'Maybe We Make Kettles' - says Tanaiste!

by we haven't gone away you know. - guild of axe grinders and operative provision VIII Thu Mar 31, 2005 15:40

-on the decision by the USA to sell an awful lot of arms to Pakistan,
-or Spain to sell an awful lot of arms to Venezuala (incidently placing it as second to the UK as the largest purchaser of spanish weaponry)
-or the decision of Europe to sell an awful lot of arms to China
-or the decision of the USA to sell an awful lot of arms to Taiwan.
-or the decision of the Ukraine to sell scuds to Iran.

its time to remember that the military industrial complexes of many countries continue to sell weapons to states in conflict. And it is time to remember that operative provision VIII of the European Council Code of Conduct on productions of arms for export requires the members of the council and the Union (which copperfastens old operative VIII btw) to be honest about their supply and demand.

And Ireland's trade and development network to make the rich richer and keep the poor fed shite have indeed played their role in the manufacturing of arms components or at the very least *not played* their role as global movers and shakers to bring their errant "peers" in the internatiional community into the *squeeky clean* status they claim for themselves.

little factoids-

Israel is supplied by every European arms manufacturing state.

Ghana has been supplied with eight bullets for everyone of its citizens.

London C.A.A.T. have just published their annual report for which they (Campaign Against the Arms Trade) surveyed 99 local authority pension funds in England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland as part of its Clean Investment Campaign 2005.
read it @ link-
http://www.caat.org.uk/information/press.php?url=currentprs

Meanwhile on the larger scale, European acitivists interested in learning more about the Euro-Arms trade and what they can do to monitor, investigate and curtail it are invited to the European Network against Arms meeting in London, Friday 20th to Sunday 22nd May.

For further information, contact:
Ann Feltham
Campaign Against Arms Trade
11 Goodwin Street
London N4 3HQ
UK

You can see some national reports at this page-
http://www.antenna.nl/enaat/
They're pdf files, but you'll get a model of how to get into your anti-arms trade detector van brimming with antennas and "collate" "observe".
For that Mammy is what we do. "chalk it all up" on your permanent record & polish it till it squeeks.

Here's amnesty international on the Euro arms trade-
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGIOR610072004?open&of=ENG-390

Ireland (republic) is conspicously "squeekily so", absent from the reports. A land where fireworks are soon to be given a new offence of "sale and supply" would one think have found the honesty to admit to the manufacture of "small electronic components" or offered some word on investment share profile / portfolios in such stock. The only connection we have for the moment is Ryanair and Boeing. ¿or is it?

As we say in Hogworts ".:. tell the truth - shame the divil - hasten the regime change .:. "

One bunch of people who were regime changed are the Spanish PP, they happily sold Cuba arms during Aznar's stint, and broke the Euro-rules on supply to conflict zones but now protest the sale of arms by ZP to Venezuala now "for being linked to Cuba". Great isn't it how they squeek?
They want to strengthen the ethical controls at €U level along with their Irish chums Fine Gael. Which is what you get after a regime change, lots of "morality". Thats why regime changes are good for the politicians you know, gives them a chance to redeem themselves. We may save the Mammy Granny Harney of the eggs and school dinners and kettles yet.

by Sai Fri Jun 11, 2004 15:58

I have worked in the past for a company which has helped fix designs for military equipment (Rand Worldwide, Dublin 24). As soon as I found out this went on, I resigned. I told my manager I had a problem with this aspect of my work, and then I told everyone I knew that this was part of the work done by the company. Should I have stayed silent simply because they were my bosses? The priorities and morals here of this argument seem a little confused, and I genuinely suspect you just may not have thought your argument through before posting it. But don't be scared to change your opinion on the basis of facts and/or logic.
It would seem to me that you are trying to be fair, which is commendable, but still ignoring some home truths. The government has been allowing American forces to use our services against the will of the people. This was repeatedly demonstrated by the huge turnout during anti-war protests in this country, and the already proven issues surrounding neutrality as a right of our nation. The government should not go against the will of the people, yet they do. Should we stick by our loyalty to our government or should we do what we think is right for the people of our nation? I think we deserve to do the best we can for each other, and really it doesn't matter even what nation - the bottom line is, try and be as fair as possible and as tolerant as possible with each other.
Arms are not fair nor are they tolerant. As an unwilling accessory myself, I am furious I was unaware of the fact I was involved in helping a company who profits from war. If people don't know, how can they make a real choice? I look forward to finding out more about who funds what simply so I can stop supporting them by boycotting products. I can manage without an avocado or too, but I cannot manage without my life. And I need the help of people you consider should be sacked from their jobs for speaking the simple truth about what they do.
I am sure this will not be the last comment on what you have written either....

by - Mon Jun 07, 2004 12:49

at the links.

by David Sat Jun 05, 2004 19:42

Total nonesense.

