Article on the Catholic Workers in today's Irish Times

by P Mon May 05, 2003 14:14

And most of these questions have been discussed and answered on Indymedia before. So why are you still trolling?

by poff Mon May 05, 2003 14:24

the catholic workers are catholics not roman catholics as i recall so that should answer about half of those questions already

by Deirdre Clancy - Catholic Worker Mon May 05, 2003 15:19

The Catholic Worker is traditionally pacifist, and being consistent in its pacifism, it doesn't support the use of armed force in any way, shape or form. This includes the Spanish Civil War and WWII. We support nonviolent civil disobedience. In the States, many Catholic Workers have done jail terms for acts of civil disobedience done in solidarity with workers, unions, etc., so the movement has been consistently on the side of the workers.

It was said in the article that the CW has challenged the institutional Church on many issues, so why not research this yourself? It's not a centralized, monolithic organisation but a movement, so there can be varying degrees of opinion on the other issues you have mentioned. Personally, I think the Church has been reprehensible on many issues, but I'm not prepared to go into these issues, because it would take too long, and my views may not be necessarily representative of everyone else's in the group. It's not evasion, it's merely a desire not to misrepresent other people in the CW and have everyone pigeonholed on these issues. We are definitely faith-based, however, and as such we do identify with many Church traditions of faith-based resisitance. I don't feel we should be obliged to explain ourselves in this forum; our action speaks for itself, draw your own conclusions. Radical Catholicism/Christianity is alive and well in certain parts of the globe; one of the main objectives of the School of the Americas has been to "defeat liberation theology"; seen as a major threat to U.S. economic interests. Just because this form of Catholicism not been too much in evidence in Ireland doesn't mean we should constantly have to apologise for our existence.

by Magneto Mon May 05, 2003 16:04

Hilda,

A few outstanding questions that the SP have yet to answer:

1. Who told SY members that Labour Youth had been dissolved to beat Militant?

2. Why was John Throne refused permission to appeal to the CWI World Congress.

3. How could the CWI call for a vote for Labour in Dundee East yet still callthe Labour a Bosses Party?

by Daithi Mon May 05, 2003 16:26

What has this got to do with the Catholic Worker Movement? You can't force anyone to give you an answer and using unrelated topics to try and get one is not peer review of the original 'article' (if I can use that term in this case). By all means write an article (NOT a list of questions) on the failings of the SP if there isn't already one that you can add a comment to. But every newswire article doesn't have to end up with 100 comments about John Throne!

by Magneto Mon May 05, 2003 16:31

Hilda is very quick to ask questions, I'm merely pointing out that her own organisation has a difficulty with answers.

by Daithi Mon May 05, 2003 16:45

And I have tangled with her on the occasions I take off an IMC hat, and found it very enjoyable (http://www.indymedia.ie/cgi-bin/newswire.cgi?id=44729 and http://www.indymedia.ie/cgi-bin/newswire.cgi?id=44715) but you know that the SP good/SP bad debate has nearly been done to death by now. No-one's going to delete or interfere with off-topic comments at all so it's just a suggestion to keep the site more accessible for new readers, who may not be familiar with the ongoing debates in response to other articles.

by Magneto Mon May 05, 2003 16:47

Point taken.

by Fergal OB Mon May 05, 2003 21:01

The Catholic Workers should be judged by their actions, as should the SP. There are many Catholics out there who are committed to social justice and who oppose capitalism and imperialism while at the same time opposing the Institution of their own church.
Personally, I dont want to be part of any organisation where I can't have a say in how its run and how it selects its leaders, but for those who want to remain there, and who share my outlook on redistribution and equality, fair play to you brothers and sisters, your patience and optimism is stronger than mine!

by Hilda Robinson Tue May 06, 2003 00:12

Why does everyone think I'm in the SP? I do think that people on this website are a bit irrational in attacking them. Just becuae in other positings I've made points that SP members would have made, that does not necessarily make me an SP member.

On the CW. I fully understand that there are differences in the CW. The nature of the group means it's relatively broad and based on libertairian ideas. I understand this and dont think that what one CW member would say is the definite position of the group.

Deirdre, I would be interested in your personal opinion on infallibility of the pope, abortion, divorce, transubstantiation etc.

