SWP to launch new front

by Elron Hubby Wed Sep 07, 2005 00:59

The full article from socialist worker can be found is here http://www.swp.ie/socialistworker/2005/sw247/sw-247-11.htm

Insider makes a convincing case that the SWP is planning to launch this Davitt League as a kind of new left organisation but I am left wondering if this is just based on extrapolation from the socialist worker article or if he/she has access to some other information. The key bits of the article are as follows...

*The Davitt League was launched on August 16th, in Castlebar
*A meeting will be held in Dublin on October 21st to bring together campaigns and individuals who are interested in being part of such a movement.
*The Davitt League is an exciting development which could be the basis for the emergence of a new left movement in Ireland.
*Maura Harrington is quoted as saying “At the meeting on October 21 we hope that there will be a very wide representation of people’s movements from all over the country. It’s envisaged that there will be branches of the Davitt League set up all over the country from the national meeting. Whether or not the League would field its own candidates or endorse candidates as a group remains to be seen."

So just how central to all of this are the SWP? Are they grabbing the opportunity given by an initiative from Rossport? Or are they the driving force behind all of this?

The background context is that the SWP have been banging on for years now about the need for a new left alliance/party/movement while the rest of the left ignored them. Just when it seemed like somebody might be interested, the Collins/Healy initiative seems to have excluded them (what has happened to that by the way? there hasn't been a peep out of them since the first press release). That situation was never going to last forever. The SWP were always going to launch something.

by 2Questions Wed Sep 07, 2005 01:19

Will this be a 32 County or a partitioned organisation? Aren't Sinn Fein going to be a bit pissed off because they have been courting the Rossport people?

by round and round, round and round Wed Sep 07, 2005 10:17

SWP did something similar in 2001 with a group called Globalise Resistance. Its aim was to unite a lot of different left groups under a single anti-capitalist banner. There was a similar interest in anti-corporate issues in the country around that time (relatively speaking). Although this was slightly different in that there was no electoral strategy, it faded away pretty quickly, resurfacing occasionally at times when it suited, such as pre-Evian G8 or just after Mayday 2004.

I wouldnt worry about it much, but yes the sad thing is you will get new people joining up to it and leaving soon again, disillusioned and not involved in any decision making process. This has been happening for years now, people will just have to get used to it and work around it.

by Martin - swp Wed Sep 07, 2005 10:47

Plenty of inaccuracies and poison in the above misinformation contributed by anonymistas. Not least that the Davitt League was neither initiated nor named by the swp. But of course we are happy to support it as we are to support any intitiative that leads to to a fighting and untited left. Some links to follow would be www.respectcoalition.org for Britain and the latest issue of the British Socialist Worker worker for articles on left unity in France and Germany at www.socialistworker.co.uk

by {Belfast} Wed Sep 07, 2005 11:06

Spot on,


'Instead the Irish SWP has been restricted to trying to build a political front from single issue campaigns, of which the most successful has been the IAWM. The problem they have faced with this is that the IAWM has no purchase in working class communities and has alienated the direct .action/libertarian section of the anti-war movement which is dominant outside of Dublin. Other campaigns that might provide a possible foundation, such as the anti bin tax or the various anti racist campaigns are not really suitable because the SWP do not dominate and these contain many experienced politicos, wise to the party's manipulation'.


Round and Round,

Correct,

' wouldnt worry about it much, but yes the sad thing is you will get new people joining up to it and leaving soon again, disillusioned and not involved in any decision making process. This has been happening for years now, people will just have to get used to it and work around ,

And Martin, what are the 'plenty of inaccuracies apart from the one you said. I would though agree with both the statements raised above in their entirety.

by D Wed Sep 07, 2005 11:39

Should have put beside belfast {D} as so regulars know who I am, as cannot use full name presently. Glad to see Martin from the SWP prepared to engage - hope he will not be scared of by the party whip. Looking forwarded to engaging with you my friend.

