HRW Report admits that Al Gaddafi was never "hiding" in a "drainage pipe."

by Bobby Sun Nov 11, 2012 22:32

Yeah, I don't really think to much about the finer meanings of a particular word [noble].

by Bobby Sun Nov 11, 2012 21:04

' But can I ask you, did your distaste for the "evil" Gadaffi at the time lead you perhaps to support a "no fly zone" to "protect civilians from being massacred by gadaffi" Bobby?? '

To be totally honest, I used to watch quite a bit of Al Jazeera leading up to this moment. Seeing the destruction caused by the invasion, and the deadly silence on Al Jazeera I knew it stunk. But did I ever support a no-fly zone? Honestly, maybe at some stage in my head I wrestled with the idea, but it's NATO, I mean c'mon! So at no stage was I really considering supporting or even felling sympathetic toward NATO's bombing campaign (or any military campaign).

' No patronising lecture needed from a useful idiot anti - gadaffi / Assad / Putin / chavez / castro / {insert current western media painted bad boy here} cheerleader. '

No, I don't support any leadership, none any more than other. No authority is legitimate, so it is for you to explain your support for these filth, rather than me to defend my opposition to every one of them.

' Tell me Bobby, are the people of Libya really so much better off now? How about the people of Iraq?
As someone might ask Madeline Albright, was it worth it?? '

I think I said something about opposing imperialsim and war, read back through.

' ... he is just repeating what he heard from corrupt misleaders, who call themselves Socialists... mindless parrot the bourgeois media. there is no nobility in this mindlessness. '

Yeah, I don't really think to much about the finer meanings of a particular word. I have my generally defined meaning of the word, and maybe that is bad. After all, the word 'civilisation' is neatly decorated in the dictionary as being the greatest achievement of mankind. Some pretty harsh conditions exist under aggressive industrial civilisation, not mentioned in the dictionary. So yeah, sorry to jump on the words you're using. Still though, don't like Gaddafi.

But the stuff about the western media and all, I don't think I'm quite as brainwashed as you think. I also have a filter system you know.

' I guess a bit of that and maybe some cognitive dissonance helps when you are dissing one dictator while ignoring a whole bunch of other western dictatorships including one very prominent corporate police state dicktatorship where people get to choose between two people like romney and obama who are almost exactly the same. And no doubt whichever one gets in will continue the same policies, bombing children, killing with sanctions, arresting anyone they like off the streets worldwide without charge and taking them away to black prisons for torture, destabilising other peoples countries by supplying weapons, money and training to opposition terrorists, spying on citizens at home and worldwide electronically, and doing it all on a much larger scale than a puny strong man like Gadaffi could ever even dream of, even assuming he actually did think like one of these psychopaths. '

Yeah... I dunno. I don't think you're listening to me. I don't see an attack on anything I said, you're just attacking things you think I might have in my head. No I'm not like you think, and not like you describe. Read back over everything I said and write about the words I have used.

(I didn't read back over this because I'm tired, so I hope it's okay)

by An Drighneán Donn Thu Nov 08, 2012 18:47

Wonderful talk from a very smart guy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rp7nLRmhdRs

by braindead Tue Nov 06, 2012 04:31

Bobby said:
"but I bet you anything that you enjoy a nice can of Coke - I see many Irish 'revolutionaries' drinking that crap"

"From your attitude, it would seem to me that you only watch RT"

"However, I could guess by your comments that you're never wrong and spending 15minutes on the internet gives you perfect insight"

"You're comments are an embarrassment "

"you present yourself as ignorant and overly-confident"

"at least try to say something more intelligent. "

He also said:
"Wow! I forgot the abuse factor of using Ireland's indymedia. Wow."

indeed!!! Quite the hypocrite eh Bobby?

I guess a bit of that and maybe some cognitive dissonance helps when you are dissing one dictator while ignoring a whole bunch of other western dictatorships including one very prominent corporate police state dicktatorship where people get to choose between two people like romney and obama who are almost exactly the same. And no doubt whichever one gets in will continue the same policies, bombing children, killing with sanctions, arresting anyone they like off the streets worldwide without charge and taking them away to black prisons for torture, destabilising other peoples countries by supplying weapons, money and training to opposition terrorists, spying on citizens at home and worldwide electronically, and doing it all on a much larger scale than a puny strong man like Gadaffi could ever even dream of, even assuming he actually did think like one of these psychopaths.

