New Irish socialist newspaper launched

by me Thu Jul 05, 2007 16:16

It's already in Books Upstairs opposite Trinity on College Green.

by anon Thu Jul 05, 2007 18:27

Good to see the non-Leninist left developing and expanding.

by bothways party Thu Jul 05, 2007 19:39

I'm wondering have you left/right party raised Irish issues ?
70% of joe public voted against private hospital on public lands in Sligo....Have you raised this,or what?
one example, of local politics
"charity begins at home"

by isn member Thu Jul 05, 2007 19:43

Well, yes, actually. The ISN opposes co-location and allowing public lands to be hijacked by profit-driven medical businesses. Co-location is given a few wallops in the paper.

by Deirdre C - Anti-War Ireland (personal capacity) Fri Jul 06, 2007 10:32

It's a good paper full of sensibly expressed opinions from the non-authoritarian left. Well worth a look. Any paper that can compare John Gormley to Homer Simpson has to have something ... though it's probably a bit of an insult to Homer Simpson. I nearly barfed at the Olympia last night when Gormley got a positive mention from the stage from Michael Stipe. Clearly, nobody's told him about Shannon and the M3 motorway.

by Buck Rodgers Fri Jul 06, 2007 11:45

"non-authoritarian left"

Who the hell are the authoritarian left?

The CPI have about 10 members.

by Flash Gordon Fri Jul 06, 2007 11:50

"Who the hell are the authoritarian left?"

Well theres the SWP, WP, I won't include the SP because they will work with people in campaigns without taking over the campaign like the SWP did with the IAWM (I could provide a lot more examples).

by Deirdre Clancy - AWI (personal capacity) Fri Jul 06, 2007 12:44

... was what I meant - those who believe in grassroots democracy, as opposed to centralised, deeply hierarchical and authoritarian organisation. The latter are generally those who also engage in platform politics, flitting from issue to issue. Shannon Warport is a distant memory for many of them, to speak to an issue close to my heart. The tendency towards compromise is stronger.

by Joe Soap Fri Jul 06, 2007 13:00

Whatever happened after the great warning to Bertie announced in Shannon several months ago? We are all still waiting for you "direct action" people to force the yanks out of SNN. Whatever happened to the great Anti-war Ireland? I honestly think you are all a bunch of ego maniacs

by Joan soap Fri Jul 06, 2007 13:39

And I honestly think you are somebody who lacks the courage to post under his real name but feels able to denounce people who have put themselves on the line for their belieft as "egomaniacs", because ... they haven't singlehandedly driven the US army out of Shannon. Boo to them! They should be ashamed of themselves

by isn member Fri Jul 06, 2007 13:55

"I honestly think you are all a bunch of ego maniacs"

This is the typical rhetoric of a certain type of narrow authoritarian quasi-marxist who has to find something - anything - aberrant about those who won't follow the 'line'. "Ye're all either mentally ill or individualists!!" "Moralists" is another one thrown at the unbelievers. Excuse me while I yawn.

by Deirdre Clancy - AWI Fri Jul 06, 2007 14:14

Well, ya know, as a member of the 'great Anti-War Ireland' (thanks for complimenting us, by the way), I can say that I'm definitely off the hook for a little while at least, having spent over three years within a legal process as a result of participating in the disabling of a warplane in 2003 (though in the Pitstop Ploughshares and not an AWI capacity). It's coming up to the one-year anniversary of our unanimous acquittal by a jury of our peers last year, which by the way, showed clearly what the person on the street thinks of Ireland servicing the US war machine (thanks again to the Greens for their spectacular U-turn on Shannon and misrepresentation of the electorate).

Other members and friends of AWI have done direct action also, and spent time in Limerick Prison as a result. We believe in non-violent DA as one of many tactics, not the only one. We have organised public meetings with great speakers and continue to meet and plan.

But if you're 'waiting' for more NVDA, Joe, I suggest you go and do some yourself. In the meantime, you may wish to have the integrity to post on Indymedia under your real name when you're attacking anti-war or other groups.

by d'other Fri Jul 06, 2007 18:19

Is there a link to a PDF version of the paper anywhere?

by ISNer Fri Jul 06, 2007 21:38

No pdf link at this time. Might stick one up at a later stage. Plenty of hardcopies available though via the outlets above or we'll snail mail you a copy or copies free-of-charge if you email us at irishsocialistnetwork@dublin.ie

by talksport Fri Jul 06, 2007 22:31

George is on now talksport, radio his suave use of the english language is delightful tol isten to.

by Starstruck - WSM (pers cap) Sat Jul 07, 2007 10:23

Keep up the good work.
As for those who are "all still waiting for you "direct action" people to force the yanks out of SNN",the irony of your comment is amusing.
Fair play ISN.

by update Sat Jul 07, 2007 11:52

As of this morning, free copies of Resistance can be obtained in Cork in the Quay Co-op (downstairs near the stairs) on Sullivan's Quay and in Barracka Books on Barrack Street. Should be in a couple of county shops later.

by Ciarán Sat Jul 07, 2007 18:54

Will the paper eventually be available outside Cork and Dublin?

by ISNer Sat Jul 07, 2007 19:17

It will be distributed in Belfast by the Belfast branch of the ISN. Elsewhere, we expect supporters and 'sympathisers' (wot dat?) to pass it around and get it into a few bookshops and/or other spots. We'll take all the help we can get, so if you're on for dropping a few copies into a shop or two, or want some for your mates, just email us and we'll send them on. If you like the first issue and want to continue distributing copies, then we'll put you on the list for a bunch each time.

This is our first issue and, without doubt, it'll take a while to build up a stable national distribution network. Bear with us, though, coz we'll get there! Will take a few issues, however, and the translation of goodwill into active help.

When we've a set of places that'll regularly stock the paper, we'll publish the list.

So, if anybody is inclined to help us get Resistance into the obscure and not-so-obscure corners of Ireland (and beyond), please do email us at irishsocialistnetwork@dublin.ie

by eeekkkk Sun Jul 08, 2007 00:03

i'd be interested to know who the target audience is. Who is the paper designed to reach that fo example indymedia can't?

by Late night ISNer Sun Jul 08, 2007 01:27

"i'd be interested to know who the target audience is. Who is the paper designed to reach that fo example indymedia can't?"

