Civil Unions Bill launched

by different but equal Thu Dec 14, 2006 14:18

Civil Unions don't go far enough and are usually little more than 'separate but equal'

watch this youtube video from a New Jersey pro Gay Mariage campaign
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TrwAUV8Ofcc

by DM - Labour Youth Thu Dec 14, 2006 16:03

Labour Youth are for full marital rights, the party leader has also come out for it. However the party don't have a madate from the conference for full marital status yet (they passed civil union quite a while ago when it was considered very radical) Also the chances of it getting through the Dail now are pretty low (may require a referendum).
We should get something passed at the next party conference and hopeully Ireland will have progressed that bit further as well.

by Leon Thu Dec 14, 2006 16:55

Fine Gael won't support this. It is a waste of hot air.

by Michael Collins Thu Dec 14, 2006 17:15

FG support Civil Union as well. You should do some research rather than post comments which illustrate your ignorance on the issue.

by John Thu Dec 14, 2006 20:15

Its a bit rich for Labour to claim to be supporting childrens' rights. Ask any child what they want most. Above everthing else, above material wealth, they'll say that what they want most is for their mummy and daddy to stay together. Yet, Labour were foremost in bringing in divorce to Ireland (I should say I've no objection to divorce where there are no children). Labour continually agitates to make divorce as easy as possible. They want Ireland to go down the same route as the U.K and the U.S. where over half of all marriages end in divorce. We're still some way off that in Ireland, but rest assured Labour will strive mightily to make sure that we achieve the same rate of divorce in Ireland. When it comes to divorce laws, childrens' rights are thrown out the window and the only 'rights' considered are the 'rights' of one of the parents to dump the other parent ang go off with someone else, regardless of the trauma this causes in the children. So, if you want to make childrens' rights a priority over parents' rights, start there.

by Noel - Labour Party Thu Dec 14, 2006 20:27

Divorce allows a marriage that is already dead to die with dignity. It is not "forced" upon anyone. Get a grip!

by John Thu Dec 14, 2006 21:19

Its forced on the children, who have no say whatever in the matter, even though its the most traumatic thing imaginable for them. And its often forced on one of the parties to the marriage, who may not want the marriage to end. Feel free to advocate that anyone should be able to divorce their spouse as and when they feel like it, but don't then come along and say you have the slightest interest in childrens' rights. Labour's real agenda is not the welfare of children but the destruction of the Family, and derives from the well-founded belief that the destruction of the Family leads to a huge increase in the number of people depending on the State. Thankfully, Labour are at rock bottom in the polls and will stay there.

by brando Thu Dec 14, 2006 23:52

Somehow, i have a hard time imagining that Labour has the ultimate plan of ruining peoples marriges.

by Noel - Labour Party Fri Dec 15, 2006 10:32

"Labour's real agenda is not the welfare of children but the destruction of the Family, and derives from the well-founded belief that the destruction of the Family leads to a huge increase in the number of people depending on the State. "

Give us a break, John. Your paronoia is getting ridiculous. Divorce can't happen on a whim in ireland, you need to be apart for four years. You'd swear it was some kind of mad new idea, instead of something that has been around for centuries.

I suppose you think that people should be forced to stay in abusive relationships rather than get a divorce and have a chance to start over. Maybe that guy from Sligo who was convicted for raping his wife last month was the real victim, eh?

Anyhow, Divorce was carried in a referendum. It was the people's choice.

by John Fri Dec 15, 2006 13:14

The vast majority of divorces do not occur because one of the parties is being abused, but simply because one of the parties finds himself/herself bored with the marriage and often more attracted to someone else. If divorce was restricted to situations where one of the parties was being abused, only a few per cent of marriages would end in divorce. Most people could go along with that. But, in the most 'progressive' countries (Nordic countries, the U.K, the Netherlands etc) over half of all marriages now end in divorce. Is that what you want for Ireland? Don't tell me all these involved abusive relationships? Are you totally blind to the social consequences of such a level of family breakdown? Its no co-incidence the northern European countries which secularised first and have the highest divorce rates also have the highest crime rates. Countries which held out against the secular tide the longest and which still have the lowest rates of divorce (mainly southern European countries) have the lowest crime rates. Ireland is well on the way to transition from the latter to the former, thanks in no small part to the efforts of the Labour Party.

by John Eile Fri Dec 15, 2006 14:49

You are not seriously suggesting that Nordic Countries have a higher crime rate per capita than Ireland are you?

Get thee to thy priest at once and have confession for tellin porkies.

The problem with right wingers like John is that the left have a successful socialist models in the Nordic countries to demonstrate social democracy in action and its benefits to society at large.
So they surreptitiously try to attack them with puerile claims like that.

Shame.

by John Sun Dec 17, 2006 14:14

Absolutely they do. It would be useful if the leftists checked their facts occasionally. Nordic countries have among the highest crime rates in the world. International comparisons of crime rates in different countries are given in UN Crime Surveys. The Seventh UN Crime Survey covers the years 1998 to 2000. It gives the following figures for the total number of all crimes per 100,000 inhabitants in 1999:

Ireland 2166.15
Finland 9866.50
Denmark 9291.30
Norway 7083.50

It doesn't give any figure for Sweden. But, I'd imagine Sweden would be pretty similar to Norway.

