Thoughts on the programme of the new workers party the ULA is launching

by outspok Thu Apr 07, 2011 14:02

it shouldnt need saying but the central comittee of the ula should be elected by the wider members

by Prospective member - No organisation Fri Apr 08, 2011 15:04

This document proposes the release of "Republican prisoners". Most socialists consider the RIRA and CIRA to be simple criminals. They have no support in the socialist community, let alone in the broader community. It would be suicidal for the new party to adopt a programme that sought their release.

It would also be a gross insult to the victims of terrorism such as the families of the Omagh victims and the family of Constable Kerr, who was murdered at the weekend.

The new Party should recognise support for terrorism as a form of fascism and bar from membership those who support it or who seek to free those who engage in it. We should make no distinction between the supporters of terrorism and nazis.

by James Fri Apr 08, 2011 16:15

The issue of Northern Ireland has to be dealt with; at what level should be debated, but let's hope the ULA doesn't ignore the North, or avoid it, even on issues like Prisoners. As for Constable Kerr, it's not the job of socialists to sympathise with people who were ignorant or criminal enough to have joined the RUC. Let's not whitewash our history, or ignore the damage the RUC did, and are doing, to the working class of Northern Ireland.

by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite party Sat Apr 09, 2011 12:21

is that a green light then for targeting southern garda, politicians, media, civil servants and all us collaborators who speak the english language as our first tongue?The logic of your arguments seems to be tending towards the elimination of all and any who might have a slightly more nuanced definition of the condition of being 'Irish'.
And when you establish your gloden age of Irish republican splendour, by whom and how will it be policed? Will YOU be volunteering for that job?Or will it just consist of you and your nine buddies? Lets hope they all agree that you know best. Otherwise I wouldn't go starting any cars. And what if three of them are MI6 all along???rsvp.

by James Sat Apr 09, 2011 14:36

I didn't bring up Irishness, Kerr was as Irish as I am. I don't speak Irish, and don't see the Irish language as important in terms of nationality; and for that matter I don't regard nationality as important. I'm not advocating people target any civil servants, or target any public sector employees (or private sector employees for that matter). My point was that Kerr willingly joined an organisation that has brutalised the Northern Irish working classes for decades (and that left the Malone and Culmore roads pretty much unscathed). I do regret his death, it was unnecessary, but he was not an innocent man. From the Fountain to Ballymurphy, the Shankill to the Falls, the RUC terrorised communities (with a little help from MI6, the paratroopers, etc.). I believe in democratic policing. The RUC is not a democratic, quasi-democratic, or even mildly democratic organisation (as the Stevens inquiry and the Stalker Inquiry pointed out). Socialists shouldn't support the RUC, no more than we should support the Israeli Army or the US army or the Spanish army or the Syrian army.

by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite party Sat Apr 09, 2011 15:48

but our Irish cops and state are up to their necks in all that happened over the last forty years, not least by turning their backs while paying lip service al la Charvez Charley. With Section 31 the BBC gave better coverage with more critical input than did RTE.
The RUC, as you insist on calling them, also happen to be as Irish as you are, as they find out once they set foot on 'mainland' soil. And if nationalists and catholics are prepared to work with it and try to improve things is a bullet or pack of gelly the recipe for a better way?
Do you see no progress with the present situation since the bombs and guns got parked?Or do you expect an overnight transition to this socialist paradise of ubiquitous justice and equality?I dont think the world works like that. If it makes positive progress it tends to be slow, difficult and fragile.
At least at the minute there is room for those who want a non sectarian and non nationally polarised world to converse. Do we really want to regress to kids needing escorts to school under gauntlets of vitriol and rocks?

An act like Kerr's killing makes retaliation more likely. Is that wise?