by Insider Wed Sep 07, 2005 12:41

Sorry to let you down Martin, this piece is not based on speculation but hard fact. The source for my information is a member of the SWP, whose identity, needless to say Im not going to reveal. I know you are in the full flush of memberitis, selling papers, leafleting, defending every dot and comma, but maybe you might pause to think that there is substance to what opponents of the SWP say. Some day you will become disillusioned with the endlessly recycled dictatorship of Kieran Allen and sadly acknowledge that truth. I just hope that you retain your obvious enthusiasm and commitment to progressive politics, once free of the party line.

by Martin - swp Wed Sep 07, 2005 13:01

Only disappointed that you continue to attack the swp in such a sadly cliched fashion. Would be much more impressed by some original critique. Obviously picked up all your hackneyed rubbish from other anonymous left bashers.
Whoever your 'secret source' (oh how cloak and dagger, or is it an imajinary friend?) he's taking you for a ride. Everything we know about the davitt league is in our paper. We didn't initiate but we are supporting it and we hope that other reality based activists will do so also. Cheerio now.

by KA Wed Sep 07, 2005 13:03

"...we hope that other reality based activists will do so also."

You know according to KA there are no other 'reality' based activist other than the SWP.

by Reality Check Wed Sep 07, 2005 14:18

The Davitt League is not an SWP front, nor an organisation whose creation they came up with, nor an organisation they control.

But it is an organisation they will try to take control of. No point getting upset abou it. As the scorpion said to the frog, 'it's in my nature'. They can't help it.

The reality is that activists interested in what the Davitt League stands for need to get involved and play their part while ensuring the role of the SWP is as minimal as possible.

by D Wed Sep 07, 2005 15:41

As Martin has said Cheerio I was not going to come back - but I just gotta on this one point.


Martin what exactly is a reality based activist {or a reality based Party}?

Even with my limited knowledge I would though assume it is an activist or party that seeks to actually deal with, and base their decisions on the reality of a given situation.

{ This rather than in preference to attempting to create their own wee reality - through either attempting to brush the reality under the carpet, through formula politics, by sheer revisionism, or even by pushing through absolutely astounding political somersaults, then denying it ever happened. etc etc etc. The list goes on, and on, and on}

And if you where to attempt to place the SWP leadership in that category {real and reality politics} then, 'Mate', seriously, seriously, don't even go there, but if you want to I will, have a wee bit of time before I go.

by E Wed Sep 07, 2005 16:15

spill the beans D, you know you want to. Why not spend some more time having a pop at the SWP.

Seems that since you found your new found freedom to write what you want you've used your artistic licence to write about your former 'captors'. Your fascination with the SWP is reaching worrying levels D. Have you nothing else to say about this cruel world we live in. Is KA really a bigger menace to society than Bush-led neo-liberalism?

by P Bob Wed Sep 07, 2005 16:19

"Is KA really a bigger menace to society than Bush-led neo-liberalism?"

For the left in Ireland he is. Bush is a god send. KA is devil sent.

by D Wed Sep 07, 2005 17:15

Tis true, I have found new found freedom and thoughts, and have indeed escaped the captors, of my mind. - No more ritual reciting and regurgitation of formulae and dictate.

Also I do and have had plenty to say about the world, as you would know, but still, if you want me to send you links to such - drop me a line.

Secondly apart from debate and discussion, I direct my attention, through such open media outlets {and I use many}, if I feel there is a pressing need or a reason to do so.

- Presently, I feel this, 'attempted' debate falls into one of those categories.

In this instance points where made, I agreed with them, other points where made and I disagreed, more over, I offered and still offer Martin a chance to come back. I fear though that that aul whip I once remember is still in usage, as his point that I had raised , they know, I can rip to shreds with relative ease with facts.

What I seek here, quite simply, is called open debate; unfortunately this is still a new phenomenon for some, which can and does create fear for them..


PS - I am unsure as to your reference to specifically KA, as I mention the ‘SWP leadership’, but that in itself is a telling statement from yourself, as is the ‘Bush lead neo –liberalism’.