Those are the most recent figures I could find. I'm sure that when figures are updated to 2005/06, they'll show the crime rate in Ireland up to around 2400.00 approximately per 100,000 inhabitants, a lot higher than back in the 1960s when Ireland had 95 per Church attendance, but still much lower than the almost wholly secular Nordic countries. Though I have no doubt that if the Left achieves its ambition of secularsing Ireland to the same level as in Nordic-land and bringing our Church attendance down to the 2%-3% level it is there, we'll have the same levels of crime as they do.

If past experience here is anything to go by, I have no doubt some will come on here saying I'm making these figures up. So, to all doubters I say: just type 'un seventh crime survey' in your google and you'll find it.

Leftists are always babbling about how successful the Nordic economic and social model is. If they'd actually check their facts, they'd find that, like the parson's egg, the Nordic model is only good in parts. I'll agree that Sweden has a good health record, with mortality rates below Ireland and life expectancy higher than Ireland, although Ireland is rapidly cutting the gap. But, Denmark's health record is atrocious and its mortality rates are now about 10 per cent higher than Ireland's and life expectancy about a year lower than Ireland. While Finland is now about the same as Ireland for both mortality rates and life expectancy. On education, I'll agree that Finland performs better than Ireland in international surveys (mainly PISA), but Sweden, Norway and Denmark performed much worse than Ireland in the most recent PISA surveys. All four Nordic countries have higher suicide rates than Ireland. Finland's suicide and homicide rates in particular are by far the highest in western Europe, almost twice as high as in Ireland. Sweden, Denmark and Finland all have higher unemployment rates than Ireland. So, stop going on about the Nordic countries as if they were utopia. It reminds me too much about how leftists in Ireland used to babble back in the 70s and 80s about how successful the Romanian and Bulgarian economic and social models were.

by SteveMD2 Mon Dec 31, 2007 07:47

It appears that Ireland is about to join all of western Europe, (except Italy and Greece), along with Canada, Israel, Repub. of South Africa, New Zealand, Uraguay, and parts of Mexico and Agentina in granting gay people legal rights similar to marriage.

It is an idea whose time has come. Here in the USA, where only about 6 states grant some or all legal rights of marriage to gay people, the institution of marriage is failing and Straight people are the culprits. Gay people want to join the institution and support it, but run into irrational religious arguments. Why - simple, because when people see gay people being treated fairly under the law, learn that they are ordinary good people with the same hopes, dreams, and aspirations as everyone else, the backwardness of the church will be exposed. And when the people see how the church has literally lied to them in the name of God, the whole house of cards of the church will come tumbling down, and the pews will be filled not with people, but with dust. So of course, to protect it's power and finances - that is all it is about, not "the family" , the church raises holy hell.

This is an issue of moral and legal fairness. Call it plain ordinary decency. The opposition to gay marriage or civil unions reminds me of the 40 year mini-war in Northern Ireland. To most of us here in the USA, it is inconceivable that Protestant and Catholics would so hate each other, but the historical record shows all kinds of hate and hypocrisy in the Name of God.. Witness the American Civil war to free the slaves from America's greatest crime, and how that slavery was replaced by segregation - the isolation and disenfranchisement politically, economically, and socially of Black people for another 100 years after the abolition of slavery. And those who most supported these outrages were the most conservative good Christian religious people, tthe Southern Baptists, who also seem to take pages from Islam, eg stating that the woman in marriage is to be subservient to the husband. And it is the same religious type people who fought against women voting and legally allowing racial intermarriage. Isn't the real question to be asked - why do they always have to have someone to hate, while at the same time God must weep for the state of his creation.

So, it is all about lies, hypocrisy, and hiding from people the past lies of the church. The only questions are when gay people will be treated like equals in our society, not whether they will be treated as such, and whether the church finishes committing suicide upon it's alter of lies. Let us all pray for their enlightenment, and that they will return to the teachings of Jesus, including the inherent and equal worth of every individual.

by stay put Mon Dec 31, 2007 12:19

Only 6 states in the USA have civil partnership arrangements for gays because in most states where referenda were held on the issue the majority of voters turned down the concept of "gay marriage" on the grounds that different things are not equal. There is a groundswell of USA public opinion that feels that equality is not the same thing as sameness.

Opposition to "gay marriage" is opposition to the zeitgeist manipulation of language. Of course two gay people have a right to live peacefully together and should have mortgage, inheritance and other financial rights, but to insist on calling this marriage is to shove upside-down nomenclature down the public throat. This language tyranny is being resisted.

by AlloAlloAllo Mon Dec 31, 2007 17:59

john, are the crime rates reported anything to do with the piss poor detection rates here?

I'd bet that Most crime in ireland goes unreported because there is no point. Being mugged or broken into in dublin is just the norm. You just forget it and get on with your life. In sweden on the other hand, you are likely to have something done about it if you report it. Perhaps the rate is more a reflection of people's confidence in good policing?

I spent time in stockholm and felt much safer there than in dublin despite being a high risk tourist type.