Aside from that, what evidence do you have that his intentions were other than as highly motivated as your own. Thats what happens with trenches, we dont notice the generals are making us kill each other. Meantime they dont tend to go hungry, and usually have personal security from such acts. Unlike the bystanders who are only trying to feed themselves and their kids, whatever their deluded loyalties. By cheering this shit, or even by saying nothing, we condone reaction that is certainly not socialist as I like to understand the term. But then I'm still an anti-ism-ist. Ideology, unexamined, leads to neural scelerosis. Calling the PSNI the RUC indicates you see no change. I think downing weapons IS an advance. Its all relative, no matter how much we'd prefer the simplicity of absolutes. Even US and Brit soldiers have to answer and respond in ways Mugabe's 'socialists' dont. Be careful what you wish for, and dont lose the improvement for some abstract ideal that costs some fucker his life or legs. And starts an avalanche back to 1950. Its always easier get into a trench than out.

by Stiana Sat Apr 09, 2011 15:53

Democratic police? Ronan Kerr wasn't innocent because he joined "the RUC"!? Pass that wacky stuff around, I could use a laugh. Ronan Kerr wasn't targeted by working-class heroes who just wanted to live in peace, but by evil, murdering, lumpen, reductive fascists. Of Ronan Kerr and his murderers, which of them do you really think deserve our sympathy? Fascists normally wait until they're under severe threat of extinction before turning on their own, ours are more advanced than that and are, bizarrely, targeting "nationalist" police officers, rather than "any" police officers. So the thesis that RK was killed because of implied implication in RUC crimes doesn't stand up. Defenders of the community? Principled opposition to an unacceptable police? Your arse is a bandbox. Murdering your own kind (remember, these ARE fascists, and they would think killing their own is somehow worse than killing 'one of theirs') to try and force 'your' community to turn back in on itself, withdraw from the new institutions and generally make everything a bit more shit than it is for ages, smacks of fear, honest-to-god, fear of peace. And also, seriously, it's the f*cking PSNI now, your anachronistic use of an older label may sound really cool and like you're the only person left who can see the truth, but come on. I mean, COME ON. OK, so let's say it doesn't matter that a fulsome 30% of servicepersons of the PSNI are now of Catholic background, that the old command-and-control system, including large portions of the higher-level officers was inherited directily from the RUC, making the new one "as good as." What is the alternative? Perhaps some sort of violent revolution, resulting in the decimation of the police force (Call it "mandatory retirement," as the "lads" take 20 of them out at a time and shoot them behind the cattle trucks lol), and the ground-up rebuilding of it as a people's militia? Democratic election of officers, allocation of resources left to local police forces...yea, neither of those could possibly go wrong in the context of the north. Avanti!

by James Sat Apr 09, 2011 16:10

Does any one actually read before replying? I didn't say Kerr was killed by heroes. My point was simply that Kerr was not an innocent man, he chose his path. That's it. As for the RUC, my apologies, in line with most people from the North (loyalists, unionists, republicans) I still call it the RUC, force of habit rather than a pointed statement (I also apologise that habit makes me refer to Landsdown Road rather than the Aviva stadium, and regretably I still call Snickers bars Marathon). Names don't matter to me either way. Neither does the sectarian composition of the force, I remember Unionist Catholic RUC officers acting as badly, and as murderous, and as thuggishly as Presbtyerian, Methodist and atheist ones.

by James Sat Apr 09, 2011 16:25

I agree that our Irish police were up to it as well. No argument there. As for the BBC, I wouldn't say their coverage was better, it was as bad as RTE's, just look at their reaction to the Widgery Report, it was pretty shameful. As was their coverage of the Ballymurphy shootings, etc. As I've said before, I agree that the RUC are Irish. That's a fact I wouldn't see the point in arguing. I don't agree that a bullet is the way, again I never said that. I don't expect socialism to emerge overnight, or quickly or easily. Sorry, I call the RUC the RUC out of habit, not due to any pointed statement. I believe the PSNI has changed, but that the changes are cosmetic at best (many of the personel at the top are the same as were up to their necks in the shoot to kill policy of the 80s and early 90s, the same with the middle ranking officers and lower grades). As for downing weapons, that's a point worth looking at. When was the last time you saw a PSNI officer without a handgun strapped to his or her belt? Have they stopped harassing working class communities in Northern Ireland? They are still a militarised police force, and still hiding the past (I'm still waiting for the full Stevens Inquiry to be published).