Indeed your attempt to lift the carpet while attempting to get out the brush in relation to the debate I seek is obvious. More especially in relation to your question

‘Is KA really a bigger menace to society than Bush-led neo-liberalism? – which of course he is not


My friends, and comrades, debate should not be feared – but embraced, and when some who still fear it then embrace it, then much can and will move forward.

. Now have to go, but if Martin comes back will re -engage. D

by Gar Wed Sep 07, 2005 17:50

Why oh why, do people on the left seem intent on wasting time and energy on bitching about the SWP. Come on grow up I am not a member never was, never will be even had one or two run ins with them. But why are we wasting time on bitching, I am so sick of it I rarely look at Indy media anymore because it just becomes an argument who is more left! Just get out and organise for the Rossport 5 I don’t think they care who is organising for them as long as they get out.

by MV Wed Sep 07, 2005 18:07

From Socialist Worker:

“It is now time for such a people’s movement. It is a chance to get together and SET OUR OWN AGENDA and not that of the corporations. There is a lot of work and discussion necessary to further this project.”

Shure you couldn't make it up!

Will be watching with interest,
with wespect,
Masters Voice

by Fanny Wed Sep 07, 2005 18:15

The peoples agenda means just that the peoples agenda.
Now once the peoples names just happen to be Kieran, Eamonn, Richard, Marnie, Kevin, Brid, Dave, Aoife, Donal, Rory, Deirdre, Peadar, Sinead then your laughing.
Oh and anything Moslem is very cool.

by D Wed Sep 07, 2005 18:22

Sorry Gar, debate {bitching as you see it} and the lack of presently, is indeed important -

I would also disagree with your point of ' I don't care who is organising it' etc.

Such I have found is important both for the success - failure of a campaign, what one can expect out of a campaign, and as essentially how activists will be treated within a campaign, just to name a few issues.

Indeed that would have also been a priority issue on the question of 'reality based activism' if Martin had of came back

Finally Gar, ‘argument’ - and discussion I believe are also important. One of course needs to organise as a priority, but such various 'engagements' is just as essential.

Gar some may see it as, debate, others as discussion, others as argument, and others like yourself as bitching

- For me I say great, loads of view points, that's healthy.

You might not get that Gar, but many do

Indeed that is what open debate should all be about - .

Really must split- away to ‘get active’ – Signing off D

by Mick-Mall-Mur-A-Hurti-Gig Wed Sep 07, 2005 18:51

In a race track far, far away...

"Here we go now, coming around the first long furlong on this one. Martin has stepped up to the bait, we haven't seen balls like this from a Swapper on the course in some time! D pops into say hi, while Insider continues his attack. Reality Check comes in for a dig, and KA takes a swipe from the side of the race. D is back in full gallop at 2:41pm "As Martin has said Cheerio I was not going to come back - but I just gotta on this one point." He drops out for a brief moment, as E cheers him on from the stands. It could be anyones now, its 4:15pm and D looks like dropping out, "Now have to go, but if Martin comes back will re -engage. D" But wait whats this Gar and MV step up to the plate, can D leave this one alone and allow someone else to finish the thread? No! What's this? Galloping up the side, the sweat falling off his brow, its 5:22pm "Really must split- away to ‘get active’ – Signing off D" and he's back for the taking. And the champion is...the crowds go wild."

Back to the a much discussed but little understood reality.

Seriously lads, get a life. The only sensible comment on this whole thread questions the damage done to the quality of content on Indymedia. Indymedia is a valuable service, stop abusing it because some of you like the sound of your own voice.

by C Ó Brolcháin Thu Sep 08, 2005 12:39

This 'new group' sounds a lot like a southern version of the SEA in the north. Undoubtedly dominated by the SWP but with a few patsies to try to cover that fact up.

by Historian Thu Sep 08, 2005 13:21

the following link to Jim Higgins' wonderfu laccount of the SWP's history, and its internal regime, should be of interest to some of those following this thread. One wonders reading it what if anything has really changed. It is quite difficult to go through life without learning anything, but this seems to be one skill that the present leadership of the SWP have in abundance.

http://www.marxists.org/archive/higgins/1997/locust/index.htm

by D Thu Sep 08, 2005 15:12

Just popped in finally to say I really enjoyed the horse racing one, Classic simply classic.