Target audience? Anybody and everybody.
As the paper is a real tangible foldy over thing in colour I would imagine that it has the possibiltiy of reaching parts that indymedia doesn't. That said it does have a nice plug for imc along with plugs for other progressives.

by Future Reader Sun Jul 08, 2007 02:43

I am looking forward to reading it. One question I have: is this not a bit too much like the WSM freesheet? the fold-over format, the plugs for imc etc. Maybe ISN considered this and think it a winning formula? Will you find it difficult to fundraise for it? if there is no nominal price how can it sustain itself?

by Sir Ken Sun Jul 08, 2007 08:09

A British poet a few decades ago wrote a short poem that went: Dear Sir, I have read your manifesto with great interest /But it says nothing about music. [Adrian Mitchell, if I remember]
Socialist newspapers/magazines are so repetitious and joyless that they fail to gain viable readerships. Their editors and assistant staff generally have to hog the publications on the streets and in the pubs. The writers rant and rave and eventually cease publication for lack of public interest. So, I want to ask: 1. Will there be any fun in this forthcoming publication? 2. Will there be a sports page devoted to racing and football? 3. Will there be a cookery page? (I'd love a recipe for baking socialist jam tarts.)

by Mr Fish Sun Jul 08, 2007 16:08

Whatever floats your boat. Tell me, though, why do you bother tuning into indymedia? We've no dance/musik/film/sports page here either. Just the usual "repetitious" stuff.

by me Mon Jul 09, 2007 10:20

No pdf but the text of one of the Resistance articles - on the Greens - has been posted on another indy thread:

http://indymedia.ie/article/83347&comment_limit=0&conde...00544

by historian Mon Jul 09, 2007 13:37

Good point. The most successful left win papers such as the old Daily Worker/Morning Star and the French and Italian CP papers all covered areas other than politics. To my knowledge the only Irish left wing paper that has sports and reviews is An Phoblacht. Often the only parts worth reading!

by hmm Mon Jul 09, 2007 13:52

With Moscow gold or the sort of dosh available to the Provos, I'm sure the ISN would launch its own satelite politico-sports channel but, let's be fair here, a poorly resourced leftie group has to focus on politics when it produces a publication. Anyway, 'Historian', there's a review of a history book: doesn't that please you?

by Deirdre C - AWI (personal capacity) Mon Jul 09, 2007 14:28

It'd be great to read an Irish left-wing paper or magazine that had a broader appeal than just campaigns and political theory. Broad arts coverage and sports (perhaps) would be a start, as well as some good-quality funny stuff. I've always thought that was one of the things that put people off the left in Ireland - the at times dull and always relentlessly worthy nature of even its more moderate publications. The hard-core stuff needs to be balanced out by some entertainment (albeit intelligent entertainment). There is some talent on the left, and much of it is either wasted or lifted off Indymedia unattributed by the mainstream media (I mean the better quality features and contributions to this site, as opposed to the tiresome conspiracy theory stuff).

I suspect the will and resources aren't there to keep a proper publication going in an environment where even mainstream publications have problems with circulation, though there are various gallant efforts out there (including the WSM's paper). The ISN has also produced a literate and more-lively-than-usual publication on small resources. That's an achievement.

by Dub Mon Jul 09, 2007 14:42

Deirdre C makes the point it would be good to see broader coverage in left-wing press. Indeed it would. But there is the problem of space. The two main publications on the left the Socialist Worker and The Socialist are generally 12 to 16 pages every month. Other publications such as Workers' Solidarity are also tight on space. If a political organisation wants to get its message accross on the live issues in society in a monthly publication then they can't spend too much time on arts and culture as they would like. If these publications were either larger or more regular then there would not be the same problem. In short if you want broader coverage in left publications we need to grow the left and we need to regularly buy/get these publications. The Communist Party in the UK were able to include other things as they had a large base of support among the British working class! So let's go out a grow the political left among the Irish working class!

by historian Mon Jul 09, 2007 16:19

It could just be that the dullness of the literature reflects the dullness of the left itself. At least the oul Provos seem to be into the Gah and enjoy a bit of a knees up. A bit like most Irish people strangely enough :)

by Deirdre Cl - AWI (personal capacity) Mon Jul 09, 2007 16:45

>It could just be that the dullness of the literature reflects the dullness of the left itself.

Strangely enough, I agree with that statement. The left in Ireland is, in the overall sense, deadly dull (with some honourable exceptions, obviously).

Mind you, the neo-liberal politicians aren't that engaging either, except insofar as they are unintentionally funny at times. Having said that, their promises of continued unlimited growth in wealth and prosperity (regardless of planetary issues and other problems associated with too-fast economic growth), many Irish people don't find dull at all, and have no problem happily swallowing, at whatever cost to social equality and our national integrity. But, as Bertie says, sceptics should either all go off and top themselves or shut the *&%$ up.

It's the responsibility of the left to be imaginative in response to the PR slickness of the established politicians of the day. We've so far failed in Ireland to produce anything attractive and imaginative enough to be a proper antidote to the popular worship of FF, which is long on spin and short on substance. The Irish left, though small in number, has at least some substance but is lacking in style.

by isn member - ISN Mon Jul 09, 2007 16:46

Is available from Connolly Books East Essex Street.

by another isn member Mon Jul 09, 2007 16:50

It's also in the public library in Skibbereen, Co. Cork.

Whatever happened to the nice eco-shop that used to exist in Skibb? It's really hard to find shops nowadays that are willing to stock radical left publications.

by Dub Mon Jul 09, 2007 17:06

Deirdre C: "[the left] has at least some substance but is lacking in style"

What exactly does this mean? My experience of the left is that there is plenty of 'style'! Are you saying that the left need to adopt more personality politics? Or adopt popularism? The adoption of popularism is a political question. You cannot be a leftist and engage in empty popularism at the same time! What exactly are you saying?

by someone who's not you Mon Jul 09, 2007 17:39

I suspect you mean 'populism'. Very irritiable, aren't you? Deirdre can speak for herself but I'm guessing she's simply referring to how the left presents itself and its arguments. For example, why should left-wing papers be dully designed etc. Don't know but I rather doubt she's arguing for Blairism, my hyper-alert friend.

by bill - . Mon Jul 09, 2007 18:08

socialist voice and socialist worker are mindnumbingly boring reads. as members of both parties admit.

by Caoimhin Og Tue Jul 10, 2007 09:44

Why bother to launch another left publication if, like so many predecessors, it bores the pants off both readers and supporters? Activist journalists might as well be producing and distributing gospel tracts and turgid stuff such as Jehovah Witness literature, for all the effect it has on mainstream society. Mass circulation tabloid papers dwell on distracting infotainment, about so-called celebrities, horse racing, sexual acrobatics and whatever you're having yourself, and laugh all the way to the bank. The TV soaps and game shows entertain us to death while evading many crunch issues of daily living. The left 'alternative' publications push themselves into nooks and crannies through sheer dulness and puritanical disdain for fun. Is there any imaginative communication ability out there among dissidents? Do they know joy as well as commitment?

by Deirdre Cl - Personal capacity Tue Jul 10, 2007 10:28

I'm not arguing for personality politics. By 'style', I don't think that the left should start wearing Versache. I thought that would be obvious.

