Dublin solidarity march with Gaza

by Leann Sherman Thu Jun 19, 2008 12:24

I fail to understand why the good people of Ireland aren't staging protests against the Arab/Muslim countries that commit such atrocities as beheading "infidels," stoning women who show their faces in public, or inflicting 40 lashes on school teachers who would dare name a stuffed animal Muhammed.

by too lazy for anarchy Thu May 08, 2008 00:26

a bit off the subject but:
there was an Israeli hardcore punk band called DIR YASSIN a few years ago, obviously named after the massacre.
there was a discography of them released which should still be available.
not surprisingly most of their excellent lyrics dealt with the conflict and were the strongest part of a very good band. i think it's important to know people like them exist.

by Abu Saleh - None Wed May 07, 2008 01:50

Dont be fooled. Wikipedia is a right wing Zionist resource.

" What if they decided to pursue the Arab-Israeli conflict by other means? Inevitably, it would take place on the Internet. And inevitably Wikipedia would be involved."

http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article9518.shtml

This EI article is very lame and fails to highlight the ongoing nature of pro-Israel lobbying on Wikipedia that preceded this current scandal.
Its obvious even from whats posted in this thread that Wikipedia is a complete safe haven for Zionist propagandists. Wikipedia is now and It will continue to be utterly biased.

All Wikipeida articles relating to the Palestinian issue should be locked and sent out to proper, learned, intellectuals such as Chomsky, Finkelstein, Fisk etc. for an over view.

I bet the verdict would be damning indeed.

by Sickened Woman. Tue Apr 29, 2008 16:56

A picture showing the settlers as they redeem the land in the name of God and Judaeism.

http://www.imemc.org/attachments/apr2008/hebron.settler...s.jpg

by witness Mon Apr 28, 2008 10:10

Israel's response to the ongoing Palestinian and Egyptian efforts to bring about conditions for a truce came yesterday in the besieged Gaza Strip.

" Dr.Mo'awiya Abu Hasanin, chief of emergency and ambulance department at Gaza's health ministry, confirmed that the four children and their mother were from the Moatiq family. The slain children were identified as Ahmed Abu Moatiq, 1 year old, Hanna, 3, Saleh, 4, Rodaina, 6."

http://www.imemc.org/article/54514

Israel reaches into Gaza and snuffs out another family in the night. This is the true meaning of terrorism. Terrorists bent on wrecking any shred of negotiating going on anywhere between any two parties. Israeli colony projects require violence without end in order that they may continue apace.

Homemade Rockets were fired towads Israel in response.

by Reporter 12 Fri Apr 25, 2008 17:04

The proof of the Pudding is alway in the eating and once again Folks, we should be in no doubt as to who the agressor is at every stage in this conflict. Israel is never the one offering truce only refusing always pressing ahead with sieges, airstrikes, kidnappings then crying to the US and EU when rockets are fired from Gaza in response. Now Israel officially rejected on Friday an offer made by the Islamic Resistance Movement, Hamas, for a six month truce in the Gaza Strip.

http://www.imemc.org/article/54463

This disgraceful outcome to lengthy negotiations in good faith to make some progress between Hamas and Egypt ensures that Hamas again has no choice but to consider all options on how to break the siege that is bringing death and malnutrition to the people of the Gaza Strip.

http://www.imemc.org/article/54457

Hamas political leader, Mahmoud Zahhar, stated on Thursday that the movement would accept a truce in Gaza under a national agreement, and added that this truce should be extended later on to the West Bank. Hamas offered to halt cross-border rocket attacks if Israel opened crossing points into the Gaza strip and ended military incursions. This is quite unprecedented that Hamas would accept a truce without the West Bank being simultaneously included. It shows the progress that was made in the negotiations with Egypt and that Hamas are flexible and desparate to gain security for its people. And it starkly contrasts with Israeli intentions to perpetrate a land expropriation war in the West Bank under the cover of bambardment at the expense of Gaza people with no regard for the lives of it's own soldiers and the people of Israel.