Although on your last point while others may find it important to attempt to engage on such matters, {or indeed interesting to an extent that they are following the thread} others though may see it as bitching while you see it as damaging.

As stated, 'For me I say great, loads of view points, that's healthy' and Indymedia can embrace them all, to the benefit of Indymedia.

Finally historian thanks for the link {had not came accross it before}, I am presently downloading it to read this evening.

Signing of for good, and as for who won the race -well I can say that not for the first time in history that the 'WHIP' has won this particular one. D

by soc - non swp Thu Sep 08, 2005 19:12

how many ex swper's are there now, they must have an extraordinarlly high turnover membership wise.i mean i bet people like martin will in a few years time cringe at statements they make now(such as above), the swp have no substance, no policies no idea basically,they are forever destined to spend the rest of time as a fringe group alienating all the other fringe groups. its a shame because there are a handul of very competent people in the swp but their talents are wasted being in the swp.

btw i dont wish to come across as a troll but i realise my typed words will come across as such.

by Jim - swp Sun Sep 11, 2005 02:19

Yep you come across as a troll although sometimes trolls can be witty or add a new light on things, but not you soc. The old SWP ex'members party thing is a bit played out. Maybe if you discussed a new direction or alternative - it might seem credible of your intentions. As an swp member I'm quite suprised to see the attacks on the SWp in the run up to some event they're involved in. Although it's quite predictable. I'm writing this not to convince people but just It's not quite 'well they're doing this and we thought we might do this' it's more like 'shiiittt - stop the swp doing anything' . I've spent months mobilising for events and the arguments you get on here are funny because they say nothing about what most people say to me in work or on the street.
Therefore forums like this are a bit crap in taking things forward because they tend to 'bitch' about what the other (in this case SWp) left groups are doing. Why would the state not pay someone to spend time creating division? Maybe someone who writes something here is doing some good shit in another part of Ireland but perhaps not. I know in Belfast I've never come across anybody who writes here and walks the walk. It's just moan fucking moan. Ok I went to Edinburgh and the SWp helped organise the 3 busses of the convoy I was part of. If there's others who have done someit similar and want to put their greveance and alternative, then let's here who you are, what you did and what's you're alternative. If not - stop bleating.

by problem Sun Sep 11, 2005 03:24

that you keep fucking over everybody you meet, most people get on fine with you at first, then wallop you strike again, the sp are angry with you over the bin tax thing, half the IAWM split because of typical swp shenanigans, most of globalise resistance split from you and now even the campaign for a new party won't let you in. Did you ever once wonder why absolutely no one who knows you trusts you. (and most were pretty open minded when they meet you first, i know i was),
Bit of advice, stop the paper branch thing. You do it in every campaign, bin taxes and IAWM being the most famous, cause when people see a bunch of SWP "delegates" from phantom branches march in and give the party line (what used to be called packing a room). They know they've been had. We're not completely stupid.

by Jim - SWP Sun Sep 11, 2005 21:56

"If there's others who have done someit similar and want to put their greveance and alternative, then let's hear who you are, what you did and what's you're alternative. If not - stop bleating."

by D Mon Sep 12, 2005 15:06

'I know in Belfast I've never come across anybody who writes here and walks the walk'

Ach Jim, now that is quite an unfair comment to make about your comrades, given that leading comrades of the SWP in Belfast write and post here both under their own names and under others. I am sure that they would be a tad upset at that comment.

As for having did something, well I have did a tad of activism over the years - {drop me a line and I will provide links- but I sure you already know anyhows}

as for 'my' alternative, well that quite simply was to leave the SWP and with others continue that activism through other avenues, From Anti Poverty Rallies to Anti Racism rallies, and much more, it continues.