Generally, I find personality politics equally dull and counter-productive and there is enough of it in various left-leaning campaigns and movements in Ireland, and it doesn't always equals good leadership. As regards popularism, I agree that much of it is empty, but not everything that becomes popular is empty. French workers, students and intellectuals rebelled in huge numbers in '68 and it was a popular uprising, if slightly flawed in certain ways. There's no way any movement as widespread or broad based could happen in Ireland in the current climate.

'Someone who's not you' is correct - I'm mainly talking about how arguments are presented. However, there are other ways in which the left can undermine itself in the eyes of normal, decent people. Conscious fostering of, or over-tolerance of, eccentric or problematic ideas is one. For instance, when a group is spending a good part of its energy arguing for freedom for communist war criminals from former Yugoslavia, it's the responsibility of the left to point out that this may not be a good idea (to put it mildly). The 9/11 conspiracy theorists can be vocal and undermine the credibility of the anti-war movement, and not much is done to provide equally vocal counter-arguments (barring one or two people within the Indymedia collective).

Freedom of speech is important and you can't silence these elements, so the only way to protect the left's credibility is to a) verbally distance oneself strongly from them b) find ways to be imaginative in how decent, rigorous arguments are presented in the first place.

There are plenty of people with the skills to present ideas engagingly, but many of them aren't particularly motivated in the proper context - again, with a few honourable exceptions.

by Peter Mannion Tue Jul 10, 2007 11:30

Was Joe Higgins in the Dáil not colourful and stylish? He used satire to get left-wing politics out to a wider audience and it worked. He got 5.5% in Dublin Euro election, is known by thousands up and down the country and is even in popular culture (Ross O'Carroll Kelly books for example). In fact it could even be said Richard Boyd-Barrett was colourful in his manipulation of media although he was not as successful as Higgins in getting a political message across. During the recent election campaign Clare Daly was also quite good in a media setting and apparently really set things alight in her constituency. But still Deirdre says the left lacks style. Conspiracy theorists and defenders of war criminals are fringe muppets that I've never met (or at least spent no time thinking about) but yet you raise them? odd.

by me Tue Jul 10, 2007 11:37

Lefties are incredibly defensive, are they not? I don't see anything controversial or strange in Deirdre's comment.

by MOD Tue Jul 10, 2007 11:55

"There are plenty of people with the skills to present ideas engagingly, but many of them aren't particularly motivated in the proper context - again, with a few honourable exceptions."

Who is in a position to sit in judgment on others about these things? How do you know what the right skills, motivation or context is? Your statement implies a better-activist-than-thou attitude. Should we take it that you are among the 'honourable exceptions' yourself? Clever enough to be able to spot people who see and express things the way you think is best?

On a separate point, there is a certain element among the left who are a bit sneery about people who may not have had the same educational advantages as themselves - who slap other people's work down because their grammar may not be perfect or whatever. People do their best from their convictions - we have a duty to respect eveyone's contribution and it's dangerous to be critical on the basis of educational attainment - it's a sort of educational imperialism. One person's 'boring' is another person's hard graft and well-meant contribution.

On another aspect of that theme, it would be fantastic if we had an organisation like the UK Workers Education Association - education for working people by working people. It existed before the modern education system was established. Anyone can propose a course on any subject and if it is approved the WEA will fund them for rooms and facilities etc - it's an egalitarian form of education which places much higher value on all sorts of skills, experience and abilities than our rigid education system does. There are criticisms that are made of the WEA but it's heart is definitely in the right place.

http://www.wea.org.uk/aboutus/index.htm

by Deirdre Cl - Personal capacity Tue Jul 10, 2007 12:13

Threads are always great fun (not) once selective readers enter the fray. I mentioned that there were honourable exceptions to the dullness of the left several times. Joe Higgins is definitely one of those - he was successful and did provide some meaningful leadership. Few people would argue that he didn't have a certain sophisitication and flair in how he presented himself and his politics (apart from certain RTE hacks, who never gave him a fair crack of the whip, and referred to him as 'for the birds' or 'extreme' on a routine basis). I've met plenty of political moderates who would at least acknowledge his abilities as an orator, even if they don't agree fully with his politics. People like Joe Higgins are exceptional - the fact that you bring him up just proves my point, rather than anything else. He is respected also because he's willing to put himself on the line (which is an important element of his appeal).

When you use the word 'odd', what you seem to be implying is that it's odd that anyone on the left should engage in critical reflection of the left itself. I've encountered this view plenty of times before and I don't agree with it. If you haven't met the elements I'm talking about, you've been burying your head in the sand - they're quite in evidence in various campaigns and I've spoken to people who've been deeply alienated by their presence and have limited their involvement in said campaigns because of it. It really does have a detrimental effect and really does alienate potentially good activists. You may not see this as unfortunate but I do.

It is important to acknowledge achievements that occur, but this happens all the time anyway. I would only be engaging on cliche at this stage by saying, 'Isn't the Irish left great? The revolution is just around the corner!'

by MOD Tue Jul 10, 2007 14:20

There is a difference between condescension and self-reflection. You started off with one and are now dressing it up as the other!

At least you have approved the ISN's latest initiative. Phew. Haven't seen the new ISN publication yet but if it is anything like their website then it's very good.

by w. - wsm Tue Jul 10, 2007 15:23

I've seen the paper, it's great. Congrats to the ISN.

by Deirdre Cl - Personal capacity Tue Jul 10, 2007 16:15

It's not hard to see who you are, MOD. You turn up on a couple of other of the very few threads where, usually to engage in selective reading of what I or others actually say and to attribute arguments to people that haven't actually been made (where, for instance, did I say anything about formally educated activists being in any way superior? That's clearly a boulder you have on your own shoulder - in fact, some of the best activists I've come across as very much self-educated and I have no prejudices in this area).

Most regular Indymedia readers know who you are. It's not that hard to spot. Maybe you should have the decency to at least be open about your personal vendettas.

by me Tue Jul 10, 2007 16:15

"There is a difference between condescension and self-reflection. You started off with one and are now dressing it up as the other!"