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/15BD2436-6CF9-48...2.htm

by Mr. Man Thu Apr 24, 2008 05:31

This is exactly why you can't use wikipedia as a reference in serious debate, as it is intrinsically unreliable. It's like relying on a radical left wing website to give you impartial information. If you are just a moniker on a website you have no personal integrity to lose. Thus the value of conventional print media, as the authors have real names with careers in giving reliable information, of which can be tarnished if it is revealed to be purpously skewing the facts.

by Jackie Chan Wed Apr 23, 2008 19:29

This really is unbelievable stuff.

I went onto Wikipedia " Violence in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict " page and started reading down through the accounts of violence in order to check you claim that they were not being fair. It did strike me that the violence seemed to be evenly apportioned to both sides, consistently. A Palestinian militant gets killed - an Israeli gets wounded in a qassam attack etc. etc. it went on tit for tat. I went to the "Violence in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict - 2008 " page and looked at late February. Here is what it reported and Nothing else appears until the End of March.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violence_in_the_Israeli-Pa..._2008

February 27

Israeli aircraft fire missiles at a van and another vehicle that were moving on the coastal line of Gaza. Five Hamas militants were killed in the attack. Israeli Security forces stated that the militants were busy training for a large scale militants attack when they were hit.
Over 46 Qassam rockets are fired by palestinian militants at the Western Negev, many of them hit the City of Ashkelon and the Town of Sderot amoung other towns and villages in the area. One of the rockets that landed in a parking lot at the Sapir College killed 47 year old student Ronni Yechia. Another rocket had a direct hit at a factory lunch-room, the room was destroyed. The factory owner, Yossi Chugi, said: "A lot of damage has been done here. It is a miracale that tens of people weren't killed here today, if it would have hit during lunch time it would have been a disaster."
After a meeting with Israeli Prime Minester Ahud Olmert in Tokyo, U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said that "We were all sorry about the death of the Israeli university student and affirmed to him (Olmert) that we will continue to state clearly that the rocket attacks against Israel need to stop,"

Now this is a report from Electronic Intafada on the 3rd March :

http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article9360.shtml

"Air and land bombardments have killed 101 Palestinians since 27 February, and injured hundreds of others......During the last 24 hours, another 39 Palestinians were killed throughout the Gaza Strip. Twenty-two of them were unarmed civilians, including nine children. Six of the victims were from one family, including three women and three men who were killed in an air strike in Gaza City. The death toll since 27 February currently stands at 101 victims, including 49 unarmed civilians. The civilians who have been killed include 25 children and five women. In addition, more than 250 other people have been injured, mostly unarmed civilians. IOF have also destroyed houses and property across the Gaza Strip."

by the digger Wed Apr 23, 2008 15:43

How long before someone starts quoting the Protocols of the Elders of Zion as a reliable source?

by Vinnie Wed Apr 23, 2008 14:53

Another "information" source that should never be trusted in relation to opinion forming within the Israel/Palestine discussion is Wikipedia. Already that site is polluted with clever and convoluted distortions of simple facts and events. It is consistently but very subtley pro-Israel in its considerations and regularly uses suggestive or emotive language to convey it's bias.

Now CAMERA are going to take it over by subterfuge and use it as a propaganda outlet.

http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article9474.shtml

" A pro-Israel pressure group is orchestrating a secret, long-term campaign to infiltrate the popular online encyclopedia Wikipedia to rewrite Palestinian history, pass off crude propaganda as fact, and take over Wikipedia administrative structures to ensure these changes go either undetected or unchallenged. "

by Vinnie Wed Apr 23, 2008 13:11

Socialist,

You should be careful when posting Jerusalem Post articles. The Jerusalem Post is not the kind of place where people should go to if they want to get information in order to form a reasonable opiinion. This article is typically skewed, sensationalist and with a strong anti arab undertone and fails to deal with the core issue in anyway at all. The fact that as a prisoner of war Schalit has no right to expect to be released before then end of hostilities. combined with the unfortunate reality that Israel has ignored Palestinian offers to release him in exchange for their demands is the reason why he still remains imprisoned.