by Stiana Sat Apr 09, 2011 17:14

Just to prove I have read your argument, I agree you didn't specify that RK was killed by working-class heroes. You DID say, however, that he made his own choice when he put on THAT uniform (ie gained the RUCs Original Sin by being baptised in black cotton. You also said that the RUC (really, calling Snickers Marathon isn't the same thing, and as a resident of the north the only people i know who use the term RUC for the current force have serious chips on their shoulder one way or the other), and that the RUC has brutalised working-class communities across the North. Seems to me the inference there is RUC bad, working class retaliation good, or at least alright. Except it isn't the RUC. It also isn't working-class retaliation. The guys who killed RK are the same lumpen unincorporated elements who will continue to be marginal nuisances in our communities whose only success will have been sometimes murdering someone, rather than standing-up for working class areas, which I would view as an economic and legal struggle, rather than a military one. How do you think an organisation which cannot be taken out of service for overhaul should reform? Mandatory redundancies? No good for morale. Natural wastage? That's what they are at, so your argument that it remains the same force is true in a sense, but ignores the wider picture, that with a large groundswell of catholic/nationalist officers it is only a matter of time until their proportion at higher levels increases. Disarming? They're the cops-and people are trying to murder them! We've a better chance of getting a straight answer out of them than their community alternatives. The other option is to ring up his murderers and ask them to start putting out patrols again. And they definitely weren't as friendly as the cops last time i saw them out. I don't fit into their conception of Irish because a.I speak the language and b.smoke dope. If the cops catch me, i'll get my stuff confiscated. If the boys get me, it's exile or being crippled by them. Two visions of justice, one imperfect by human folly, the other willfully imperfect by design.

by James Sat Apr 09, 2011 17:34

The use of lumpen is too easy, and it doesn't help, in regards either to loyalists or republicans. Was the RUC bad? Yes, it was. Who would argue with that? Do you? Is had one of the worst police records in Europe, which says quite a bit. Mandatory redunancies? Yes in some cases, and court trials for some of them too, I would suggest. Natural wastage may improve the matter, hopefully it will. I have many chips on my shoulder, but the RUC naming isn't one. I don't know where you live, but where I live both communities regularly use it, espcially us who saw the 'troubles'. These things take time, I'm sure their children will use the correct initials in time. The naming to me is irrelevant. I will try and use PSNI in future. Again, I'm not interested in whether Catholics join the PSNI, the sectarian issue doesn't interest me, a man can be a Catholic PSNI officer and be a thug, plenty of them were in the late 80s and early 90s (Bew's, Blackstock's, etc., books have the stats on sectarian composition and corresponding reports against the RUC/PSNI: when Catholic membership increase complaints don't decrease, there is no correlation; Catholics don't make better officers). Again, I wouldn't advocate that the police force should be replaced by terrorist, that would be swapping one horse for another.

by Ciaron - Catholic Worker/ Plowshares Sun Apr 10, 2011 06:04

Surely, even in their own terms of their own terms of reference and what ever motivates those who facilitated tis act - their version of republicanism, a weird nostalgia for a retrospectively perceived more exciting time, vendetta for personal lost in the recent past - this was a soft target and anything but an heroic act, no?

As a christian anarchist pacifist, I agree that imperialism is the problem that imperialism is one of the major sources of global grief. I don't think the twin dead ends of parliamentarism or armed struggle, with or without a popular base, are any kind of answer. I don't see the individual cops and soldiers as the main expression of the problem. I have friends who aref ormer guerrilas, cops and soldiers form the north I'm glad they are all still alive.

As Nixon Watergate headkicker Chales "if ya got them by the balls, their hearts and mind will follow" Colson relefected after becoming a born again christian in jail and changing his posiriton to being anti-death penalty. Execution is a heresy to the christian it is saying that God has no power to act in the life of that person to transform and redeem!

If one bothers to read the scriptures, even as great literature of antiquity and has not the arrogance to tritely reject thousands of years of accrued wisdom and reflection of various waves of imperialsim sweeping this group of people - Egyptian, Babylonian, Roman et. al. One will see that both the O.T. prophets and Jesus primarily address the internalisation of colonisation by the Jews. In this case the internalisation of the Irish of partition, old school British and new school American (Shannon McDonalds etc) imperialism. Besides the G.A.A., the Catholic church, Republcan organisations and a handful of other organisations, partition is clearly internalised and reflected by most organisations on this island from the Irish left to Amnesty International.