Wish people would think before they open their mouths (type)

by Phil Boylan Sat Jun 05, 2004 19:26

But its true, Guns don't kill people, its a persons intent to use the gun to kill someone that is at fault. True without the gun it would be more difficult, but that detracts from the fact. I don't see anyone going on about Knives killing people, in fact Knives are used more often to kill people. Or Cars. You can use pretty much anything to kill someone, but you don't see people harping on about those aspects.

by pc Sat Jun 05, 2004 18:26

guns don't kill people, people do...?

by Phil Boylan Sat Jun 05, 2004 18:14

The Nuke was a deterrant in the old days, because everyone was fed illogical conclusions. If a Nuke were to be used they argued that it would destroy mankind and some even claimed it would destroy the planet. Truth be told, a nuke would not be that disastrous on the whole. Th eplanet would be affected about as much as you would be affected by a mosquito bite, irritated and dealt with.

Kim Jong Il, is actually not as insane as people claim. While is definitely an eccentric and a mass-murdering, on the broad aspect of the word, scumbag, hw is actually playing a very careful game of chicken with the west. He will lose inevitably as all great dictatorships do, but in the mean time he is sastifying his needs. The Prick.

The Nuke is definitely not the ultimate weapon system, it is too OTT. Its hitting a fly with a sledgehammer. The most useful weapon system would be the smart bomb, when it works properly. The GBU-28 is a great weapon and when it works well can save countless lives, as is the JDAM.

You see my argument is that it is irrational to blame the weapons manufacturers for what their clients do with the systems. If a man gets drunk and drives and in the process mows down ten kids, is it Toyotas fault, No. It was his choice to do with the vehicle as he pleased. The same way as it is Americas, or Israels or the Palestinians choice to use weapons to target innocent civilians. I don't think rail-roading the companies out of town will do anything, but remove much needed jobs.

by Lone gunman Sat Jun 05, 2004 14:41

that could prevent war already exists.It is called a nucelar arsenal.Both East and West had and still have them,well maybe the Russians are flogging theirs off to terrorist groups,because they are so poor and the great communist experiment failed miserably and couldnt even pay their troops who were/are in charge of the weapons and components.When you are hungry and poor,greater morals of what or where the end product goes,or is used by whom or what is very irrevelant to you.
The bomb assured us peace for fourty years,as neither side wanted to be totall obliberated by the other,so they fought wars by proxy all over the globe.Trouble is now the head bangers of the world are getting the bomb.Where at one time it was under proper control under more or less stable govts.Loons like Bin ladin or Kim Jong or Saddo are going nuke.Yet these very dangerous idiots are seemingly the very ones the antiwar groups seem to venerate as paragons of human virtue.

Naive to suggest that even with withdrawing the arms subisidaries which both the West and East give to their industries that this will end the arms trade.Arms trade is greater only to food on this planet in turnover PA.

by Phil Boylan Sat Jun 05, 2004 14:05

Jeff, Id do what your heart tell syou to do. Id actually take the job in Holland myself, but also keep an eye out for better positions. Holland is one of the greatest countries in the world, every time I visit Eindhoven or 's-Hertogenbosch, I have a great time. No drugs just lots of good food and drink.

I still do not understand why people can get all bent out of shpae coz a company makes a weapons system. If it were not for the Apache attack helicopter, the gulf war in 1991 could have gone very wonr, very quickly. They were the forst ALLIED aircraft to attack Iraqi early warning radar systems and helped the ALLIES liberate Kuwait. But the again most of you guys don't like Kuwait either coz they have nasty nasty leaders. Making such weapons components, while it can lead to them being misused, i.e Israel attacking the poor palestinians militant murderous leaders, also helps to stop fuckwads like Saddam from getting to big for his boots.