Jerusalem Post articles article should come with a consumer advice :

WARNING : May contain facts.

by Socialist Wed Apr 23, 2008 11:27

You can read an interesting article in The Jerusalem Post which deals with some of the latest info on the "negotiations" around a ceasefire and the captivity of Gilad Schalit,

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=120842265164...wFull

by Pro or con? Tue Apr 22, 2008 21:07

http://admin2.7.forumer.com/viewtopic.php?t=8844

by Vinnie Tue Apr 22, 2008 15:05

Jonny and David,

I don't mean to sound self righteous but if I do then thats not the end of the world and it is also irrelevant to the Palestinian situation.
Three points you made Jonny in relation to violent resistance;

a.) they solidify Israeli public opinion against a negotiated settlement;

I Dont see that as true.

b.) they encourage an Israeli military response (usually an over-the-top response)

If and when the Israelis run out of things to "respond" to they just attack anyway to agitate the situation. They did this quite recently in the West bank when in a time of calm they murdered four activists at the side of the street. They are dpoing it now heaping atrocity after atrocity in indescriminate attacks in Gaza. This is not an argument as the Israeli will attack , no matter what the Palestinians do.

c.) it leads to more dead Israeli and Palestinian civilians

No, just dead Palestinians almost all of the time.

The tone of your post was patronising , like it or not, although you have now made it obvious that you are a supporter of the Palestinian struggle and declare that we should all support it as a way of strengthening the case for international human rights.

It is howver my opinion that this is not a cycle of violence but a wave of one sided slaughters and atrocities and their should be no comparisons , either real of alluded to in relaiton to this. The call to stop the violence should unanimously be levelled at Israel and the US as that is where the violence stems from in this conflict.

Israel must cease violent attacks in Gaza a and lift the siege an restore basic human living conditions immediately. Without this there should be no truce and no ceasefire and we have no right to bring any pressure on the Palestinians to do so.
The pressure goes on Israel not palestinians. Full Stop !

by David L - IPSC (personal capacity) Tue Apr 22, 2008 13:07

Firstly, I think its stupid to demonise ‘radical Jonny’ because he wants to debate the use of violence. He clearly supports Palestinian rights; surely it should be possible for others to disagree with him without implying that he’s a racist neocon!

In fact, within Palestine there is a huge debate about the use and purpose of violence – they are well aware that all violence will blow back on them and have thought about it a good deal. So I’d disagree (politely) with his characterisation of the use of violence as being some crazy folks trying to let off steam.

The main tactical argument used in favour of violence – put into a nutshell, is that Israel is the occupation and it will only negotiate in order to extend it. For instance, if there were no violence from Gaza, there would still be a wall around it; Gazans would still be starved. The only difference is that the rest of the world wouldn’t notice, and there'd be no pressure on israel to end the siege.

The argument goes that it’s only the violence (such as the capture of Shalit, or the ambush on the three Israeli soldiers last week) that makes Palestinian suffering an issue. It is only this instability which will put pressure on Israel to give meaningful concessions.

This argument is supported by the experience of the West Bank since Fatah took power last year. While armed resistance against the occupier has ceased, the occupation has only got deeper – more roadblocks, more settlements and so on.

I’m pretty sure that Palestinians would use non-violent means if they thought it worked. But they are understandably cynical. Such resistance usually only work if it is given effective outside support – if it manages to evoke solidarity abroad, and shame in the oppressor society.

For instance, a month or two ago, there was a protest where thousands marched to the Wall in Gaza – totally peaceful. As they approached the Wall, the massed Israeli soldiers told them if they came any closer, they’d shoot. The march disbanded, believing that if they didn’t
a. The Israelis would shoot
b. The world wouldn’t care.

The question is – were they wrong?

by Reporter 12 Tue Apr 22, 2008 11:25

Ay... here ye go Jonny & Co. ,

http://www.imemc.org/article/54377

"Rice told reporters in the Bahrini capital of Manama, following meetings with foreign ministers of Gulf states, Egypt, Jordan and Iraq, that Hamas should release the captured Israeli soldier Gil'ad Shalit, stop homemade shells fire onto Israeli towns and renounce control of the Gaza Strip. "

Whats wrong with this picture ?