Still, western approved dicktators are so much nicer than unapproved of dictators like Gadaffi eh Bobby? (NOT!) Which is why, when people like you come along in an idiotic drive by one liner on a website to attack Gadaffi who was publicly and brutally murdered without trial after being knife raped tribal style by the vicious henchmen of these so called "civilised world leaders", you get a little kickback. And in my opinion deservedly so.

by An Draighneán Donn Tue Nov 06, 2012 03:34

We shouldn't be too hard on Booby. After all, he is just repeating what he heard from corrupt misleaders, who call themselves Socialists. We already know that one of these pseudo-gangs had a CIA agent in its ranks, and may well have been in receipt of large sums of CIA cash, via this agent. How many others are also compromised? After the mental collapse of the Left, when faced with a resurgent imperialism, in Syria, Libya, and through Libya into the rest of Africa, we are faced with the massive task of rebuilding a credible Left, of weeding out the rotten and building up the strong and the good. Hopefully, Bobby, and many like him, will soon see the rotten leaders for what they are, and then he will have the courage to pay tribute to a great Socialist like al-Gaddafi.

by An Draighneán Donn Tue Nov 06, 2012 03:21

Bobby makes the mistake of talking one definition of a word, and then discounting any other meaning. Of course, when a phrase like "the nobility" is used, it generally refers to a parasite class. However, it would be a travesty to restrict this word to this one meaning. From my use of it above, it was very clear that I was referring to something very different to hereditary rank.

The word nobility comes from the Latin word noscere, which is a verb meaning to get to know, or to find out. From this meaning, it extends to the concepts of high-mindedness, magnanimity , loftiness of character. All qualities that we would easily attribute with men like James Connolly. Anyone who has taken the trouble to get to know about Colonel Muammar al-Gaddafi will readily attribute the quality of nobility to this man. Noble is a term also used of certain metals, including gold, as the resist tarnishing. I think that anyone of an untarnished mind will agree that Muammar al-Gaddafi was one of the greatest Socialists of all time. Only the USSR could compare with his wonderful achievements. It is sad that people who should know better mindless parrot the bourgeois media. there is no nobility in this mindlessness.

by knobby Mon Nov 05, 2012 22:09

I look forward to your equally scathing attacks on Obama, Netenyahu, and the monarchy in Bahrain, Saudi Arabia and Kuwait. Y'know, our western friendly tyrants.

Do you prefer them to Gadaffi?? Or is it just Dicktators that don't play ball with western capitalism that you are moved to write so disparagingly about on websites??

I don't drink coke actually. Hate the stuff and what it stands for. And am well aware of their past and present corporate malfeasance thank you very much. No patronising lecture needed from a useful idiot anti - gadaffi / Assad / Putin / chavez / castro / {insert current western media painted bad boy here} cheerleader.

Tell me Bobby, are the people of Libya really so much better off now? How about the people of Iraq?
As someone might ask Madeline Albright, was it worth it??

Should we dislike dictators but leave them alone or should we "go in" and topple them?

What is your knowledgeable opinion on this Bobby?

by braindead Mon Nov 05, 2012 20:18

"Not all of us are as dim as you would hope we are. Good luck... "

Fair enough, thank dog for that! I guess there is SOME hope for you after all. Forgive my cynicism, but many people come on sites llke this and regurgitate cheap MSM pap opinions like your one on Gadaffi.

But can I ask you, did your distaste for the "evil" Gadaffi at the time lead you perhaps to support a "no fly zone" to "protect civilians from being massacred by gadaffi" Bobby??

by Bobby Mon Nov 05, 2012 19:07

' Bobby, do you have a problem with the concept of nobility '
Yes I do! Nobility comes from the idea of segregation, or what capitalists (or the bourgeois) call 'social status'. I call is 'class'. Nobility is about privilege, and I oppose privilege for the few.

' Hey Bobby, keep drinking the US sponsored cool aid. Tasty isn't it? '
I oppose Imperialism, aggression and human rights abusers, and I certainly don't drink US sponsored cool aid (I suppose Coca-Cola is the physical representation there. I don't drink Coke because of it's environmental destruction, it's support of fascists back in the day - google 'Fanta Nazi' if you don't already know about that - it's human rights and workers rights abuses in less formally developed places such as Latin America, and even it's blatant abuse of Irish workers - truck drivers were fucked over two/three years ago... but I bet you anything that you enjoy a nice can of Coke - I see many Irish 'revolutionaries' drinking that crap)

' Crippling sanctions on Iran '
I vehemently disagreed with sanctions on Iraq, I vehemently disagree with sanctions 'and/or aggression) on Iran. These sanctions normally hurt the poorest people, children/babies and those in need of permanent and emergency health care.

' Murdering terrorists committing atrocities in Syria - Good
Assad government fighting these terrorists - Bad '
Can't respond to this, it's offensively simplistic to those who have perished so far.