Isn't there some kind of stat from the early '90's - that over 90% of 26 county Irish had never spent a night in the north?

The cop in ya head keeps the cop in the streets!

"You can't blow up a social relationship!"
A friend of mine in Brisbane wrote this pamphlet in the late '70's. It still carries a lot of relevance...
http://libcom.org/library/you-cant-blow-up-social-relat...nship

by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite party Sun Apr 10, 2011 11:22

But the labels ARE important, as is the language we use. From internal family rows to international incidents clarity of transfer of meaning can save a lot of grief. Otherwise propaganda would not be practised and lies would be useless as a means for the powerful to engage the weak in mutual collective murder glorified as war for 'our side'.
Already be redefining your terms you've indicated you are wiser than your earlier dismissal seemed to advertise. Our competitive social and economic culture(a global and evolutionary handicap) is what I see as needing addressing. Not easy when the media are embedded in the monetary profiteering stemming from such atavistic roots. We can go on slaughtering each other under varied flags and ideologies, but given the nuclear spears and technologically magnified 'delivery capacity'(more of that importance of language, in this case the euphemistic jargonisation of butchery into sanitised Newspeak)its not too healthy a course to keep on. I'm an ex-pacifist, but I'll only use violence as a last resort, and hopefully not at all.

Ciaron, I would agree with a lot of your posts, but that 'sacred' scripture has been a means to more than a little of the imperial shit delivered over the years. Approach it as literature and its acceptable, but how many do, and which churches advocate this approach, rather than the dogmatic recieved divine and incontravertible truth to be opposed at cost of anathema?Certainly not the Catholic. At least the prods leave the emphasis on the individual conscience, rather than the canonical dictates of an infallible pontiff(as in pontificate, there's them wurdz agin).

When it comes to ancient writings, and 'thousands of years of acrued wisdom', I prefer the Chinese 'I Ching'. A far more measured, integrated, rational and consistent reflection of the world of nature and humanity, as individual and society builder. Its constructive ethos makes the bible look like what I consider it, a collection of the folk-tales of desert tribe striving to conserve its identity in a hostile environment and striving to find a moral basis for its actions. Its central focus on the tribe as 'chosen' has evolved into the moral superiority complex of Christianity rampant, and has probably spilled more blood and enslaved more innocents(if any can claim that label)than most imperialisms. We see its logical extrapolation in modern Israel's denial of the humanity of Palestinians as it collectively reduces them to untermenchen in its escalating expansion, again with the collusion of Christian crusading western weaponised capital. When it comes to choice, I go with think, before believe.

by James Sun Apr 10, 2011 15:34

Language is important, I agree, but I've got a feeling that PSNI is, in working class communities, or will soon become, as hated an acronyn as RUC. Either way, I don't think many people were that affected by the marketing change. A stone is a stone, even if you call it butter. Anyway, at bottom we don't disagree that much. But what I think James-Diablos does show is that the ULA need to address the issue of Northern Ireland; we can't go back to the old blindspot of papering over the Northern issue with platitudes. It's needs vigorous analysis. We can do that with Israel and Palestine but sometimes we fail in relation to our own island. Is the North an imperial situation; are violent responses to it lumpen; are members of a reactionary police force lumpen or decent; do issues of a labour aristocracy still pertain; etc. Larkin, Connolly, Marx, etc. all dealt with these questions; but since the Belfast Agreement we seem to be staying away from it just we reawaken it. The ULA needs to address it either way.

by Helen R. Sun Apr 10, 2011 15:40

Isn't a Christian pacifist an oxymoron? Didn't Christ in Luke tell his disciples to sell what they owned and buy a sword? I agree a social relation can't be blown up, but pacifism kills too.

by Nab Sun Apr 10, 2011 16:14

why has this turned into a debate about the north- what about practical ideas about the future of the ULA?

by Ciaron - Dublin Catholic Worker Mon Apr 11, 2011 09:25

Is U.L.A. organising island wide or accepting partition like the Stop the War/ irish Anti War Movement, Amensty International, Labour Party, soccer bodies etc etc

respone to other post....
Piss poor attempt at playing bible bing there mate. Gospels are obviously a pacifist tract.

and response to another post.....
You don't have to accept the scriptures as "sacred" just acknowledge its a great body of literature. As Ched Myers
http://www.chedmyers.org/node/105 points out...it's about the only literature to come out of antiquity (rest is full of heroes, gods, warriros kings etc etc) where you meet ordinary people and learn the names of fishermen, tax collectors, working women etc The Gospels are written from below...persepctive and allegience (like real estate) s all about location, locatiopn, location.....