No mention of the 11000 prisoners held by Israeli, hundreds women and children included. Many kidnapped in the middle of the night from their beds or abducted at checkpoints. Taken away and lost in a system of prisons that openly condone the use of torture. Held and tortured without trial sometimes mamed or murdered in captivity.

No No No ... Give back Shalit, before we will talk to you. Ghilad Shalit , A soldier of the occupying army, captured and held by a commando squad of trained Palestinians fighters from a tank crew that was engaged in the sheling of civilian areas of Gaza.

And what else ? Renounce control of the Gaza Strip . The land that they were elected to govern by the people who live there and that the American Bush maniacs are now proven to have been secretly trying to murder and overthrow by funding terrorists in Gaza.

You must love this type of stuff , Jonny and Co. One sided, racist , necocon propaganda.

by radical jonny Tue Apr 22, 2008 11:24

Vinnie,

I certainly didn't mean to sound patronizing... I hope you don't mean to sound as self-righteous as you are coming across... Learn to accept disagreement with grace.

You make a very valid point: simple existence in the face of oppression is indeed a form of resistance. I'm thinking of a line from African American poet Langston Hughes:

"They send me to eat in the kitchen when company comes,

But I laugh, and eat well, and grow strong.

Tomorrow, I'll be at the table When company comes."

I'm not indifferent to Palestinian suffering. I've not been into Gaza, but I've been into the West Bank. Most of my time was in Bethlehem and Hebron. Granted, only for three weeks, but I've seen what the occupation has done and continues to do to.

I understand where the desire to inflict pain comes from, though I haven't experienced it personally. I also understand the appeal of vengeance. I have met many of the men you talk about, those who've had their homes destroyed, brothers imprisoned, family shot. Some have taken up arms, some haven't. Both avenues are entirely justified.

There's a choice to be made: you either look at the situation and those who are responding with (take a deep breath, now...) a level of force completely ineffective to the task at hand and say, 'you know, you're right. Whack away, lads,' or you regroup and explore other options.

I want the Palestinians to win. Not survive; win. Because if they win, everybody wins. Right now, they're not winning.

But I've got an idea how they might.

by Vinnie Tue Apr 22, 2008 10:11

I find the tone of your post deeply patronising, Jonny.

Not to me, as I dont have to suffer the pain of the occupation and then listen to cosseted westerners waffle on about peaceful direct action, resistance. But the tone is offensive to the millions of Palestinians who peacefully resist the occupation 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, for the last 60 years and get absolutely no recognition from people like you.
The proud defiance that gives them the courage to dress another son or daughter for a day in a crumbling bombarded school on the far side of ten checkpoints. The humiliation and terror of taking their kids past gangs of rabid settler thugs, who have set up camp on their doorsteps, then past the ultraviolent occupation soldiers who are itching to beat and murder at the drop of a hat.
Why? to possibly make it into a classroom where there are no books copies, pens, water or sanitation and that at any given moment could be blown to smithereens by any one of the hundreds of indiscriminate shell, missiles and bullets fired around the neighbourhood by the morally obnoxious terrorists that hide behind a soldier's uniform and provoke violence 24 hours a day.

You call it "a cycle of violence " but that only highlights your indifference to Palestinians suffering. Its a one-way onslaught every single day of the week against a practially defensless civilian society by a massive military beast capable of taking on Europe militarily. Thats no Cycle , thats slaughter, Jonny.

Some bunch of lads who have sufferd imprisonnment, torture, murder, starvation, at the hands of these monsters and most probably the murders of their fathers, brothers and sisters or kids, They go out into the field armed with rifles and home made rockets to try and mkae a mark against the regime that brings this nightmare to them and up jumps Jonny and Co. to condemn them.