' Nice belief system Bobby. Careful not to read anything that might make you look at your pre digested MSM media '
From your attitude, it would seem to me that you only watch RT, judging by your aggressive assertions. You have no idea what my belief system is, and I can tell you that I like to think I know what's going on in the world - and I try to keep in touch, but the more I learn, the more I realise the less I understand. However, I could guess by your comments that you're never wrong and spending 15minutes on the internet gives you perfect insight into unbelievably messy and complicated situations. You're comments are an embarrassment because you present yourself as ignorant and overly-confident. All you did was assume something about me and attack it. You don't know who I am and you don't know how I think, so why bother replying like you did? Why not attack what I actually said?

'Terrible affliction that ADD Knobby. I think you can take something for that.
Not really much you can do to fix the utter stupidity problem though.'
This is nice, just simple abuse directed at me, professional debater right here. You should try attacking my idea, not me.

' "noble" was referring to the pistol not Gadaffi. Learn to read more carefully before forming your responses Bobby '
You're right, but the nobility is implied for himself considering it was his gun, no? At least you responded to something I said and refrained from abuse.

If you're going to attack me, try to rebuff me, or at least try to say something more intelligent.

The reason I wrote my comment was because I don't like Gaddafi. I'm not interested in self-declared authoritarian ''leaders'', and I'm not going to use language that defends or glorifies his own atrocities. If you talk to good, genuine people who opposed his authoritarian leadership (I can imagine he had plenty of decent people brutally murdered), they will tell you it wasn't great. Real life suffering happens under these lunatics, it's not all about being perfectly politically correct. But I suppose those words enter your heads as; GADDAFI WAS A MURDERER AND I SUPPORT NATO.

Not all of us are as dim as you would hope we are. Good luck...

by foxADD Sun Nov 04, 2012 17:39

"noble" was referring to the pistol not Gadaffi. Learn to read more carefully before forming your responses Bobby

by knobby Sat Nov 03, 2012 17:47

"60 words into a 'story' about Gaddafi and I see the word 'noble'. Can't and/or won't finish the rest"

Terrible affliction that ADD Knobby. I think you can take something for that.
Not really much you can do to fix the utter stupidity problem though.

Perhaps a bit more drooling on front of FOX news might relax you?

Here's a handy link:

http://www.foxnews.com/

Just click the mouse button while pointing the little arrow at the link
There...back safely in your "no spin zone".

by braindead Sat Nov 03, 2012 17:32

Hey Bobby, keep drinking the US sponsored cool aid. Tasty isn't it?

then repeat after me:

Gadaffi was evil. Obama is good,

Crippling sanctions on Iran and threats of attack for not having any nuclear weapons
and for joining and adhering to the NPT - Good

Sanctions on Israel for having 200+ nukes and not joining the NPT
and threatening WWIII in the middle east - Bad

Murdering terrorists committing atrocities in Syria - Good
Assad government fighting these terrorists - Bad

Al Qaeda when occasionally bombing our stuff - Bad (but very useful for bringing in a police state)
Al Qaeda when making money for us and getting rid of leaders that won't play ball - Good

Executive murder lists gone through by the president every tuesday - Good
Whistleblowers like Bradley manning, Assange and wikileaks letting us know about this kind of shit - Bad

Perpetual war and a police state at home profiting the 1% and destroying the lives of everyone else - Good
People fighting back against this in poor third world exploited countries - Bad

Nice belief system Bobby. Careful not to read anything that might make you look at your pre digested MSM media fed reality from a different viewpoint. And all your beliefs DO hang together perfectly logically without any holes. Really. And there is a santa claus and a tooth fairy and your government is honest, means well and cares a lot about your welfare and the welfare of everyone in the world and all the little puppies too.

by An Draighneán Donn Sat Nov 03, 2012 03:51

Bobby, do you have a problem with the concept of nobility? Is it something that makes you feel uncomfortable? If I was at fault in the writing of that article, it was that I delayed for 60 words in my use of the word noble. In good writing, the word noble is always side by side with the name Muammar al-Gaddafi.

by Bobby Fri Nov 02, 2012 22:57

60 words into a 'story' about Gaddafi and I see the word 'noble'. Can't and/or won't finish the rest.

This is not news.

by An Draighneán Donn Tue Oct 30, 2012 05:44

Here is an interesting article, written by a Libyan, on the ancient hatred between Misrata and Bani Walid. I dont agree with everything he says, but I presume the historical account he gives is fairly accurate, and I'm quite sure that he is correct in saying that the NTC were given no say in the matter by the Misrata militias.

http://www.thenational.ae/thenationalconversation/comme...ained

by An Draighneán Donn Tue Oct 30, 2012 04:14

I think they are very reasonable questions. In answer to them, I would say that the type of nation building that Al Gaddafi attempted in Libya also happened in Europe. It would be reasonable to say that England was not a real nation until Henry VIII stamped his personality, often very brutally, on the various factions and power bases that had operated, almost independently, in England, until that time. The same can be said of nations all over Europe. A very strong personality formed the national consciousness, and, for a time, this personality and the nation must have seemed one and the same thing to the people.

