianism and the likes of Karl Popper and Isiah Berlin rather than the simplistic and ill informed rhetoric that obviously informs your bizarre world view. Both fascism and socialism place(d) the interests of the state above those of the individual. Fascist and socialist states have had far more in common than either with "bourgeois" democracies and in fact the fascist state was to a great extent modelled on the socialist as created by Lenin and inherited by Stalin. The only real difference between fascism and socialism is that they had different legitimising ideologies but as an expert on such matters and no doubt an erudite scholar of Marx you will be aware that ideology is little more than camoflague for more prosaic interests.

by Caobhin Mon Jul 09, 2007 15:28

Sorry for offending your delicate sensibilities, but if you are going to go around equating fascism with socialism be prepared for a lot worse abuse.

simplistic and ill informed rhetoric that obviously informs your bizarre world view.

This from someone jerking off about "democracy" and "freedom" - where exactly?

"Both fascism and socialism place(d) the interests of the state above those of the individual."

What sort of state would ever place the needs of an individual above the state or society, Imperial Rome? You are equating the demands of private business to those of the individual and performing philosophical somersaults to construct your conceit. In the real world to equate socialism with fascism is naive, simplistic, ignorant and offensive; you ignore the fact that fascism was a reaction against socialism, funded and sponsored by the rich, to quote Mussolini "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism, since it is the merger of state and corporate power."

Maybe you are coming from a misplaced confidence that since the collapse of 1991, capitalism (demoracy and freedom to you) no longer needs to have the crude fascist razor to back you up anymore?

by historian Mon Jul 09, 2007 15:51

As Don above says, classical fascism was anti-capitalist in its origins and while individual capitalists may have funded them the fascist economies were statist and the bourgeois parties were suppressed. Socialism and fascism share a contempt for "bourgeois" values such as democracy, free speech and indiviudal freedom. Sound familiar? It ought to because the same contempt underlay socialism as practised by Lenin and Stalin. Indeed Mussolini was a great admirer of the Bolsheviks even if he was an opponent of the Italian sister party of the Russian totalitarians. Which didn't of course prevent the Soviet Union and Italy enjoying quite close relations, as did Stalin and Hitler to the extent of exchanging prisoners!

Oh and stop trying to pigeon hole me by fitting me into one of your silly little ideological niches. I have as much contempt for fascsim as I do for totalitarians of the left.

by Historian Mon Jul 09, 2007 15:55

You demonstrate your historical and economic ignorance by misunderstanding Mussolini's reference to corporatism. You obviously think he was speaking of corporations as we know them today to mean large businesses. Afraid not. Corporatism as promoted first by Catholic thinkers and taken up by the Italian fascists was something entirely different. Really, you ought to research a bit more before mounting your soap box.

by Caobhin Tue Jul 10, 2007 17:44

"Fascism was anti-capitalist."

I can see the new bedlam influence on this theorem, socialism = fascism, socialism is anti-capitalist, therefore fascism was anti-capitalist. Hand back the brain cell you were given, it could sue you for neglect.

For the benefit of you slow learner(s) again fascism was/is a reaction to socialism Fascism was funded by capitalism and any surface similarities were precisely because fascism is a parasite. You are either completely deluded or a dedicated liar if you cannot accept this.

And spare me your historical lectures; Stalin and Hitler exchanged prisoners did they? Was Stalin the first to sign a pact with Hitler? No, it was the brits. And who betrayed Czechoslovakia? (Please don't go running to your "Neo-Liberals guide to the 20th century " to come back with some spurious retort - I''ve no doubt you can through sweeping generalisations and selective half-truths at me for years)

Your tactic of trying to position the worlds ragbag of robbers be they christian democrats, tories, free marketeers or whatever in the political centre to the exclusion of socialists by equating them with fascists is a tactic worthy of Der Sturmerthough painfully transparent but doubtless you and will nevertheless try milk it to death oblivious to it's hopeless cretinousness.

by historian Tue Jul 10, 2007 19:20

If you had actualy read Der Sturmer you would have found lots of anti-capitalist stuff in it. Mixed with lots of anti-semitic drivel of course.

As for your dismissal of Stalin handing over communists to the Gestapo I just hope that your comrades who had to suffer the consequences at the time took a similar view to yourself. No doubt they died under torture singing the Red Flag. Stalin and Hitler were like two feuding mafia bosses.

by "Historian" Wed Jul 11, 2007 17:42

I was wondering when you would try and paint me as a Stalinist - Stalin was a mudering scumbag who handed over many comrades to Hitler - I was not dismissing anythithis by pointing out that he was not alone in collaborating with the fascists - the brits led the way.

You could have avoided all this if you equated Stalinism with fascism and not tried to denigrate socialism wholesale as a phiosophy.

by Caobhin Wed Jul 11, 2007 17:43

author was me