Moral dilemma, if a weapons manufacturer was to come up with a weapons system that could prevent war completely, the ultimate deterrant, would you protest it, even though by its manufacture and possible use, all further wars would be unthinkable??

by moonwolf Sat Jun 05, 2004 00:31

Actually Glen dimplex operate out of Dunleer, Co. Louth as well, so we do make "Southern Kettles" of course Louth is just next door to Meath, home of Timoney (of armoured cars fame) who are exporters of military equiptment overseas!!! wakey waakey Mary!!

by David Fri Jun 04, 2004 15:58

Unless Mary was thinking about Glen Dimplex, which operates from Newry, north of the border..

Not doin too well are we Minister for Trade Enterprise and Employment if you think we're making things we're not and thinking we don't make things that we are....

by jeff Fri Jun 04, 2004 15:25

I was just wondering what would be a more moral choice for me to undertake; return to Ireland and get a ok paying job in the weapons factory, thus contributing to the Irish economy and helping the great nation.

Or...

Doing a few stints as part of a live sex show in Amsterdam's red light district, in front of drunken English hooligans and German swinging couples off their heads on coke.

I don't know what to do! If I choose the latter, I might go to hell! But it would be less hours than the weapons factory. And, er, more fun...

I know I should contribute to the Harneyite economy, and be less selfish. Oooo, the dilemmas! I'm sure memvers of the Sindo would have me shot for even considering the latter course

by Paul Fri Jun 04, 2004 01:32

Thanks for the report Tim, it reminded me what annoyed me in the first place. I've een gone off the point for suh a long time.

by Ali la Pointe Thu May 27, 2004 14:40

You will have read the similar accusation of people in Derry opposing Raytheon being Anti Jobs. The row rumbles on.

The Derry journal have an online "poll" which has been up for a record amount of time and which is seeing an unusually high level of traffic (raytheon employees? - Shurely not!) any way don't forget to cast your vote by going to

http://www.derryjournal.com/index.php

excercise your vote!

by Anonymous Thu May 27, 2004 10:50

Sorry Phil, when I asked the question:-

"If a weapons manufacturer was to set up in Ireland tomorrow and was going to employ 10,000 or 100,000 (or whatever figure) people. If the weapons produced by this company were responsible for killing just one person over the next 20 years - would you be for allowing that company set up?"

I obviously totally forgot to mention the one person being a totally INNOCENT person - say like your mother or brother or mine.

And when I say "one". We know of course that in reality thousands upon thousands of totally innocent people are killed EVERY YEAR as a result of modern weaponary. But I think even one innocent life over a twenty year period, or whatever period, is enough.

And there is also the opportunity cost in terms of lives of arms manufacture. I cant remember the figures off hand, but the arms trade accounts for billions, indeed trillions of expenditure ever year. I think statistically, if only half of this money was used to solve the worlds most pressing problems it would nearly totally solve all world issues such as malnutirition, starvation, poverty, malaria, Aids, third world debt etc etc. So how many totally innocent lives indirectly (or some might say directly) lose their lives becuase of the arms trade??

What an horrific blight it is on the human race - that rather than save millions of innocent lives we go and spend the world's income on killing millions of innocent lives.

by Bloody Mary Thu May 27, 2004 10:38

Galway company designs nuclear weapons simulator

http://www.nsd.ie/htm/news/story.php3?id=1014

A high performance technical computing group at Compaq's facility in Galway is involved in the development of the world's biggest supercomputer. Compaq has secured a contract worth over USD 200 million from the National Nuclear Security Administration at the US Department of Energy to build a system for simulating the performance of aging nuclear weapons.