Oooh, we're getting down in the mud and nasty now! Can't you make your point without the personal jibes? Deirdre has made a fair point and clarified what she meant: you can accept or reject that, but give over with the mud slinging.

Imho, a discussion of leftist production values is no bad thing. You can have great political arguments, but if you present them badly, fewer people listen. We should always be looking for clearer and effective ways to spread the word. The development of indymedia, for example, is a good instance of leftists adapting to new media and consequently engaging a wider audience. Self-reflection and self-criticism (within limits) are essential.

by MOD Tue Jul 10, 2007 23:04

"You can have great political arguments, but if you present them badly, fewer people listen."

We are talking about a bottom-up movement to achieve real democracy. My point is related to the fact that many people at the disadvantaged end of the economic heirarchy don't or can't express themselves in ways that conform to conventional notions of expressive ability/talent. It doesnt mean that what they have to say is less valid or intelligent - it only means that they do it differently. They are the authority on what disadvantage does to people and if we don't respect that then we are wasting our time. Those who have had the 'advantage' of a conventional education, while obviously having acquired a lot of useful information along the way, are often distanced from the perspective of hard-pressed working people. The literature of socialism is often depressing and challenging because the reality of what is being described is depressing and challenging. Sincerity and determination may result in what some people describe as boring prose, but we should/must listen and attend to all that is said without giving in to lazy and intoleraant censure because it hasn't been made entertaining enough for those who are only intersted in 'brilliance'.

by me Tue Jul 10, 2007 23:42

What 'we' should do and what we actually do are not always the same thing. People don't attach themselves to a social movement because they 'should' (a moral and subjective criteria) but because they are convinced by circumstances (socio-economic factors and so on) or by intelligent argument (however articulated), generally the former in large scale organic movements.

I agree with a significant amount of what you write but am puzzled by the following:

"Those who have had the 'advantage' of a conventional education, while obviously having acquired a lot of useful information along the way, are often distanced from the perspective of hard-pressed working people."

Why do you see these as mutually distinct? I've had a good and conventional education and I've also experienced directly the perspective of the "hard pressed working people". I know many others in a similar position, whether they got their education through the university system or by self-learning. Your depiction of working people comes close to being a caricature - the fustian jacketed, earthy man of toil as opposed to the out-of-touch middle class 'well-educated' types. It's not that simple by a long shot. I know plenty of working class people who are articulate and able in the 'conventional' sense.

by MOD - Personal Capacity Wed Jul 11, 2007 09:18

I don't see 'educated' and 'working class' as distinct. You invert my meaning - it is the very caricature you describe that I'm arguing against. People are articlate and able in lots of different ways - convetional and otherwise. However there is a strong tendency to prefer the characteristics of conventionally assessed ability and it has nothing to do with inate ability. Convention has it that communication - written and oral - ought to take certain forms - there is an imperialism of the mind in that and it is something that makes a lot of people feel intimidated and indadequate in certain circumstances - and it isnt just economically disadvantaged people who feel that though it would be dishonest not to acknowledge that they are disproportionately affected.

Some of the most intelligent people in society can neither read nor write - more often than not they go to enormous and ingenious lengths to disguise the fact from a feeling of shame. There is a whole other philosophy of life in that existence from which the rest of us could benefit enormously if enough attention and respect was paid to it. Certificated education is like a stamp of social approval - a validation exercise in a much wider sense than merely demonstrating that a person has learned certain things. That's an insidious fact. We dont see many people in prominent positions in our current social/political order who have not been successfully processed through the validation system. Yet the sort of society that many people on Indymedia are arguing for would render 'education' a far less significant thing than it is now in the wider sense. Government of the people by the people would not make education or certain forms of communicative ability preconditions for full participation - not if it was being true to itself. I'm not saying that it is unimportant whether or not people inform themselves - it's a question of separating that out from the value judgments that go with it and which operate like a vicious social tyranny on decent and able people.

by me - also personal capacity Wed Jul 11, 2007 09:40

Okay, that's a bit clearer that your earlier argument, which seemed to counterpose the two. Formal education does have it's uses - for instance, some process of learning is needed to generate good engineers, doctors, computer programmers etc. etc., and, beyond that, there is a great deal to be learned from literature, languages, history, philosophy, sociology, etc. etc. Of course, there is no denying that many subjects, such as sociology and history, are ideologically loaded and their focus and presentation shaped by forces that don't have the welfare of working people in mind. They still have their uses, though.

That said, I fully agree with what you say about the social value and privileging currently attached to formal - 'conventional' - education. Actually, I don't think I disagree with any of your points in your last posting. I think we're on the same page, basically.

by MOD/Miriam Cotton Wed Jul 11, 2007 10:50

"Formal education does have it's uses - for instance, some process of learning is needed to generate good engineers, doctors, computer programmers etc. etc., and, beyond that, there is a great deal to be learned from literature, languages, history, philosophy, sociology, etc. etc."

I agree - we need universities of libertarian socialism. Places of study and learning to help us liberate our thinking across a whole range of issues. The sad fact is that our society has a brutalising affect on us all in more ways than we know. All sorts of nasty stuff rubs off on our way of thinking and seeing. We recognise a lot of what is wrong with what we see in the more obvious ways, we've internalised the prevailing system of rationality to a much greater extent than we know. I know it sounds corny but it has actually seriously eroded our ability to be kind to and about each other - that is the nature of a capitalist society. Unless we come at this project with full recognition of all the obstacles we face, we can't succeed. In a climate where human life is reduced to a form of economic currency - 'human resources' - it is once again the most disadvantaged people who tend to experience the greatest of the resulting brutality - social/economic/philisophical etc. It makes people defensive and unkind among themselves in ways that the system makes it hard to see. Of course the sickest and most brutal people of all are the wealthy - unavoidably corrupted by excess. We have to understand all of these psychological and philosophical phenomena if our libertarian society is to have any chance of succeeding. We've seen what happened with socialism in Russia - and while it's customary to point to organisational flaws, so far as I am aware, there doesn't appear to be any attempt to define what the psychological/anthropological characteristics of a libertarian society might be. In theory, it logically suggests a kinder and more respectful society of people who put the notion of 'people are born equal' - in all its vast significance - to the fore. I'd argue that a lot of the brutality that characterised the Russian revolution arose as much from a failure to recognise that people would inevitably carry forward the brutalist attitudes of their old society. Sudden liberty acted as a rush of blood to the head - and everywhere people started doing to others what had been done to them, in essence. They were not psychologically prepared for it as much as anything else - it hadn't been thought through how people might need a revolution in attitude and behaviour before attempting anything.

by Deirdre Cl - Personal capacity Wed Jul 11, 2007 11:20

MOD/Miriam, I agree with many of your views on these issues - just wanted to clarify that. Some of the 'dullness' I mentioned - in fact, much of it - comes of the highly (formally) educated left (though this is not uniform). Some of the wackier theories I mentioned come from the academic elite (for example, in the US, several of the 9/11-was-a-Jewish/CIA-conspiracy guys appear to be fully tenured at highly thought of third-level institutions and many of the Irish exponents of these ideas are educated people).