Good to see though that SWP leading members have now moved to stating you had 'helped organise' three buses from saying that the buses where all your supporters!

by MV Wed Sep 14, 2005 16:16

Ok I went to Edinburgh and the SWp helped organise the 3 busses of the convoy I was part of. If there's others who have done someit similar and want to put their greveance and alternative, then let's here who you are, what you did and what's you're alternative. If not - stop bleating.

Funny how the SWP helped organise (or did they really) buses to the MakepovertyHistory Rally in Scotland after all there bitching about the campaign here. Double Standards possibly or a cynical recruiting excercise?

Heres a straight question for you Jim.
When did the SWP initiate a campaign by themselves recently instead of jumping on a bandwagon, hijacking, claiming ownership and ultimately destroying?

with wespect,
Masters Voice

by pearson68 - socialist worker Wed Sep 14, 2005 19:03

MV

There was only one bus that left Dublin.

There were also people from Belfast staying on the campsite, they came by bus too. But there was no 'convoy'.

MV..I need to verify if you were on that bus so:

1where in Scotland was it stopped by the police ?

2 How many times were we stopped by the police?

3 what time did the bus leave Dublin?

Also, everybody on the campsite and bus was very fraternal towards one another, which isn't reflected by some of the postings here.

Someone's not telling the full story..

Give up the negativity.

We're not asking for your adoration

Mark

by MV Wed Sep 14, 2005 20:14

MV..I need to verify if you were on that bus so:

Are you mad!
I wouldnae travel on a arswippy bus! Im getting too old for a paper round!
Although by all accounts they werent really SWP buses, more people who genuinely wanted to be at Edinburgh to register their protest at the events unfolding there...
From what I hear the Belfast SWP would have difficulties filling an ordinary car with members

p.s I was quoting from your erstwhile comrade Jim in the first paragraph

There was only one bus that left Dublin.

Really, only one solitary bus from Dublin?

There were also people from Belfast staying on the campsite, they came by bus too. But there was no 'convoy'.

Whoah there...Im thinking you are getting stuck in some 80s CB timewarp there.. who mentioned convoy



1where in Scotland was it stopped by the police ?
dunno but would be interested to hear

2 How many times were we stopped by the police?
dunno and ditto

3 what time did the bus leave Dublin?
ah come on now what is this Special Branch!

Also, everybody on the campsite and bus was very fraternal towards one another, which isn't reflected by some of the postings here.
Aw Bless! Are the big Boys teasing you....

Someone's not telling the full story..
Agreed

Give up the negativity.
Thats a big 10 4 boss

We're not asking for your adoration
awhhhh me wanna join a cult so badly... let me worship at your altar of revolutionary righteousness...

Mark
So can ya answer me original question then since I had the decency to answer in full your piercing questioning regarding initiating or organising anything worthwhile recently

with wespect,
Masters Voice

by pearson68 - Socialist Worker Wed Sep 14, 2005 20:47

MV

It's not a question; you've already answered it by your own negativity e.g: ". jumping on a bandwagon, hijacking, claiming ownership and ultimately destroying?"

So I can't answer you until you replace the negativity with some honesty...Doesn't look to me like you'd really listen to/read what I say. Your instinct is to attack.

You have a perfect right to sulk but don't kid yourself that it counts as a debating style.

and

"Ok I went to Edinburgh and the SWp helped organise the 3 busses of the convoy I was part of." quote from MV...A PREVIOUS POST ON THIS THREAD..see above!

You mentioned the convoy...so did you travel on the convoy that you were "part of" or not?

How many buses were on your "convoy"

Stay Left

Mark

PS. could someone inform me as to whether or not this "MV" person is a troll or not.

Regards

Pearson68

by MV Wed Sep 14, 2005 21:19

"It's not a question......."

O.K I will try once more again for the hard of thinking!