I think that you are very wrong to say that all wars are wrong. Again I put it to you: if Bush was to attack Venezuala tomorrow and the workers of that country resisted using arms would you be pacifist? Would you be neutral in this case when victory for the workers armed forces would be a major blow to US imperialism and would bring about a serious prospect for a socialist revolution?

by Andrew Tue May 06, 2003 11:33

I must say Hilda I'd also presumed you must be in the SP - it's very unusual to find non-members parroting the ludicrous elements of 'democratic' centralist party lines even if they agree with that organisation on other stuff.

Throwing all the questions at the Catholic Workers would be interesting all other things being equal. But right now they are not. The situation is that most if not all of their members are facing very serous charges arising out of actions at Shannon airport. The situation is that the trotskyist/green leadership of the IAWM including the SP has gone out of its way to isolate those who have carried out such actions. In that context a load of controversal questions from an apperant SP member is going to look a lot like an attempt to further isolate them by provoking rows with those other direct action activists who are very strongly pro-choice etc.

Right now they need further isolation like they need a hole in the head. In fact I suspect that we are quite capable of handling such a discussions in a sensible way. But I understand why CW are so suspicious of the motives of those who choose to ask these questions at this time.

Here's a constructive suggestion. Over 60 people were arrested or face charges for taking action against the war. Some pretty large fines have been handed down (3150 in one case) and more large fines or even jail sentences are quite likely. We've already started raising a lot of money for this but why not give us a hand.

Can I suggest that CW agree to give brief individual answers to one question for every 1,000 Euro Hilda and the other curious trots raise for the legal defence funds. As well as being a great help this would also convince all concerned that your motivations were genuine is asking these questions every few days.

by FK - SP (personal capacity) Tue May 06, 2003 12:12

I would agree that those that are facing legal action should be supported by the IAWM. Fundraisers and legal help should be organised.

Andrew, you seem to think that the SP are not victims of the legal clampdown by the state, the SP do have members that are facing legal action.

As for Hilda, I am a member of the SP and I have never heard of anyone by the name of Hilda Robinson. To tell you the truth I don't have a clue who she is or who she is affiliated to.

by Cato Tue May 06, 2003 12:52

Some members of the SP post under fake or partial names: Red, hs, hot trot, GK, Angry Activist etc.

This could be the case with both Hilda and Ken.

by Andrew Tue May 06, 2003 13:09

Hi FK,

when you say
"Andrew, you seem to think that the SP are not victims of the legal clampdown by the state, the SP do have members that are facing legal action."
are you talking of people arrested or facing charges out of anti-war stuff? If so could you post vague details here so I can see it this is in addition to the 60 or so that I know about already.

Or are you talking in relation to some other issue?

Also fundraisers etc have already being organised by sections of the Irish anti-war movements. I'm not aware of anything from the self-styled Irish Anti War Movement as yet but I'm sure any solidarity the IAWM was willing to give would be appreciated by all concerned.

by Finghin Tue May 06, 2003 19:18

Andrew,
I am talking in relation to anti war activities. One member is in court some time this week I think regarding action taken in Shannon. And a young member was arrested at the 'ring around the Dail'.

by Hilder Guard - Guarding against Hildas Wed May 07, 2003 01:13

If I wanted to undermine support for the Catholic Worker people who are facing years in prison what would I do?

Pick a subject which splits them off from the rest of the left to try and drive a wedge between them and their secular support base.

e.g.

Abortion;

or

the use of violence in the Spanish Civil war.

Hilda,

What have you done activly to support the Catholic Workers?

If the answer is "not much", why would they even consider entering into your debate which looks like a plan to trap them?

by Andrew Wed May 07, 2003 10:50

OK the Dail one I have (presuming he was one of the two mentioned the day afterwards and not in addition to this). The Shannon one sounds new though, do you know what protest he was arrested on or if not one of the protests an approximate date and circumstances.

by Hilda Robinson Wed May 07, 2003 13:05

I'm asking because I'm interested in their ideas etc. I fully support the CW in their court cases. I have alot of respect for them and they are genuine in their opposition to war, exploitation, etc.

I think people on the left have enough maturity to realise that not all in the Catholic Workers are of the same opinion, and that they are fully entitled to have their own views. When working on anti-war stuff, why should someone care if others have divergent views on religion, abortion, divorce etc.

by FK Thu May 08, 2003 00:44

Andrew,
I am not sure on the details you would have to ask a member from Limerick. All I know that her case was recently in court.

by Hilder Guard Thu May 08, 2003 02:23

>I fully support the CW in their court cases.

How?