You have no right to judge their actions . Go away and judge yourself for ignoring the daily wave of silent resistance of the mother fathers and children who face this nightmare head on every single day.

by gordi Tue Apr 22, 2008 02:57

Had the Palestinians wanted the end of the occupation, they'd attack Israel from the west bank, but be totaly peacefull in Gaza, where the Israelis allready took out. Fact is - they attack Israel mainly from Gaza, and do it more and more since the evacuation - a fact that reduce the chances the Israelis will evacuate any other area.

by radical jonny Mon Apr 21, 2008 23:07

Vinnie,

Normal Bloke (with no middle name) makes a valid point. It is quite possible to be critical of those Palestinians who respond to violence with violence. No need to invoke the 'z' word.

It would appear that the rocket attacks on Israel from Gaza are an act of principled defiance rather than a tactical military operation, since they don't significantly weaken the Israeli military to force them to withdraw or negotiate. On the contrary, it can be argued that they result in a number of ends: a.) they solidify Israeli public opinion against a negotiated settlement; b.) they encourage an Israeli military response (usually an over-the-top response); c.) it leads to more dead Israeli and Palestinian civilians, the death of neither of whom causes significant outrage in Israeli public opinion to force a political change of course.

In light of these arguments, it is fair to ask whether symbolic defiance is getting the cause of the Palestinians- which is a very credible cause- anywhere. In such a situation, I'd argue that the cycle of violence has become the chief obstacle to a negotiated settlement.

Israel has shown themselves to be unable (or more probably unwilling) to end the violence from its own end, since the occupation is violence in and of itself. That puts the ball in the Palestinian end.

I believe that a nonviolent direct action points a way forward. There are a couple of Palestinian groups (and Israelis opposed to the occupation) who are exploring this avenue. Not enough, in my mind, mostly because nonviolent direct action is so often slandered as weakness, capitulation, or just ineffective (let's face it, guns and other military hardware just looks like a sexier option). On the contrary, it takes more bravery, more creativity, and more solidarity than violence.

Someone once said that the definition of madness is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. Could not this definition be used for those in Gaza who say, 'maybe THIS is the rocket that will force an end to the occupation'? Could it not also be used for those who say, 'perhaps THIS is the air strike that will finally shut down the Palestinian resistance'?

There's room to explore other options. Here's some interesting stuff:

www.sabeel.org

www.holylandtrust.org.

by Vinnie Mon Apr 21, 2008 14:22

normal zionist bloke,

Youre no different than any other pro israeli propagandist.

You call on the Palestinians to ceasefire but not the ones's who are doing all the killing - The Israeli army.

Hypocrisy !

by normal bloke Mon Apr 21, 2008 13:28

I liked the IPSC banner which reads: "You can always claim you didn't know". Well of course we all know about the Israeli bombings.

But what can we do? The EU has helped Gaza with supplies. The hundreds of rockets launched from Gaza into Israel since January 1st give the Israelis their excuse to go in.

You would have to say that the rocket launching is done to invite over-retaliation, to score points in the media. I know this method "worked" here in 1916, but civilians pay a high price. At the end of the day, the EU can't help unless the Palestinian groups first adopt a cease-fire and get on with the day to day management of their areas. And I wish them well in this.

by Kev - IPSC (pers cap) Mon Apr 21, 2008 11:53 info at ipsc dot ie

Photos taken by various IPSC people (2), plus the IPSC press releases from the event:

IPSC demonstration 'Remember Deir Yassin. Remember the people of Gaza today'

On Saturday, at an Ireland Palestine Solidarity Campaign demonstration in Dublin, the chair of IPSC, Marie Crawley asked the crowd of five hundred people to remember the Deir Yassin massacre of 1948, and to remember the people of Gaza who are being 'collectively punished' today.

She called upon the Irish government and the EU to act, stating 'It is past time the EU activated the human rights clause in the Euro Med agreement. There is no logical reason why the Euro-Med agreement which gives Israel privileged trade status shouldn't be suspended. MEPs and human rights activists in Ireland and across Europe have called for its suspension.' Recalling the massacre of Deir Yassin 60 years ago she stated, 'We can't stop yesterday's atrocities; we must prevent today's.'

