New figures prove bin tax is a double tax

by Niall OB - Greens Tue Sep 30, 2003 12:57

The latest available figures (2001) for waste collection in the Dublin region are as follows.

(Tonnes)
Household waste 441,039
Commercial waste 441,667
Street Cleaning 34,584

The national figures (2001) are as follows.

(Tonnes)
Household waste 1,468,834
Commercial waste 1,156,732
Street Cleaning 78,469

The total waste produced in Ireland excluding agricultural waste for 2001 was 17,384,194.
This figure includes many other categories of waste such as Construction and Demolition waste much of which is recycled in further constructions.

Local authorities are responsible for municipal waste. The 2% figure quoted above is not comparing like with like and is grossly misleading. It will not be taken seriously.

It would make much more sense to compare the commercial figures with the household figures.

For further information check out waste on the EPA website at www.epa.ie

by No double taxes - Dublin City Anti bin tax Campaign Tue Sep 30, 2003 14:35

If ever prove was needed that the Greens are basically comprised of; and consisting almost exclusively of very well to do business people and other upper middle class types than surely the above coment from Niall OB - Greens poves the point beyond doubt. Many of the Greens not only support these double tax service charges; but they also support the wholesale privatisation of public services. Anybody who proposes having the Greens as a part of a left alliance is a fool.

by stop the bin tax Tue Sep 30, 2003 14:39

The figures you quoted DO NOT include:
(1) Industrial Waste
(2) Agricultural Waste
(3) Building Waste.

They are merely the amount collected from small businesses by the normal collection service.

The 2% figure is accurate and no matter how you attempt to justify it, households are subsidising Big Business.

The bin tax means privatisation, increasing charges and MORE waste not less. It will also pave the way for incinerators (if they succeed it will be in no small measure to the GP who are acting as environmental cover for Govt. economic policy).

by Niall OB - Greens Tue Sep 30, 2003 15:28

I would consider the figures from the EPA to be reasonably accurate. The figure I quoted above of 17,384,194 does include industrial and building waste. You are quite wrong on that. It does not include agricultural waste which makes up the bulk of waste in this country. Agricultural waste is dealt with under a different cost structure to municipal waste. It is bogus to include it in one side of the equation and not in the other. That is not as you suggest right wing propeganda it is basic mathematics.

by pat c Tue Sep 30, 2003 15:38

regardless of which figures are correct, the fact remains that the greens support bin taxes.

the green party want to introduce a bin tax wherby everyone would pay the same amount per kilo whether they were a high court judge or a bin collector.

that is what is known as a flat rate regressive tax.

by Mike Tue Sep 30, 2003 15:49

You will get nowhere unless you discuss this sort of thing rationally. Yelling about apples and organges makes no sense at all.

The Greens appear to be talking about the total of "bin waste" (waste handled by all "dust collecting" processes).

The anti-Greens appear to be discussing household bin waste as a precentage of ALL waste whether or not related to the "dust collecting" process. Now as a rural dweller myself (though not in Ireland) I'd call that a lot of b...s... about b...s... I mean in my day I've mucked out byres, and over here at least we didn't set it out in bins but plowed it back into the field -- and I'm willing to bet your farmers do the same. If you want to count the weight of THAT waste in, to get a fair precentage you're going to have to count in the tonnage of the toilet flushes of your urbanites.

About the other charge being made, that Greens aren't Reds, that they are concerned about the environment too instead of JUST social justice issues between humans, that they care about what ALL of us are doing to the environment -- well "guilty as charged" if you consider that a fault. Look, many of you "Reds" have a touching faith that solving the social injustice problem, doing away with capitalism, will solve ALL problems. No more alchoholism, no more wife beating or child abuse, no more destruction of the environment. Others of us lack this quasi religious faith. Yes we are concerned about social justice issues, but not to the exclusion of other problems which we see as being "beyond" the fight against capitalism.

Now, if you want to disagree with the Greens about the relative importance of which problems should be tackled first, fine. But I do NOT see you taking the position with the Greens that they should FIRST help you with the social justice issue and THEN you'll see what you can do about the envirnmental problem. You seem instead to be trying to tell them that THEIR concerns about the environment are meaningless.

Let me tell YOU something. There is no social justice on a dead planet. Not unless you wish to count the equality of the grave.

by Chekov Tue Sep 30, 2003 15:53

If so why are you throwing misleading statements around about the production of waste?

"Construction and Demolition waste much of which is recycled in further constructions."

According to the EPA figures, In Fingal council area alone, of 1,158,437 tonnes of construction waste managed, 1,091,119 tonnes are landfilled (95%). Which is pretty much the same as the entire volume of household waste produced in the WHOLE COUNTRY. But I suppose you don't really want to talk about these polluters, sure that might get ye a bit of bad press now.

by Niall ÓB - Greens Tue Sep 30, 2003 16:18

The figures you are using are for 1998. I am quoting the 2001 figures. According to these figures the total disposal of C&D waste in 2001 is 1,250,279 tonnes and the total recovery of C&D waste for the same year is 2,364,866.

Check it out on,
http://www.epa.ie/Waste/NWD/4.%20CD%20Waste%20Factsheet.pdf

I am not suggesting for one minute that these figures are in any way wonderful, they are not. However, C&D waste is charged for seperately from municipal waste. The cost of its disposal by private construction firms is not paid for by the local authority. In other words the charges for disposal of C&D waste are not included in the E10million figure quoted at the top of the page.

As for me being a Green, I stood for election in the last general election in Galway West. You may notice that the tonnage of C&D waste for Galway City included in the 1998 report you are quoting from is 0. (Odd that)

by sfwatcher Tue Sep 30, 2003 16:22

From An Phoblacht...

It was in Sligo Corporation that Sinn Féin had a much more difficult task. The Fine Gael and Labour grouping who had in the past supported and imposed service charges were this time opposing them in an opportunist attempt to force Sinn Féin, who hold the Mayoral seat in the council, into accepting service charges or see the council dissolved.

Sinn Féin's three councillors voted for the estimates including a service charge, but managed to have the charge reduced for 1,200 households and completely waived for 500 more in the town as well as ensuring that the refuse services were not privatised.

Sligo Mayor and Sinn Féin councillor Sean MacManus explained the decision by saying: ``In an effort to avert this ruinous situation (abolition of the corporation), with increased charges, job losses and downgrading of services, Sinn Féin set about obtaining the best possible deal within the constraints of the budget available. We have been successful on a number of fronts. We have safeguarded the service provided and the jobs created by that service. We negotiated a reduction of over 20% in the increase sought and most importantly we have successfully retained the waiver system for over 1,200 less wealthy households. In addition to that my colleagues Arthur Gibbons and Chris MacManus have secured conditions ensuring that all old age pensioners, living alone who qualify for a waiver will not have to pay any charge for their bin collection.

``All of these are positive elements and clearly show that Sinn Féin is prepared to take responsible decisions and to give positive leadership to the people of Sligo. Our actions are in stark contrast to those councillors who would drag down our city and who insist on sending out negative messages''.

http://www.irlnet.com/aprn/archive/2000/November30/30sfon.html

by fuinseog Wed Oct 01, 2003 00:16

Hi 'no double taxes'. You wrote:
"Many of the Greens not only support these double tax service charges; but they also support the wholesale privatisation of public services."

This sounds unlikely to me. Have you any evidence for this claim? (if its not true it may be deleted by an editor)