Save St Pauli FC

by 'foreign' news section. Tue May 27, 2003 10:16

i have ·voted·
:-)

by Seamus Tue May 27, 2003 12:36

Pat,

No offense but your idea of what constitutes news is up your arse.

While you my deem you petition more relevant than the spanish election results or the internal wranglings of the Oz SWP, that is not the point.

Both of these stories contained opinion and analysis of the events in question whereas yours is spammy advertisement for a petition. If you wish to make it newsworthy rather than incessantly reposting it, try writing a decent article around it, perhaps with some background as to why the petition is necessary, or about racism and anti-racism in football. If you don't at least do that then your post is just another piece of spam like that in our mail every day.

While you may find it acceptable to use indymedia's resources for spam I don't. I'm sure the computer setup costs money, I'm sure plenty of volunteers have given up oodles of freetime to keep this site going and to build for its future, and I'm quite sure all this effort wasn't setup to facilitate spam about some football club.

So to reiterate, if you really do have something dear to your heart you want to post, make it newsworthy first!

by Wacker Tue May 27, 2003 12:41

I agree with seamus, and i also think if you did what he said, you'd probably get more people to sign your petition too. I know if I'd read an intersting story and at the end the author asked me to sign a petition, then even though I've no interest in football, I'd probably sign it anyway.

But as this article stands I couldn't be bothered, not to mention the fact that online petitions aren't even worth the paper they're not written on.

by pat c Tue May 27, 2003 12:46

Why dont you 2 write something original? Or go jopin Knockers Anonymous?

by ABC - LOL Tue May 27, 2003 12:47

St Pauli and the Sallys against racism and fascism in football, What about Sectarianism; given the Celtic supporters record on Sectarianism maybe it best not to mention it.

by pat c Tue May 27, 2003 12:55

Typical fuckwitted brit loving loyalist! Its ranger loyalist fans who have been going around slitting peoples throats.

You might remember that the UVF tried to get one of them transferred to the north so that he would be released under the GFA.

It is Celtic fans who oppose fascism and racism, the BNP find fertile ground in the ranks of Rangers supporters.

by pat c Tue May 27, 2003 12:57

He couldnt be bothered to go sign the petition but he does have the time to post a dim witted comment. Good boy!

by Mags Tue May 27, 2003 13:03

Seeing as the last poster describes him/herself as 'ABC LOL', I think we can recognise where s/he is coming from, re: Sectarianism.

This appeal is about the St Pauli FC in Hambusrg who have been relegated this season and will now be playing semi-professionally, rather that as a full professional club.

St. Pauli FC, founded in 1910, is well known as an anti-Fascist and pro-Irish club. It is based in a working class area of Hamburg and has always had a large working class support. The club is now in severe financial trouble, its continued existence is in doubt.

What the appeal is about is for people to sign the petition calling on the Board of Celtic FC to hold a friendly between Celtic and St Pauli with the finds raised donated to St Pauli. The petition is open until the end of the month and WILL then be printed off and used on lobbying the Celtic board and others to hold such a friendly.

I am sure the above facts will have be of limited interest to the middle class know-nothings on this board. But the thread is as relevant as a lot of the gunk threads on this board.

by pat c Tue May 27, 2003 13:10

It would take a middle class twit to not understand the links between football and anti racism. Although I find it hard to believe that Seamus and Wacker were unaware that fascists try to recruit amongst football fans. Those 2 are just typical knockers.

by Seamus Tue May 27, 2003 13:40

Pat,

First of all I'm not middle class, so lets get that out of the way, and I do understand the links between football and anti racism.

What I was trying to say if you actually bothered to read it was that the piece you posted was crap journalism, this is a news site after all. Even mags in a post further down gave much more background to the story in one paragraph than you did.

I have no problems with your sentiments in fact I agree with them. All I'm trying to say is WRITE A STORY, make it interesting, give background, give opinion. There's enough shite on the wire without adding to it, this is our media and its up to all of us to to maintain its quality.

by pat c Tue May 27, 2003 13:47

The petition was aimed at certain people, i'm not running an educational service. If you knew so much about the links between football and anti-racism then why dodnt you share your knowledge?

Did you get more of a kick out of spending 200 words knocking people who actually try to do someything

by Seamus Tue May 27, 2003 14:44

>The petition was aimed at certain people, i'm
>not running an educational service.

Regardless of who its aimed at its on an open wire and seen by all. And similarly indymedia is not running a petition service its running a news service which is a form of education. So if thats no what your doing you shouldn't be using the wire for it.

>If you knew so much about the links between
>football and anti-racism then why dodnt you
>share your knowledge?

Because I didn't post a story on the subject, You did!