Why reject them as a source of wisdom? I get a lot out of "The Wire", just because it is Obama's favourite TV series ain't gonna put me off, is it? Trust the tale not the teller not the publisher even.
Read the scripture and ya could pick up a few tips on basic hygiene rules for desert living, responses and effects of imperialism and colonisation and the various options of relating to it

(Saducees= collaboration, pharisees=reformism, zealots=armed struggle, Essenes+separatist escape and then ya got Jesus and the paradigm shift!)....See John Yoder's "The Politics of Jesus"
http://liberalevangelical.org/index.php?option=com_cont...d=123
a pretty good run for 300 years until the Constantine shift...theprsdicted co-option of the dissident movement by the 3 temptations of power, wealth, status
...nothing new there those 3 have clearly co-opted irish Republicanism, trade unionism, feminism, punk rock, hippies, rappers, socialism AND OF COURSE THIS LATEST U.L.A. ATTEMPT...anything that ya can muster to trow at the state and the empire.

But there are radicals in every tradition and that's who we (Catholic Workers) hook up with in praxis on the basis of direct democracy and nonviolence

by Soul on the bone Tue Apr 12, 2011 07:52

Ciaron sure has literary taste, and sociological insight, when describing the Bible as the only writing from ancient times "where you meet ordinary people and learn the names of fishermen, tax collectors, working women etc." I must bring that quote to my neighbourhood fundamentalist tractarian bible thumper. He might start to read the good book from a new angle. He might even decide to vote for ULA candidates in the next election. Allelulia!

by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite party Tue Apr 12, 2011 15:30

but how to square 'direct democracy and no-violence' with the umbrella of Roman Catholicism?
The Pope as democratic people's representative?
Crusades, Inquisitions, sectarian wars, blessings of naval fleets and territorial wars..all the way down to our own sordid history of child-rape, enslavement and mind-control by indoctrination. And the total silence from its heirarchs on our collaboration with the resource wars being facilitated through Shannon. Or do these matters get discussed in the Sunday sermons?

I want to see some of those contradictions addressed, or at least acknowledged.

but I think Helen, up there above has her quotes twisted(not that I'd be reliable). I think JC said to sell your gear, give the proceeds to the poor, and follow his ways. Thats me memory from the schooldaze. Only time he got violent was them merchants in the temple. And that, as bertie would say, was just a whip-around, no swords included. Now wouldn't that be the Banco Ambrosiano?aka the vatican bank.

They tend to wave the new testament of universal bruddahood, while swatting you with the Mosaic fire n brimstone, eye 4n eye, before you even get one eye open, prem-emptive like. Aye, men 4 ye, as albert's missus might say..

by V for vendetta Tue Apr 12, 2011 15:58

I think Ciarons actions speak for themselves. He's a good person.

JC (if he really existed!) would approve I think.

The bible is just a book. Humans use their interpretation of that book for good or for bad depending on what kind of folk they are.

Fine. The only problem with that is that people are very superstitious and gullible and the idea of a "book from god" is great leverage to bend them to your will

It is, if you like, a weapon of mass persuasion.

Just as it is dangerous to have weapons of mass destruction lying around and they are best destroyed to remove the potential of harm.

Similarly superstitious concepts of gods threatening an eternity of suffering if you don't tow the line defined by your god, should also be eradicated

Both are too dangerous in the wrong hands

As a "neutraliser" of weapons of mass destruction, I would think Ciaron would understand that argument. ;-)

ignorant superstition and the notion that not questioning is somehow a virtue is a dangerous weapon easily exploited by sociopathic leaders and we cannot afford it.
education is the only remedy to this. sometimes even that is useless.