Dublin company designs missile components.

http://www.ceva-dsp.com/about/locations.php

"We chose to work with ParthusCeva because of NavStream's unique accuracy and rapid location acquisition capabilities of less than three seconds," said Dave Powell, NAVAIR's Joint Advanced Missile Instrumentation Project (JAMI) Deputy Director. "We have a long and successful partnership with ParthusCeva, and their ability to offer a complete GPS solution is of key importance to our ongoing research, test and evaluation programs."

http://www.us.design-reuse.com/news/news6044.html

by Eoin Dubsky Thu May 27, 2004 00:01

We've already got a special fund for converting arms trade to life-giving work: public funds. If the arms trade wasn't so terribly heavily subsidized by the state, it would soon disappear. According to the Federation of American Scientists, the US arms trade is the most heavily subsidized industry after agriculture. (http://www.fas.org/asmp/fast_facts.htm)

If public funds were directed to the public good instead, companies involved in the arms trade would redirect or bust, and communities would have the financial resources to create sustainable alternatives to those corporations completely.

by .,.,.,. Wed May 26, 2004 23:22

we should set up a fund a pay for these people so desperate for jobs the have to mades guns, to find another job... lets set up a fund

by Phil Boylan Wed May 26, 2004 22:31

If an arms company like say Boeing or Northrop were to open a plant in Ireland, I would be interested in what they are producing. They produce systems that are used in commercial aircraft as well as weapons systems. As for if their weapons systems were used to kill even one person, it would depend on the person. If it were used to kill Ossama Bin Laden or the North Korean Dictator or someone of equal status, that I feel is a threat to world peace, then I would not be concerned. If it were used to target innocent people intentionally I would join you at a rally, if it malfunctioned and killed innocent people I would probably join you on a rally, depending on the FULL circumstances.

I am aware, BTW that G W Bush and his group have been responsible for more damage being done to world peace than any other group in a long time. I don't like the man, I don't like the majority of people who back him. I look forward to hopefully having them leave office soon. But I won't protest him. I neither have the time nor desire to stand out and show my disapproval. The man does not care what I believe, he doesn't know me and he wouldn't listen to me even if he did know me. I am not in a fantastic positiont to do much damage to his trip here.

I will admit before the war started I was pro-war, very much pro-war. I believed, like many Americans, that Iraq would be better off after it all. I was wrong. I admit that the war should only have gone ahead with UN backing or with certain written agreements as to how long the Americans would stay and what their roles would be. But at the same time, I firmly believe that while it is incredibly shit in Iraq at the mo, at least we got rid of Saddam and his regime, now we need to help rebuild the country. Get the US out and bring in UN troops. Help the iraqis, and after a particular amount of time, pull out and see what happens.

I condemn the Americans treating the Iraqis prisoners the way they have/do. But I also know that sometimes on some people it is necessary. I don't mean on your average Joe Soap. If you have a terrorist leader, then I do not believe that they are exempt from forced removal of info. Hell they'd do as bad.

As for our government. I do not particularly like Bertie and Harney and Mc Creevey, but at the same time, I will admit that they are the people the MAJORITY of people voted for and as such we have to await until we are in a better position to remove em from office if need be. I do NOT agree with labelling them War Criminals, it cheapens the use of the term for real war-criminals, like Saddam, Bush, Milosevic. By consistantly calling em War Criminals, it leads some of the public to believe the Anti-War movement to be nothing more than raving lunatics.

The use of Shannon I am for, we have done it for years and it is good for our economy in a region that can fluctuate. The troops travelling through Shannon were on their way to Iraq/Afghanistan, but that does not make it a war port. The Americans would not need Shannon if they wanted to, Air-Refueling is just as possible, or landing in an RAF base or Frankfurt are perfectly alternative options. By them using Shannon we have a commonality with the country and are on good ground to maybe help make certain changes.

Finally I condemn the deaths of any innocent people in Iraq/Afghanistan. I find it horrible that it happened, but I also know that in armed conflicts, invariably, innocents get caught up. I also condemn the deaths of any foreign workers, aid or security or otherwise and of any coalition troops in Iraq/Afghanistan. These deaths should not be happening. If they are targeted intentionally then the people need to be brought to justice. If they are accidental then investigations should be launched.

by Anonymous Wed May 26, 2004 18:58

Good luck Eoin!! I thought that The Last Word is not normally phone in - but I could be wrong on that.

Send us a report!

by Eoin Dubsky Wed May 26, 2004 18:32

Thanks for that report Tim. Informative and entertaining as ever!
I'll be on The Last Word at 6-ish today, and was supposed to be sharing the half-hour with FF MEP-hopeful Liam Aylward. It all looked great, until his office phoned back TodayFM to say that he wouldn't share a panel with me. Shame... I had one or two questions to ask him about the Government's "common sense" policies on waste management (incinerators, anti-democratic decision making, greenwash, etc.), foreign policy, arms trade, software patents, economic policies, and other items. Maybe he'll phone in, I think it's a phone-in show?

by David Wed May 26, 2004 18:01

Why do we need to employ people just for the sake of employment?