>Did you get more of a kick out of spending 200
>words knocking people who actually try to do
>someything

No I don't, I simply think the wire is for news not spam, and I don't think posting up a cut'n paste of a petition letter with a link qualifies as "doing something" either. As someone who has written stories and published photos infrequently in the past, I've spend quite a bit of time before I hit the story publish button, and I think so should you.

by pat c Tue May 27, 2003 15:04

"Regardless of who its aimed at its on an open wire and seen by all. And similarly indymedia is not running a petition service its running a news service which is a form of education. So if thats no what your doing you shouldn't be using the wire for it."

Well I think this is news. You dont. Why cant we agree to disagree? Should only news of interest to ALL indy readers be published? Who the fuck are you to tell me what I should be using indy for?

"Because I didn't post a story on the subject, You did!"

Yeah, but you found the time to do a lot of moaning. Thats why I dont take you seriously. You are so typical of a certain type of knocker.

">Did you get more of a kick out of spending 200
>words knocking people who actually try to do
>someything

No I don't, "

Well, why write your whinges instead of sharoing your knowledge with us?

Now kindly fuck off and go back to pulling wings off flies or whatever else gets you off.

by Fred Tue May 27, 2003 15:07

You make me homesick mensch!

by pat c Tue May 27, 2003 15:11

You make a change. Seamus was just making me sick with his nauseating knocking.

by pat c Tue May 27, 2003 15:21

( I dont have time to rewrite this, so Seamus can swivel if he doesnt like it.)

PUP campaigns to drive racists out of Ballymena

Henry McDonald, Ireland editor
Sunday May 25, 2003
The Observer

They chant 'No surrender to the IRA' at England internationals and fly the
Ulster flag, the symbol of Protestant loyalism, alongside the Cross of St
George.
They even come on 'solidarity tours' during the Northern Ireland marching
season, hoping to meet idols such as the loyalist terrorist Johnny 'Mad
Dog' Adair.
But now the far-right neo-Nazis of Britain are being told they are not welcome
in the staunchest loyalist town in Ulster and capital of Ian Paisley's Bible
belt - Ballymena.

The man leading the campaign to stop English-based far-right groups establishing
a base in the province is a former loyalist killer who now supports the
peace process.

Over the past three months there have been attacks on houses rented by nurses
from the Philippines and Romanian economic migrants in the Co Antrim town.

In response, the ex-Ulster Volunteer Force prisoner Billy McCaughey, and
colleagues in the Progressive Unionist Party, PUP, have come on to the streets
to drive the neo-Nazis out.

Standing under a street sign covered in race hate leaflets, McCaughey points
to a slogan from the National Front. It reads: 'Proud to be British and
white.'
'I'm proud to be British too,' he says, 'but you don't have to be white
to be British. Even in my most sectarian days I was never a racist.'

His 'sectarian days' began while he was a serving Special Branch officer
in the Royal Ulster Constabulary by day and a member of the Ulster Volunteer
Force at night. He was sentenced to a life sentence for the 1977 murder
of Catholic chemist William Strathhearn. In the Maze prison he met Gusty
Spence, David Ervine and other UVF leaders who were to push the loyalist
movement towards a ceasefire and a compromise with the republicans.

Since the neo-Nazi presence emerged in his home town, McCaughey has been
concerned to stop young loyalists joining organisations such as the National
Front and the White National Party, a more extreme offshoot of the British
National Party.

'These groups can sound attractive to young loyalists because their rhetoric
is so pro-British and pro-unionist,' he says. 'But these people are no friends
of Ulster loyalists. The PUP believes in a pluralist United Kingdom.'What's
more, the UVF centres its history on the Somme and the sacrifice of Ulster
people in two world wars. In the Second World War, Ulster people fought
against Hitler and the Nazis, and now these neo-Nazis want to make common
cause with us.'
McCaughey said he and fellow PUP members have held meetings in Ballymena
to persuade UVF members to have nothing to do with the neo-fascist groups
that have descended on the town.

Since the PUP door-to-door campaign against the Far Right began around Easter,
there have been no further attacks on immigrant workers in the town.
Not all loyalist terror groups and their political allies are as hostile
towards the English Far Right as the UVF and PUP. The Loyalist Volunteer
Force maintains connections with the neo-Nazi terrorist organisation Combat
18. Until recently sections of the UDA also had links with C18.

by Aidan Tue May 27, 2003 19:01

Indymedia.ie delete petitions for two reasons.

We're swamped with them. Before the war every day we got that shagging "make the pope be a human shield" a couple of times a day petitions. Not to mention, the e-mail petition to convict Blair of war crimes.

Just because you think this petition is more valid than others doesn't mean it has more of a right to be here.