I was recently reminded how dangerous a weapon such superstition was by a documentary on nigerian trafficking for prostitution. The only thing keeping these women enslaved was a juju ritual they underwent before being trafficked and fear of the consequences of breaking their juju vows. The traffickers funded the rituals and were laughing all the way to the bank.

Unquestioning belief and faith is the real enemy

by Soul on the bone Wed Apr 13, 2011 04:07

Interesting comments about ' weapons of mass persuasion' from V for vendetta. I take his point that the Bible's interpreters (including 157 varieties of protestant interpreters) can, and have, interpreted scripture to justify their property, political and financial and moral agendas. All the more reason that a radical Catholic pacifist group like Ciaron's should choose to be in there battling their ground and not letting the supporters of Caesar do all the running without questions being asked. Ciaron's small crowd believe that actions speak louder than words - scriptural interpretation isn't just academic.

Marxism-Leninism from 1917 onwards gave certain pamphlets and books of a 19th century German philosopher the aura of holy writ, and implemented their state policies with argument and persuasion and police powers to back up both. Politburos in two major capital cities, with the vigilance of a Holy Office for the protection of the faith, oversaw their orthodox interpretations of the sacred scriptures, and ensured that heresy and heretics were severely put down.

I'd say that in the contemporary secular world the mass print and electronic media perform the role of weapons of mass persuasion. Murdoch and other media barons hold immense world power without accountability.

This concept of mass persuasion could do with further attention and analysis.

by nab Wed Apr 13, 2011 13:33

how on earth has something as important as the future of the ULA descended into this nonsense waffle about the bible and so on, can people not grow up and take their politics seriously and save waffle time for the pub

by nabbed Wed Apr 13, 2011 17:05

"how on earth has something as important as the future of the ULA descended into this nonsense waffle"

It seems you are guilty of having a naive belief based on sand and have unquestioning faith too nab!! ;-)

The ULA are currently a powerless annoying gnat in the face of a huge majority right wing government who will push through any shite they want no problem.. Whats the point in discussing the future of that either, given the current state of consciousness of the Irish people who voted overwhelmingly for a right wing government who will act against their best interests?

Wheras maybe if we can get people to get into the habit(sic) of thinking more and questioning things they normally don't question (such as their religious belief system) then they won't be so easily suckered into believing right wing lies without questioning them yet again if we ever have another election

by pedestrian thinker Thu Apr 14, 2011 08:15

I welcome the election of the five ULA candidates. They and their steadfast constituency supporters can debate where they want to go with the Alliance and whether they want to, or even can, develop it into a national party.

The Irish electorate recently returned expanded Fine Gael and Labour numbers to the Dail. If the FG/Lab coalition is 'extremely right-wing' does this also mean that the Irish voters are extreme right-wingers? I don't think so; I just thing most citizens are middle of the road i.e. centrist in their social outlook. I don't think they are radically different from voters in Great Britain (excluding the province of Northern Ireland) who, being dissatisfied with the bungling capitalist economic policies of the Labour government, opted for the capitalist policies of the Tory/Lib Dem coalition. Are British voters 'extremely right-wing'? I don't think so; they vote for centrist policies as well. There is class stratification in British society and the Tories have always had a substantial foothold in the landed aristocracy and City of London stockbroker class. The educated middle classes dominate policy formation and implementation in both the Tory and Labour Party. (I'm never sure what the Lib Dems actually stand for - they'll probably get a drubbing from the electorate in a few years time.)

One interesting political fact about centrist, capitalist-leaning Britain is the fact that it is a highly secularized, post-religious society, with the exception of large parts of Wales and Scotland. Secularization and the massive abandonment of religion in England since the early twentieth century has not made the English people automatically radical in their social-political outlook.

If you think, nobbled, that secularization is automatically going to make vast swathes of Irish voters think outside the centrist social-political box, first look at the British, especially English, experience. And France is another highly secularized country that regularly gets right-of-centre governments.

I wish the ULA and some of the Independent deputies good luck; but I have no illusions about the mass of Irish middle of the road voters changing their political allegiances in the foreseeable future.