Another NATO warship heading for Cork

by skuttled Mon Apr 07, 2008 21:21

You'd cause as much offence to both our German friends and native local post-Irving Corkonian population as Basil Fawlty goosestepping through Fawltey towers.

"battle of the river plate" (1956) was a great movie though. For as noted in departed from the general approach by treating the crew of the Nazi battleship which skuttled herself in a neutral port as honourable seafaring ableseamen and officers rather than the piklhaube (point helmet) hun and fraternity cheek scarred stereotypes which had predominated in war movies before. Indeed, the movie marked a watershed in wider cultural portrayal of the german war machine and not just its navy which perhaps might be considered along aside the acceptance of the western German state into NATO in 1955 the year previous to the movie, the year in which indeed the state was permitted to reconstitute its armed forces including the navy which is about to visit Cork.

The long path for the German military traditions to be considered normal and completely distinct from that of the Nazi era had begun. It would take almost 50 years before German troops could serve outside their state though.

So - whatever you do, don't mention the Graf Spree. Talk about Charlton Heston instead.
;-)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_pocket_battleship_A..._Spee
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Battle_of_the_River_Pl...lm%29

by Sceptic Mon Apr 07, 2008 21:31

These are reciprocal courtesy visits – Irish naval service ships travel widely too and have done for many decades. It has nothing to do with NATO or Afghanistan or anything of that type. Making an issue out of it smacks of publicity seeking for its own sake on the most flimsy of grounds. Some seem to take the view that there is something wrong in itself with States having a naval service. In fact they are an essential service for sovereign States with a coastline such as Belgium and Germany.

by scuttled - (my ancestor was a pirate & sunk boats & raped sailors) Mon Apr 07, 2008 22:14

As you opine an important part of state sovreignty is the keeping of armed forces. As I once explained to the readership, holding a navy can be so important that centuries after losing its acess to the Pacific Ocean the state of Bolivia still keeps an admiral & navy. Curiously enough its flagship sails up and down the River Plate to this day where the Graf Spee scuttled herself on the other side of the continent.

The allowance made by the allies to both Japan and Germany to recreate their armed forces yet disallow them from extra-territorial engagement was an international status quo which within forty years had lost its urgency. Then in the final symbolic ends of both former WW2 aggressors we see illustrated well the little point I want to make. The Japanese army saw its first overseas adventure in Iraq, having been coaxed by Bush into the coalition of the willing. One of the five principles of his now utterly discredited doctrine was the democracy could be introduced (or imposed) through preventative military action. Those ideas seemed to based on notions of gentlemanly officer honour (which I highlighted played a role in the movie portayal of the Graf Spree crew) and which in the case of the coalition of the willing lasted no longer than Abu Ghraib. The German public now thanks to "Speigel" are learning how their armed forces contributed to the falsehood which allowed for a premptive invasion & in true unequivocal & frank words - an illegal war of aggression & invasion.

Without peppering my comment (& engagement [nay fond] with you) with too many indulgent personal asides, I'd like to tell you about the father of an ex-girlfriend who served at the NATO signals and military intelligence HQ in The Netherlands as an officer of the post-war democratic state. He retired in the mid 90's. The family never lost an opportunity to talk up their honourable commitment to peace, democracy, liberty & in short the good things & reasons for continuing a militarist & officer tradition which stretched back beyond the Prussians & Hussars . Their notion of NATO was that notion which many Irish now share in their promotion of active Irish involvement with NATO rather than giving UN led missions priority. I would suggest that change in thinking on the question "why do we have armed services" and who ought deploy them also owes something to the discredited Bush five doctrines of "an indepedent US free to act without international instruments of abritration or law".

but and this is a sad but - that same family never really talked up the role of that daddy's dad during the third Reich except to use the horribly wan phrase "he kept his hands clean". It was odd because he had been charged with the task of assessing grain production in that area of the Ukraine designated as the eastern Reich once the war had been finished. He must have his hands dirty somehow, the millions of hectares of black earth which were to feed a victorious nazi empire and had at times fed (& through mismanagement starved) a russian and soviet empire are very dirty.

It is a great movie. "Battle of the River Plate" isn't it?

These are two recent articles in English translation from the German current affairs magazine "Spiegel" on the role it alledges its military intelligence played in faking the WMD story once that lie had been started in Rumsfeld's Pentagon & spiced by the British establishment.

German Intelligence Was 'Dishonest, Unprofessional and Irresponsible'

David Kay was charged by the Bush administration with finding weapons of mass destruction in Iraq after the invasion. Instead of finding weapons, though, he found what he told SPIEGEL was 'the biggest intelligence fiasco of my lifetime.' :-
http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,542888....html

How German Intelligence Helped Justify the US Invasion of Iraq
By Erich Follath, John Goetz, Marcel Rosenbach and Holger Stark

Five years ago, the US government presented what it said was proof that Iraq harbored biological weapons. The information came from a source developed by German intelligence -- and it turned out to be disastrously wrong. But to this day, Germany denies any responsibility.
http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,542840....html


& thus a peaceful army helped bring the Iraq war. That's good enough reason to explain the "Graf Spee" & say no to any warship in Irish ports.

by Sceptic Tue Apr 08, 2008 12:25

I am not sure what the Graff Spee or the other matters you mentioned constitute a reason why anyone should object to a German naval ship visiting Cork. It’s all a bit of a non sequitur. This is 2008 not the Third Reich period and attempts to draw parallels with that period and now are not convincing. Just as most States will have a naval service so they will also have an intelligence service of some sort. That Germany should share its intelligence with its allies is to be expected. That the German intelligence got it wrong on Iraqi WMD is not evidence of moral turpitude – it shows how difficult it was to get it right in the circumstances. It also shows that the US and UK intelligence services were not along among those professional bodies who got it wrong. It’s an inexact science by definition. Also one cannot blame the intelligence services for the use to which their intelligence is put. That is a matter for their political masters alone.