The demonstration commemorated the Nakba – the ethnic cleansing of Palestine which led to the establishment of the exclusivist state of Israel. It linked the most infamous massacre of 1948 – Deir Yassin where around 120 people were killed, with the 'collective punishment' endured by the people of Gaza today. Last month alone, over 120 people were killed in Gaza.

Although it was pouring rain, the march was attended by five hundred people. Speaking at the demonstration were Senator David Norris, Michael D Higgins T.D., Mary Lou McDonald MEP, Eamonn McCann, Mags O'Brien (Trade Union Friends of Palestine) and Dr. Bassam Nassar (Palestinian Community in Ireland)

A statement was read out from Jim Higgins, Fine Gael MEP where he demanded that the European Union invoke the human rights clauses included in the Euro-Med agreements. He said that this must be done in an effort to curb human rights abuses carried out by Israel.

'Wake up Ireland!'

Afterwards there was a press conference and public meeting of about 100 people. Speaking there were Treasa Ni Cheannabhain, the IPSC activist recently returned from imprisonment in Gaza. In addition there was a link with Palestinian journalists in Gaza Samah Habeeb, Sami Abusalim who described the appalling conditions people faced in Gaza. They explained about the food shortages and the lack of medical supplies in Gaza.

Sami Abusalim told the audience 'People need to be aware of the situation and shake off their apathy. Wake up Ireland! Whatever about other European countries, Irish people have experienced oppression, and understand its nature. The people of Gaza are suffering and we are asking you - what you doing about it?'

ENDS

===========

Irish MEP Higgins demands EU invoke human rights clauses in Israeli-EU agreement

In a statement read out at Saturday's IPSC demonstration to commemorate the Nakba and show solidarity with the people of Gaza, Member of the European Parliament Jim Higgins (Fine Gael Party) demanded that the European Union invoke the human rights clauses included in the Euro-Med agreements. He said that this must be done in an effort to curb human rights abuses carried out by Israel in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and to improve the situation of the Palestinian people.

"The Euro-Med agreements apply to 9 North African and Middle Eastern States, including Israel and the Palestinian Authority. One common theme that all the agreements have is a respect for human rights and democracy. The European Commission have indicated from questions that I submitted that;"

'In the event of substantial violations of human rights, the agreements enable one party to the Agreement to take appropriate measures against the other party in proportion to the gravity of breaches.'

"Based upon this response I immediately asked the European Commission to take proportianate action in reponse to the substantial and ongoing human rights abuses perpetrated by the Israeli Government against the Palestinian People."

"Their response also shows that they have not even created a subcommittee to examine human rights abususes as they have done in Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, Morocco and Tunisia. I have now demanded a subcommittee be established immediately to begin monitoring and reporting on human rights abuses directly to the European Union institutions. If the European Union is serious about the human rights clauses in these agreements it most invoke them, and it must invoke them now."

"I am confident with the support of my Irish MEP colleagues we will continue at European Level to put pressure on the European Union to act, and act effectively to end the ongoing human rights abuses in Palestine perpetrated by the Israeli forces. It is time the European Union stopped talking about human rights and started protecting human rights."

ENDS

by Kev - IPSC (pers cap) Mon Apr 21, 2008 11:42 info at ipsc dot ie

Photos taken by various IPSC people

by me Wed Apr 16, 2008 23:06

it is a hezalbola flag sorry about spelling
it is more of a hatred of israel
more than palestine rememberance
because they attacked palestine last year

by Old school Tue Apr 15, 2008 15:05

It's actually a GAA Club flag. One of the border county clubs I think.

by socialist Mon Apr 14, 2008 17:40

why the hezbollah flag?

my enemies enemy doesn't much like me ;)
'we're only 'left' at home.

by Writer for a better world Sun Apr 13, 2008 18:48

The Alternative Information Center (AIC) calls on those who are working for social justice, along with Palestine solidarity groups from around the world to contact the participating authors, particularly those from their home countries, and encourage them to boycott this event in solidarity and support of a just peace for Palestinians and Israelis.

http://www.alternativenews.org/news/_english/_boycott-t....html

by Paula Geraghty Sun Apr 13, 2008 18:44

Images (c)