This is precisely the process that Western imperialism tries, at all costs, to stop happening in the Third World. Any strong national personality, like, for example, Patrice Lumumba, in Congo, will be publically slaughtered, in the most obscene fashion, and a servile Western puppet regime put in his place - that can only ever win the contempt and hatred of the people, and actually operate to atomize the population even further.

We saw that Al Gaddafi was immensely popular till the very end. When we saw massive demonstrations supporting him, all over Libya, in 2011, the Western media dismissed these demonstrations as have been at the point of Gaddafi guns. Its now clear that, in 2011, Al Gaddafi had no such power - or anything like it. A million people came out in Green Square. They were under threat of murder all right - but not from Al Gaddafi, from NATO bombing.

So, the question then is, as you say, should he have stepped down even ten years ago? We will never know the answer to that. Even ten years ago, Islamist gangs were very strong in Eastern Libya. Perhaps they would immediately have started a civil war against a newer and weaker leader. 40 years is actually not enough time to create a nation. I mentioned Henry VIII above. On his death, a near civil war situation immediately arose. We see that the attack by Misrata militias against Bani Walid has very little to do with national politics, but much more to do with tribal rivalry.

Also, we must remember that Al Gaddafi considered himself an African. His project, particularly in the last ten years, was Pan-African in nature, and hugely dangerous for himself personally. He was pushing for a single African passport, a single African central bank, even a single African army. He was only months away from introducing an African currency, the Gold Dinar. This would have utterly changed the whole world. Africa is an unimaginably wealthy continent. Yet, its people starve. The main reason for this is African natural resources are traded for worthless paper dollars. The USA prints paper - and gets oil, gold, uranium, diamonds, cobalt, etc. etc. in return for its bits of paper. And 25,000 children die every day from drinking dirty water. Al Gaddafi intended to end this Holocaust of the Innocents. He had already built the greatest humanitarian project of all time, The Great Man Made River, which now supplies Africa with as much fresh water as the Nile flowing for 200 years. They said that that was impossible, that it couldn't be done. But, he did it. Perhaps the ending of the Holocaust of Africa couldn't be done. The USA would gladly start WW3 rather than have this Holocaust stopped, and actually pay the Africans for their wealth. But, one thing is for sure, if it could be done, there was only one person on the face of this earth that had a chance of doing it. That was Muammar al-Gaddafi.

by north facer Tue Oct 30, 2012 03:27

Muammar Gadhafi was brave to the end, staying with the remnant of his troops. He didn't run away. I just wonder though. Was he unwise to remain in power for more than 40 years and create a cult of his personality? Did he treat other tribal groups in Libya as fairly as he treated members of his own dominant tribe?

The NATO air offensive attained its objective of getting rid of Gadhafi, but Libya is now a deeply split tribal society. It could partition into the east and the west. Gangsterism has been facilitated by the distribution of weapons to "the rebels" during the 6-month air offensive by NATO. Ordinary people in village and city will feel insecure for many years against the attentions of armed thieves and rapists.

by An Draighneán Donn Tue Oct 30, 2012 03:17

However, the Irish Anti-War Movement are still peddling the lie, on their website, that the hundreds of Black people lynched and burned to death by racist mobs in Benghazi and Misrata were "Gaddafi Mercenaries," that came to Libya on "Mercenary Flights."

Please watch this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=miPHlB0jmKE

by An Draighneán Donn Mon Oct 29, 2012 10:08

I see that even after HRW have discounted the lie that Al Gaddafi was hiding in a pipe, the gimps that the BBC are still repeating the lie. Of course, they know that most people will never read a detailed report. Probably the BBC gimps haven't read it themselves either. If they did, they don't care. They need the lie to sap the will to resist among the Libyan people. And this is what RTÉ picked as their new head of current affairs? No wonder RTÉ is now nothing but a pipe for NATO propaganda. However, the will to resist is growing stronger by the day in Libya - as it is in Ireland. Expect to hear much more slanders about Colonel Al Gaddafi, as the imperialists face stronger and stronger opposition.

by An Draighneán Donn Mon Oct 29, 2012 06:15

The defense of Sirte will be remembered as one of the greatest moments of the human spirit. The bravery of its defenders is unsurpassed in all of human history. In these times of capitalist decadence and nihilism, it's very easy to forget that such courage even exists. For over a month, Sirte was bombarded with weapons of mass destruction that Hitler couldn't even have dreamed of, such as White Phosphorus and Depleted Uranium, and to the very end, the heroes would not surrender.

God bless you brave warriors of the Jamahiriya, the Peoples Direct Democracy.