Going down all kinds of historical and political highways and byways is interesting but it in no way makes a case for making an issue about a courtesy visit from a vessel of the German naval service to Cork.

by paul o toole Tue Apr 08, 2008 14:09

Of course there are parallells with the present and the past. The road from the Third Reidh to the Fourth, Facism to bush is a straight line. Dont mind the new costumes and theme music, or the new diplomacy of 'war of choice' or preventative measures'.
The notion of the 'intelligence being wrong' is a rediculous notion. The intelligence was right but with Alister Cambell and Donald Rumsfeld interpreting what the CIA and Mi6 were saying you can bet that their interpretation leans twords justification for attacking Iraq which was their plan all along, before 911.
The man on the ground had it right. He was a week away from publishing his findings which the bottom line was going to say.....'If I was to quantify Iraqs threat to the west now , I would say Zero...' THat was Scott Ritter, UN weapons inspector UNSCOM.
Those who diddnt listen to him and adhere what he had to say within the UN are guilty of perverting Democracy and Ju8stice.
JUst like the Galway air Show, this is not a 'visit' it is subtly manufacturing concent and acclimating us to the future 40 years of war to destroy the Middle-East, started with an un provolked attack on a country blown back to the stone age in 1991, disarmed twice and then attacked by the most powerful cowards on earth.
Send this warship home.

by Devils Advocate Tue Apr 08, 2008 15:53

This naval vessel and crew represents the German state and people. To tell them to go home and refuse them into an Irish post would be a disgrace. If we do this would we also deport the German ambasador and staff are they not part of the same German state that you mention. Germany is our EU partner. This ship is not shelling Cobh not attacking Irish shipping. How would you feel if an Irish Naval ship was refused permission to dock in Germany or United Kingdom. Would you not agree that it is better to engage with our EU partners and discuss our concerns over Iraq etc and let them know how we feel and seek the withdrawal of troops from such places rather than slam the door if the face of debate. i respect your views but do not agree with them. The German military represents the German state. We might not agree with them on all issues but rudeness and refusing permission for them to dock is not the answer. DO they plan to invade from this ship??? i doubt it. Some people who contribute to this board seem to want ireland to withdraw from International affairs. Irish troops serve in Afganistan in small numbers but we do have a military presence there as part of a UN/EU mission. Should other countries refuse entry to Irish naval ships because of this??

by Sceptic Tue Apr 08, 2008 16:11

The stuff about the line from fascism to Bush being a straight one is pure assertion and would not withstand informed scrutiny. Critics of President Bush devalue their arguments when they are so fast to reach for the fascist or Nazi label.

For one thing the two systems, American democracy and German National Socialism were highly and mutually antagonist to each other. The two systems did not resemble each other in their treatment of internal critics nor in external belligerence. In most if not every respect they were opposites of each other. The US gave refuge to numerous people fleeing Nazi Europe and sacrificed 150,000 of its men to putting down that regime which was a priority even above that of Japan which had actually attacked the US.

I presume you are also objecting to the Belgian ship – will you be going back to King Leopold to make your arguments against that?

Conflating the Iraqi war each with every piece of military hardware however benign and innocuous is invalid and imputes an unfounded military purity to Irish people and Ireland as a whole - "No foreign naval vessels in our ports etc." We are often grateful enough for British military assistance in air sea rescues and the like. Even if there was no Iraq there would still be a need for naval services and still a role for routine contacts between the naval services of various neighbouring and friendly States.

by scuttled Tue Apr 08, 2008 23:08

& part of a strategem opposed to bringing Ireland further under the NATO command structures, then any argument being made contrary to such a strategem is akin to saying "the Iraq war & the responsiblity played by NATO partners in subverting international law & the instruments of international abritration at the behest of a US presidency happened a long time ago & we have now learnt that we made mistakes & will thus trust a US led united foreign military policy of intervention & pre-emptive invasion from now on".

or even shorter -

The milky blood of Iraqi innocents has been spilt and the honour of European peace keeping armed forces has been so tarnished we can't cry anymore.

I wonder why the German establishment therefore is so keen to see its government come clean on the role played by its military intelligence in faking WMD reports. I wonder what importance can we give to the latest "Pew international" annual survey of foreign perception of the USA which has indicated German support for the USA at its lowest at any stage in history.

Do contributors to this site really think the Iraq war doesn't matter anymore? Do they really think we should let bygones be bygones? Do they really think the last & most resounding proof of the irresponsibility and dishonour of NATO in the role its members (including Germany) played in an illegal war of aggression are so unimportant as not to prompt protest or provoke further articulation of the anti-NATO platform in Ireland?

Perhaps they do.

Good for them, their short memories, long on selective omission and forgiveness and self-criticism, will ensure many more dirty wars in the future in which other Irish men and women sa members of armed forces will serve a role.

Opposition to NATO & insistence on the continued examination of the criminal acts which led to military engagement by the western alliance is neither unpatriotic nor undignified. To the contrary it is the prerequisite of any society which wishes to :-
* keep peace.
* spread liberty.
* introduce & foster democracy.
* protect the common interests of human civilisation.

As part of that strategem & for those noble reasons, you ought protest the visit of a German warship to the port of Cork & demand the German government heed its principle current affairs magazine "Speigel" and tell the truth about the role it played in "operation curveball". http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,542840....html

There are many Germans who will thank you for it.

by Sceptic Wed Apr 09, 2008 17:24

The visit of the German naval vessel is not connected with Iraq in any way. Efforts to link the two are entirely spurious particularly as the then German Government opposed the Iraqi intervention in 2003.