What the implication is that you can respect a politician who is very efficiant at doing exactly what you don't want them to do. Hitler was very efficient at killing Jews, pol pot was very efficient at killing Cambodians... I think we would all agree that it would have been better if those S.S troops were unemployed instead of carrying out those tasks so well

Employment is a very very bad thing if people are using their labour to murder and destroy.
There are lots of things that people can devote themselves to that doesn't have such negative consequences, and even if there were more people than tasks, instead of just creating jobs for the sake of it, why not reduce the working week and people could share jobs.
(economically that would not have a negative effect as prices are affected by ability and willingness to pay far more than cost of production)

by Anonymous Wed May 26, 2004 15:34

Your question:-

"I was just wondering as to what is your problem with the arms industry. I mean I trust you do realise that we need to employ people"

I take your point Phil. But of couse everyone realises the need and absolute imporatance of employing people. However the majority of people on this site realize the infinitely greater importance of saving innocent lives.

If a weapons manufacturer was to set up in Ireland tomorrow and was going to employ 10,000 or 100,000 (or whatever figure) people. If the weapons produced by this company were responsible for killing just one person over the next 20 years - would you be for allowing that company set up?

Regards,

by curious Wed May 26, 2004 12:57

The previous posts clutter powers have been severly reduced because the poster seems not to understand that you can scroll up and down the screen at will, ahhh haha, basic grasp of the most simple elements of this computer technology seem to be beyond some people. I have not had the joy of greeting any politicians yet, :(

by Gaillimhed Wed May 26, 2004 10:27

A 1930s US Senate investigation into the role of the international arms trade in fomenting war and intervention. The Nye Committee, named after the senator from North Dakota who chaired it, probed deep into the shadow world of arms dealers and munitions corporations.

Report of the Special Committee on Investigation of the Munitions Industry (The Nye Report), U.S. Congress, Senate, 74th Congress, 2nd sess., February 24, 1936, pp. 3-13.
Extracts:, read the full reort at
http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/nye.htm

"The committee finds, further, that not only are such transactions highly unethical, but that they carry within themselves the seeds of disturbance to the peace and stability of those nations in which they take place. In some nations, violent changes of administration might take place immediately upon the revelation of all details of such transactions".
"The committee finds, further, that the intense competition among European and American munitions companies with the attendant bribery of governmental officials tends to create a corrupt officialdom, and thereby weaken the remaining democracies of the world at their head.

The committee finds, further, that the constant availability of munitions companies with competitive bribes ready in outstretched hands does not create a situation where the officials involved can, in the nature of things, be as much interested in peace and measures to secure peace as they are in increased armaments.

The committee finds also that there is a very considerable threat to the peace and civic progress of other nations in the success of the munitions makers and of their agents in corrupting the officials of any one nation and thereby selling to that one nation an armament out of proportion to its previous armaments. Whether such extraordinary sales are procured through bribery or through other forms of salesmanship, the effect of such sales is to produce fear, hostility, and greater munitions orders on the p art of neighboring countries, culminating in economic strain and collapse or war.

The committee elsewhere takes note of the contempt of some of the munitions companies for those governmental departments and officials interested in securing peace, and finds here that continual or even occasional corruption of other governments naturally leads to a belief that all governments, including our own, must be controlled by economic forces entirely."

by Major Woody Wed May 26, 2004 10:20

Phil you might be interested in an employment opportunity I found advertised on the web

---
Chemical engineer sought

Our clients, a well know international terrorist group, seek a qualified chemical engineer with experience in the manufacture of nerve gases. Knowledge of the effects of releasing such gas in urban landscapes would be an advantage. Salary 45-70k depending on experience.

The successful applicant would be expected to advise and insist in the production of such agents. There would be no expectation that they would take part in the delivery or deployment process.