Question: Can you please name me a campaign or protest that the Socialist Workers Party has initiated or organised recently.

and

"Ok I went to Edinburgh and the SWp helped organise the 3 busses of the convoy I was part of." quote from MV...A PREVIOUS POST ON THIS THREAD..see above!

Doh!,
I refer to me previous answer mlud twas a postscript. regarding comrade Jim... Convoy isnt me phrase (try not to make it so easy)

You mentioned the convoy...so did you travel on the convoy that you were "part of" or not?

I travelled like most independently

How many buses were on your "convoy"
n/a

Stay Left
so butch and demanding!

Mark

PS. could someone inform me as to whether or not this "MV" person is a troll or not.

Hope not. Dont bandy big bad words about. I am on-topic as I am trying to elicit whether the SWP are full of fronts!

So in answer to my original question Mark?
with wespect,
Masters Voice

by pearson68 Wed Sep 14, 2005 21:49

yes I can

..picketting shell garages, the Shannon Demo and the Save Our Seafront demo in Dun Laoghaire this Sunday a@ 2pm.

And on the "convoy" point.. why didn't you use quotation marks...make your message a bit clearer.

In this age of mass media, clear communication counts, whatever medium you use... No need to attack me for the ambiguity.

So you travelled "independently" so did a lot of our members..going by plane worked out cheaper than getting the bus.

No-one comes on to this site to be abused. I'm only here trying to put the story straight with some facts. And I suppose because I believe that there are more people reading this topic than just "MV". Still sometimes you gotta take it on the chin... I suppose

Mark

by MV Wed Sep 14, 2005 22:11

yes I can

..picketting shell garages,
Im presuming this is part of the Shell to Sea Campaign, which I dont believe the SWP initiated nor organised

the Shannon Demo
The SWP track record on Shannon is well ropey. Do the words action and direct mean anything. The SWP are just a tad bit late by their presence in Shannon. What brightspark came up with the idea of..I know lets have a gig at shannon with those loveable donegal scamps the revs that will get Bush and Berty trembling.
The IAWM is a perfect example of those nasty tings I accused the swippys of earlier...hijacking etc etc...

and the Save Our Seafront demo in Dun Laoghaire this Sunday a@ 2pm.
not sure about this one...I hope you are right..it would help if at least one of your examples had some substance.

And on the "convoy" point.. why didn't you use quotation marks...make your message a bit clearer.

mea culpa

In this age of mass media, clear communication counts, whatever medium you use... No need to attack me for the ambiguity.

Thanks for the lesson sir, I will do better I swear!

So you travelled "independently" so did a lot of our members..going by plane worked out cheaper than getting the bus.

No-one comes on to this site to be abused.
Agreed

I'm only here trying to put the story straight with some facts.
Now that is open to debate....

And I suppose because I believe that there are more people reading this topic than just "MV".
True
Still sometimes you gotta take it on the chin... I suppose

well tis something you get used too....

with wespect,
Masters Voice

by KA Sun Dec 10, 2006 14:34

The SWP feel strong enough, and have managed to recruit Vincent McGrath to go to enough of their conferences and meetings, that they are no planning to take over the running of Shell to Sea activities in Dublin.

The have formally announced to the other groups and individuals who hae been working on the Shell to Sea campaign in Dublin that they have decided to cut all ties, and are going to organise a mass rally in February in the capital. They will it seems us ethe title People Before Profit and the Shell to Sea name when it suits.

Obviously this fits into their plan to make enough of an electoral splash in Dublin to have some hope of winning a seat or two on the council in 2009.

They have poisoned the atmosphere in the Rossport meetings, and have done their best to alienate the people in Mayo away from the people in Dublin. By launching attacks on Dublin, they convinced the people in Dublin Shell to Sea to take them on, and sure enough the group took the bait. The Mayo activists are seeing a squabble, with various letters being read out at meetings, representatives being sent, and counter statements issued. Of course they are appalled, and Shell and Fianna Fail are laughing.

The possibility of any concerted action by the left agains the the Corrib project is as good as dead, sacrificed on the altar of the SWP's electoral ambitions.