I didn't make any distinction in my original comments in this regard. I feel I've learnt a lot more useful things myself from informal experience and research than formal education (though that's not to say it doesn't have its uses, as has already been pointed out on this thread - it can be very useful in some respects). And I think you're quite right about conventionally 'valid' forms of expression often being a subtle (or not-so-subtle) way of silencing the disadvantaged.

We probably agree on most of these issues, ironically, given how this started out.
My basic view on these things is extremely simple - nothing beats basic common sense. I don't care, overall, what quarters it comes from.

by Miriam Wed Jul 11, 2007 11:31

To add to my last post here is a quote from a paper on becoming a personal anarchist - put's it much better:

"As personal consciousness evolves from the relationship between the individual and the group a sense of mutuality and compassion develops, based on the natural human tendency to attempt to discover the laws of nature and live in harmony with them. "The most general law in nature is equity - the principle of balance and symmetry which guides the growth of forms along the lines of the greatest structural efficiency (Read, 1971, p. 41)." Anarchist philosophy suggests that when the principle of equity is followed, and constructs are revised to correspond more closely to events, human social conduct will naturally be "moral" and co-operative. In contrast, behavior that fails to adapt to the nature of events leads to conflict and "immoral" behavior toward others, such as hostility (Kelly, 1971b). This natural sense of proper conduct becomes distorted when it is modified into moral laws which are then institutionalized into religious, legal, and political organizations. The natural "instincts" become deformed by being rigidly defined and ultimately inhibited by the weight of the structure: "

http://www.oikos.org/anarchist.htm

by D_D Wed Jul 11, 2007 12:00

Deirdre Cl, in general, has a major point to make about perception and relevance. This, pertinent, discussion of presentation values on the left arose from the launch of ‘Resistance’. It should be noted that a feature of the new publication is good production: full colour, decent design.

Congratulations on the paper. It can only add, add value that is, to the left press. There is much to agree with in the first issue. Disagreements can be handled in the available fora and with respect.

‘Workers Solidarity’ must be glad that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. We cogged it too with ‘Independent Left’

An example of ‘socialism with style’ might be the British ‘Red Pepper’ magazine, also available in Books Upstairs. ‘Gralton’ magazine had a stab at it, all those years ago, and the short-lived ‘Z Magazine’ even more so. Remember ‘Rebel’? (You have something to say on this thread too, Mike, I think.)

Though for some the content might have masked it, there is no doubting the design values of much of the IS/SWP output, including Britain, over the years. Framework Films made a very good job of the Gama video from the Socialist Party. Worth a look if you haven’t looked yet.

A lot of the good presentation, and encouragement of the social side of political activity, has come from the libertarian end of things: the gigs, the parties, the ‘Revolt Video’, etc.

by Miriam Wed Jul 11, 2007 12:55

(Hi Deirdre - agree with your last post)

The earlier link I posted ought to have come with a health warning - its a good paper but grows somewhat turgid in places i.e. anybody who finds themselves using the expresssion 'supraordinate constructs' really ought to get a grip. Here is a funny account by Bob James 'Journey through anarchism is Australia'. One excerpt on the theme above:

Andrew Giles-Peters, teaching 'revolutionary history' at LaTrobe Uni, Mike Matheson in Sydney and various others wanted to talk anarchist history but that apparently meant the Spanish Civil War, and the 1917 Russian Revolution, and Emma Goldman - talk about cultural cringe! Calling oneself an 'anarchist' didn't seem an adequate door-opener, since there seemed to be lots of different kinds - anarcho-feminists, anarcho-syndicalists, anarcho-communists, anarcho-trotskyists !!! - who all seemed quite dismissive of one another's answers and barely able to remain civil - which made me wonder which came first? Did the frustration cause the constant moving about, the lack of stability, or was the conditioning that 'anarchists' brought with them from the 'straight' world producing the lack of cohesion, solidarity, dare I say it, the lack of camaraderie?

http://www.takver.com/history/journey.htm

by MichaelY - iawm - per cap Wed Jul 11, 2007 13:08

This is an excellent thread - am following it with delight, particularly as it is great to see Deirdre back and buzzing, Miriam responding with so much sensitivity and now, my good friend D_D reminding us all of some excellent and noteworthy examples of good and solid work of Left activists and militants in the past.
Some of us, oldies in the Left, have been thinking for a while on ways and means of attempting a theoretical reconstitution of our positive heritage. This debate goes a long way towards that objective. To add to D_D's list, I thought, yes of 'Rebel', and of a publication I was involved in so many years ago, I searched earlier some of the old suitcases and I came across a poem we published in Dec 1978 in the no.11 issue of our journal 'The Ripening of Time'. I thought it was very apt re: what happened ni Islamabad yesterday and some of the developments of our new Government here re: the new 'reformed' EU Treate (see: Constitution) and, of course, Shannon, Iraq and Palestine.

When we were the persecuted, I was one of you, How can I remain one, when you become the persecutoirs?
Your longing was, to become like other nations, who murdered you, now you have become like them.
You have outlived,those who were cruel to you. Does their cruelty live on in you now?
You ordered the defeated: 'Take off your boots"! Like the scapegoat you drove them into the wilderness.
Into the great mosque of death, whose sandals are of sand, but they did not take upon them the sin, you wished to lay on them.
The imprint of their naked feet in the desert sand outlasts the traces of your bombs and your tanks.

The poem is by the German poet Erich Fried. Initially entitled 'Hear O'Israel' - I have retitled it 'To Whom it may Concern'

by Deirdre Cl - Personal capacity Thu Jul 12, 2007 12:07

This is the type of political commentary that can liven things up a bit (link below). A sense of the ridiculous would definitely go some way towards enhancing the 'style' of lefty Ireland and making it more effective at pointing out when the emperor has no clothes. Maybe someone should give Joe Higgins a regular radio slot (not likely to happen in the MSM, though). I'm sure it would gain a cult following among some of us at least.