---

by damien moran Wed May 26, 2004 02:50

Well Done Tim.
Fo those interested in voicing their concern please visit the link below:

http://www.afri.buz.org/get-active.htm

by LED Wed May 26, 2004 00:58

Scary Mary trying to trick you Tim, as Iosaf said I too would be feeling queasy, to say the least, on encountering this woman, she voted for Irelands participation in this war along with all her fellow dollar- kissing crew..... guilty. I haven't come across any FFers or PDers yet on the march, but I hope to greet them as well as you did :)

N.B. these people will say anything to get a vote or not, as Tim's tale proves...... more of.

by Phil Boylan Tue May 25, 2004 23:42

I was just wondering as to what is your problem with the arms industry. I mean I trust you do realise that we need to employ people. Also do you know for a fact that a weapons system either Hardware or Software developed in Ireland has ever been responsible for the death of any innocent civilians. I visited the Analog site when I was in college and was fascinated in their production plant. I am aware they make more products, in fact alot more than to envelope the limited 'Dual-Purpose' Hardware they produce for amongst other things the Apache. But the Apache Attack Helicopter is a great weapon and is very effective for preventing terrorists or opposing forces from advancing and perhaps murdering innocents. If the Israelis are using it to kill innocent people in Palestine, then that is their problem and America needs to stop supplying them with the Helicopter.

If Analog said they didn't want to build the Hardware anymore, then we lose jobs and the company [McDonnell Douglas] moves production to Germany/India or somewhere else. The systems are not stopped being produced, the Palestinians are still dying, and the Irish are out of jobs.

Do not forget that the Apache has been used to kill many Palestinian terrorists who are planning on attacking innocent Israelis. Or are Israelis not as innocent as the Palestinians??

As for your neighbour providing you with information about the plant, if he gets caught he could face the sack. And quite rightly so, if he is providing you with this info, he could be selling other info to his Analog competitors. Which should get him the sack immediately. Loyalty to your boss should be factored in. If these people have helped you and provided you with a good standard of living, then you should at least show some gratitude.

As for confronting Mary, I was unaware that she was a war-criminal. Irrespective of whether you believe in the use of Shannon or not, she has not been convicted by ANY court of being a War-Criminal. As such it is not fair to call her a War-Criminal. It would be akin to me calling you a paedophile or something like that. You have never been convicted so I have no right doing so. Please stop calling the Government war-criminals and then freaking when you get unfair labelling in the papers, or unfair treatment in the courts.

See you across the lines when Bush is here.

by Ray McInerney Tue May 25, 2004 22:22

Ireland's military use exports in 2002 accounted for €34m and "dual-use" exports were of the order of €4.5bn, the report notes.

It names multinational companies including Data Device Corporation and Analog Devices as major players in the "dual-use" field, and licensed production overseas agreements made by Irish-owned Timoney Technology Group, as cases where companies' products, it claimed, were proving difficult to track.

Amnesty called for the government to make a new EC Trade Regulation a priority which would ban electro-shock weapons. It claims that at least one Irish company has been linked to selling the weapons in Cambodia.

by Ray McInerney Tue May 25, 2004 22:09

Keith Piggott gave Jim Hickey the Pd candidate for ward 3 a right scolding last night for not knowing that there was an education initiative (LCBEI) in Limerick for the marginalize areas i.e. Southill and Moyross.

by iosaf Tue May 25, 2004 21:36

I reckon I'd break out in a sweat if I found myself surrounded by PDs. Twas one of the reasons I never went near Bellfield as a kid.
I hope you washed afterwards, ears, head, feet, hands, the complete ritual ablutions.

I'd like to upload the BCN anti-War symbol coz it's a bit different to the one you use over in Erron, and on a deep pyschic level is more effective, in that it not only proscribes bombs, but if you look @ it carefully, you will see it is also a "Big Evil Eye".
And we know who's big evil eye it is.
don't we?
yes.
we do.
Mammy Harney and Ltd Co. are enslaved to this Big Evil Eye. Don't forget that.
Tim, don't go near them again, especially not in a Tesco, I'm only glad you're still around to tell the tale, and not on your way to being a packed lunch or something even less imaginable.

no to the evil eye of Balor! no to the evil eye of the spawn of Satan! no to the devils concubines! WE DON't FORGET!

by David Tue May 25, 2004 21:28

inspirational Tim, congratulations!

by Anonymous Tue May 25, 2004 20:53

Interesting report Tim. Nice one for taking on a delegation of PD's and for posing these most important of questions to the country's Tanaiste.