Secondly e-mail petitions are a waste of time. They don't work. Not even printing them out, they're not effective, and give people the illusion that a mouse click can save the world (or whatever) discouraging pratical work.

Write an article about St Pauli, suggest a letter writing campaign (a more effective method) but quit spamming the wire with this.

by R Isible Tue May 27, 2003 19:07

you complain about the SWP-split post (which was deleted numerous times FYI and now is not being deleted because of the number of comments on it) and your response is to throw up a petition?

Nice going, clear logic and good reasoning.

If something you've posted has been deleted then you have the following recourse:
1. talk to the editors about it on imc-ireland-editorial. If the editorial collective decides to let the deletion stand then there's nothing you can do about it.

2. write something better that provides information and context

3. keep on posting it and keep on having it deleted. This is the brave and principled stand against censorship for which we all salute you. It's good to see someone unafraid to stand up for what they believe in: reproducing crap that originated somewhere else in someone else's words. Well done. You're a hero.

by Josephine Tue May 27, 2003 20:00

The campaign to save st Pauli FC is news, and is a frontline cause in the fight against fascism making it legitimate news. The complaints above are sour grapes against Pat c, and those who would seek to save St Pauli and stamp out the nazi presence on football terraces. Give nazis the boot, not St Pauli. I think some of the editorial of indymedia, have allowed their personal views and prejudices to get in the way of making an unbiased objective decision to censor. How are we to know about anti fascist campaigns if news about it is constantly censored?.
Posts by refusenik jews are also censored, giving the overall impression that all Israelis are of the same opinion as hardline IDF right wing israelis.
My post about the Cochrane family speaking in the Guardian was censored too. The Cochrane family did actually say those words and are of those opinions, you can check the saturday Guardian newspaper to verify this. I didn't add much to the article, because I only wanted to convey the Cochrane families views, which I didn't want to distort in any way. The same post on Indymedia UK was not censored.
Pup representative Billy McCaughey, is a bloke with integrity, recently he spoke out against PSNI attempts at recruiting informants, by highlighting the case of an Antrim teenage car thief, who was told by the PSNI, that if he kept an eye on loyalist community activists for the PSNI, he would have the car theft and joy riding charges against him dropped.

by James McKenna Wed May 28, 2003 07:56

yeah we get the message. there is a great little football team in Hamburg!

Deleted three times! This shite has been up here non stop for days . Maybe it should be a permanent feature while the Palestinian children shot yesterday goes unmentioned. I see where your coming from . So how should we salute your German football team?

Why not support your local football team?

by pat c Wed May 28, 2003 10:01

Aidan

I take your point that a letter writing campaign might be more effective but I do think in this case, the petition will be delivered and Celtic, conscious of their image will take supportive action.

Risible you are just that.

James, I'm surprised at you, this is in support of a team whos fans are renowned for fighting against fascism and are truly internationalist. After the Brit Fasch & lumpens riot in 95 in Lansdowne. St Pauli fans came over for the following match against "Northern Ireland" fully prepared to stand with Irish fans against any loyalists or fascists who might try it on.

by ??? Wed May 28, 2003 10:15

R Isible

"you complain about the SWP-split post (which was deleted numerous times FYI and now is not being deleted because of the number of comments on it) and your response is to throw up a petition?"

...a petition that seems to have a significant number of comments on it!

by Mags Wed May 28, 2003 13:19

We can call a halt to this now. Despite Aiden's claim that:

"Secondly e-mail petitions are a waste of time. They don't work. Not even printing them out, they're not effective, and give people the illusion that a mouse click can save the world (or whatever) discouraging pratical work."

Celtic announced this morning that it had been agreed to hold a friendly with St Pauli this summer. Venue and date yet to be arranged.

So the e-mail petition - which Celtic were aware of - in addition to letters, phone calls, personal lobbying, etc. DID WORK.

I would also point out that in the past few months Celtic fans have also, via massive e-mail campaign s:
a) Got the Wolfe Tones to the top of the BBC's 'Best Ever Song' listing
b) Forced news megacorp Fox to apologise for it's disgusting insult to the memory of Bobby Sands.

Of course none of this is half as important as scuffling on behalf of in-fighting Trots in the Antipodes. Scarily some of us live in the real world though. Can be nice sometimes :)

by Andrew Wed May 28, 2003 15:12

"Got the Wolfe Tones to the top of the BBC's 'Best Ever Song' listing"

Err that was pretty funny but I don't think I'd call it any more 'important' then what the trots are up to down under.

More amusing maybe?

by pat c Wed May 28, 2003 16:10

sometimes humour is the only thing which keeps us going, so maybe it was more important. Anyway it was good to see the brits squirm and try and change the rules afterwards.