Link to:
Bush Pardons Entire GOP
Prez "pre-emptively" saves all Repubs from becoming "prison bitches." Dems: "Can he do that?"
By Mark Morford, SF Gate Columnist
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/g/a/2007/07/11...l=fix

by SP voter Thu Jul 12, 2007 12:40

"Maybe someone should give Joe Higgins a regular radio slot (not likely to happen in the MSM, though). I'm sure it would gain a cult following among some of us at least."

You are right to say the mainstream media would not want someone like Joe Higgins going against the views of their owners. But on the other hand they are out to make money. Who knows Joe may be approached to do something like this as it would bring in listeners, readers, etc.!

by Deirdre Cl Thu Jul 12, 2007 14:11

... to get Joe Higgins a national radio show! It definitely won't be RTE 1 as they're currently in the middle of an ongoing cull of all their decent regulars (Vincent Browne being the latest victim). 'The Last Word with Joe Higgins' has a certain ring to it, though ... or perhaps something on Newstalk. Now that he's not in the Dail he'd probably be even more entertaining, especially as there's no Ceann Comhairle to interrupt.

by Sir Ken Fri Jul 13, 2007 10:02

I'm glad that this thread has had some sort of a continuing discussion.
Some points made so far include: a) publications of 12-16 pages can't spare space for fun topics like music and sport; b) the dulness in left publications may reflect the challenged personalities of those who produce them; c) heavy ideological turn-off writing in left publications often comes from people who've been through the university grindmill; d) a few contributors think readers want to read more than stuff about economic and social campaigns; e) Joe Higgins as a socialist TD demonstrated creative tactical humour in his Dail interventions and sometimes when interviewed on the media.
Now I hope other contributors will volunteer suggestions for making left publications more widely read and effective. During the anti-Vietnam war campaigning days in USA (that could be quite a while back, eh?) one publication stood out for lively writing and layout. It was called Ramparts. But it finally bit the dust.
Is it sinful to try and run a left publication as a business? And to design a lively product, and to devise dynamic marketing strategies? Why leave such things to the capitalists?

by Commoner Barbie Fri Jul 13, 2007 10:11

Link for those who never heard of it.

by historian Fri Jul 13, 2007 10:34

The difference between sucessful publications of the left in the past - L'Humanite and Unita and even the Daily Worker/Morning Star - was that the organisations that produced them had a genuine basis in working class and the intelligentsia and thus that culture was reflected in its coverage of sport, arts etc as well as politics and the writing was often of a high standard.

The Irish left - with the exception of the Shinners - does not have those kind of roots. An Phoblacht, whatever you may think of the politics, is well produced and can be quite interesting at times if still a bit top heavy in polemics. The far left publications are simply dull, badly written and preachy.

by reader Fri Jul 13, 2007 10:57

"The far left publications are simply dull, badly written and preachy."

This is a bit of generalisation. Have you seen the new ISN paper that this thread relates to? I don't believe any of the above applies.

I disagree with you about An Phoblacht. Horses for courses maybe, but I stop reading it several years ago precisely because it had become dull and preachy (i.e. mostly just gave us the 'on message' party line).

by historian Fri Jul 13, 2007 11:52

Haven't actually seen the ISN one so will forbear judgement until then! Phoblacht can be a bit tiresome as you say but usually have a few interesting pieces. Good Irish humourous column, sports page and sometimes reviews.

by An actual Historian Fri Jul 13, 2007 13:44

"The Irish left - with the exception of the Shinners - does not have those kind of roots [in the working class]."

Without a doubt Sinn Féin do have a base of support. Republicanism is a well established political trend in Ireland. However I don't think you can say that An Phoblacht or anyother republican publication has roots in working class communities. Sinn Féin do not promote their newspaper and don't use it as a financial tool in the way the socialist organisations do. I was told be one Sinn Féin member I know that SF don't publish it themselves and they pay a member to do it and any finances raised go to pay him rather than create a surplus for SF funds. I think that the Socialist Party's newspaper The Socialist can make a claim to having a strong root in certain working class areas than An Phoblacht. From what I hear they sell it quite extensively around areas they have support (Mulhuddart & Swords for example). I'm not sure about the extent of the SWP selling the Socialist Worker anymore since their turn towards the PBPA. I've been to a few demos and not seen one copy of Socialist Worker. The ISN and WSM publications are in reality a series of free leaflets. They are delivered free door-to-door and to say they have a root in the working class is a bit much as working class people are not choosing to buy it. It may be well known and indeed well read but so are Dominos Pizza leaflets! What do people think about free v. sell?

by reader Fri Jul 13, 2007 14:05

Difficult not to see what political stable 'an actual historian' is coming. To say that The Socialist is better known in working class communities than An Phoblacht is a pure fantasy. The snide attempted put-down of the WSM and ISN is very unbecoming. Repulsive even.

by An actual Historian Fri Jul 13, 2007 14:11

You're wrong about "stable"! Making accusations like that only antagonises others.

Without a doubt An Phoblacht would be best known. Like it's party that newspapers name is well established - republican organisations have had the name "An Phoblacht" on newspapers for decades. But what I was saying was that the SP, SWP etc would be more prominant in circulating their newspaper. They use their newspapers on all activities and it's quite central to what they do. This is not a snide remark it's a fact. I was not trying to put down the ISN and WSM. I wanted to spark a debate on the merits of freesheets v sold newspapers. There is a difference as with a freesheet a person is not making decision to purchase a political newspaper. But the merits are that it gets a very wide circulation and if delivered regularly can get a name for itself.

by reader Fri Jul 13, 2007 14:34

To suggest that the the WSM and ISN freesheets are 'leaflets' was an attempt to dismiss them. Both publications carry quite a lot of articles and are substantial efforts.

I take your point about the difference between free and sold newspapers but I fail to see how sales act as a barometer of anything. SP and SWP see 'selling the paper' as one of their primary roles and this harks back to the days of Iskra and the centrality of 'the paper' in the Leninist tradition. It has the merit of getting the troops out there working the crowds but it also projects an image of groups - the SWP in particular - as permanent in-your-face paper sellers.

SF have far more members, so 'selling the paper', proportionately speaking, isn't as primary an activity. They have the membership to handle it while doing lots of other stuff, and not all members need to be conscript to flog the paper. The SWP and SP, by constrast, oblige ALL their members to get out there to push the product. SF has thousands of members; the SP and SWP have memberships in the very low hundreds, perhaps only 150 to 200 each; the WSM and ISN have a few dozen members each.

Re. An Phoblacht: I don't know where you live, but in my world An Phoblacht has always been very visible. It's often sold around the pubs and door-to-door. I see it being sold regularly - I never see The Socialist or Socialist Worker being sold except on left-wing demonstrations. SF clearly has a greater reach and can get their literature into far more working-class communities. I'm not a Sinn Fein supporter, so this is simply what I've experienced, not a plug.

by reader Fri Jul 13, 2007 15:26

By the way, I'd favour free papers for two reasons:

1. Thousands can be produced and distributed quickly. People don't have to make a decision to buy it: it's found on the hall floor or is handed to them free on the street. This means it is more likely to reach large numbers of people who haven't yet thought about socialism. Sold papers are generally only bought by the converted.

2. I find it really annoying to be badgered by paper sellers at a demo, particularly if I don't especially feel like financially supporting a particular group. If I get something free, I'll read it and, who knows, it might wise me up on the political viewpoint/arguments of the group in question. I find paper sellers on demos to be a plague - and I don't think I'm an exception in that regard. Mosquitos selling the mosquito press.

by reader Fri Jul 13, 2007 15:36

A third reason why I'd prefer free papers (from an activist's point of view):

3. Selling papers is very time consuming and often demoralising (they don't go quickly). Free papers involve less time to distribute, you get less abuse and you're more available for activism in communities, campaigns, etc. It's amazing how much time the SWP and SP members have to expend on flogging the paper. To an outsider, it sometimes appears as if the SWPers do little else. It must tie them up a lot.

by Mark P - Socialist Party (personal capacity) Fri Jul 13, 2007 17:27

Both free and paid for publications have their advantages. The Socialist Party, for instance, produces both kinds. A magazine with in depth articles, a paid for newspaper and a free paper which is distributed to upwards of 60,000 households in North and West Dublin. Each kind of publication has its own purpose and, resources permitting (and ours only barely permit) it is preferable to use them in combination. The much smaller Workers Solidarity Movement takes a similar approach with a free paper, with a print run last time I checked of 6,000 or so, and a paid for magazine.

Free publications are expensive to the organisation producing them, particularly if you produce them in significant numbers and if, like most radical papers, you don't carry advertising. This is quite a substantial burden over time as small radical groups tend to be pressed for resources at the best of times. On the positive side you can get much larger numbers of a free publication distributed, whether door to door or by dishing it out like a leaflet on demonstrations. On the downside I strongly suspect that most stuff which comes in the door unsolicited and for free goes straight in the bin or in the cat litter. So it's a question of percentages: We get out x times more publications but only y percent of them are ever read.

Paid publications also have their downsides. They tend to be bigger and more expensive to produce, so although, unlike freesheets, they have the potential to be financially self sustaining, they also necessitate that you do actually get out there and sell them. This involves time and energy - although it isn't as if freesheets go through doors by magic either. They also have smaller circulations, because people actually have to buy them. Their advantages are many however. They generally allow more space so that issues can be dealt with in more depth. When someone actually buys something they are more likely to actually read it. Also the act of talking to someone involved in selling them the paper is often as important as the sale itself - it gives you an opportunity to talk about socialist ideas and it gives the other person a chance to ask question or answer back with their own views which they don't get if the publication comes in through their door anonymously.

The Socialist Party, for instance, sells most of its papers door to door. These are not simply paper sales. Instead we go door to door in particular areas talking about a particular issue, anything from a schools shortage to the bin tax. If someone is interested, we will also ask if they would like to buy a paper. And because we go back to core estates month after month, people get used to you and those who are supportive will buy a paper regularly. This has a number of advantages. Our time isn't spent simply on a paper sale, instead the paper sale is a bonus to agitational work on a particular issue. Going back again and again helps develop a dialogue. And in my view people who have spoken to you, who have seen you around repeatedly and who actually buy something from you are a lot more likely to read it and think about it. Getting out our free paper on the other hand is essentially a leafletting session with a paper instead of a leaflet going through the door - more stuff shifted, much less interaction with people.

This thread is a bit depressing because of the people on both sides of the free v paid divide arguing as if one or other approach was the only reasonable approach. In fact both serve different and often complimentary roles. Freesheets are ideal for getting a basic message out to a broad audience. Paid publications are more useful for exploring issues in greater depth and also as a recruitment tool among narrower but more basically sympathetic audiences.

by MOD Fri Jul 13, 2007 18:27

"On the downside I strongly suspect that most stuff which comes in the door unsolicited and for free goes straight in the bin or in the cat litter. So it's a question of percentages: We get out x times more publications but only y percent of them are ever read."

It's true people value something they have paid for more than something given freely, as a rule. But maybe that's an example of a social attitude which these publications are tyring to challenge in the first place? Presentation is important as DC first said - the ISN are doing a great job of summarising the issues succinctly and having just received my copy of 'Resist' - it deserves praise for the originality of presentation and lively, incisive content - qualities which probably matter more than whether or not there is a cost involved?

by Mark P - Socialist Party (personal capacity) Fri Jul 13, 2007 19:01

I've yet to see the new ISN freesheet so I'm not in a position to comment on it's content or presentation. I gather from the thread above that it shares the same multi-folded format as Workers Solidarity, the format of which causes me some minor irritation whenever I read it but that's not much of a basis to write the thing off. You'll have to wait until I read it before I have anything to say about its merits.

On the other point you make, I think we agree that people tend to value something more if they have paid for it, but that wasn't the whole point I was making about stuff going directly from the door to the cat litter. I think people are more likely to read something, regardless of price, if they played some active role in the publication coming into their possession. For example:

Situation (A): Somebody approaches you and asks you if you would like a copy of a newspaper. You think about it for a second, answer yes, reach into your pocket and give them some money.

Situation (B): Along with the pizza leaflets and commercial freesheets inside your door, you see an extra small newspaper.

What seperates the two situations isn't just money changing hands. In the first example you have actively participated in the publication coming into your hands, indicating some level of interest however trivial. In the second example its just a different variation on the flow of unasked for stuff coming through your door. I think it is fairly clear that a much higher percentage of the publications in the first situation will end up being read. To get the same number of people to read something by the second method you have to distribute many more copies. In the freesheet example everyone in area regardless of their interest gets a copy through the door, while in the paid example the recipients filter themselves first.

That's not an argument against free publications. As I said above, I think that both free and paid publications can be useful, but to make best use of them we should understand their advantages and disadvantages.

As far as the ISN publication is concerned, I wonder if someone can fill me in on a few details:

1) How many are to be distributed?
2) How often is it to be produced?
3) How is it to be distributed - door to door, shops, demonstrations?
4) Who is the target audience?
5) What is the purpose of the paper - raise the ISN's profile in an area, make basic arguments for socialism to a wide audience, a vehicle for agitational material about particular issues, winning over potential new members?

by anon Fri Jul 13, 2007 19:15

I always read the free newspapers that come through the door - local and political.

by Happy to help Fri Jul 13, 2007 20:18

"You'll have to wait until I read it before I have anything to say about its merits."

A nation holds its breath .
But seriously to get a copy delivered to your door and for an answer to your questions you can always contact the ISN at irishsocialistnetwork@dublin.ie

by isn'er Fri Jul 13, 2007 21:57

Mark P, you ask if we see the paper as a way of convincing people to join the ISN? Err...yes, of course! We want to build the libertarian left nationally. The ISN clearly wants new branches and members everywhere.

We want to build a non-hierarchical revolutionary left movement that, while locating itself within the Marxist tradition, is open to working constructively with others on the left. We have a particularly good relationship with other left libertarian organisations, such as the WSM, and we want to consolidate that with continued practical co-operation.

by Mark P Fri Jul 13, 2007 22:44

Maybe I wasn't being clear enough. When I mentioned things like "raise the ISN's profile in an area, make basic arguments for socialism to a wide audience, a vehicle for agitational material about particular issues, winning over potential new members" and so on, I wasn't asking if you thought that they were desirable goals. I presumed that you think that all of these things are desirable! What I meant was that it is very difficult for a publication to do all of those things, and all of the other things we might ideally like to do with one, effectively. So most left publications have a focus on trying to do particular things well rather than everything poorly. To use the example of the WSM again, they have two different publications with very different content and very different formats:

Workers Solidarity is fired out to thousands of houses every couple of months. It contains short agitational articles about particular issues and some basic propaganda for socialism or anarchism. There is little in it aimed at existing activists. It isn't material which they would use to convince someone in their broad milieu to join them. It serves the purpose of making the WSM and its politics a bit better known in a couple of geographical areas.

Red and Black Revolution is sold on demonstrations and the like in smaller numbers. It covers issues and theory in much more depth. RaBR isn't supposed to make basic arguments for socialism, carry agitational news for a wider public or build up the profile of the WSM amongst the general public. Instead it is for their own membership and for other activists, clarifying ideas amongst people who are close to them presumably with an eye on recruitment.

Same organisation, but two different publications with two different purposes. I was wondering what role the ISN see for their publication in that sense.

by Still happy, still helping (I hope) Fri Jul 13, 2007 22:59

"I was wondering what role the ISN see for their publication in that sense."

We're still waiting until you decide upon its merits. It's a bit like first night on Broadway and waiting for the NYT review. Do hurry up and get a copy.

by Mark P Fri Jul 13, 2007 23:11

I'm glad to see that my words carry such weight with you. I'll be sure to give you a review only marginally longer than the paper itself. If you like I can eat the paper and then give you feedback in the form of a restaurant review.

by isn'er Fri Jul 13, 2007 23:14

Up to now, the ISN has focused its publications on issues directly related to the areas in which we are most active. In Finglas, for example, we do a door-to-door newsletter. We've just published a new newsletter for this area - a long print-run that will allow us to cover most of the area.

However, Resistance, the national paper, has a very different focus. It explains the (very different) political perspectives of the ISN to those who already see themselves as left or left-leaning, but also to those not already connected to the left.

We do want to persuade existing activists that the ISN is an organisation worth joining. Nevertheless, the reality is that leftworld is very small in Ireland. We've printed several thousand copies of Resistance, so we have no intention of distributing that entirely within a sort of left ghetto. Not at all. Our publications are always aimed at developing the constituency (non-electoral :) for socialist ideas within working class areas.

by isn'er Fri Jul 13, 2007 23:20

Only saw Mark P's last remark after posting my 'partial answer'. Very sad actually. I quite like the SP and get along very well with their members.

by Happy Clappy Smiley Sat Jul 14, 2007 00:09

"If you like I can eat the paper and then give you feedback in the form of a restaurant review."

Sure why not, do what you've got to do. But it won't be published in Resistance. We might forward it on to 'Bar Review'. A good read none the less.

by Mark P Sat Jul 14, 2007 01:55

I'm not quite sure what you are sad about, but thanks for the partial answer, isner.

by Sir Ken Sat Jul 14, 2007 02:38

Some interesting comments by 'historian' and 'real historian' about former and existing left papers. Most interesting commentary by Mark P, who has the decency to identify his membership of SP, about how his colleagues get their papers around. Somebody remarked, however, that paper sales/free distributions don't necessarily reflect public acceptance of the contents or support for the groups promoting the publications. This reminds me of my student days (been through the university grindmill myself) when members of the York Street -based Salvation Army used to come around the pubs where us students drank our pints on Friday and Saturday nights. Many of us, including working men from the area, bought copies of the Sally Anne "War Cry" from these uniformed sellers largely as an expression of sympathy with the social welfare work of the sally anners, and not as any intention to amend our drinking lifestyles, sell our worldly goods and enlist in the Lord's army.
I've sold (non-party) campaigning literature around selected pubs in central Dubland myself, and know what a painstaking rugby scrum it can be, winding your body nimbly around the bustling bodies of beer drinkers having a good night out. Selling five copies in one pub could lift my spirits; being told by the head barman to skedaddle was the pits. I've really no idea whether pubgoers were ever affected by the contents of the publication.
Has anybody written a history of Irish left and/or republican publications? Somebody did a thesis some years ago about one publication of the 1930s, the title of which eludes memory. Drinking pints in the long run reduces memorisation capacity.

by mickb Sat Jul 14, 2007 14:43

I haven't seen the paper yet but am looking forward to reading it . If it's as well turned out as the ISN website ,it should be definitely worth reading. Good luck with it.

by isn'er Sun Jul 15, 2007 22:12

I was sad because I thought you were trying to be a smartass rather than constructive. On reflection, perhaps I misinterpreted.

In general, though, it never ceases to amaze me how competitive left-wing groups are, when, ironically, we're all in the business of promoting a new world based on co-operation rather than competition. Undoubtedly, there are important political differences between the ISN, SP, SWP and WSM, but at the end of the day we also have much in common. We won't always agree but we should still try to foster goodwill and some level of co-operation.